Smoking Ban in Scotland

A forum to discuss local issues in Scotland.
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

Let me ask the anti-smokers a straightforward question (and hope for a reply without too much hyperbole). Under what circumstances would they permit smoking in public places?

WE
RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

GMC did a far better job replying than I ever could. Good job, GMC. :)

WE, if it were my choice, there would be no smoking in public places, the possible exception being bars because if you're in a bar, chances are you're not there for your health anyway. I recognize the fact that bars are smoke pits. That's it. No restaurants, no public buildings other than some of the bars. Air filter systems and closed doors do not contain all the smoke or its stench so those would be out.

I draw the line at a person's home or car (unless there's a kid in either, I do NOT believe in smoking around kids) because that's private property and if the smoker wants to exercise his dirty habit, then he should be able to in his own home or car if he chooses.

Instead of useless special separators between smokers and non, why not start having businesses (ie restaurants, salons or bars) for smokers ONLY? Sure it would be discriminatory and some people would bleat about it but the way I see it, it would be a far better solution than that silly no-smoking section we have now. Nonsmokers would just know to frequent the smoke free places, smokers could wallow in their fumes, everybody's mostly happy. Thoughts?
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

RedGlitter wrote: GMC did a far better job replying than I ever could. Good job, GMC. :)

Instead of useless special separators between smokers and non, why not start having businesses (ie restaurants, salons or bars) for smokers ONLY? Sure it would be discriminatory and some people would bleat about it but the way I see it, it would be a far better solution than that silly no-smoking section we have now. Nonsmokers would just know to frequent the smoke free places, smokers could wallow in their fumes, everybody's mostly happy. Thoughts?


As a non-smoking pro smoker (I like to reserve the right to become a smoker should I ever wish to), there is nothing in the above that I could take exception to. It seems a perfectly reasonable compromise.

WE
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

ArnoldLayne wrote: I remember years ago the trains ran with smoking carraiges. Even as a smoker, I refused to use them. You didnt even have to light one up for gods sake. The place was so full of blue/grey fug, you couldnt see your morning paper. The smoke would pour out the doors at every station


But if you sit in a smoking compartment, of course you are going to be in a smoky ambience. Presumably those who were creatying the fug were quite happy with things so why couldn't you go and sit in a non-smoking coach? Then everyone would have been happy.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

gmc wrote: Tell me. Do chain smoking anti-abortionists try and stop pregnant women smoking for the sake of the baby, or is that O.K? :wah:
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

"If you don't like going to places where there are smokers, don't go to those places. If the place you'd like doesn't exist, there's a niche there for an enterprising entrepeneur to make a MINT.

But sure, that's too hard. Much easier to whine to daddy Bush to get your way, right?"

+++++++++++++++ If I'm not mistaken, this implies you think it's OK for a small minority to impose their addiction on others, right?

That last sentence is so offensive, I'm going to ignore it.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: "If you don't like going to places where there are smokers, don't go to those places. If the place you'd like doesn't exist, there's a niche there for an enterprising entrepeneur to make a MINT.



But sure, that's too hard. Much easier to whine to daddy Bush to get your way, right?"



+++++++++++++++ If I'm not mistaken, this implies you think it's OK for a small minority to impose their addiction on others, right?



That last sentence is so offensive, I'm going to ignore it.
:wah: Sorry if the stick was too sharp, I just couldn't resist.



Yes yes yes! I'm perfectly okay with a business allowing whatever legal activity it will, or restricting whatever activity it will. If they get too restrictive and p!ss people off, they'll be run out of business. It's called free enterprise, and works like a charm when left alone.
Lizard Lips
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Post by Lizard Lips »

William Ess wrote: Under what circumstances would they permit smoking in public places?


I'm all for public smoking as long as the persons doing the smoking are sitting in their own cars with the windows wound up tightly closed.

Smoking is the most unhealthy, vile & filthy habit that any human could indulge in. Let alone share it with another non participating human. (or pet for that matter).

There is absolutely no defense for smoking in an indoor facility that is open to the public.
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

Lizard Lips wrote: I'm all for public smoking as long as the persons doing the smoking are sitting in their own cars with the windows wound up tightly closed.

Smoking is the most unhealthy, vile & filthy habit that any human could indulge in. Let alone share it with another non participating human. (or pet for that matter).

There is absolutely no defense for smoking in an indoor facility that is open to the public.


Since a car is not a public place and a third of the population probably disagree with your views on the subject, can we take it that you would favour an enforced ban in all public places?

WE
gmc
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Post by gmc »

Let's turn this on it's head.

Why are smokers so keen to force others to join in their habit whether they want to or not?

If you want to smoke go ahead. Why do you think you have the right to make others join you?
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

gmc wrote: Let's turn this on it's head.

Why are smokers so keen to force others to join in their habit whether they want to or not?

If you want to smoke go ahead. Why do you think you have the right to make others join you?


That is a non sequiter. Smokers do not want to force the effects of their habit on anyone. The question was, to what extent would you permit smoking in public places?

You cannot in life - unless you want to lock yourself away - insulate yourself from the effects of others. If it is not their tobacco smoke, it is their aftershave, garlic chewing (Ugh), bad breath, stinking feet, etc. Part of maturity is putting up with the foibles of other people and learning to live with them.

I seem to remember that not so long ago the land of the free banned alcohol thanks to the efforts of a few minority pressure groups. The result was that the law was dragged into disprepute and created a climate in which major crime flourished as never before.

It seems to me that people are far too keen on banning things rather than trying to reach a compromise.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

We have cigar bars in the US. I never went in to check, but I'm pretty sure there's not a no smoking section.
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

Accountable wrote: We have cigar bars in the US. I never went in to check, but I'm pretty sure there's not a no smoking section.


I like it. A non-smoking section of a cigar bar! Rather like having a gay bar in a brothel........................
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Adam Zapple
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Post by Adam Zapple »

I have no problem with smoking bans in public (meaning government owned) buildings. The government has the right to provide a healthy environment in their buildings if they wish, and as a non-smoker I appreciate the clean air. However, the government should butt out and let private businesses and the like make their own decisions as to whether or not they will allow smoking on their premises.
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

What I find sinister is the question of what will follow once tobacco has been outlawed. There is no record in history of a group relinquishing power once it has been attained and I suspect the collective health gestapo will turn its attention to something else as soon as the tobacco fight has ended. It certainly will not retire gracefully.

What will the list of items to be abolished include. Sugar, salt, alcohol......... Not even your private vice is safe!
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

The way things are going, it is prohibition by the back door.
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

"Smokers do not want to force the effects of their habit on anyone."

+++++++++ Oh, if only that were true. However, it's not. It's not just the exhalations from smokers....second-hand smoke from your burning cigarette is unfiltered, contains all the toxins and is uncontrollable. I can't find the study now, but some years ago, industry realized that flight attendants (who'd been forced to work in smoke-filled airplanes) had a significantly higher rate of lung cancer, even if they'd never smoked.

If you are smoking near me, the effect is the same as if I were smoking. If you are a smoker, you have NO IDEA how foul the smell and effects of your choking habit are for the rest of us.

The idea of a "non-smoking" niche" is superficially fine, but impossible in practice. Smoke doesn't just STOP at the "niche," but pours right in. Nothing like subjecting your children to noxious, damaging fumes from smokers, eh?

Just as I have the "right" to determine what goes on in my body, I have the "right" to protect myself and my children from your second-hand smoke. Why should (I'll use ESS's statement) "one third of the population" determine where the rest of us can go shopping, have a pleasant meal, spend time with friends in a pub?

Your claim of "prohibition by the back door" is specious. Nobody is regulating against your use of tobacco. The majority of non-smoking Scots are being protected from your smoke. I'm happy for your children.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

If you had followed this debate you would have seen that I am not a smoker. For reasons that do not need repeating, I find the aggressively intolerant attitudes of the militant non-smokers far more socially dangerous than second hand smoke. One third of the population is quite a significant section of society.

Apart from that, most of your argument is neurotic hysteria. The 'rights' to which you allude are largely presumed. You can have smoking establishments that are isolated from non-smoking. Aeroplanes were not smoked-filled: quite the contrary, the air conditioning was very efficient.

You may not die from second-hand smoke but you will almost certainly go, directly or indirectly, from neurosis. To describe a cigarette in terms that used to be reserved for cyanide is not the way to approach a structured debate.

WE
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

"Neurotic hysteria?" Nice to meet you, too, ESS.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
gmc
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Post by gmc »

William Ess wrote: That is a non sequiter. Smokers do not want to force the effects of their habit on anyone. The question was, to what extent would you permit smoking in public places?

You cannot in life - unless you want to lock yourself away - insulate yourself from the effects of others. If it is not their tobacco smoke, it is their aftershave, garlic chewing (Ugh), bad breath, stinking feet, etc. Part of maturity is putting up with the foibles of other people and learning to live with them.

I seem to remember that not so long ago the land of the free banned alcohol thanks to the efforts of a few minority pressure groups. The result was that the law was dragged into disprepute and created a climate in which major crime flourished as never before.

It seems to me that people are far too keen on banning things rather than trying to reach a compromise.


Yes they do by insisting they have a right to smoke in public places.

If it's outside I have no objection because I can get away from it and it's not blowing in my face. In a confined space you cannot.

Aftershave, garlic etc what nonsense somebody had to be right in my face for me to notice bad breath, same with BO, on the other hand all a smoker has to do is light up in a room and everybody gets to join in whether they want to or not. More to the point, all the rest are unpleasant but not life threatening.

If you choose to dismiss all the scientific evidence of the harm second hand smoke does that is your perogative. No doubt you also believe smoking is non addictive amd hepls you live a long life because all the evidence points to the contrary.
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

gmc wrote: Yes they do by insisting they have a right to smoke in public places.

If it's outside I have no objection because I can get away from it and it's not blowing in my face. In a confined space you cannot.

Aftershave, garlic etc what nonsense somebody had to be right in my face for me to notice bad breath, same with BO, on the other hand all a smoker has to do is light up in a room and everybody gets to join in whether they want to or not. More to the point, all the rest are unpleasant but not life threatening.

If you choose to dismiss all the scientific evidence of the harm second hand smoke does that is your perogative. No doubt you also believe smoking is non addictive amd hepls you live a long life because all the evidence points to the contrary.


How can a smoking restaurant, for example, affect you if you don't go in or near it? You don't have to be close up to someone to catch a blast of bad breath. I think we have exhausted the topic of medical evidence.

The question of addiction is not an issue but I don't see its relevence to the debate. As for life expectancy, I think it peaked at a point when most of those concerned were smokers. I understand the curve has now started to reverse. The longest-lived members of my family (105 and 106 years respectively) both smoked like chimneys................
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Post by gmc »

William Ess wrote: How can a smoking restaurant, for example, affect you if you don't go in or near it? You don't have to be close up to someone to catch a blast of bad breath. I think we have exhausted the topic of medical evidence.

The question of addiction is not an issue but I don't see its relevence to the debate. As for life expectancy, I think it peaked at a point when most of those concerned were smokers. I understand the curve has now started to reverse. The longest-lived members of my family (105 and 106 years respectively) both smoked like chimneys................


You know I really don't care. I'm glad it's banned. So far the only pubs losing out are the old fashioned drinking pubs. The ones that serve food or that allow kids at lunchtime are getting more business because they are now more pleasant to go to. Non smokers that used to avoid them (like me for instance, if it was smoky I just went elsewhere nor would i go for a pub luncg for the same reason) will now go in.

Smokers made this cross for themselves by refusing to show any consideration for others. Tough I've got no sympathy for them!
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

gmc wrote: Smokers made this cross for themselves by refusing to show any consideration for others. Tough I've got no sympathy for them!


I think you are wrong. Smokers showed their consideration by not smoking in places where it was prohibited. By all means increase the number of no-smoking establishments, if you wish but to prohibit smoking in total is simply unreasonable.

I don't know what is happening in Scotland these days. Last weekend a footballer was given a police caution for crossing himself in public. There have been several similar incidents.

WE
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Post by Lulu2 »

GASP! It's the end of the world!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by gmc »

William Ess wrote: I think you are wrong. Smokers showed their consideration by not smoking in places where it was prohibited. By all means increase the number of no-smoking establishments, if you wish but to prohibit smoking in total is simply unreasonable.

I don't know what is happening in Scotland these days. Last weekend a footballer was given a police caution for crossing himself in public. There have been several similar incidents.

WE


Bit more to it than that. Apparently it wasn't an isolated gesture.

http://www.sundayherald.com/57581

Police reports highlighted three hand gestures made by 26-year-old Boruc during an Old Firm match in February – a V sign at the crowd, another obscene gesture at the crowd and a blessing.




“Having considered all the available evidence, including the statements of witnesses and video recordings of the response of the crowd, but not the incident itself, which was not caught on camera, the procurator fiscal concluded that it was necessary to bring clearly to the player’s attention that conduct which involved gesticulating at and incensing the crowd at a football match amounted to the offence of breach of the peace and was unacceptable.”


Ah sectarianisn. Don't you just love it. :-5 :-5
William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

'Livingston MP Jim Devine also condemned the decision to caution Boruc. The Labour politician, a lifelong Celtic supporter, described it as “an embarrassment for Scotland which will make us the laughing stock of the world”.'

And so say all of us. A V-sign should not be a matter for the police. It's an absurd way to meet a piece of routine badinage.
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: The idea of a "non-smoking" niche" is superficially fine, but impossible in practice. Smoke doesn't just STOP at the "niche," but pours right in. What are you talking about? If a restaurant's non-smoking, it's non-smoking. :-2 I'm just suggesting using persuasion & letting a businessman choose (there's choice again) rather than using gov't force - the gov't you don't trust, remember?
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

Accountable....that comment wasn't directed at something you had said.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: Accountable....that comment wasn't directed at something you had said.'kay.





I have a question though. I'm not sure we all agree on the definition of public place. Are we talking about gov't buildings, or public restaurants?



If it's gov't buildings, I agree with no smoking rules. We all have to go there.
RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

For me, all buildings open to the public except bars. Let them have special restaurants for smokers so we nons can enjoy our meals without stench wafting across our noses. Why should we be expected to accommodate this filthy, unhealthy habit that hurts bystanders?
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

I don't understand why you want so badly to go into a place where people smoke. :confused: I mean, it seems pretty simple to me. If they smoke in there, don't go. If they don't allow smoking, go there. What's the big attraction for you in a place smokers frequent?
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Post by Lizard Lips »

William Ess wrote: can we take it that you would favour an enforced ban in all public places?

WE


YES! In public places absolutely. Private clubs, different story.

If you must indulge in your tobacco habit several times in an hour, how about using spit tobacco? At least you aren't poisoning anyone else with the fumes.:(
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Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable wrote: I don't understand why you want so badly to go into a place where people smoke. :confused: I mean, it seems pretty simple to me. If they smoke in there, don't go. If they don't allow smoking, go there. What's the big attraction for you in a place smokers frequent?


How about we try it this way: Smokers have a habit and in effect are doing a bad thing. Not the non smokers. Why must smokers be catered to? Do you get pissed off when you go into a restaurant that has a "shoes must be worn" policy? Or do you realize it's a health concern and go along with it? If you can't go to the post office or a restaurant without a mandatory cigarette then you have a serious problem. How about we allow drunks to drive? After all, if you don't like it just stay off the roads! Why have govt intervention when we can *compromise?!* It should be easy enough. Nobody has to smoke and it has no benefit for anyone, period. It is harmful and dangerous as well as socially undesirable. Smoke in your own home and stop whining that you aren't being catered to.
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Post by Accountable »

RedGlitter wrote: How about we try it this way: Smokers have a habit and in effect are doing a bad thing. Not the non smokers. Agreed, but irrellevant to this conversation.RedGlitter wrote: Why must smokers be catered to?Must? No one has said they must be catered to; you've been supporting the fascist policy of prohibiting legal activity inside private business. That's where we disagree. RedGlitter wrote: Do you get pissed off when you go into a restaurant that has a "shoes must be worn" policy? Or do you realize it's a health concern and go along with it?No I don't get pissed off. Neither do I get pissed off if a shop owner makes his private business non-smoking (more to the point). The only time I get pissed off that's pertinent to this conversation is when people claim to support freedom cry out for the fascist policy of prohibiting legal activity inside private business. RedGlitter wrote: If you can't go to the post office or a restaurant without a mandatory cigarette then you have a serious problem.Who has a problem? The post office is a gov't facility. I've already stated that I support such public buildings being non-smoking because we sometimes have to go there. A restaurant owner should be allowed to make his own determination of whether to allow a particular legal activity inside his doors. RedGlitter wrote: How about we allow drunks to drive? After all, if you don't like it just stay off the roads! Why have govt intervention when we can *compromise?!*Again, the analogy doesn't wash. Roads are run by the gov't. A person can drive drunk on private property with impunity, so long as he doesn't damage anything. RedGlitter wrote: It should be easy enough. Nobody has to smoke and it has no benefit for anyone, period. It is harmful and dangerous as well as socially undesirable. Smoke in your own home and stop whining that you aren't being catered to.No one has to do alot of things. You don't have to claim to support freedom, yet cry out for the fascist policy of prohibiting legal activity inside private business, but you do.



Your entire post failed to even remotely address my question, so I'll give it another go:



I don't understand why you want so badly to go into a place where people smoke. :confused: I mean, it seems pretty simple to me. If they smoke in there, don't go. If they don't allow smoking, go there. What's the big attraction for you in a place smokers frequent?
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Post by Adam Zapple »

RedGlitter wrote: Do you get pissed off when you go into a restaurant that has a "shoes must be worn" policy? Or do you realize it's a health concern and go along with it?


This is actually a very good point. Perhaps if smoking bans in restaurants were instituted by the Health Dept. rather than knee-jerk political reactions to PC movements. But the analogy stops at restaurants and doesn't apply to other privately owned "public" places. One other point I want to make, the "No shirt, no shoes, no service" policy begins at the door to the restaurant, not at an imaginary 20 ft boundry from the door.
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Post by Accountable »

ArnoldLayne wrote: So where is MY freedom if I am prevented going to my favourite restaraunt because they only adopt a policy of smoking/non smoking areas. If no law exists to prevent people from smoking in places where they serve food and drink, you are saying simply "dont go there".



The eroding of freedoms because I dont want someone to light up in front of me and my grandchildren in a restaraunt :confused:



Hygiene laws are in place in restaraunts and places that sell food so that the health risk to those that patronise such establishments are kept to a minimum. I dont understand why smoking shouldn't be part of these restrictionsA smoker could use the same argument about non-smoking establishments. How on earth could it be your favorite restaurant if they have such an undesirable policy?



Your freedom is in not going to a private establishment if they permit undesirable activity.

Your freedom is in complaining directly to the management and owner, and getting others to join you in doing so, to convince them to change their policy.

Your freedom is in taking your hard-earned coin and spending in an establishment that has policies you support, where you can take your grandchildren with confidence that they will remain healthy.



BTW, you didn't answer my question.
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Post by Accountable »

ArnoldLayne wrote: Hygiene laws are in place in restaraunts and places that sell food so that the health risk to those that patronise such establishments are kept to a minimum. I dont understand why smoking shouldn't be part of these restrictionsSorry, missed this part. Hygiene laws apply to the restauranteur and the employees, not the customers. The cook is not allowed to smoke while whipping up your favorite stir-fry. But you notice that customers aren't required to wear hair nets.
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Post by Accountable »

ArnoldLayne wrote: Hygeine laws are for the benefit of customers as would a smoking ban in such an establishmentThe laws protect customers from what they can't see happening behind the scenes. They do nothing for the customer that uses the toilet and then eats without washing. I don't want to go down that 'laws for your own good' road. Let's stick to the smoking issue.

ArnoldLayne wrote: Because up untill now they ALL had the same undesirable policy. The banning of smoking is a recent event. Before that, they though it sufficient to have an imaginary line drawn through the air to divide the two groupsI'm going to assume that sometime in the past some smokers tried to sue for their right to smoke in public restaurants? If so, that would have been just as wrong as this.
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Post by William Ess »

I think a lot of people assume that they have many more rights than they actually have.
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Post by Jives »

(sigh) Smoking's a sad topic for me. My father was a very strong, robust outdoorsman until he came down with emphysema from smoking. In the next ten years, he couldn't even stand up in the shower for the lack of oxygen. Finally, the massive heart attack killed him at 55.

My poor wife also smokes. She cries herself to sleep at night because she's tried everything to quit and can't (Patches, pills, even hypnosis!) I wake up at night to hear her coughing lightly in her sleep and I know that the inevitable is approaching.

My son smokes too. He tells me he is trying to quit, but he's been telling me that for 10 years now.

So my entire little family will most likely be wiped out by the deathsticks.

As for me, I spent many, many years in smoky bars and restaurants. I don't smoke, but I've inhaled enough second hand smoke that I am most likely doomed too.

So my congratulations to the Irish. It may be really tough on some of you, but everyone will be the better for it. Life's beautiful, don't do anything to shorten it if you can.:o
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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