Silly boy

A forum to discuss local issues in Scotland.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

Scots offered vote on breakaway next year - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Scots offered vote on breakaway next year


Two points,

One the SNP are not actually bluffing

Two they have said before during and after the last election they would hold a referendum in the latter half of the parliament if they got elected they will do so.

It's wonderful they are playing right in to the hands of the SNP Salmond probably fell off his chair laughing. This is such a blatant attempt to squash them it will backfire spectacularly if they try it. Most scots currently would probably vote for the third option - greater independence within the union rather than complete independence unless the tories do something like this. The last referendum (which was fiddled) I actually voted no mainly because a Scotland run by the labour mafia would have been a disaster. I would vote for a third option but given a stark choice imposed by Westminster most scots, myself included, will IMO vote yes just in protest at the sheer arrogance of it.

There is one tory MP in scotland, how big a hint does he need that the tories are not popular in scotland? Without Proportional representation they would have no MSP's either
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

Silly boy

Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1380777 wrote: Scots offered vote on breakaway next year - UK Politics - UK - The Independent



Two points,

One the SNP are not actually bluffing

Two they have said before during and after the last election they would hold a referendum in the latter half of the parliament if they got elected they will do so.

It's wonderful they are playing right in to the hands of the SNP Salmond probably fell off his chair laughing. This is such a blatant attempt to squash them it will backfire spectacularly if they try it. Most scots currently would probably vote for the third option - greater independence within the union rather than complete independence unless the tories do something like this. The last referendum (which was fiddled) I actually voted no mainly because a Scotland run by the labour mafia would have been a disaster. I would vote for a third option but given a stark choice imposed by Westminster most scots, myself included, will IMO vote yes just in protest at the sheer arrogance of it.

There is one tory MP in scotland, how big a hint does he need that the tories are not popular in scotland? Without Proportional representation they would have no MSP's either


As soon as I saw Cameron's pronouncement I saw red rags waving in the breeze. Could it be deliberate? If Scotland goes Labour loose more MPs than he does and he just short sighted (and dumb) enough to be excited by that.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

Bryn Mawr;1380782 wrote: As soon as I saw Cameron's pronouncement I saw red rags waving in the breeze. Could it be deliberate? If Scotland goes Labour loose more MPs than he does and he just short sighted (and dumb) enough to be excited by that.


I don't know and it is only my opinion but I think they really do not understand just how hostile most scots are to government by a party we didn't vote for and having policies forced on us we are hostile to and to our detriment most especially as a result of thatcher and the tories and it would be fair to say new labour are now seen in much the same light which is something the scottish labour party is beginning to understand and are trying to distance themselves from the Westminster party and being perceived as nodding dogs to a new labour tune - Scotland is not so much pro labour as anti-conservative His "offering" to hold a referendum like it was a wee sweetie to keep us quiet is like a red rag to a bull. we don't need his permission If we decide we want independence the only remaining question is the detail of how it is done. The prospect scares the **** out of Westminster, the notion we are all benefit junkies and subsidised by england is nonsense otherwise they would be happy to see us go. Especially with all the new oil fields off shetland and the north east coast, losing that revenue stream frightens them.

It seems to me he thinks he only has to contend with the SNP and alex salmond and doesn't get the significance of the size of their majority at the last Scottish election. If they insist on this referendum and then the snp hold another one when they have said they will the odds are people will hang fire for the "real" one and largely abstain for the first one - except perhaps for those that want to keep the union . It doesn't have to be yes or no and most of us are bright enough to know that. He's a public schoolboy who has never had a real job, he probably thinks we are all illiterate peasants who just need a guiding hand.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Silly boy

Post by Oscar Namechange »

I can't see the point of Salmond holding off a referendum for 18 months for It to co-Incide with the anniversary of Robert The Bruce. I see It as tactics.... people will feel far more patriotic at the timing and boost votes possibly.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

oscar;1380814 wrote: I can't see the point of Salmond holding off a referendum for 18 months for It to co-Incide with the anniversary of Robert The Bruce. I see It as tactics.... people will feel far more patriotic at the timing and boost votes possibly.


Scots are ever so slightly cynical and are hardly more likely to vote yes just because it is the seven hundredth anniversary of Bannockburn. On the other hand a tory lead government trying the put up or shut up approach really reminds people of some of the reasons for the animosity towards the tories.
Gentle Brother
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:46 am

Silly boy

Post by Gentle Brother »

Indeed, without Labour's Scottish MPs the Conservatives would win every election.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Silly boy

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Gentle Brother;1380880 wrote: Indeed, without Labour's Scottish MPs the Conservatives would win every election.


I'm all In favour of anything that stops a Labour Government
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Silly boy

Post by Clodhopper »

Well, cheerio. I expect Salmond to have the referendum at a time that suits him best, framed in terms that split any unionist vote, with lots of kids voting. The result is a foregone conclusion. Just as long as they take their share of the debt by percentage of population, I'm past caring any more.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1380896 wrote: Well, cheerio. I expect Salmond to have the referendum at a time that suits him best, framed in terms that split any unionist vote, with lots of kids voting. The result is a foregone conclusion. Just as long as they take their share of the debt by percentage of population, I'm past caring any more.


No problem so long as there is no argument about our keeping our share of the income - no sneaky re-drawing of the border

Scottish Conspiracies Political Injustices Scotlands History Mc Crone GERS Report Indpendence Devolution Referendum 1979 2005 Trident

The majority of scots want either complete independence or greater devolution within the union those who want to retain the status quo are in the minority.

Cameron has handed the right wing of his party a club to beat him with, if he will force the scots to a referendum why will he not let the british people have a referendum on staying in europe? Salmond proposed a consultative referendum that wasn't legally binding but would lead on to further discussion. Thatcher did more than anyone else to help the SNP now it looks like cameron will hand them victory.

I have every confidence england will be able to survive on it's own with help from the welsh and northern irish it seems to be westminster that worries at the prospect.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Silly boy

Post by Clodhopper »

No problem so long as there is no argument about our keeping our share of the income - no sneaky re-drawing of the border


Which border? I assume the one at the time of Union?

If so, I say you get the oil, we get the gas - which is what you get if the border is drawn east/west from the current one.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Silly boy

Post by Clodhopper »

I am not going to rise to the linked bait without some context. :) But I'd watch it if you are reading Nationalist material. I've found it is usually twisted.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1381289 wrote: Which border? I assume the one at the time of Union?

If so, I say you get the oil, we get the gas - which is what you get if the border is drawn east/west from the current one.


The marine borders that were in place in 1999; If we were all part of the same union what was the reason for shifting them if it were not to prevent a future independent Scotland laying claim to them. There are international laws governing such things.

Also I suggest you look more closely at that link. The reports referenced are not written by the SNP.

http://www.oilofscotland.org/mccronereport.pdf

The above was written in 1975 and kept secret under the 30 year rule. There is plenty of other material around if you can be bothered looking in to it. I'm not offended if you don't but the image being out about abput benefit junkie scots wanting to bugger off with all the oil is rather far from the truth. You have to ask yourself if the scots are such a liability why does westminster want to prevent them being independent.

I would also add in the 1979 referendum I voted no. This time I will probably vote yes because the tories and new labour have had thirty years to make the case far better than the SNP ever could. Cameron is fighting the battle for them now as are his coalition partners. Bye Bye lib dems in scotland, labour will probably hang on but they will have to cut the puppet strings from down south or at least show some spirit.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

Looks like the english are terrified of being left to run their own countries without the scots and welsh to help them and will do anything to prevent Scottish independence including asking the question in such a way we give the right answer. The last time there was a referendum - which resulted in a yes vote - they changed the rules to completely negate the result. There is a definite note of panic in some of the reporting yet no one seems able to put a case for remaining in the union or even decide who should lead the campaign, it's all based on negatives if we should deicide to leave none of which last more than two minutes under scrutiny.

Alex Salmond's question over independence gives poll boost to Scottish leader - Telegraph
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Silly boy

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Is It just me or does anyone else think that the more Salmond throws his toys out of the pram, the more like Nick Griffin he sounds ?



Salmond has already claimed that, If Scotland were to gain independence from the UK, they would wish to keep Stirling as their currency. Economically, this would mean that their monetary policy would still be tightly controlled by the Bank of England.

A lack for economic autonomy proved to be the downfall of Irish, Greek and Portuguese economies over the last few years and Scotland would put themselves In a similar situation If they were to follow this route. The other monetary alternative would be to join the Eurozone, meaning that Scotland would adopt the debt of many eurozone countries and be obligated to contribute to Greek recovery.

Scottish Interests are protected by the British armed forces, Independence would mean funding an entirely new defence programme, as well as a network of foreign ambassadors In every country In the world.

It would also mean that Scotland would have to decide what it plans to do with Its borders. If it chooses to sign up to the Schengen Agreement in Europe, Its borders will be open to the 25 European countries for free movement and Immigration.

If It does not sign up to the Schengen agreement It will find itself isolated from the single market. Scots crossing their southern borders would require passport Identification if Scotland were to achieve Independence, due to the UK’s opt out from the Schengen agreement in 1995.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

Silly boy

Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1382517 wrote: Is It just me or does anyone else think that the more Salmond throws his toys out of the pram, the more like Nick Griffin he sounds ?



Salmond has already claimed that, If Scotland were to gain independence from the UK, they would wish to keep Stirling as their currency. Economically, this would mean that their monetary policy would still be tightly controlled by the Bank of England.

A lack for economic autonomy proved to be the downfall of Irish, Greek and Portuguese economies over the last few years and Scotland would put themselves In a similar situation If they were to follow this route. The other monetary alternative would be to join the Eurozone, meaning that Scotland would adopt the debt of many eurozone countries and be obligated to contribute to Greek recovery.

Scottish Interests are protected by the British armed forces, Independence would mean funding an entirely new defence programme, as well as a network of foreign ambassadors In every country In the world.

It would also mean that Scotland would have to decide what it plans to do with Its borders. If it chooses to sign up to the Schengen Agreement in Europe, Its borders will be open to the 25 European countries for free movement and Immigration.

If It does not sign up to the Schengen agreement It will find itself isolated from the single market. Scots crossing their southern borders would require passport Identification if Scotland were to achieve Independence, due to the UK’s opt out from the Schengen agreement in 1995.


How's that again - would you care to talk me through that one?
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

oscar;1382517 wrote: Is It just me or does anyone else think that the more Salmond throws his toys out of the pram, the more like Nick Griffin he sounds ?



Salmond has already claimed that, If Scotland were to gain independence from the UK, they would wish to keep Stirling as their currency. Economically, this would mean that their monetary policy would still be tightly controlled by the Bank of England.

A lack for economic autonomy proved to be the downfall of Irish, Greek and Portuguese economies over the last few years and Scotland would put themselves In a similar situation If they were to follow this route. The other monetary alternative would be to join the Eurozone, meaning that Scotland would adopt the debt of many eurozone countries and be obligated to contribute to Greek recovery.

Scottish Interests are protected by the British armed forces, Independence would mean funding an entirely new defence programme, as well as a network of foreign ambassadors In every country In the world.

It would also mean that Scotland would have to decide what it plans to do with Its borders. If it chooses to sign up to the Schengen Agreement in Europe, Its borders will be open to the 25 European countries for free movement and Immigration.

If It does not sign up to the Schengen agreement It will find itself isolated from the single market. Scots crossing their southern borders would require passport Identification if Scotland were to achieve Independence, due to the UK’s opt out from the Schengen agreement in 1995.


It's just you.

Those are some of the issues being brought up by those who would oppose independence but are incapable of coming up with any reason why it would be beneficial for us to remain in it. You also seem to forget the right wing of the tory party are all for leaving the EU for the sake of maintaining their independence from Brussels. Keeping sterling? well if Westminster want to be so petty I dare say we could work something out, you never know we might need border controls to keep out the english fleeing from a tory dominated England with their private medical care and fee paying schools and further education establishments.

You have got to read something else apart from the daily mail.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Silly boy

Post by Oscar Namechange »

gmc;1382614 wrote: It's just you.

Those are some of the issues being brought up by those who would oppose independence but are incapable of coming up with any reason why it would be beneficial for us to remain in it. You also seem to forget the right wing of the tory party are all for leaving the EU for the sake of maintaining their independence from Brussels. Keeping sterling? well if Westminster want to be so petty I dare say we could work something out, you never know we might need border controls to keep out the english fleeing from a tory dominated England with their private medical care and fee paying schools and further education establishments.

You have got to read something else apart from the daily mail.


Put It this way then Auld TYin......

If you keep Stirling, you will still be ruled by The Bank Of England. If you adopt the Euro, you bail out the countries.... which is It ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Silly boy

Post by gmc »

oscar;1382616 wrote: Put It this way then Auld TYin......

If you keep Stirling, you will still be ruled by The Bank Of England. If you adopt the Euro, you bail out the countries.... which is It ?


Stirling is a big lump of rock with a castle on top of it. Of course we are going to keep it.

The Bank of England was started by a scotsman William Paterson who was also partly to blame for the darien scheme which bankrupted scotland and helped lead to the union in 1707 thus demonstrating that listening to bankers and their clever ideas has not always been for the best even in the past.

It's a red herring put about by those terrified of the prospect of scottish independence and how it would further expose the weakness of the english economy under tory rule. England could do with it'sd own parliament - tell me is it right that Scottish MP's should be voting on laws that only affect England? All the labour health and education reforms needed Scottish votes to get them past IMO that is just flat out wrong. The UK is a union of four different nations, we still have a very real sense of our own distinctiveness (and better education system which is why i can spell sterling and you can't)and much to be proud of quite frankly all cameron and his toadies are doing is making the case for independence.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Silly boy

Post by Oscar Namechange »

gmc;1382791 wrote: Stirling is a big lump of rock with a castle on top of it. Of course we are going to keep it.

The Bank of England was started by a scotsman William Paterson who was also partly to blame for the darien scheme which bankrupted scotland and helped lead to the union in 1707 thus demonstrating that listening to bankers and their clever ideas has not always been for the best even in the past.

It's a red herring put about by those terrified of the prospect of scottish independence and how it would further expose the weakness of the english economy under tory rule. England could do with it'sd own parliament - tell me is it right that Scottish MP's should be voting on laws that only affect England? All the labour health and education reforms needed Scottish votes to get them past IMO that is just flat out wrong. The UK is a union of four different nations, we still have a very real sense of our own distinctiveness (and better education system which is why i can spell sterling and you can't)and much to be proud of quite frankly all cameron and his toadies are doing is making the case for independence.


And why I know where to use capital letters and you don't. :rolleyes:

You are assuming I am against an Indendant Scotland....
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

Silly boy

Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1382616 wrote: Put It this way then Auld TYin......

If you keep Stirling, you will still be ruled by The Bank Of England. If you adopt the Euro, you bail out the countries.... which is It ?


How's about explaining your zany economic theories - soundbytes do not make truth and yours do not make sense.

Within the EU the ECB sets the interest rate, no more. The EC Commissioners set gross indirect tax policy but have no control over direct taxation or indirect tax rates. Each country sets their own foreign policy and controls their own employment law and public sector pay policy - it is perfectly possible to be within the EU and have you own fiscal policy or to adopt the Euro and still have control over you economy.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

Silly boy

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1382815 wrote: How's about explaining your zany economic theories - soundbytes do not make truth and yours do not make sense.

Within the EU the ECB sets the interest rate, no more. The EC Commissioners set gross indirect tax policy but have no control over direct taxation or indirect tax rates. Each country sets their own foreign policy and controls their own employment law and public sector pay policy - it is perfectly possible to be within the EU and have you own fiscal policy or to adopt the Euro and still have control over you economy.
I am not avoiding the Issue... I need to do some more reading.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon

Return to “Scotland”