Things you won't see mentioned in the mainstream media - yet

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gmc
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Post by gmc »

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17670 ... -holyrood/

Scottish Independence referendum bill published at Holyrood.
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Post by spot »

That could be interpreted by the English as a carrot, whether it's meant as one or not.

As in "Promise us a section 30 permit to run this referendum and we'll give you our votes at Westminster so you can get your English Brexit plan through". I don't see how else you'll get Westminster approval for the proposed independence referendum and you can't hold it unilaterally.

Is it an attempt at swinging a deal? English Brexit in exchange for Scottish independence and the local choice to remain in Europe?
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Post by gmc »

spot;1523153 wrote: That could be interpreted by the English as a carrot, whether it's meant as one or not.

As in "Promise us a section 30 permit to run this referendum and we'll give you our votes at Westminster so you can get your English Brexit plan through". I don't see how else you'll get Westminster approval for the proposed independence referendum and you can't hold it unilaterally.

Is it an attempt at swinging a deal? English Brexit in exchange for Scottish independence and the local choice to remain in Europe?


Only if you are deluided and don't understand scottish politics. Not least because no one would trust the tories to stick to what they promised - see the vow etc etc. We don't need to do deals and in any case the rest of the uk out of the eu will leave us with a neighbour in economic decline.

If the tories don't allow a second referendum all that will happen is that pro indpendence sentiment will grow in scotland. They cannot claim the right tio take back control and then turn round and claim the scots don't haver that right as well. Scottish indpendemnce terrifies the westminster establishment they know they can't go it alone. The scots are an actual constituent part of the UK the snp are the thirs largest party in westminster and the second largest political party by membership numbers and if fargage gets a seat at the negotiating table while the snp do not the result will be a break up of the united kingdom with northern ireland possibly uniting with the rest of ireland. Note what happened to the dup vote in the european elections.

We just don't like fascists in scotland. Another general election is likely to see both labour and tory wiped out in scotland.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1523158 wrote: We don't need to do deals


On the contrary. Without a Westminster deal to approve the proposed Scottish Independence Second Referendum there can be no such referendum. Local government in Barcelona tried running an unauthorized equivalent, the Catalan independence referendum of 2017, and those leaders are still in Spanish jails as a result. You'll wait a lifetime for an authorized referendum if you don't offer anything in exchange - like support for English Brexit, perhaps. I suggested that as a possible deal because it's big enough to be accepted.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1523159 wrote: On the contrary. Without a Westminster deal to approve the proposed Scottish Independence Second Referendum there can be no such referendum. Local government in Barcelona tried running an unauthorized equivalent, the Catalan independence referendum of 2017, and those leaders are still in Spanish jails as a result. You'll wait a lifetime for an authorized referendum if you don't offer anything in exchange - like support for English Brexit, perhaps. I suggested that as a possible deal because it's big enough to be accepted.


Like I said you don't understand scottish politics or the fact that the treaty of union between scotland and the rest of the UK was a union of two seperate countries - we still have separate legal and educational systems and part of the bull**** that was spouted during the last referendum was about how we are a valued partner in tye union not a subservient part, scotland is not scotlandshire it is one of the constituent compnents of the united kingdom. To suggest that we cannnot choose to end that union -( just as the UK can unilaterally leave the eu)- if we choose as some brexiteers seem to be doing is hypocrirical to put it mildly. We don't need to offer anything the scottish government has a clear mandate to puirsue a second referendum if circumstamces change as they quite clearly have and will if we get dragged out of the eu against our will. There are othyerv issies for negotiation like when are you going to remoce your nuclear submarines, should we pursue compensation for all the damage done to the scottish economy by westminster squandering the oil revenues what trade agreemnment should we have with you.

The only real parallel between catalan and scotland is that they are up agaijnst a fascist spanish government and we are up against a fascist westminster one.

You have to ask yourself why does the prospect of scottish indpendence terrify westminster so much if we are indeed such a drain on the economy as the likes of boris johnston seem to think.

Can you give me any reasons why we should continue with the union other than westminster will throw all it's toys out the pram and try and stop us? When I say you will not see this discussed in mainstream media I really do mean that, all you get is soundbites that tell you veryu little.

Brexit is going to lead to the end of the united kingdom as a political entity, the loss of the seat on the security council and the almost complete destruction of the UK economy. I still meet brexiteers that believe the canard that german car manufacturers will not want to lose the UK market. They can't seem to grasp that they won't lose it because we will still have to but their cars as there will be no indigenous car industry. Mini prodiuction looks likely to move to czechoslovakia nissan to france and toyota can benefirt from afree trade agreement between japan and the eu (which we will not be party to) the crunch will come when it comes time to replace the curremnt mdel line up. - We will have no choice but to buy the now more expensive cars or ratyher those who have jobs and afford them.

Incidentally shutting down a UK factory is less exoensive than shutting down a UK one - remember that social contract the tories got us an exemption from so investors wouldn't be put off from investing in the UK? No redundancy payments for british workers.
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Post by spot »

My own opinion is that Scotland would be far better placed if it were independent of the UK, I have no problem with the idea.

I do wonder what you think Section 30 is though, if not a legal prohibition enforceable in the courts against running the Second Scottish Independence Referendum without Westminster's authority. That's just what it is. It makes no difference whether anyone thinks it's a good or just idea.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1523165 wrote: My own opinion is that Scotland would be far better placed if it were independent of the UK, I have no problem with the idea.

I do wonder what you think Section 30 is though, if not a legal prohibition enforceable in the courts against running the Second Scottish Independence Referendum without Westminster's authority. That's just what it is. It makes no difference whether anyone thinks it's a good or just idea.


I know what section 30 is and the snp are not proposing to just go ahead without one but if brexit goes ahead and farage gets a seat at the table and the snp don't then not granting a section 30 order would make scottish independence a certainty - it's by no means clear that there is enough support at the moment. If labour the tories and the lib dems all stand in the way their support is likely to decline somewhat.

This might help clarify things a bit

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17672 ... ef=mr&lp=3
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Post by gmc »

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17739 ... stminster/

Methinks they are beginning to wake up to the very real possibility of scottish independence.

"He said that independence for Scotland had been “honestly and expertly discussed” in the run-up to the 2014 vote just as the issues had been debated before the Brexit vote and in both cases the voters had come to the “right” conclusion. "

The sad thing is I thik he believes it
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Post by gmc »

May undertakes review of devolution - without involving any of the devolved administrations.

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/1 ... -sturgeon/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17749 ... ependence/

“The job of prime minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland brings with it privileges and responsibilities which you only really feel once the black door closes behind you.

“One of the first and greatest is the duty you owe to strengthen the Union.

“To govern on behalf of the whole United Kingdom, to respect the identities of every citizen of the UK – English and Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish.

“And to ensure that we can go on facing the future together, overcoming obstacles together, and achieving more together than we ever could apart – a union of nations and people.”

Honestly I don't know whether she (may that is) actually believes what she says or whether she is just a complete idiot.
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Post by gmc »

700th anniversary of the declaration of arbroath. sssh!
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Did see a brief mention on sky new review. apparntly it was nowehere near a 100,000.
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Post by gmc »

Nicola Sturgeon to request Section 30 order in a 'matter of weeks'

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17965 ... ter-weeks/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... thin-weeks

“I don’t favour coalitions. We would favour a progressive type alliance. But I would say this to Jeremy Corbyn, or any Westminster leader who is looking to the SNP for support, if you don’t accept Scotland’s right to choose at our choosing – don’t even bother picking up the phone to me.”
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Post by gmc »

Just been watching the bbc news. Chairman of the brexit party claimed they won the last election on a no deal platform without a single word of challenge from the reporters. Tell me how many seats do the brexit party have? Anyone? I assume he means the elections for the european parliament.

Not a word from any representative of the third largest party on the westminster parliament or that the snp will be asking for a section 30 order before the end of the year. Not a word about the fcatb that Northern ireland voted to remain or that the dUP don;t actually represent the majority view.
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Post by gmc »

I knew this as do many others and it's been pointed out many times so why do people vote for brexit?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17981 ... gulations/
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Post by Raphael »

gmc;1526349 wrote: I knew this as do many others and it's been pointed out many times so why do people vote for brexit?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17981 ... gulations/


They reckon Remaining correlates with lower IQ and an inability to cope with change .
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Post by spot »

Raphael;1526670 wrote: They reckon Remaining correlates with lower IQ and an inability to cope with change .


I would, I think, for the first time, like to see a reputable reference for that assertion. I believe you may have made it up in order to rile a member.

I would offer https://iea.org.uk/are-brexit-voters-re ... remainers/ for example to refute your suggestion. Have you respectable counter-examples?

The thing is, if you post bogus arguments pretending they're facts it gets in the way of normal discourse and leaves people unwilling to engage with you. You might then pretend to yourself that the lack of engagement qualifies as a win on your part, but that surely would be a pitiful self-deception.
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Post by Raphael »

I expected you to immediately recognise -- surely obvious --- banter / humour .



Think about it .

However much you may take issue with my post content , I am obviously obscenely bright , widely read and experienced , well aware of Forum process and and the use of the scientific method to present any case sanely .

I have even dripped information which tells you I am a Graduate , Post Graduate and with Forum experience of moderating . Full CV is too James Bondish for most to believe .



So why would you take that sentence of mine to be literally true? For more than three seconds on a slow day ?

It tends to ruin the performance if you have to signal every piece of fun with an explanatory icon ( grinning face etc) or , as I sometimes do , with several exclamation marks .

But . The sentence kicks off with , " They reckon ----- "

That is clear code for , here comes speculation at best , or , a load of drivel at worst .

Please let's avoid as often as is possible the pressure to always dumb down to save others thinking .
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Post by spot »

Raphael;1526740 wrote: I expected you to immediately recognise -- surely obvious --- banter / humour .


**** that, dear boy. If there's one thing I can't stand it's ****ing banter, and humour comes a close second.

You're stepping back from "Remaining correlates with lower IQ and an inability to cope with change" as a statement with any merit? You regard it as indefensible?

The problem with a thread being diverted into byways solely to amuse the interjector (or even onlookers, though I doubt the intention) is that it screws any meaningful attempt at conversation among those who have invested thus far. It is, if I am to be ungenerous, selfish. It gratifies the self. It doesn't engage.
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Post by gmc »

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18011 ... ly-crowds/

"BBC tells us why it did not show independence rally crowds"

It gets a foornote. There were 15-20,000 at a rally in edinburgh the previous weekend and therer have been regular rallies all over scotland. If the brexit party could get 10,00 people to turn up at a rally it would be front page news everywhere.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6356313

"Threat of 'mass demonstrations' from Brexiteers turns out to be a damp squib"

Brexiteers threaten riots on the streets I think they have it wrong. If as a result of our first past the post electoral system win the most seats it will be despite the majority of voters voting against them. It won't be brexiteers rioting it will be remainders.

Was down in london last week driving past parliament square on the 31st in the evening. the brexiteers were out in their dozens.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1527143 wrote: Was down in london last week driving past parliament square on the 31st in the evening. the brexiteers were out in their dozens.


That sounds very like congestion charge territory.
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spot;1527147 wrote: That sounds very like congestion charge territory.


It was and it was duly paid by the company whose truck it was. It's horrendous even the diversions have diversiuons you don't know which one you should be following.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18014 ... v-debates/

"FM: 'Simply outrageous' to invite LibDems, not SNP, to TV debates"

One day they will wake up and realise scotland has left the UK and wonder why they did. It is ludicrous that the third largest party in the westminster and one with the second largest actual membership gets left out.
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Goodness knows how many marksmen were on the roof while you drove a truck past Parliament Square, you're a braver man than I am.
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spot;1527159 wrote: Goodness knows how many marksmen were on the roof while you drove a truck past Parliament Square, you're a braver man than I am.


It was a white one nobody would actually notice it.

Seriously thopugh it looks like plaid cymru might takeover from labour as the main party in wales. The DUP might get a kicking as well in northern ireland the imminent beak up of the united kingdom and the media seem tobe just hoping it will all go away.
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If anyone asks my permission to reunify Ireland I'm more than happy to give it.
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Post by gmc »

spot;1527169 wrote: If anyone asks my permission to reunify Ireland I'm more than happy to give it.


I think it is only a matter of time now. You'd think in the 21st century religious warfare would be a thing of the past then you look at the middle east and the DUP and northern ireland and wonder. I was amazed to find put that in boston and elsewhere in the US they have orange walks but seemingly without the violence associated with them here.
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Post by gmc »

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18016 ... -snub-row/

Oh well might liven up the debate. Most of the snp mp's can wipe the floor with their counterparts which is why they tend to get up and walk out or shout them down when they get up to speak in westminster.
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https://www.thenational.scot/news/18017 ... e-no-show/

Maybe they're beginning to realise they are pissing people off about the civerage. If she gets censored forthis it will be a travesty. Talk radio where james cleverly went is hosted by rabid brexiteer julia hartley brewer. It also has a smaller audience. go figure
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Post by gmc »

Unbelievable

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jo ... 85916.html

She's a scottish MP she has no excuse for not knowing the SNP have more members, more MP's (half of the libdems are ex labour anyway) and are for remain. Let's hope she loses her seat, unfortunately for her most scots can read and remember the damage they did in scotland while in a pact with labour.

Sadly the libdems area bunch of liars who make promises to get elected. Nick clegg had a chance to change british polltics by pushing for proportional representation as one of the conditions of the coalition but no.

Question time from Glasgow this week has one pro independence member on the panel.
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Post by gmc »

Why am I not surprised.

Judge who threw out court case against Boris Johnson 'failed to declare conflict of interest'

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6435846
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1528964 wrote: Why am I not surprised.

Judge who threw out court case against Boris Johnson 'failed to declare conflict of interest'

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6435846


Apart from the cozy club these politicians have going the other point the article makes is even more important - it is unbelievable that politicians can lie through their back teeth and there is no way that they can be legally held to account.

This has got to change!
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Post by gmc »

Bryn Mawr;1528967 wrote: Apart from the cozy club these politicians have going the other point the article makes is even more important - it is unbelievable that politicians can lie through their back teeth and there is no way that they can be legally held to account.

This has got to change!


That's not likely with johnson about to emasculate the supreme court and us leaving the eu we won;lt have recpurse to the european court of human rights and by theway kiss goodbye to human rights legislation, employment heath and safety protection and anything else that benefits ordinary people.

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/1 ... date-rule/

The Tories are now putting up the spurious case that the SNP, because they only got just over 46% of the votes, don’t have a mandate for indyref2. So, by Tory statistical logic then the Tories, even with their 80-seat majority but with only 43.6% of the vote have no mandate to proceed with Brexit?

I wonder who those who voted for brexit will blame when they start losing their jobs in the car industry, aerospace farming food production etc etc.
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https://www.thenational.scot/news/18137 ... -scotland/

Something to look out for since I bet you will not see this reported when it happens.
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Post by spot »

It's due on the 11th?

I'll put up any mainstream link I notice.
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