Killer Kids

A forum to discuss local issues in England.
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

I saw this on the news this morning. Its horrifying. All we seem to be hearing these days is kids beating people to death. but as usual the law is a p*ss take and if found guilty they'll be put in a cushy detention centre and then let out with new id's costing the taxpayer thousands.

If they're capable of that at 11 + 12 yrs old, what will they be like later on in life?

They should be locked up and left to rot :-5
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

I`m just thankful that this poor little boy lived can you imagine the horror if this had turned out a very different way . the children responsible need to be dealt with in the severest way possible, but sadly this is the uk and the truma that these little bast**ds inflicted will be explained away and their human rights will be thought of first. what`s the worst that will happen to them-why they will be locked up for a couple of years with a telly a playstation,finish their schooling and given a new idenitity WOW now thats justice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: This entire thing reminds me of the "Bulger" killing though..


yes and look what happened to them. They got re-released with new id's and now lead a nice life where as the poor child they tortured and killed didn't have a choice.

Yes locking them up is illegal but so is murdering or trying to murder a child. ;)

When I was 5 yrs old I new hurting somebody else was wrong so how at 11 and 12 beating and trying to hang a baby can you not know its wrong. Let me guess - they need rehabilitating and we need understand where the system has failed them? Lets blame the parents for getting divorced, lets blame the father for not showing enough love. Physco therapy bol*ocks - they aren't the victims the poor baby is. If any is going to need therapy he will. Stop trying to defend and do-good the little sh*ts that have done this and think about that poor baby and his family. They'll be affected forever through this. :-5 :-5
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: No.

Locking them up is by far the worst option to take.

These children need psycho-therapy, and need to realise what they have done is wrong, but locking them up (apart from being ilegal ;)) will just make them resent humanity even more..

No, they won't be put into a detention centre like they vandalised something. This is attempted murder. There will be further reaching consequences for this..


And when they do get their pyshco therapy and released back into society (because we can't let them resent humanity) lets move them next door to your wife and kids eh? :thinking:
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

Why in this day and age do we have to be tought that harming an animal/person /child is wrong you are raised from birth knowing that to inflict pain on something or someone for arguements sake a younger brother or sister, if it hurts its wrong so to tell a 12/13 year old that hanging a baby is wrong just beggers belief these are sick and twisted little ****ers they deserve all they get and a lot more.
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smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

pantsonfire321@aol.com wrote: Why in this day and age do we have to be tought that harming an animal/person /child is wrong you are raised from birth knowing that to inflict pain on something or someone for arguements sake a younger brother or sister, if it hurts its wrong so to tell a 12/13 year old that hanging a baby is wrong just beggers belief these are sick and twisted little ****ers they deserve all they get and a lot more.


:yh_clap
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

No but some where some of the time would be nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: Why not?

Its exactly that kind of attitude that makes this society so "base"..

Most "psychotic" diseases can be cured with the correct medication, and the correct psychotherapy.

They can be cured, but they will never intergrate themselves back into society properly, and learn to live a normal life until people stop these predjudices!


Do-gooders like you make this society stink because the guilty party are always thought of before the victims and its a disgrace.
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

So the bulger boys were influenced by a film - i find it very hard to belive that they put a baby on a railway line to be cut in half was because they watched a movie .one day society has to face up to the fact that we have sick twisted nasty little b******s living in our midst no amount of counciling will alter this fact they are evil and you cant cure evil. :-5
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smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: I am a child-care worker, and I find that comment deeply offensive..

You think I would put a tourtured child after its attackers???

You have no idea how upset feel for this child, and his family..

But I realise the importance to get to the bottom of WHY those children did this attck, and the best way is to see a psychotherapist..


All that you type is 'yes the child might be traumistised but......' 'the child might need counselling but.....'

What about if they're not pyschotic? What if medication won't work? You are telling me that ALL 5 KIDS are in need of medication to 'cure' them. I'm not a child-care worker but I am a mother. Put it this way, if that was my 5yr old I know exactly what cure them little sh*ts would get from me
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: Really?

Ah, are you sure?

I'm sure they killed him in another way (maybe I'm thinking of something else)..

But then again, a railway line and someone tied to it:

Tom and Jerry

Itchy and Scratchy

Almost every destructive cartoon in the history of mankind!


I watched Tom and Jerry, I watched Roadrunner........

he was killed in another way, but the plan was for a train to run over him.
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: Clearly not all children are on the same levels of mind when watching cartoons..

Some people think its cool to act out a scene from Power Rangers, or from HeMan and such..

Others think that the "dynamite under the bed", or the "train track" is a good idea..

Look, I'm not trying to argue with you, or cause trouble by bellittleing you or anything, but I studied "peadiatric psychology" as part of my course, and one of the main points was how impressionable a young child can be..


I do not feel belittled in anyway by you. You have your opinion and I have mine. My 'petty minded threats of violence agaist them' Oh what a shame, should I feel guilty about what I said? Well guess what?

So we ban cartoons, we ban violent films, we ban playing games in the schoolyard. Then who or what will you blame then?

What excuse did they give for the Bulger killers?
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: I dunno, thought it was the "Resevouir Dogs" one, they were often seen to act them out..

Stop being so goddam foolish, and acting like I'm the bad guy here. :mad:

No, we don't ban these cartoons and such, but we should be more aware of what our children watch and get up to. The parents of those kids are partially responsible :mad:

I do not see it as an "excuse", yes some people are born with psychic-disorders, but some take it from the influences of everyday life.. And that is a major problem..

You may not feel guilty about what you said about wanting to "punish" them yourself, but it really makes you no better than them, except for a few things which make it worse:
You are fully aware of what you would be doing, morally and legally

You are not subject to the "classical conditioning" reason they are, you know better

You are more likely to suffer full consequence at the hands of the law, they wouldn't even bother with psychotherapy


Basically, in the eyes of the law, you should know BETTER, whereas children of 12/13 may not (dependant upon their upbringing, and peer-to-peer relationships)..


You are not the bad guy, but I do not agree with you and you do not agree with me. :) I would gladly serve time for anyone who hurt my family. There's no pyschotherapy I would need. That I will not apologise for but that is getting away for the point.

These children KNOW that beating and strangling a 5yr old is wrong no matter what films or cartoons they have been subjected to. That poor baby must have been crying for his mummy not knowing what was happening to him. And you're saying 'well you let your kids watch Tom and Jerry what does society expect?' CRAP.

I'll tell you what kids DON'T need to see. Child killers being released and given new lives at the expense of everybody else and them thinking its ok. Sod trying to blame cartoons, the law is crap and does not show children that if you commit a crime you will be punished. Basic right and wrong is not shown by the law :mad:
Bothwell
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Post by Bothwell »

Just by way of comment isn't 10 the age of understanding legally here?

No mention of parental influence in the discussion yet :confused:
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smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

Bothwell wrote: Just by way of comment isn't 10 the age of understanding legally here?

No mention of parental influence in the discussion yet :confused:


it has been mentioned a few times? :confused:
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: No, your REALY NOT LISTENING..

Some children are not brought up knowing right from wrong.

We KNOW the difference, but you cannot assume that these kids do! :-5

cartoons and TV are sometimes the only "teacher" a child has!

Parenting nowadays is going down the pan, and has a lot to answer for..

You've every right to defend your children, but do it the proper way..

You want to break the law to get revenge for them breaking the law?

Thats a brill example to set to others, as well as your own children :-5

These kids WILL be punished!

You cannot assume they're all "psychos" (a word used far too easily nowadays), you don't know how much they will regret this in years to come, you don't know how sorry they may be..

This doesn't excuse them from doing it, but YOU want to sink to their level?


Do you have children? By your comments I'm assuming you don't.

I hope they do regret it in years to come and I hope it torments them everyday of their life.

Let's have this chat again when they are charged with attempted murder and the 'punishment' is dished out
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Peg
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Post by Peg »

I am a child-care worker, and I find that comment deeply offensive..


I don't know how it works in the UK, but I can tell you this much. Child care here once started out with the right goals in mind. Now, it has become all about money. Children in group homes, etc. are encouraged to behave badly because the worse their behavior, the more the program makes. Sad, but true. My husband did child care for over 20 years. I have to give you credit, I couldn't do it. Knives, guns, etc. pulled on him. That said, how many of these kids that have received help are in prison today for the same type of crime years later? I'm willing to bet the numbers are high.
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: They might not be charged at their age..

They may be held/put under supervision until they are of the legal age to actually be prosecuted fully..


So until they can be prosecuted, where will they be held?
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: I'm honestly not sure..

They may be held in a children's home/detention centre..

But if they are, any time they do in there will be taken from their prison sentence as "time served" I think..


so lets face it. They won't be treated like attempted murderers, they'll be treated like 11/12 yr old boys and girls. Toys, playstation, home at christmas? So if they get a 10yr sentence they'll be free to hit the streets at 21 when they can drink alcohol and drive cars. Fantastic.

I have no forgiveness where things like this are concerned :mad:
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BTS
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Post by BTS »

Peg wrote: That said, how many of these kids that have received help are in prison today for the same type of crime years later? I'm willing to bet the numbers are high.
acydikeen,

Just wondering if there are any studies on your assumption that touchy feely re-hab fixes these kind of kids as Peg questioned you above?

It seems you are taking the view that the offenders are the victims.

Does not your school teach ACCOUNTABILITY?
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smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: You clearly also have little knowledge of criminal law, or of paediatric science..

No, the fact that they'll be "on the streets" again by their mid 20s probably doesn't impress most, but here is the thing:

They would only be released if they were believed mentally stable..

Otherwise they would be sectioned under the mental health Act..


Clearly...enlighten me :)
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: I don't work at a school, if you read the above correctly, you'd know that :-5

Anyone heard of the Bulger kids recommiting a crime?

Anyone heard of any children that have been arrested for murders/atempted murders recommiting a crime of this magnitude?

No, there are no official studies, because the details of the peoples psycholigical profiles are not publically accessable.



Consider:

Even if children do go to school, who do they look up to:
Teacher

Parents




Young children know there is a right and wrong..

But the difference is taught by their parents/guardians..

As well as people they see as cool (such as celebrities, "cool and hard" older siblings, etc)


You wouldn't know if the Bulger killers struck again because they got a new life and new id. How would you know who they were? :confused:
smithy87
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Post by smithy87 »

acydikeen wrote: If someone commits a murder/attempted murder, they would be in the paper, and obviously the police would be involved.

The police (higher levels of them anyway) know whom they are, as do various "intelligence" agencies that keep an eye on them.

If they killed again, it would come out..


Its not the fact that we need to get down to why they have committed a crime, its that the punishment never reflects the severity of what has happened. They should be sent to boot camps like they have in America, not the cushy detention centres we have. My sister was a prison warden and I know how cushy the prison was. Murderers, paedophiles etc should not have an easy time.

Anyway best had get some work done, so thanks for a good debate :D :yh_coffee
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Peg
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Post by Peg »

They would only be released if they were believed mentally stable..


The prisons are full of people who were thought to be mentally stable, reformed, etc. I'm just not a big believer in psychology or psychiatry. Had you been working with these children, what signs do you feel you would have seen that the parents, teachers, etc. may have missed? Do you think it is possible for these children to be retaught to become productive human beings?
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

Acydikeen do you have kids? how would you feel if you found out some body like venables hurt a child of yours be it twenty years after their original crime ?We are not allowed to smack our children and the police are held up to redicule.About 9 years ago my daughter was bullied because her father had died she was six - when i complained to the school the head mistress said to me "but bullies have problems to"all this duz for me is show that society would rather council these scum rather than protect the decent .I grew up mesmerised by tom and jerry and still love horror films but i would never hurt another person,people have to be held accountable for their actions what ever their age - there is no excuse for mindless violence what ever your age be it 5/13 or 53.
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Post by minks »

Throw these coward kids into the big persons jail for a day or 2, let them face some hardened criminal killers and let these criminal killers scare them straight. I remember there used to be some kind of program here in the "Americas" like that long ago. These kids need to realize consequences, serious consequences, and what the heck take their parents along too the could use a good shake.

You know I slumped into a TV stupor last nite and watched Nanny 911 again, that show cracks me up, but what i did realize is the pattern of parenthood, of course most of us know it, but this show last nite really really showed it off. The kid acted out, his mother put him on time out, she raised her voice to him in dicipline, he spat it back at her with the exact words and tone. Ok so what..... The lesson .... Kids learn from their parents. Duh it's that dam simple. And if parents teach badly, or fail to teach at all, you get the James Bulgers, Karla Homolkas etc of the world. Plain and simple. When kids get this bad, it should be heavy duty, in their faces lessons for them.
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BTS
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Post by BTS »

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTS

acydikeen,

Just wondering if there are any studies on your assumption that touchy feely re-hab fixes these kind of kids as Peg questioned you above?

It seems you are taking the view that the offenders are the victims.

Does not your school teach ACCOUNTABILITY?







acydikeen wrote: I don't work at a school, if you read the above correctly, you'd know that :-5



Anyone heard of the Bulger kids recommiting a crime?

Anyone heard of any children that have been arrested for murders/atempted murders recommiting a crime of this magnitude?



No, there are no official studies, because the details of the peoples psycholigical profiles are not publically accessable.





Consider:

Even if children do go to school, who do they look up to:


Teacher

Parents

Young children know there is a right and wrong..

But the difference is taught by their parents/guardians..

As well as people they see as cool (such as celebrities, "cool and hard" older siblings, etc)


Nice way of slipping the question to the crux of your argument about re-hab.

The questions remain. You are saying that re-hab is the answer, yet you have no proof to stand on. You admit there are no studies what so ever. So what do you base your ASSUMPTIONS on? Can you prove it works?



OK let me re-phrase the other question (so you don't get too big a headache banging your head there)... Does not your PROGRAM teach ACCOUNTABILITY?

I went to your site "Sure Start" and it looks like you do have a agenda in developing young children's ideas, is accountability included?



Birth to three matters - about the framework: LINK







Birth to three matters focuses on: child development; effective practice; examples of play activities to promote play and learning; guidance on planning and resourcing; meeting diverse needs. It is a milestone in recognising the contribution made to the development of our youngest children by the adults who work with them.

So again,

Does not your PROGRAM teach ACCOUNTABILITY?
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