Is it possible? one for the brainiacs

A forum to discuss local issues in Scotland.
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buttercup
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Is it possible? one for the brainiacs

Post by buttercup »

Considering the size of Scotland & Ireland is it actually possible statistically for the amount of people worldwide to claim ancestors here that do?

Seems most people have a claim :-3
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Galbally
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Post by Galbally »

I would say so, easily. If you consider that the population of the Island of Ireland was about 9 and a half million in 1840, and its is now only 6 million, you can see that somewhere along the way a huge number of Irish people emmigrated as well as died in the Famine. I'm not sure what the figures for scotland and Wales are or England, but defeintly millions of Irish people ended up in America in the 19th century so its entirely possible that there are now 10s of millions of Americans with irish ancestry. I think that the last figure I heard was about 40 million.
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Rapunzel
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Post by Rapunzel »

Galbally;442106 wrote: I would say so, easily. If you consider that the population of the Island of Ireland was about 9 and a half million in 1840, and its is now only 6 million, you can see that somewhere along the way a huge number of Irish people emmigrated as well as died in the Famine. I'm not sure what the figures for scotland and Wales are or England, but defeintly millions of Irish people ended up in America in the 19th century so its entirely possible that there are now 10s of millions of Americans with irish ancestry. I think that the last figure I heard was about 40 million.



Agreed. Also people at that time regularly had about 9-15 children per couple. There was no contraception as such and the infant mortality rate was high, but still the majority of children survived. So if one couple had say 10 kids, and each of those kids married and had 10 kids, then the population would have expanded 1000% with each generation. A generation today is 25 years, but in those days it would have been nearer 20 years.
koan
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Post by koan »

Having just moved to the UK on an ancestry visa, I can add in that it has to be a grandparent or parent only. That eliminates the relatives of all the original settlers. So it is effective for only two generations after an emigrant leaves and the long form birth certificates must be found to prove the connections.
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Rapunzel
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Post by Rapunzel »

koan;442149 wrote: Having just moved to the UK on an ancestry visa, I can add in that it has to be a grandparent or parent only. That eliminates the relatives of all the original settlers. So it is effective for only two generations after an emigrant leaves and the long form birth certificates must be found to prove the connections.



Do you mean that to claim an ancestor you can only officially include the two generations previous to your own? :thinking:

That makes no sense! (Typical beaurocracy! :-5 )

My Scots relatives fled to Ireland after Culloden and settled there. My father moved to England, met and married my mother and raised a family. They have now retired to Ireland.

But you are saying that we cannot claim Scots ancestry even though we retain the clan name and the clan tartan? What if they had retired to Scotland - could we have claimed it then? It makes no sense!

Also, your ancestors didn't just begin life 2 generations ago. We have obviously all descended from the year dot and could all probably claim ancestors from many nationalities. I know you're only quoting the official viewpoint Koan, but it really makes no sense whatsoever.
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Post by koan »

Rapunzel;442157 wrote: Do you mean that to claim an ancestor you can only officially include the two generations previous to your own? :thinking:

That makes no sense! (Typical beaurocracy! :-5 )

My Scots relatives fled to Ireland after Culloden and settled there. My father moved to England, met and married my mother and raised a family. They have now retired to Ireland.

But you are saying that we cannot claim Scots ancestry even though we retain the clan name and the clan tartan? What if they had retired to Scotland - could we have claimed it then? It makes no sense!

Also, your ancestors didn't just begin life 2 generations ago. We have obviously all descended from the year dot and could all probably claim ancestors from many nationalities. I know you're only quoting the official viewpoint Koan, but it really makes no sense whatsoever.



For the purposes of Family Tree Maker you can go as far back as Adam and Eve. For the purpose of overcrowding you can only go back to your grandparents. So, no, the UK would not allow you to settle in Scotland unless it was your grandparents that fled but, seeing as how they ended up in England then you are already in the UK so all you need do is hop a train.
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Sheryl
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Post by Sheryl »

My 3rd great ( think that's right) grandmother came over to the U.S. from Ireland in the mid 1800's. So I'm partly Irish.
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DesignerGal
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Post by DesignerGal »

Im English and German.:D






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twizzel
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Post by twizzel »

koan;442149 wrote: Having just moved to the UK on an ancestry visa, I can add in that it has to be a grandparent or parent only. That eliminates the relatives of all the original settlers. So it is effective for only two generations after an emigrant leaves and the long form birth certificates must be found to prove the connections.



In 1350 an act was passed which said that if you were born out of England of English an English parent who had provable English descent you are English and as such no one can stop you entering England, the 1350 act is still on the statute books.
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SuzyB
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Post by SuzyB »

I think i've got a bit of everything in me, my family are romany gypsys so it's really hard to trace the family tree as their are very few records, we've gone as far as my mothers great grandparents. :)
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buttercup
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Post by buttercup »

Galbally;442106 wrote: I would say so, easily. If you consider that the population of the Island of Ireland was about 9 and a half million in 1840, and its is now only 6 million, you can see that somewhere along the way a huge number of Irish people emmigrated as well as died in the Famine. I'm not sure what the figures for scotland and Wales are or England, but defeintly millions of Irish people ended up in America in the 19th century so its entirely possible that there are now 10s of millions of Americans with irish ancestry. I think that the last figure I heard was about 40 million.



wow isent that amazing

im wondering how it will look in a few generations time given the amount of eastern block workers entering the uk, i hear we have had 60,000 in the last two years & with the new laws in january :-3

is Ireland affected as much as we are?
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buttercup
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Post by buttercup »

Rapunzel;442138 wrote: Agreed. Also people at that time regularly had about 9-15 children per couple. There was no contraception as such and the infant mortality rate was high, but still the majority of children survived. So if one couple had say 10 kids, and each of those kids married and had 10 kids, then the population would have expanded 1000% with each generation. A generation today is 25 years, but in those days it would have been nearer 20 years.



excellent point rapunzel ;)
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buttercup
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Post by buttercup »

koan;442149 wrote: Having just moved to the UK on an ancestry visa, I can add in that it has to be a grandparent or parent only. That eliminates the relatives of all the original settlers. So it is effective for only two generations after an emigrant leaves and the long form birth certificates must be found to prove the connections.



excuse my ignorence koan but are you saying that if your grandparents were not from here you would not be able to work here? i was of the impression that our doors were open to everyone?

p.s - looking forward to your contract up here & finally meeting :-4
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buttercup
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Is it possible? one for the brainiacs

Post by buttercup »

SuzyB;442702 wrote: I think i've got a bit of everything in me, my family are romany gypsys so it's really hard to trace the family tree as their are very few records, we've gone as far as my mothers great grandparents. :)



try here suzy - http://www.gypsyjournal.com/ForumReply.asp?tod=9425&ForumID=1&MemberID=0&TopicID=1945
koan
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Post by koan »

twizzel;442673 wrote: In 1350 an act was passed which said that if you were born out of England of English an English parent who had provable English descent you are English and as such no one can stop you entering England, the 1350 act is still on the statute books.



As someone who just had dealings with the British High Commission, let me assure you that ancestry visas can only be had if a parent or grandparent was born in the UK. It is absolute. It is final. I won't change my statements. Only the British High Commission writing a letter to me about it saying I got it wrong will make me retract. You also need to prove you have enough money to travel with and survive for at least a short time and you need a valid passport. Then when you get to the UK airport they grill you all over again. And you'd better know the address where you are going to be staying by the time you get to the airport.

Lots of people enter the UK but the only way to stay and have a work visa through ancestry is the way I've described. I've been through it. My person is the proof.

There are other ways to live and work here but they are not through ancestry. ie) starting a company of the required minimum investment. There are what I'd call "squatters rights" as well, being that a person has to have been here longer under improper circumstances. With ancestry it is five years until I can claim dual citizenship. If I moved here to live without working it would be 10 years. If I tried to squat it would be more like 14.

harumph. I've said my piece.
K.Snyder
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Post by K.Snyder »

My grandmothers maiden name was McClure,..I had always thought that was Irish, but I looked it up after finally remembering to and it said that it was of Scottish descent, of the MacLeod of Harris clan...

Also my mothers name was Manary, and from what I've read about it, it is Irish.

The rest of me is without a doubt German.
twizzel
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Post by twizzel »

K.Snyder;519641 wrote: My grandmothers maiden name was McClure,..I had always thought that was Irish, but I looked it up after finally remembering to and it said that it was of Scottish descent, of the MacLeod of Harris clan...

Also my mothers name was Manary, and from what I've read about it, it is Irish.

The rest of me is without a doubt German.

What a mix I won't be running away with you .
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YZGI
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Post by YZGI »

Sheryl;442566 wrote: My 3rd great ( think that's right) grandmother came over to the U.S. from Ireland in the mid 1800's. So I'm partly Irish.

I'm party Irish also.
K.Snyder
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Post by K.Snyder »

twizzel;520361 wrote: What a mix I won't be running away with you .



Hmm...

I generally like women who have a little common courtesy and not prejudice anyway.
twizzel
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Post by twizzel »

koan;442908 wrote: As someone who just had dealings with the British High Commission, let me assure you that ancestry visas can only be had if a parent or grandparent was born in the UK. It is absolute. It is final. I won't change my statements. Only the British High Commission writing a letter to me about it saying I got it wrong will make me retract. You also need to prove you have enough money to travel with and survive for at least a short time and you need a valid passport. Then when you get to the UK airport they grill you all over again. And you'd better know the address where you are going to be staying by the time you get to the airport.

Lots of people enter the UK but the only way to stay and have a work visa through ancestry is the way I've described. I've been through it. My person is the proof.

There are other ways to live and work here but they are not through ancestry. ie) starting a company of the required minimum investment. There are what I'd call "squatters rights" as well, being that a person has to have been here longer under improper circumstances. With ancestry it is five years until I can claim dual citizenship. If I moved here to live without working it would be 10 years. If I tried to squat it would be more like 14.

harumph. I've said my piece.

This is yet another example of government ignoring the law.

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