Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

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buttercup
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by buttercup »

Seen a facinating documentary whilst on holiday this week that raised a question. Why does there seem to be such a residue of hatred in the people of Clan Macdonald for Clan Campbell still?

Much focuses on the terrible massacre of Glencoe which has been sold to some of the few more gullible members of Clan Donald as Campbell clan revenge, a total misconception. The massacre was entirely planned in London and Edinburgh and was solely an operation of the British army. In no way whatsoever can it truthfully be called a "clan" event. The only Campbell member was in fact the sergeant.

The government troops in Glencoe have been blamed for turning upon their hosts and committing 'slaughter under trust'. The troops had not been invited into Clan Donald homes in Glencoe at all, but were forcibly billeted upon them as punishment for failure to pay taxes. The threats made against their commander by his superiors in the orders delivered to him short hours before the killings were severe in the extreme. If he failed to order the killings he would be accused of treason for which the punishment was death. In fact the only reason that he was in the army and therefore there at all was because he had recently been bankrupted by the Glencoe men stealing his cattle and his family were destitute.

Those who try so hard to make out that the massacre was a "clan" event are obliged to gloss over the fact that many of the MacDonalds escaped over the passes onto Campbell lands in Glen Etive where they were succoured by their kinsfolk there. The government piper who played a well-known Campbell tune of warning before the massacre is seldom given credit. In fact the massacre was so badly conducted that less then forty of the near three hundred people were killed, a clear indication of the unwillingness of the Highlander among the troops to kill his neighbours. So why the hatred?
gmc
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by gmc »

buttercup;469418 wrote: Seen a facinating documentary whilst on holiday this week that raised a question. Why does there seem to be such a residue of hatred in the people of Clan Macdonald for Clan Campbell still?

Much focuses on the terrible massacre of Glencoe which has been sold to some of the few more gullible members of Clan Donald as Campbell clan revenge, a total misconception. The massacre was entirely planned in London and Edinburgh and was solely an operation of the British army. In no way whatsoever can it truthfully be called a "clan" event. The only Campbell member was in fact the sergeant.

The government troops in Glencoe have been blamed for turning upon their hosts and committing 'slaughter under trust'. The troops had not been invited into Clan Donald homes in Glencoe at all, but were forcibly billeted upon them as punishment for failure to pay taxes. The threats made against their commander by his superiors in the orders delivered to him short hours before the killings were severe in the extreme. If he failed to order the killings he would be accused of treason for which the punishment was death. In fact the only reason that he was in the army and therefore there at all was because he had recently been bankrupted by the Glencoe men stealing his cattle and his family were destitute.

Those who try so hard to make out that the massacre was a "clan" event are obliged to gloss over the fact that many of the MacDonalds escaped over the passes onto Campbell lands in Glen Etive where they were succoured by their kinsfolk there. The government piper who played a well-known Campbell tune of warning before the massacre is seldom given credit. In fact the massacre was so badly conducted that less then forty of the near three hundred people were killed, a clear indication of the unwillingness of the Highlander among the troops to kill his neighbours. So why the hatred?



Why do you think there is any real hatred nowadays? I've yet to meet any MacDonald that takes it seriously-although it gets played up for ther tourists.
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buttercup
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by buttercup »

Hi gmc, havent seen you for ages :D

Do you live in the highlands? I can only go by what the documentary was saying as personally i only know one macdonald so thats not much use. Anyway in the documentary the locals were saying that they still look suspiciously & frown upon Campbells in the area
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Galbally
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by Galbally »

I read John Prebbles book on Glencoe and its a great read, and I've been up there as well, beautiful majestic place. I'm not a Scot so I don't really have much idea how seriously these things are viewed anymore, but I would suspect that its mostly just a ritual thing now, and has just remained one of those infamous things in history that gets remembered, like Cromwells sacking of Drogheda in Ireland in the 1650s or the St Bartholmews day massacre in Paris. It is certainly a place I'd like to do some hillwalking in, I was up on Goatsfell on Arran and that was spectacular, you could see Antrim from there as it was a clear day, bitch of a walk though.
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gmc
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by gmc »

buttercup;469489 wrote: Hi gmc, havent seen you for ages :D

Do you live in the highlands? I can only go by what the documentary was saying as personally i only know one macdonald so thats not much use. Anyway in the documentary the locals were saying that they still look suspiciously & frown upon Campbells in the area



No but I go up there quite often and know Glencoe well. Bidian nam dian is one of my favourite walks, it's the kind os hillwalking area that is different every time you go up.

They would just be joking. It's good hype for the tourists. It's a mecca for climbers the world over but if you are not in to that

I was up on Goatsfell on Arran and that was spectacular, you could see Antrim from there as it was a clear day, bitch of a walk though.




If you're up again go in to the hidden valley, It's an easy walk and spectacular-you are walking in to a huge caldera. Big clue, you can't see it from the road- the number of people that think you can never ceases to amuse me.

http://www.b-mercer.demon.co.uk/glenc.htm

http://ccgi.mountaineer.plus.com/scotland-mountains/glencoe/coe.shtml

No pictures of my own but I'm eyeing up a digital camera. My ancient slr still works and replacing somethimng that functions doesn't seem right somehow.
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Bill Sikes
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by Bill Sikes »

buttercup;469418 wrote: Seen a facinating documentary whilst on holiday this week that raised a question. Why does there seem to be such a residue of hatred in the people of Clan Macdonald for Clan Campbell still?

Much focuses on the terrible massacre of Glencoe which has been sold to some of the few more gullible members of Clan Donald as Campbell clan revenge, a total misconception. The massacre was entirely planned in London and Edinburgh and was solely an operation of the British army. In no way whatsoever can it truthfully be called a "clan" event. The only Campbell member was in fact the sergeant.

The government troops in Glencoe have been blamed for turning upon their hosts and committing 'slaughter under trust'. The troops had not been invited into Clan Donald homes in Glencoe at all, but were forcibly billeted upon them as punishment for failure to pay taxes. The threats made against their commander by his superiors in the orders delivered to him short hours before the killings were severe in the extreme. If he failed to order the killings he would be accused of treason for which the punishment was death. In fact the only reason that he was in the army and therefore there at all was because he had recently been bankrupted by the Glencoe men stealing his cattle and his family were destitute.

Those who try so hard to make out that the massacre was a "clan" event are obliged to gloss over the fact that many of the MacDonalds escaped over the passes onto Campbell lands in Glen Etive where they were succoured by their kinsfolk there. The government piper who played a well-known Campbell tune of warning before the massacre is seldom given credit. In fact the massacre was so badly conducted that less then forty of the near three hundred people were killed, a clear indication of the unwillingness of the Highlander among the troops to kill his neighbours. So why the hatred?



Potted: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/union/trails_union_glencoe.shtml

Is (rather unromantic) that reference far wrong?

Why any sort of feuding survives today is beyond me. It seems rather babyish -

completely different people, over 300 years later, bearing grudges.
gmc
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by gmc »

ArnoldLayne;470078 wrote: I spent a couple of weeks in Glencoe some 30 years ago climbing some of the peaks. Pap of Glencoe, (is there one called the two sisters or something) and of course Ben Nevis herself. Fabulous !

I was a fit soldier then though. Too much extra baggage to do it now, like this extra Bergen I wear at the front :D



The three sisters of glencoe. I'm a three hour drive away all this is putting me in the notion to go up again.

posted by bill sikes

Why any sort of feuding survives today is beyond me. It seems rather babyish -

completely different people, over 300 years later, bearing grudges.



It doesn't really but the tourists like it. It's like the war of the roses is the feud beween yorkshire and lancashire still going on?

The bit about the clahaig is true but being a campbell won't get you barred.

Sectarianism is a more potent legacy of the period than any imagined feud.
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

buttercup your history is so flawed ,well ,it could have been written by an embarrased campbell himself. the order of the massacre was sanctioned by the king in writing(the letter still exists today). with much involvement of lord stair- sir john dalrymple, secretary of state for scotland.campbell of breadelbane was on hand to advise on tactics with his special knowledge of the area. between these three principle characters the plans were laid for the massacre and at the centre of these discussions we find the kings man in the region cambell of breadelbane.from this meeting the kings letter to the commander in chief of scotland reads;- quote:- it will be proper vindication of public justice to exterpate that sect of thiefs. (the macdonalds). a copy of this letter was sent to colonel hill in command at fort william but with an additional letter added by stair stating that; - quote;- the earls of argyll(a campbell)and breadelbane (also a campbell) have promised that they would seal off the passes of rannoch, glen etive and glen dochart and all possible ways to the south over campbell lands. this alone proves that they were complicit in the massacre. next major duncanson with drummonds company of argylls sealed off the road to appin. lt. hamilton would hold the pass at the head of the glen (weather providing). on 1st feb.a company of argyll with a good helping of a malitia made up of campbell highlanders entered glencoe. at their head was robert campbell laird of glen lyon. they presented macIain(chief of glencoe macdonalds)with billeting orders for his men as the castle of inverlochy was full plus they had come to collect arrears of tax.here we can now fast forward to the 12th of feb. when campbell of glenlyon receives his final orders ; quote;- to kill all macdonalds under the age of 70.

the rest as they say is history. two other points;-robert campbell could have disobeyed the orders, the most he would have suffered would have been the removal of his commission as happened to other officers who refused to kill in cold blood at glencoe

yes 38 macdonalds died in the glen but there is no record of how many men women and children, most in their bed clothes died of exposure in the snow blizzard high in the mountains.

the real truth today is that all the natives of glencoe dispise what the campbells did, yes their had always been fueds and people where killed. what set this apart was because the campbell broke bread with the macdonalds , they gave them hospitality and shelter in atrocious weather.after nearly two weeks they then set about their hosts killing men, women and children in cold blood. that is why it is still reviled in the highlands today because it broke the unwritten highland rule - MURDER UNDER TRUST. they were my people and that act , i can assure you will NEVER be forgotten.
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buttercup
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by buttercup »

Welcome to forum garden Ned...... & gmc - there ya go, told you so, nah, nah, nah nah, nah :p
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Chookie
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by Chookie »

ned coed;477473 wrote: buttercup your history is so flawed...........MURDER UNDER TRUST. they were my people and that act.........will never be forgotten.



This is bullshit. As a Domnallach with a deep and abiding interest in history,

I can categorically assure you that this incident had very little to do with the Campbells! This might seem like blasphemy to a hell of a lot of people but the Massacre of Glencoe was not carried out by the Campbells - it was committed by the British Army!!

Had it been a simple case of a disagreement betwen clans there would not have been a massacre - there would have been glorified punch-up, then a party much like a present-day wedding!

Also, there would have been no need or reason for King Billy, (William III to the English and the supporters of the House of Orange), to sign the order for the massacre - not once but twice.

Yes, before you say it, I do know that there was a significant number of Campbells amongst the redcoats. This would be because the regiment in question - The Campbell Fencibles - was raised in territory controlled by the Clan Campbell. But that territory did not lie in the heartland of th Campbells. The regiment was raised around Luss and Balmaha in reaction to the campaigns of Claverhouse (aka "Bonnie Dundee" or "Bluidy Clavers" - depending whose side yoou were on!).

WillamIII had blood on his hands with regard to the events at 5am on Saturday the 13th of Febuary 1692 but at least one other had even more blood on his hands,Sir John Dalrymple the Master of Stair (Secrtary of State of Scotland) the governments man in Scotland.The order for the massacre was given to Lieutenant-Colonel Hamilton on the instructions of Dalyrymple on the 12th of Febuary and it read..

"Sir,you are hereby ordered to fall upon the rebels,the M'Donalds,of Glencoe and putt all to the sword under seventy.You are to have special care that the old fox and his sons doe upon no account escape your hands.You are to secure all the avenues,that no man may escape.This you are to putt in execution at five o'clock in the morning preciesly,and by that time,or very shortly after it,i'll strive to be att you with a stronger party.If i doe not come to you att five,you are no to tarry for me,but to fall on.This is by the King's special command,for the good of the country,that these miscreants be cutt off root and branch.See that this be putt in execution without feud or favour,else you may expect to be treated as not true to the King's government,nor a man fitt to carry a commission in the King's service.Expecting you will not fail in the fulfilling herof as you love yourself,I subscribe these with my hand."
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buttercup
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by buttercup »

oh gawd, another of my threads heading for the tar pit :-3

gmc - you know i was just pulling your leg right :-4
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

to summarise- a campbell gave advise to set the plan. two other campbells closed all possible escape routes. captain robert campbell led the company with elements of a campbell malitia into glencoe to carry out the murder. as it happened he was probably the last to know of the plot. but there is no doubt the campbell name was deeply involved with the whole plot from inception to execution.

and that my friend is the universall accepted historical truth- and not may i add a selective truth. and further to add that it is accepted across all the clans as an act of despicable treachery that truely stands out above all of the other interclan blood letting feuds-why?, not because it was committed by the english army, but because it had so much campbell involvement.
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by gmc »

buttercup;477918 wrote: oh gawd, another of my threads heading for the tar pit :-3

gmc - you know i was just pulling your leg right :-4



Of course I do. Even when somebody is deliberately trying to be offensive it doesn't bother me.

posted by ned coed

to summarise- a campbell gave advise to set the plan. two other campbells closed all possible escape routes. captain robert campbell led the company with elements of a campbell malitia into glencoe to carry out the murder. as it happened he was probably the last to know of the plot. but there is no doubt the campbell name was deeply involved with the whole plot from inception to execution.

and that my friend is the universall accepted historical truth- and not may i add a selective truth. and further to add that it is accepted across all the clans as an act of despicable treachery that truely stands out above all of the other interclan blood letting feuds-why?, not because it was committed by the english army, but because it had so much campbell involvement.



campbells played an important part and it was shocking at the time and even now but this was so much more than a simple campbell against macdonald clan dispute. To believe that's all it was is to be unaware of what else was happening.

It was a campbell that had proposed the peace treaty that offered peace to all clan chiefs who swore fealty – an oath of loyalty – to King William in the first place. The main instigator was John Dalrymple determined to show his loyalty to the new protestant king.

Buttercup was asking why there seemed to be such a residue of hatred over an event so long ago. There isn't except amongst the odd one or two that cling on or play it up for the tourists. Just as you get numpties that believe culloden was a battle between the scots and the english. The clahaig inn does have a sign saying no campbells over the bar but being one wouldn't get you barred. Worst you are likely to receive would be a good leg pulling.

posted by nedcoed

quote;- the earls of argyll(a campbell)and breadelbane (also a campbell) have promised that they would seal off the passes of rannoch, glen etive and glen dochart and all possible ways to the south over campbell lands. this alone proves that they were complicit in the massacre. next major duncanson with drummonds company of argylls sealed off the road to appin. lt. hamilton would hold the pass at the head of the glen (weather providing).



You don't point to your source but there is no passes of Rannoch but rather passes TO Rannoch Moor. Desolate place especially in winter. You would not go through glen etive to go south unless you had lost your way.
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

i have not stated that it was a simple clan on clan affair. however i am stating that stair wanted to destroy the clans. so he used the ongoing hatred between the campbell and macdonald so what better than to recruit the campbells to do the dirty work and historically the campbells were always on hand to carry out the will of the state. proof of reward for services rendered, when ardkinglas was give his dukedom.

my source for the reference to rannoch comes from stairs included letter with the kings orders sent to sir thomas livingstone- commander in chief which contains the following paragraph:- quote "the earls of argyle and breadelbane have promised that they (the MacIains - ref. macdonalds) shall have no retreat in there bounds, the passes to rannoch would be secured.....".

these passes would have been the well trodden raiding routes to campbell territory.

as you state gmc, "a desolate place" and glen etive, "you would not go through unless you were lost" and i add, "only to these places would you run to save your life".

as for the clachaig- who cares who they serve. beer is only beer, other things have more importance



and i don't know where you get this notion that-" people play up to the tourists"

what an absolute insult to the memory of those butchered people. would you also say that the jews play up to the "tourists" at buchenwald or belsen- some how i don't think so?.exterpate or exterminate they mean the same thing to me.
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Chookie
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Post by Chookie »

So far, all your (Ned Coed) posts on this thread have been utterly naive and terrifyingly simplistic. From the phraseology you have utilised, I percieve you as yet another (very) young American with an overly romantic view - and, indeed, version of Scottish history.

No nations' or peoples' history can be as easily compartmentalised as you are trying to do.
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

ned coed;478893 wrote: i have not stated that it was a simple clan on clan affair. however i am stating that stair wanted to destroy the clans. so he used the ongoing hatred between the campbell and macdonald so what better than to recruit the campbells to do the dirty work and historically the campbells were always on hand to carry out the will of the state. proof of reward for services rendered, when ardkinglas was give his dukedom.

my source for the reference to rannoch comes from stairs included letter with the kings orders sent to sir thomas livingstone- commander in chief which contains the following paragraph:- quote "the earls of argyle and breadelbane have promised that they (the MacIains - ref. macdonalds) shall have no retreat in there bounds, the passes to rannoch would be secured.....".

these passes would have been the well trodden raiding routes to campbell territory.

as you state gmc, "a desolate place" and glen etive, "you would not go through unless you were lost" and i add, "only to these places would you run to save your life".

as for the clachaig- who cares who they serve. beer is only beer, other things have more importance



and i don't know where you get this notion that-" people play up to the tourists"

what an absolute insult to the memory of those butchered people. would you also say that the jews play up to the "tourists" at buchenwald or belsen- some how i don't think so?.exterpate or exterminate they mean the same thing to me.



i have not stated that it was a simple clan on clan affair



Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.

and not may i add a selective truth. and further to add that it is accepted across all the clans as an act of despicable treachery that truely stands out above all of the other interclan blood letting feuds-why?, not because it was committed by the english army, but because it had so much campbell involvement.




As to where I get the notion it is played up to the tourists maybe it's from visiting all the tourist centres where it is given big play. Unless you are a climber or a geologist or interested in industrial history or a harry potter fan that is what Glencoe is famous for. It's the first thing people think of when they hear the name. It's not downplaying what happened but if you really think people still bear a grudge in any kind of serious manner and hold it against all the campbells then I am not going to argue with you.

Incidentally the first manager of the new visitor centre in 2002 was a campbell were there mass protests? I think not.

as for the clachaig- who cares who they serve. beer is only beer, other things have more importance



Clearly you are not a hillwalker else you would not slight one of the most famous bars in scotland indeed throughoput the world. Indeed in some circumstances I can think of nothing more important than beer. Many is the time when hillwalking when I have had visions of a nice cold beer right down to the condensation running down the glass, falling in to a bog because you are hallucinating about beer not funny and nobody sympathises I can tell you.

Perhaps your hangout is the kingshouse hotel away from the hoi polloi that frequent the Clahaig:sneaky: Sadly it has lost much of its character imo as it changed to go after the tourist market.
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Post by ned coed »

my perception of history is naive and simplistic ? how come? why would anyone want to include other issues around the central core of this event indeed if it contains historically correct facts. if you think what i've written here is incorrect then by all means go ahead and correct it yourself - and please be kind enough to try not to insult me in the process as per your previous threads.please give me the benefit of your obvious preveliged historical insight to all matters scottish.

by the way your perception as to my nationality is similar to your other perceptions in that they are incorrect

i did say a simple clan on clan affair which, with the inclusion of the english army, this was not clan on clan was it and had all the hall marks of a political solution i.e. from the state and king william- or is this simplistically untrue also- phew ,i'm getting dizzy going around and around like this! but i am enjoying the ride!.
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Post by gmc »

ned coed;479624 wrote: my perception of history is naive and simplistic ? how come? why would anyone want to include other issues around the central core of this event indeed if it contains historically correct facts. if you think what i've written here is incorrect then by all means go ahead and correct it yourself - and please be kind enough to try not to insult me in the process as per your previous threads.please give me the benefit of your obvious preveliged historical insight to all matters scottish.

by the way your perception as to my nationality is similar to your other perceptions in that they are incorrect

i did say a simple clan on clan affair which, with the inclusion of the english army, this was not clan on clan was it and had all the hall marks of a political solution i.e. from the state and king william- or is this simplistically untrue also- phew ,i'm getting dizzy going around and around like this! but i am enjoying the ride!.



It was a cynical, shocking but actually quite minor incident in a period of violent change social and economic change not just in britain but in europe as well. A simple clan dispute it most definitely was not. To see it as an act of the english govt rather overlooks the fact that scotland was at this point still an independent nation. It wasn't carried out by the English army but by a scots regiment at the behest of scottish politicians. For a lot of scottish history the english are a convenient scapegoat for acts perpetrated on scots by scots.

If you want to know the origins of the sectarian hatred between catholic and protestant go back to this period.

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/glencoe/

http://www.open2.net/civilwar/6.3.aftershocks.html
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

i challange your view that this was a minor incident. because of growing public opinion the king did his best to avoid such an enquiry especially as it was he that instigated the events leading up to the crime however, such was the outcry from all sides that three years after the massacre in april 1695 that indeed an enquiry was begun. however it's findings where so badly maligned that none of the culprits faced justice. the guilty verdict was concluded but in fact no sentences were ever passed.

there is much detail surrounding this plot but again i must come back to the final essence of this callous event and it is with glen lyon. he was a gael and he abused the sacred laws of hospitality of the gael and his actions should have been guided by this ancient law and this is the final ingredient which sickened every clansman.

SLAUGHTER UNDER TRUST was the term used by the commission of enquiry to describe this infamous act.

just to add , yes i knew about the campbell in glen coe. and how that "campbell visitor centre" was built on the site of one of the old macdonald settlement sites. contrary to your opinion many many people within and outside of glencoe shook their heads in disbelief when that man was appointed and yes there was much consternation which was elevated even more at the offical opening when a rubuke was given aimed precisely at macdonalds that in esccence they had got the story wrong and basically the macdonalds should get over it. nothing like healing old wounds than a good dose of pr to make it all go away.
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Post by gmc »

You need to view it not in isolation but in the context of what was going on at the time. If you don't know what else was going on in the rest of the UK and what was behind william and mary being asked to become king and who the jacobites were then you need to do a bit of reading. Hopefully you have heard of the gloruious revolution, battle of the boyne, the covenanters, bonnie dundee. killiecrankie. All the religious hatred of the period still afflicts scotland but most people don't know where it all comes from.

It was shocking but minor incident in a whole series of events that signalled the start of the destruction of the clan system thanks to their loyalty to a king that believed in the divine right of kings. As usual ordinary people get caught and suffer for the ambitions and stupidities of those who would be rulers without regard for those who they would rule.

There are many in scotland who like to hang on to a romantic view of the past believing in an idealised version of th clan system keeping old feuds dear and ignoring unfortunate facts if they don't tally with their own rose tinted view. There was not a mass protest at the opening of the new centre because of a campbell being in charge.

You don't say what nationality you are and I don't really care but you are not going to find many of the locals going aound ringing their hands and despairing over events three hundred years ago. Did think you were american though -coed is a peculiarly Ameican turn of phrase.
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Post by buttercup »

gmc;481800 wrote: you are not going to find many of the locals going aound ringing their hands and despairing over events three hundred years ago.



Now thats exactly why i posted it, surprised the hell out of me when the documentary stated people still held a grudge with the Campbell clan. Now if Ned is actually from Glencoe or thereabouts then the documentary was probably right & thats concerning. Ned may i ask are you a highlander or American?
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

gmc you keep missing the point. yes i am more than aware of my scottish history and the battles and interclan fueds. for example, the macdonalds had a bitter feud with the macleod clan- very bitter but there is certainly no anamosity about it . however i say again and superfluos goings on wether religious, political or social before and after still do not detract from what i said in my last thread ie glen lyon broke that most sacred law of the highland gael. why do you have so much trouble accepting this fact as the definetive action., and i repeat, sickened every highlander. and if you read the history as a completley unbiased person those facts still have that effect on anyone with blood in their veins today. why do you need to mask this simple fact which lies at the core of this affair.i am puzzled. and why do you keep refering back to religious divisions ?.do they exist today in glencoe?.

butter cup why would my nationality make any difference to my opinions or yours, would it alter your opinion of me say, if i was canadian or australian or english why do you need to know. do you think my opinions are founded by nationality?.

these are historical facts not enbelished as they have been in many articles from various scources and dressed down to conceal the full dishonour of the glencoe massacre.
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Bill Sikes
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by Bill Sikes »

ned coed;482557 wrote:

butter cup why would my nationality make any difference to my opinions or yours, would it alter your opinion of me say, if i was canadian or australian or english why do you need to know. do you think my opinions are founded by nationality?.



So are you Canadian, Australian, English, or American (or just "undefined non-

Jock")?
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

bill, i am like you- not very far away!
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by gmc »

ned coed;482557 wrote: gmc you keep missing the point. yes i am more than aware of my scottish history and the battles and interclan fueds. for example, the macdonalds had a bitter feud with the macleod clan- very bitter but there is certainly no anamosity about it . however i say again and superfluos goings on wether religious, political or social before and after still do not detract from what i said in my last thread ie glen lyon broke that most sacred law of the highland gael. why do you have so much trouble accepting this fact as the definetive action., and i repeat, sickened every highlander. and if you read the history as a completley unbiased person those facts still have that effect on anyone with blood in their veins today. why do you need to mask this simple fact which lies at the core of this affair.i am puzzled. and why do you keep refering back to religious divisions ?.do they exist today in glencoe?.

butter cup why would my nationality make any difference to my opinions or yours, would it alter your opinion of me say, if i was canadian or australian or english why do you need to know. do you think my opinions are founded by nationality?.

these are historical facts not enbelished as they have been in many articles from various scources and dressed down to conceal the full dishonour of the glencoe massacre.



why do you need to mask this simple fact which lies at the core of this affair.i am puzzled. and why do you keep refering back to religious divisions ?.do they exist today in glencoe?.




No one is masking it. Yes it was a shocking incident that appalled contemporaries at the time. That is not in dispute. But the notion that people other other than the odd few still hold any anomosity about it is ridiculous.

As to the religious divisions yes they do still exist in glencoe, in fort william and all over scotland. Since you need to ask I can only assume you are not a native scot.

Your nationality doesn't really matter but many, particularly scots americans have a rather romantic view of scottish history that owes little to the reality. If we know you are not native scots then The scots on this forum will make allowances and happily discuss things with you and give you a fuller picture if that is what you want.
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

ok, i said divisions sorry, since you are picking me up on specific wording let me put it another way, do you think that their is religious sectarianism in glencoe?

yes some scotto americans do have romantic views of scotland but generally these are tourist not historical types.

do you think then that some people do hold a true grudge today about glencoe. at who do you think the grudge is aimed ?.

if i am a native scot what "allowances"are you referring to, i'm a bit perplexed with your stand point?.

history and it,s people are subject to anyones scrutiny, are you actually saying because someone comes from beyond the borders of scotland that there fore they have a some what perverse view of it,s people and it's history. i find that attitude brings out some history cranks who will regale such tales to the guilable and pass it of as the truth,- facts being very secondary to there introverted and secular view on history
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by gmc »

ned coed;482871 wrote: ok, i said divisions sorry, since you are picking me up on specific wording let me put it another way, do you think that their is religious sectarianism in glencoe?

yes some scotto americans do have romantic views of scotland but generally these are tourist not historical types.

do you think then that some people do hold a true grudge today about glencoe. at who do you think the grudge is aimed ?.

if i am a native scot what "allowances"are you referring to, i'm a bit perplexed with your stand point?.

history and it,s people are subject to anyones scrutiny, are you actually saying because someone comes from beyond the borders of scotland that there fore they have a some what perverse view of it,s people and it's history. i find that attitude brings out some history cranks who will regale such tales to the guilable and pass it of as the truth,- facts being very secondary to there introverted and secular view on history



The idea of people still bearing such a grudge in Glencoe is just such a tale regaled to the gullible tourist and passed off as truth.

No one is disputing the facts nor that is was a callous and shameful act. What started this thread was the question.

Why does there seem to be such a residue of hatred in the people of Clan Macdonald for Clan Campbell still?



Basically there isn't any in any real sense.

do you think then that some people do hold a true grudge today about glencoe. at who do you think the grudge is aimed ?.



No i don't. I do think some like the image of the aggreived and hard done by wallowing in misery over past wrongs.

i said divisions sorry, since you are picking me up on specific wording let me put it another way, do you think that their is religious sectarianism in glencoe?




O.K. I do tend towards pedantry. That you need to ask whether there is sectarianism in glencoe does rather suggest you don't actually know the area it does also again suggest that you are not a native scot or you wouldn't need to ask.

You need to go to the central belt especially round lanark and glasgow for real sectarianism where it's occasional vitriolic manifestatons are startling the more so because it was becoming rarer and in most of scotland it is not really much of an issue but it does impact on education. There is religious division in that little kiddies go to seperate schools depending on whether they are catholic or protestant. Personally I would get rid of seperate education on religious grounds. Don't you ever wonder why seperate schools?

As to allowances, you can't seperate religon from politics in scotland and the significance of it and the impact it had, or the fact that scotland was an integral part of what was happening in the rest of europe at the time both affecting and affected by what was happening and a view of history based on braveheart and brigadoon with a bit of greyfriars bobby and scotty from the enterprise thrown in tends to give a very odd picture. More to the point it detracts from the significance of the scots in the wider scheme of things. The romantic idealised notion of a lost culture due to the machinations of a devious english govt ignores the fact that most of the perceived injustices perpetrated on scotland and the highlands were carried out by other scots.
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by buttercup »

ned coed;482557 wrote:

butter cup why would my nationality make any difference to my opinions or yours, would it alter your opinion of me say, if i was canadian or australian or english why do you need to know. do you think my opinions are founded by nationality?.




i cant understand what the big problem with just answering the question is, see if you were a scot you'd have just said so :rolleyes:

Now in answer to your own questions, i dont think i could put it any better than gmc did below ;)

gmc;482712 wrote:

Your nationality doesn't really matter but many, particularly scots americans have a rather romantic view of scottish history that owes little to the reality. If we know you are not native scots then The scots on this forum will make allowances and happily discuss things with you and give you a fuller picture if that is what you want.
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by ned coed »

gmc, so let me get this correct - your saying that in glencoe there is religious sectarianism.

would you like to expound on that statement, i know it's going off thread but i'd like to hear your views on this matter.

butter cup, for reasons at this time i won't say nae or aye to your question only to add, why do you need to know this, what relevance has it?

aha yes the" tale of the grudge is made up for the tourists", now we're getting there, yes i agree with that .but there is no" tale", as in lie, about the historical detail of what happened though is there.

macdonalds are not like that, they don,t hold grudges the highlander is not like that. they don,t forget though!>
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by buttercup »

The relevance it has is - i'd like to know :rolleyes: never before when i have asked someone where they come from have they refused to say, bizzarre :-2
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Post by gmc »

ned coed;483811 wrote: gmc, so let me get this correct - your saying that in glencoe there is religious sectarianism.

would you like to expound on that statement, i know it's going off thread but i'd like to hear your views on this matter.

butter cup, for reasons at this time i won't say nae or aye to your question only to add, why do you need to know this, what relevance has it?

aha yes the" tale of the grudge is made up for the tourists", now we're getting there, yes i agree with that .but there is no" tale", as in lie, about the historical detail of what happened though is there.

macdonalds are not like that, they don,t hold grudges the highlander is not like that. they don,t forget though!>



aha yes the" tale of the grudge is made up for the tourists", now we're getting there, yes i agree with that



Finally you get it.

gmc, so let me get this correct - your saying that in glencoe there is religious sectarianism.



No I am not saying that. Go away and re-read what I said.

[You need to go to the central belt especially round lanark and glasgow for real sectarianism where it's occasional vitriolic manifestatons are startling the more so because it was becoming rarer and in most of scotland it is not really much of an issue but it does impact on education. There is religious division in that little kiddies go to seperate schools depending on whether they are catholic or protestant. Personally I would get rid of seperate education on religious grounds. Don't you ever wonder why seperate schools?



Your nationality is relevant because much of what you are posting and the way you are phrasing it indicates you are not a native scot. If you know the area and the people as you purport to do then you would know the answer already.

If you are scots and asking about sectarianism you are either completely ignorant or trying to cause a stooshie. If the former I would suggest you go away and do some study on scotlands religious wars-not least because it would give you a better understanding of what was behind the massacre, and if the latter you are wasting your time -at least so far as I am concerned because quite frankly I have very little time for religious bigots of any kind.
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Post by ned coed »

i am asking you if there is sectarianism in glencoe. i want your response to this question not a reply to why i,m asking it. is that possible?
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Post by buttercup »

He's likely bored with you now Ned, its probably because he has answered it. The answer is where he talks about the central belt ;)
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Post by ned coed »

ok buttercup,thanks for answering for him, it's been an interesting debate. even though i got most of the answers from what he refused to comment on. for the record i have seen sectarianism very close, it's ugly,nasty and very very frightening.

extreme fundamental religious sectarianism is something the christian world is just begining to be exposed to. if iraq is the catallist for things to come my god i pray for us all and perhaps for us in the west the hymn" onward christian soldiers" chillingly and ultimately might become the common anthem for all christian westerners what ever their denomination.

and butter cup, just for your peace of mind i live in the uk from highland origin. my immediate ancestors where hunted across scotland after the fortyfive and that history of their plight is close to my heart . you can i hope understand that my phraseology might not be to some peoples taste but that should not be the excuse of others to disregard my opinion heavily based on their opinion that i might not be a scot or live in the country--blimey i suppose some would call that a geographic bigot eh gmc?.thanks again buttercup/gmc/chookie for your contribution.

i have no more comment ,bye bye.
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Post by buttercup »

Acht calm doon ya silly bugger, your taking it all too personal, if you hang around long enough & spread yourself out in other threads you'll see we might be an opinionated bunch but hey - no more so than yersel ;)

gmc is an exceptional human being & i do not answer for him, mearly offer my opinion, at this moment in time im more interested in my bag of pistachio nuts than any drama here, its jist spik ;)
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Massacre at Glencoe - The truth

Post by gmc »

ned coed;483920 wrote: i am asking you if there is sectarianism in glencoe. i want your response to this question not a reply to why i,m asking it. is that possible?



I did answer it. twice in fact the second time in big bold letters.

posted by ned coed

extreme fundamental religious sectarianism is something the christian world is just begining to be exposed to. if iraq is the catallist for things to come my god i pray for us all and perhaps for us in the west the hymn" onward christian soldiers" chillingly and ultimately might become the common anthem for all christian westerners what ever their denomination.



Actually no it's hardly a new phenomenon. It's been a common theme running throughout european history, (war is bad enough add in religon and it takes on different dimension of horror,) and it had everything to do do with the jacobite rebellions and the extreme hostility towards highlanders after the 45. Most scots were bitterly opposed to the king james and his would be followers which is an unpalatable fact many would like to gloss over.

The sectarianism of the period still echoes to this day in the orange walks in glasgow and elsewhere and the corresponding catholic marches. That's why I was curious as to whether you were native scots or not. Just about every scot in scotland knows what i am talking about, especially if they come from the central belt you kind of have to grow up here to understand it. You would also appreciate why I would potentially see your question as deliberately provocative.

Anydody with a mac or mc in their name or family background is probably of highland or irish ancestry somewhere it's hardly a rarity. Like many you have a romantic view of what actually happened and the patronising assumption that we don't know our own history.

As a true loyal son of a teuchter I trust you refuse to sing the national anthem as a matter of principal -offended by it's infamous third verse.

God grant that Marshal Wade,

May by thy Mighty aid,

Victory bring,

May he sedition hush,

And like a torrent rush,

Rebellious Scots to crush,

God save the King.



I trust you also apprciate the irony that it is a labour govt presided over by scots that has overseen the final demise of the once distinct and world famous highland regiments. Not destroyed by battle but by the stroke of a politicians pen.

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