Just read the papers today. Britiain has let loose some terrorists again.
May as well stick an ad in the papers, advertising vacant space. 'Its a safe haven!' 'You have rights! We'll protect you!'
Next thing you know, next to the 'gipsie' camps, you'll be seeing all the little terrorist training camps as well.
I just hope we're not on the tube, when it blows.
What is Britain thinking?
What is Britain thinking?
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
What is Britain thinking?
Raven, Britain has had more terrorists living there since the war ended in 1945.The biggest group are Islamic Militants. But then you welcomed these people to the UK from the early 1950s without proper security checks.And of course some other groups.
What is Britain thinking?
capt_buzzard wrote: Raven, Britain has had more terrorists living there since the war ended in 1945.The biggest group are Islamic Militants. But then you welcomed these people to the UK from the early 1950s without proper security checks.And of course some other groups.
I had no idea. But what I HAVE noticed, is that the only people going to complain when the US withdraws it's visa waiver courtesy to the UK, are the folks who go to NY for shopping. I wonder how long it's going to take for the US to issue travel warnings to it's citizens who plan to come here.
I had no idea. But what I HAVE noticed, is that the only people going to complain when the US withdraws it's visa waiver courtesy to the UK, are the folks who go to NY for shopping. I wonder how long it's going to take for the US to issue travel warnings to it's citizens who plan to come here.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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Wild Weasil
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:23 am
What is Britain thinking?
Raven wrote: I had no idea. But what I HAVE noticed, is that the only people going to complain when the US withdraws it's visa waiver courtesy to the UK, are the folks who go to NY for shopping. I wonder how long it's going to take for the US to issue travel warnings to it's citizens who plan to come here.
Good point, but consider this.
The January after 9/11 our family went to Florida. The theme parks were very quiet indeed, even allowing for the closeness of the Christmas period. We asked around and were told it probably had something to do with the 9/11 attacks. It was even more noticeable on a visit to SeaWorld when the warm up guy stopped his song and said that if it was'nt for the Brits, the park would have closed down.
My point? Well let it be said that I am NOT anti-American. This country and Europe as a whole have an awful lot to thank that great country for. That said, this country is an awful lot safer than the U.S. is, despite this governments (and it has to be said the previous mobs) attempts to turn this island of ours into some sort of Jihad friendly doss house. And whilst I'm on my soap box, how come the rest of Europe ignores the human rights act when it suits them or when its prudent to do so? :-3 :-3 Does the UK have to play the fool in Europe?
It is just a pity, to return to U.S. attitudes, that in their attempts to make their country safer they are going to end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. In a couple of years time when revenues from British visitors and others have fallen to record lows and their country is probably no safer, they may stop to ask themselves if the hoops they put in place for people to jump through before they could visit the U.S.A. were worth it.
Here endeth the lesson.
Good point, but consider this.
The January after 9/11 our family went to Florida. The theme parks were very quiet indeed, even allowing for the closeness of the Christmas period. We asked around and were told it probably had something to do with the 9/11 attacks. It was even more noticeable on a visit to SeaWorld when the warm up guy stopped his song and said that if it was'nt for the Brits, the park would have closed down.
My point? Well let it be said that I am NOT anti-American. This country and Europe as a whole have an awful lot to thank that great country for. That said, this country is an awful lot safer than the U.S. is, despite this governments (and it has to be said the previous mobs) attempts to turn this island of ours into some sort of Jihad friendly doss house. And whilst I'm on my soap box, how come the rest of Europe ignores the human rights act when it suits them or when its prudent to do so? :-3 :-3 Does the UK have to play the fool in Europe?
It is just a pity, to return to U.S. attitudes, that in their attempts to make their country safer they are going to end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. In a couple of years time when revenues from British visitors and others have fallen to record lows and their country is probably no safer, they may stop to ask themselves if the hoops they put in place for people to jump through before they could visit the U.S.A. were worth it.
Here endeth the lesson.
What is Britain thinking?
Wild Weasil wrote: Good point, but consider this.
The January after 9/11 our family went to Florida. The theme parks were very quiet indeed, even allowing for the closeness of the Christmas period. We asked around and were told it probably had something to do with the 9/11 attacks. It was even more noticeable on a visit to SeaWorld when the warm up guy stopped his song and said that if it was'nt for the Brits, the park would have closed down.
My point? Well let it be said that I am NOT anti-American. This country and Europe as a whole have an awful lot to thank that great country for. That said, this country is an awful lot safer than the U.S. is, despite this governments (and it has to be said the previous mobs) attempts to turn this island of ours into some sort of Jihad friendly doss house. And whilst I'm on my soap box, how come the rest of Europe ignores the human rights act when it suits them or when its prudent to do so? :-3 :-3 Does the UK have to play the fool in Europe?
It is just a pity, to return to U.S. attitudes, that in their attempts to make their country safer they are going to end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. In a couple of years time when revenues from British visitors and others have fallen to record lows and their country is probably no safer, they may stop to ask themselves if the hoops they put in place for people to jump through before they could visit the U.S.A. were worth it.
Here endeth the lesson.
very well put indeed!
The UK DOES stand out on it's own in reference to adherence to the human rights act. But my question is this, when does the human rights of those terrorized come into it? Plain and simple, it seems to weigh more in favor of those who spew hatred. Look at it this way......in the night club in Bali, they thought it was americans they were blowing up. Turns out it was the aussies. Any place where americans congregate is a viable target for those who spew hate. At the last count, there are approximately 240,000 non-military americans living in the UK. Britain ranks third behind Canada and Mexico for population of ex-pat yanks. I was sort of suprised at the number. Seems we keep a pretty low profile here. But c'mon! When the UK wont send back convicted criminals, just because their country has the death penalty, something is wrong! We're talking about a country who not so long ago was hanging convicts left, right, and center! So instead, they let the jihadists run loose to plot the devastation and destruction of any whom they think MIGHT be american. As soon as those who were sent back from Guantanimo arrived, they were set loose on the british public because the PC(politically correct) patrol were worried over what europe might think. What about the human rights of those they intend to kill? In the two years I've been here, I've come to the sad realization that criminals have more rights than the victims. Britain has succumbed to the 'time out' principle. It doesnt work. America tried it once. It didnt work there either. But why does it have to take a big body count, before people realize being soft doesnt work? Britain, of all the nations in the world, ought to know by now, that pacification doesnt work! You're the BRITS for pete's sake! You used to run riot over battlefields and then sit down for afternoon tea, saying 'bloody good show, old man!' In my honest opinion, Labor has been in power WAY too long! It's turned you into a bunch of wimps. Where's a 'maggie thatcher' when you need her? You speak of human rights? Use that argument with me again when you see body bag after body bag being carried out the twisted and charred remains of what used to be the Paddington or Victoria mainline stations! I ought to know, I was living in Virginia when I watched people jumping out 110 storie buildings because a jumbo jet took out their only way down. To me, thats when the jihadists gave up any claim to human rights. They give none, so why should they get any? I'm not talking about muslims as a group. I'm talking about a specific group of people whose only aim in life is to take out as many people with one hit as they can. These are the people that were just let loose on Britains public. All in the name of 'human rights'. pah!
The January after 9/11 our family went to Florida. The theme parks were very quiet indeed, even allowing for the closeness of the Christmas period. We asked around and were told it probably had something to do with the 9/11 attacks. It was even more noticeable on a visit to SeaWorld when the warm up guy stopped his song and said that if it was'nt for the Brits, the park would have closed down.
My point? Well let it be said that I am NOT anti-American. This country and Europe as a whole have an awful lot to thank that great country for. That said, this country is an awful lot safer than the U.S. is, despite this governments (and it has to be said the previous mobs) attempts to turn this island of ours into some sort of Jihad friendly doss house. And whilst I'm on my soap box, how come the rest of Europe ignores the human rights act when it suits them or when its prudent to do so? :-3 :-3 Does the UK have to play the fool in Europe?
It is just a pity, to return to U.S. attitudes, that in their attempts to make their country safer they are going to end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. In a couple of years time when revenues from British visitors and others have fallen to record lows and their country is probably no safer, they may stop to ask themselves if the hoops they put in place for people to jump through before they could visit the U.S.A. were worth it.
Here endeth the lesson.
very well put indeed!
The UK DOES stand out on it's own in reference to adherence to the human rights act. But my question is this, when does the human rights of those terrorized come into it? Plain and simple, it seems to weigh more in favor of those who spew hatred. Look at it this way......in the night club in Bali, they thought it was americans they were blowing up. Turns out it was the aussies. Any place where americans congregate is a viable target for those who spew hate. At the last count, there are approximately 240,000 non-military americans living in the UK. Britain ranks third behind Canada and Mexico for population of ex-pat yanks. I was sort of suprised at the number. Seems we keep a pretty low profile here. But c'mon! When the UK wont send back convicted criminals, just because their country has the death penalty, something is wrong! We're talking about a country who not so long ago was hanging convicts left, right, and center! So instead, they let the jihadists run loose to plot the devastation and destruction of any whom they think MIGHT be american. As soon as those who were sent back from Guantanimo arrived, they were set loose on the british public because the PC(politically correct) patrol were worried over what europe might think. What about the human rights of those they intend to kill? In the two years I've been here, I've come to the sad realization that criminals have more rights than the victims. Britain has succumbed to the 'time out' principle. It doesnt work. America tried it once. It didnt work there either. But why does it have to take a big body count, before people realize being soft doesnt work? Britain, of all the nations in the world, ought to know by now, that pacification doesnt work! You're the BRITS for pete's sake! You used to run riot over battlefields and then sit down for afternoon tea, saying 'bloody good show, old man!' In my honest opinion, Labor has been in power WAY too long! It's turned you into a bunch of wimps. Where's a 'maggie thatcher' when you need her? You speak of human rights? Use that argument with me again when you see body bag after body bag being carried out the twisted and charred remains of what used to be the Paddington or Victoria mainline stations! I ought to know, I was living in Virginia when I watched people jumping out 110 storie buildings because a jumbo jet took out their only way down. To me, thats when the jihadists gave up any claim to human rights. They give none, so why should they get any? I'm not talking about muslims as a group. I'm talking about a specific group of people whose only aim in life is to take out as many people with one hit as they can. These are the people that were just let loose on Britains public. All in the name of 'human rights'. pah!
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
What is Britain thinking?
posted by raven
Just read the papers today. Britain has let loose some terrorists again.
What planet are you on. They've been released after having been held without trial because there is no evidence against them. They are not terrorists. We were the first nation to establish the basic principle that you could not be held without trial and not without being given the right to face your accusers, it goes all the way back to the magna Carta. The last people who should be allowed to decide who is guilty is a politician. Even during ww2 there was due process. Terrorist attacks are hardly a new phenomenon in the UK or have you not been living here that long to know better.
The americans objected to the British internment of Irish terrorists it seems the definition of terrorist is a flexible one to be changed as and when it suits. Maybe the McCartney family meeting with George Bush might help them finally understand that the IRA are not cuddly little oppressed irish people but murdering thugs just like the UDA are not defenders of freedom either. A little consistency in their attituide to terrorism would help a great deal and so would stopping the funding by americans.
It's highly doubtful if even Maggie Thatcher would throw people in prison without trial. If it was the Tories doing this you can just bet Labour would be screaming blue murder.
It is the US govt that has decided holding people without trial and torturing them to get information from them is the way to go, never mind being PC or not is is actually inneffective, evidence gained under torture is not reliable. When it comes to fighting terrorists europeans have been at it far longer than the US. I wouldn't be so disparaging of own abilities in an intelligence war.
popsted by raven
When the UK wont send back convicted criminals, just because their country has the death penalty, something is wrong! We're talking about a country who not so long ago was hanging convicts left, right, and center!
That's a good enough reason on its own. We ended the death penalty round about the time americans were setting fire to and shooting other americans because they were the wrong colour and had had the temerity to think that shouldn't matter and they should have the same civil rights.
Our freedoms are hard won and not given up lightly this terrorist threat is not the worst threat we have faced, won't be the last and as a citizen in a free country if my government tries to tell me that loss of freedom is necessary for the greater good my response is bollocks. No government should have the right to throw people in prison without a better reason than their say so.
The next farce is the introduction of identity cards which will do nothing to stop terrorism, the govt track record with computer systems hardly inspires confidence, it will cost a fortune and just gives in to the control freal nature of this govt. I detested Maggie Thatcher but TB almost makes me feel nostalgic,
I wish spitting imasge was still on, they would be having great fun with this lot
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 14,00.html
Sad tory git but safe now he is no longer in power.
Just read the papers today. Britain has let loose some terrorists again.
What planet are you on. They've been released after having been held without trial because there is no evidence against them. They are not terrorists. We were the first nation to establish the basic principle that you could not be held without trial and not without being given the right to face your accusers, it goes all the way back to the magna Carta. The last people who should be allowed to decide who is guilty is a politician. Even during ww2 there was due process. Terrorist attacks are hardly a new phenomenon in the UK or have you not been living here that long to know better.
The americans objected to the British internment of Irish terrorists it seems the definition of terrorist is a flexible one to be changed as and when it suits. Maybe the McCartney family meeting with George Bush might help them finally understand that the IRA are not cuddly little oppressed irish people but murdering thugs just like the UDA are not defenders of freedom either. A little consistency in their attituide to terrorism would help a great deal and so would stopping the funding by americans.
It's highly doubtful if even Maggie Thatcher would throw people in prison without trial. If it was the Tories doing this you can just bet Labour would be screaming blue murder.
It is the US govt that has decided holding people without trial and torturing them to get information from them is the way to go, never mind being PC or not is is actually inneffective, evidence gained under torture is not reliable. When it comes to fighting terrorists europeans have been at it far longer than the US. I wouldn't be so disparaging of own abilities in an intelligence war.
popsted by raven
When the UK wont send back convicted criminals, just because their country has the death penalty, something is wrong! We're talking about a country who not so long ago was hanging convicts left, right, and center!
That's a good enough reason on its own. We ended the death penalty round about the time americans were setting fire to and shooting other americans because they were the wrong colour and had had the temerity to think that shouldn't matter and they should have the same civil rights.
Our freedoms are hard won and not given up lightly this terrorist threat is not the worst threat we have faced, won't be the last and as a citizen in a free country if my government tries to tell me that loss of freedom is necessary for the greater good my response is bollocks. No government should have the right to throw people in prison without a better reason than their say so.
The next farce is the introduction of identity cards which will do nothing to stop terrorism, the govt track record with computer systems hardly inspires confidence, it will cost a fortune and just gives in to the control freal nature of this govt. I detested Maggie Thatcher but TB almost makes me feel nostalgic,
I wish spitting imasge was still on, they would be having great fun with this lot
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 14,00.html
Sad tory git but safe now he is no longer in power.
What is Britain thinking?
What planet are you on.
I'm on the same nasty planet as you, mate.
As a matter of fact, the US government has stopped the sinn fein from doing any fundraising in America.
Terrorist attacks are hardly a new phenomenon in the UK or have you not been living here that long to know better.
No, I've only been here 19 months. But even I was aware of the IRA bombings in London. Some news does reach outside of Britain, y'know.
And what do you mean, no evidence against them? There was plenty evidence against them. The last few the US sent over, were going to face a military tribunal because they were charged with being non-military combatants and were not subject to Geneva Convention rules of engagement.
Terrorism may not be new to you, so it's effects may have lost their shockability. It's a fairly new occurance to the average US citizen.
And what do the civil rights riots got to do with the price of eggs in china?
Those people were fighting for rights they were denied since the implementation of the 13th amendment. What you fail to understand, is the american civil war is still being fought. Slavery was only abolished in 1843. Little over a hundred years ago. The oldest grandchildren of slaves (who can still remember it) are just now dying. So that issue is still fairly fresh in generational memory. Especially in the south. The condition of the african-american today, is so much better because of great men like Martin Luther ('I have a Dream') King. Yes I come from a violent at times society, but let me assure you, I have more rights under my constitution, (based on the principles of magna carta) than any nation out there, including yours! Take a look at my bill of rights if you want to argue the point further. And by the way.....look in the national archives of the US. We have an original 1297 copy of the magna carta. Yes you can see it online.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/fe ... index.html
They even give you a translation of the document.
But you still havent answered the point about the human rights of the people that jihadists set out to blow up into tiny bloody pieces. What rights do these people have? To die, so a few scum can walk about freely? That sounds about it to me.
And c'mon! Do you really think that the government is going to grab just anyone off the street to hold in prison, at taxpayer expense, till kingdom come, just because they dont like the way you look? The evidence against these people, now walking around is inadmissable in court, probably due to the means in which it was obtained. That doesnt mean there wasnt any. And the folks just returned to britain, do you think the american government came to London and kidnapped from there? No! They were apprehended in Afghanistan, Africa, and Yemen.
I'm on the same nasty planet as you, mate.
As a matter of fact, the US government has stopped the sinn fein from doing any fundraising in America.
Terrorist attacks are hardly a new phenomenon in the UK or have you not been living here that long to know better.
No, I've only been here 19 months. But even I was aware of the IRA bombings in London. Some news does reach outside of Britain, y'know.
And what do you mean, no evidence against them? There was plenty evidence against them. The last few the US sent over, were going to face a military tribunal because they were charged with being non-military combatants and were not subject to Geneva Convention rules of engagement.
Terrorism may not be new to you, so it's effects may have lost their shockability. It's a fairly new occurance to the average US citizen.
And what do the civil rights riots got to do with the price of eggs in china?
Those people were fighting for rights they were denied since the implementation of the 13th amendment. What you fail to understand, is the american civil war is still being fought. Slavery was only abolished in 1843. Little over a hundred years ago. The oldest grandchildren of slaves (who can still remember it) are just now dying. So that issue is still fairly fresh in generational memory. Especially in the south. The condition of the african-american today, is so much better because of great men like Martin Luther ('I have a Dream') King. Yes I come from a violent at times society, but let me assure you, I have more rights under my constitution, (based on the principles of magna carta) than any nation out there, including yours! Take a look at my bill of rights if you want to argue the point further. And by the way.....look in the national archives of the US. We have an original 1297 copy of the magna carta. Yes you can see it online.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/fe ... index.html
They even give you a translation of the document.
But you still havent answered the point about the human rights of the people that jihadists set out to blow up into tiny bloody pieces. What rights do these people have? To die, so a few scum can walk about freely? That sounds about it to me.
And c'mon! Do you really think that the government is going to grab just anyone off the street to hold in prison, at taxpayer expense, till kingdom come, just because they dont like the way you look? The evidence against these people, now walking around is inadmissable in court, probably due to the means in which it was obtained. That doesnt mean there wasnt any. And the folks just returned to britain, do you think the american government came to London and kidnapped from there? No! They were apprehended in Afghanistan, Africa, and Yemen.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
What is Britain thinking?
Wild Weasil wrote: This country and Europe as a whole have an awful lot to thank that great country for.
Yay! Thanks for the kind statement, Weasel. (BTW did you misspell your name on purpose?)
Yay! Thanks for the kind statement, Weasel. (BTW did you misspell your name on purpose?)
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
What is Britain thinking?
The U.S. has created a worldwide network of some of the most dangerous elements possible by it's Roman Empire Imperialism and arrogance. Europe is right to be skeptical of the Bush Mafia and it's bloodthirsty, greedy agenda. It may sound ridiculous, and Europeans might feel differently but I believe the world was a far safer place with two superpowers at a deadlock; The Cold War definately benefited Third World nations with Soviet and U.S. subsidies that brought stability to now tumultuous regions. The new world will hopefully teach the drooling rightwing Christian militants ruling my country that we must change our path or face what we deserve.
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
What is Britain thinking?
David813 wrote: The U.S. has created a worldwide network of some of the most dangerous elements possible by it's Roman Empire Imperialism and arrogance. Europe is right to be skeptical of the Bush Mafia and it's bloodthirsty, greedy agenda. It may sound ridiculous, and Europeans might feel differently but I believe the world was a far safer place with two superpowers at a deadlock; The Cold War definately benefited Third World nations with Soviet and U.S. subsidies that brought stability to now tumultuous regions. The new world will hopefully teach the drooling rightwing Christian militants ruling my country that we must change our path or face what we deserve.
Dont sugar the pill, man! Just say what you feel! :yh_laugh
Yep, I agree about the cold war having benefits. However, wishing death and destruction on your fellow countrymen out of a misguided sense of twisted justice is kind of wrong, dont you think?
Dont sugar the pill, man! Just say what you feel! :yh_laugh
Yep, I agree about the cold war having benefits. However, wishing death and destruction on your fellow countrymen out of a misguided sense of twisted justice is kind of wrong, dont you think?
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
What is Britain thinking?
David813 wrote: a worldwide network of some of the most dangerous elements possible by it's Roman Empire Imperialism and arrogance.
Couldn't the same have been said about the British Imperialism period? I don't see you apologizing for conquering half the planet in the 19th century.
I believe the world was a far safer place with two superpowers at a deadlock.
You may get your wish...China just announced to it's military to be ready for war if Taiwan declares independence.
Of course the US wil fight on the side of Taiwan, and the result should be total nuclear war. Just think, Europe will be at the top of the heap again!
(Of course you will all be glowing in the dark, but ....that's life!)
The new world will hopefully teach the drooling rightwing Christian militants ruling my country that we must change our path or face what we deserve.
Whew! For a minute there I thought you might have some kind of radical political agenda.
Couldn't the same have been said about the British Imperialism period? I don't see you apologizing for conquering half the planet in the 19th century.
I believe the world was a far safer place with two superpowers at a deadlock.
You may get your wish...China just announced to it's military to be ready for war if Taiwan declares independence.
Of course the US wil fight on the side of Taiwan, and the result should be total nuclear war. Just think, Europe will be at the top of the heap again!
(Of course you will all be glowing in the dark, but ....that's life!)
The new world will hopefully teach the drooling rightwing Christian militants ruling my country that we must change our path or face what we deserve.
Whew! For a minute there I thought you might have some kind of radical political agenda.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
What is Britain thinking?
I don't wish bad things to happen to innocent civilians but I do think the U.S. must learn there are consequences to the actions taken by those we elected. A revolution in the 1770's was necessary to gain independence and freedom from the Crown. Another revolution may be in order to free us from the New Crown. I wish I were in Canada! I hate my Red State!!!!
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
What is Britain thinking?
David813 wrote: A revolution in the 1770's was necessary to gain independence and freedom from the Crown. Another revolution may be in order to free us from the New Crown.
! Dangerously close to treason, David. But I know what you mean. According to today's paper, the government has never been further away from the wishes of it's population compared to it's own actions. The recent vote in Arizona on illegal immigration showed that. 87% of all legislators, the governor, and the papers all were against the legislation depriving illegals of state benefits....and then 47% of the Hispanic population actually voted FOR it.
I, myself, just recently saw my own state vote to mess up my retirement. (as if New mexico can afford to alienate their teachers.) and the government just made it harder to file medical bankruptcy, while protecting tax shelters for the rich.
Last time the rich got too rich and the poor got too poor, the French Revolution made some heads roll.
I wish I were in Canada! I hate my Red State!!!!
Come on, David....with 20,000 people a day streaming across the border to be in the US, how bad can it be?
! Dangerously close to treason, David. But I know what you mean. According to today's paper, the government has never been further away from the wishes of it's population compared to it's own actions. The recent vote in Arizona on illegal immigration showed that. 87% of all legislators, the governor, and the papers all were against the legislation depriving illegals of state benefits....and then 47% of the Hispanic population actually voted FOR it.
I, myself, just recently saw my own state vote to mess up my retirement. (as if New mexico can afford to alienate their teachers.) and the government just made it harder to file medical bankruptcy, while protecting tax shelters for the rich.
Last time the rich got too rich and the poor got too poor, the French Revolution made some heads roll.
I wish I were in Canada! I hate my Red State!!!!
Come on, David....with 20,000 people a day streaming across the border to be in the US, how bad can it be?
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
What is Britain thinking?
Though I am not a conservative by any means I do know a couple who charge the neocons with growing the biggest government in history with the Patriot Acts and "Homeland Security." Not to mention all the new intelligence cells being nurtured with my tax dollars. We need to drown the Democratic Machine and forge a Labor Party.
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group that believes you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas millionaires, or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." [font=Arial Narrow][/font]
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
President Dwight D. Eisenhower Nov. 08, 1954
-
Wild Weasil
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:23 am
What is Britain thinking?
Jives wrote: Yay! Thanks for the kind statement, Weasel. (BTW did you misspell your name on purpose?)
In answer to you question, yes I did so I could get my user name registered at AOL, the proper spelling had already been taken.
The coment about the U.S. wasnt an attempt at sucking up, and whilst I dont agree with all the decisions that you Americans make, I do genuinely think Europe owes a debt to your country. I also think that America should take note of other countries opinions. I dont think anybody wants another fight in the middle east.
Keep well.
In answer to you question, yes I did so I could get my user name registered at AOL, the proper spelling had already been taken.
The coment about the U.S. wasnt an attempt at sucking up, and whilst I dont agree with all the decisions that you Americans make, I do genuinely think Europe owes a debt to your country. I also think that America should take note of other countries opinions. I dont think anybody wants another fight in the middle east.
Keep well.
-
capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
What is Britain thinking?
gmc wrote: posted by raven
What planet are you on. They've been released after having been held without trial because there is no evidence against them. They are not terrorists. We were the first nation to establish the basic principle that you could not be held without trial and not without being given the right to face your accusers, it goes all the way back to the magna Carta. The last people who should be allowed to decide who is guilty is a politician. Even during ww2 there was due process. Terrorist attacks are hardly a new phenomenon in the UK or have you not been living here that long to know better.
The americans objected to the British internment of Irish terrorists it seems the definition of terrorist is a flexible one to be changed as and when it suits. Maybe the McCartney family meeting with George Bush might help them finally understand that the IRA are not cuddly little oppressed irish people but murdering thugs just like the UDA are not defenders of freedom either. A little consistency in their attituide to terrorism would help a great deal and so would stopping the funding by americans.
It's highly doubtful if even Maggie Thatcher would throw people in prison without trial. If it was the Tories doing this you can just bet Labour would be screaming blue murder.
It is the US govt that has decided holding people without trial and torturing them to get information from them is the way to go, never mind being PC or not is is actually inneffective, evidence gained under torture is not reliable. When it comes to fighting terrorists europeans have been at it far longer than the US. I wouldn't be so disparaging of own abilities in an intelligence war.
popsted by raven
That's a good enough reason on its own. We ended the death penalty round about the time americans were setting fire to and shooting other americans because they were the wrong colour and had had the temerity to think that shouldn't matter and they should have the same civil rights.
Our freedoms are hard won and not given up lightly this terrorist threat is not the worst threat we have faced, won't be the last and as a citizen in a free country if my government tries to tell me that loss of freedom is necessary for the greater good my response is bollocks. No government should have the right to throw people in prison without a better reason than their say so.
The next farce is the introduction of identity cards which will do nothing to stop terrorism, the govt track record with computer systems hardly inspires confidence, it will cost a fortune and just gives in to the control freal nature of this govt. I detested Maggie Thatcher but TB almost makes me feel nostalgic,
I wish spitting imasge was still on, they would be having great fun with this lot
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 14,00.html
Sad tory git but safe now he is no longer in power.Full Marks my Scottish friend
What planet are you on. They've been released after having been held without trial because there is no evidence against them. They are not terrorists. We were the first nation to establish the basic principle that you could not be held without trial and not without being given the right to face your accusers, it goes all the way back to the magna Carta. The last people who should be allowed to decide who is guilty is a politician. Even during ww2 there was due process. Terrorist attacks are hardly a new phenomenon in the UK or have you not been living here that long to know better.
The americans objected to the British internment of Irish terrorists it seems the definition of terrorist is a flexible one to be changed as and when it suits. Maybe the McCartney family meeting with George Bush might help them finally understand that the IRA are not cuddly little oppressed irish people but murdering thugs just like the UDA are not defenders of freedom either. A little consistency in their attituide to terrorism would help a great deal and so would stopping the funding by americans.
It's highly doubtful if even Maggie Thatcher would throw people in prison without trial. If it was the Tories doing this you can just bet Labour would be screaming blue murder.
It is the US govt that has decided holding people without trial and torturing them to get information from them is the way to go, never mind being PC or not is is actually inneffective, evidence gained under torture is not reliable. When it comes to fighting terrorists europeans have been at it far longer than the US. I wouldn't be so disparaging of own abilities in an intelligence war.
popsted by raven
That's a good enough reason on its own. We ended the death penalty round about the time americans were setting fire to and shooting other americans because they were the wrong colour and had had the temerity to think that shouldn't matter and they should have the same civil rights.
Our freedoms are hard won and not given up lightly this terrorist threat is not the worst threat we have faced, won't be the last and as a citizen in a free country if my government tries to tell me that loss of freedom is necessary for the greater good my response is bollocks. No government should have the right to throw people in prison without a better reason than their say so.
The next farce is the introduction of identity cards which will do nothing to stop terrorism, the govt track record with computer systems hardly inspires confidence, it will cost a fortune and just gives in to the control freal nature of this govt. I detested Maggie Thatcher but TB almost makes me feel nostalgic,
I wish spitting imasge was still on, they would be having great fun with this lot
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 14,00.html
Sad tory git but safe now he is no longer in power.Full Marks my Scottish friend
What is Britain thinking?
So Raven, if you decide that you are going to vote against the government of the day and are subsequently seen as a problem the word of a minister can get you locked up. No independant burden of proof you just go off to jail.
This law is about the basic right of people to know what charges are being levelled at them.
the solution is simple, let a judge decide, why can't a judge see this so called evidence. Allowing goverments and secret services to produce the evidence in secret to detain citizens smacks of Orwell.
ps none of these measures would have stopped 911 as they all travelled on proper papers and were not running around the country declaiming their faith.
Internment did not do anything to halt the bombing campaigns in the UK
This law is about the basic right of people to know what charges are being levelled at them.
the solution is simple, let a judge decide, why can't a judge see this so called evidence. Allowing goverments and secret services to produce the evidence in secret to detain citizens smacks of Orwell.
ps none of these measures would have stopped 911 as they all travelled on proper papers and were not running around the country declaiming their faith.
Internment did not do anything to halt the bombing campaigns in the UK
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
What is Britain thinking?
posted by raven
They even give you a translation of the document.
But you still havent answered the point about the human rights of the people that jihadists set out to blow up into tiny bloody pieces. What rights do these people have? To die, so a few scum can walk about freely? That sounds about it to me.
And c'mon! Do you really think that the government is going to grab just anyone off the street to hold in prison, at taxpayer expense, till kingdom come, just because they dont like the way you look? The evidence against these people, now walking around is inadmissable in court, probably due to the means in which it was obtained. That doesnt mean there wasnt any. And the folks just returned to britain, do you think the american government came to London and kidnapped from there? No! They were apprehended in Afghanistan, Africa, and Yemen.
It's one of the basic freedoms that you cannot be imprisoned without charges being brought and you having the opportunity to face your accusers. You don't defeat terrorisit by behaving like them, once they get you to alter the way of life they are atacking they have won. Evidence obtained by torture is unreliable, people will say anything to stop what is happening them, you end up in a viscious spirl of accusation and incrimination until you eventually end up losing complete sight of the truth. They were arrested therefore they must be guilty. All it does is build up hysteria so that more and more draconian measures can be introduced-you oppose this you must support terrorists you are unpatriotic.
And what do you mean, no evidence against them? There was plenty evidence against them. The last few the US sent over, were going to face a military tribunal because they were charged with being non-military combatants and were not subject to Geneva Convention rules of engagement.
If there was let's see it in court and have it out in the open.
And c'mon! Do you really think that the government is going to grab just anyone off the street to hold in prison, at taxpayer expense, till kingdom come, just because they dont like the way you look?
Oh boy, that one almost leaves me speechless.
The Geneva concentions are intended to lay down standards for how combatants and non combatants are to be treated once captured. If the US decides they apply only when it suits their purposes the long term consequences could be fairly serious to put it mildly. Have at look at what your own military think of it.
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sec ... chive=true
posted by cinderfeet
We should introduce the same immigration controls as the US
fingerprint and photograph every alien that wants to enter our shores
Yes they have ID cards and all the rest of it, it did nothing to stop 911, what might have done was good intelligence. I thought aliens came from space
posted by raven
And what do the civil rights riots got to do with the price of eggs in china?
Those people were fighting for rights they were denied since the implementation of the 13th amendment. What you fail to understand, is the american civil war is still being fought. Slavery was only abolished in 1843. Little over a hundred years ago. The oldest grandchildren of slaves (who can still remember it) are just now dying. So that issue is still fairly fresh in generational memory. Especially in the south. The condition of the african-american today, is so much better because of great men like Martin Luther ('I have a Dream')
So you have more freedom than me is that because you are white?
Actually that is not a serious question for this particular forum. I found your comment interesting, race relations in the US are something I know very little about.
Civil rights will always be fought over, thanks to europe the UK now has a bill of rights and a superior court to appeal to if the UK govt deosn;t respect them. Rock on europe!
They even give you a translation of the document.
But you still havent answered the point about the human rights of the people that jihadists set out to blow up into tiny bloody pieces. What rights do these people have? To die, so a few scum can walk about freely? That sounds about it to me.
And c'mon! Do you really think that the government is going to grab just anyone off the street to hold in prison, at taxpayer expense, till kingdom come, just because they dont like the way you look? The evidence against these people, now walking around is inadmissable in court, probably due to the means in which it was obtained. That doesnt mean there wasnt any. And the folks just returned to britain, do you think the american government came to London and kidnapped from there? No! They were apprehended in Afghanistan, Africa, and Yemen.
It's one of the basic freedoms that you cannot be imprisoned without charges being brought and you having the opportunity to face your accusers. You don't defeat terrorisit by behaving like them, once they get you to alter the way of life they are atacking they have won. Evidence obtained by torture is unreliable, people will say anything to stop what is happening them, you end up in a viscious spirl of accusation and incrimination until you eventually end up losing complete sight of the truth. They were arrested therefore they must be guilty. All it does is build up hysteria so that more and more draconian measures can be introduced-you oppose this you must support terrorists you are unpatriotic.
And what do you mean, no evidence against them? There was plenty evidence against them. The last few the US sent over, were going to face a military tribunal because they were charged with being non-military combatants and were not subject to Geneva Convention rules of engagement.
If there was let's see it in court and have it out in the open.
And c'mon! Do you really think that the government is going to grab just anyone off the street to hold in prison, at taxpayer expense, till kingdom come, just because they dont like the way you look?
Oh boy, that one almost leaves me speechless.
The Geneva concentions are intended to lay down standards for how combatants and non combatants are to be treated once captured. If the US decides they apply only when it suits their purposes the long term consequences could be fairly serious to put it mildly. Have at look at what your own military think of it.
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sec ... chive=true
posted by cinderfeet
We should introduce the same immigration controls as the US
fingerprint and photograph every alien that wants to enter our shores
Yes they have ID cards and all the rest of it, it did nothing to stop 911, what might have done was good intelligence. I thought aliens came from space
posted by raven
And what do the civil rights riots got to do with the price of eggs in china?
Those people were fighting for rights they were denied since the implementation of the 13th amendment. What you fail to understand, is the american civil war is still being fought. Slavery was only abolished in 1843. Little over a hundred years ago. The oldest grandchildren of slaves (who can still remember it) are just now dying. So that issue is still fairly fresh in generational memory. Especially in the south. The condition of the african-american today, is so much better because of great men like Martin Luther ('I have a Dream')
So you have more freedom than me is that because you are white?
Actually that is not a serious question for this particular forum. I found your comment interesting, race relations in the US are something I know very little about.
Civil rights will always be fought over, thanks to europe the UK now has a bill of rights and a superior court to appeal to if the UK govt deosn;t respect them. Rock on europe!
What is Britain thinking?
gmc wrote: posted by raven
It's one of the basic freedoms that you cannot be imprisoned without charges being brought and you having the opportunity to face your accusers. You don't defeat terrorisit by behaving like them, once they get you to alter the way of life they are atacking they have won. Evidence obtained by torture is unreliable, people will say anything to stop what is happening them, you end up in a viscious spirl of accusation and incrimination until you eventually end up losing complete sight of the truth. They were arrested therefore they must be guilty. All it does is build up hysteria so that more and more draconian measures can be introduced-you oppose this you must support terrorists you are unpatriotic.
If there was let's see it in court and have it out in the open.
Oh boy, that one almost leaves me speechless.
The Geneva concentions are intended to lay down standards for how combatants and non combatants are to be treated once captured. If the US decides they apply only when it suits their purposes the long term consequences could be fairly serious to put it mildly. Have at look at what your own military think of it.
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sec ... chive=true
posted by cinderfeet
Yes they have ID cards and all the rest of it, it did nothing to stop 911, what might have done was good intelligence. I thought aliens came from space
posted by raven
So you have more freedom than me is that because you are white?
Actually that is not a serious question for this particular forum. I found your comment interesting, race relations in the US are something I know very little about.
Civil rights will always be fought over, thanks to europe the UK now has a bill of rights and a superior court to appeal to if the UK govt deosn;t respect them. Rock on europe!
Race relations within the United States is always boiling, just under the surface. (btw, I'm half native american indian. seminole and half white) The white bit is english, irish and dutch. Makes for a really good temper!
Anyway, the blacks in the US are trying to find themselves. They no longer belong to African communities, yet they dont belong to the white ones either. Theirs is truly a tragic tale to the history of the US. It was just in the 40's and 50's that a few really brave souls, took to the bigoted south, the right for equal education and more importantly, the right to vote. Yes, under the constitution, they had always had those rights, due to violence and segregation, they were denied them. Have you seen the movie 'Mississippi Burning'? I highly recommend it, if you want to get a good feel for what was going on. It is based on a true story. A very famous case, that just got a little justice for those murdered, very recently. Martin Luther King, was a baptist minister, who spearheaded the civil rights movement. He started the NAACP. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. He was like Ghandi, in respect that he was a non-violent protester and activist, in comparison to Malcom X who was an islamic violence monger, till he went to Mecca. They were both active at the same time. And they were both assinated. MLK was killed by a white bigot, and MX was killed by one of his own party members, for reverting to a non-violent stance. The movie Malcom X, is very good for explaining this.
http://www.martinlutherking.org/
http://www.cmgww.com/historic/malcolm/home.php
One typical thing they fought against was this. In September 1963 a church was bombed in Birmingham. Killing 4 little girls downstairs during choir practice.
This kind of thing is STILL going on today!
http://www.useekufind.com/peace/
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAlynching.htm
http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1997/mlk/links.html%20
I know I've given you a few links to look at, but they are all pretty good at explaining things a bit better than I can. On the last link, look at the dates of events. It goes right up to today. I hope these give you a better understanding of what is REALLY going on in america today.
It's one of the basic freedoms that you cannot be imprisoned without charges being brought and you having the opportunity to face your accusers. You don't defeat terrorisit by behaving like them, once they get you to alter the way of life they are atacking they have won. Evidence obtained by torture is unreliable, people will say anything to stop what is happening them, you end up in a viscious spirl of accusation and incrimination until you eventually end up losing complete sight of the truth. They were arrested therefore they must be guilty. All it does is build up hysteria so that more and more draconian measures can be introduced-you oppose this you must support terrorists you are unpatriotic.
If there was let's see it in court and have it out in the open.
Oh boy, that one almost leaves me speechless.
The Geneva concentions are intended to lay down standards for how combatants and non combatants are to be treated once captured. If the US decides they apply only when it suits their purposes the long term consequences could be fairly serious to put it mildly. Have at look at what your own military think of it.
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?sec ... chive=true
posted by cinderfeet
Yes they have ID cards and all the rest of it, it did nothing to stop 911, what might have done was good intelligence. I thought aliens came from space
posted by raven
So you have more freedom than me is that because you are white?
Actually that is not a serious question for this particular forum. I found your comment interesting, race relations in the US are something I know very little about.
Civil rights will always be fought over, thanks to europe the UK now has a bill of rights and a superior court to appeal to if the UK govt deosn;t respect them. Rock on europe!
Race relations within the United States is always boiling, just under the surface. (btw, I'm half native american indian. seminole and half white) The white bit is english, irish and dutch. Makes for a really good temper!
Anyway, the blacks in the US are trying to find themselves. They no longer belong to African communities, yet they dont belong to the white ones either. Theirs is truly a tragic tale to the history of the US. It was just in the 40's and 50's that a few really brave souls, took to the bigoted south, the right for equal education and more importantly, the right to vote. Yes, under the constitution, they had always had those rights, due to violence and segregation, they were denied them. Have you seen the movie 'Mississippi Burning'? I highly recommend it, if you want to get a good feel for what was going on. It is based on a true story. A very famous case, that just got a little justice for those murdered, very recently. Martin Luther King, was a baptist minister, who spearheaded the civil rights movement. He started the NAACP. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. He was like Ghandi, in respect that he was a non-violent protester and activist, in comparison to Malcom X who was an islamic violence monger, till he went to Mecca. They were both active at the same time. And they were both assinated. MLK was killed by a white bigot, and MX was killed by one of his own party members, for reverting to a non-violent stance. The movie Malcom X, is very good for explaining this.
http://www.martinlutherking.org/
http://www.cmgww.com/historic/malcolm/home.php
One typical thing they fought against was this. In September 1963 a church was bombed in Birmingham. Killing 4 little girls downstairs during choir practice.
This kind of thing is STILL going on today!
http://www.useekufind.com/peace/
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAlynching.htm
http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1997/mlk/links.html%20
I know I've given you a few links to look at, but they are all pretty good at explaining things a bit better than I can. On the last link, look at the dates of events. It goes right up to today. I hope these give you a better understanding of what is REALLY going on in america today.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
-
persephone
- Posts: 664
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:14 pm
What is Britain thinking?
I do genuinely think Europe owes a debt to your country.For how long should we be repaying this debt ???
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
What is Britain thinking?
posted by raven
Race relations within the United States is always boiling, just under the surface. (btw, I'm half native american indian. seminole and half white) The white bit is english, irish and dutch. Makes for a really good temper!
Ah these Dutch people don't realise how aggreesive they can be.
Thanks for the links, I have seen missippi burning, the color purple,tuskeege airmen (can't remember the spelling) Glory most of the US sitcoms etc all portray blacks and whites working and living together, it's only every now and then some news item highlights how much of an issue race still is. In the teaching of British history the role of black people gets underplayed as well it's as if they didn't exist in this country sometimes.
G8 Summit is in Scotland in June. We have been assured that the police won't use ribber bullets against demonstarators. Says a lot that they even thought about for a moment.
Race relations within the United States is always boiling, just under the surface. (btw, I'm half native american indian. seminole and half white) The white bit is english, irish and dutch. Makes for a really good temper!
Ah these Dutch people don't realise how aggreesive they can be.
Thanks for the links, I have seen missippi burning, the color purple,tuskeege airmen (can't remember the spelling) Glory most of the US sitcoms etc all portray blacks and whites working and living together, it's only every now and then some news item highlights how much of an issue race still is. In the teaching of British history the role of black people gets underplayed as well it's as if they didn't exist in this country sometimes.
G8 Summit is in Scotland in June. We have been assured that the police won't use ribber bullets against demonstarators. Says a lot that they even thought about for a moment.
What is Britain thinking?
gmc wrote: posted by raven
Ah these Dutch people don't realise how aggreesive they can be.
Thanks for the links, I have seen missippi burning, the color purple,tuskeege airmen (can't remember the spelling) Glory most of the US sitcoms etc all portray blacks and whites working and living together, it's only every now and then some news item highlights how much of an issue race still is. In the teaching of British history the role of black people gets underplayed as well it's as if they didn't exist in this country sometimes.
G8 Summit is in Scotland in June. We have been assured that the police won't use ribber bullets against demonstarators. Says a lot that they even thought about for a moment.
Okay, you're going to have to educate me on this.
If they are not going to use rubber bullets, what WILL they use then? And why consider it at all? Demonstrations are allowed here, like they are in the states, are they not? People have a right to gather and protest, right? G8 is a fine occasion to express yourself! I've never seen a protest in Britain, that got out of hand too much, that would call for the use of rubber bullets!
You have to understand, I come from the 60's and 70's, protest saturated, Kent State era of the US! Sometimes a little revolution is a good thing. It helped to bring an end to Vietnam, and the useless slaughter of peoples. (my father is a vietnam vet)
But it takes a great number of people. Shoot! We have million man marches on DC! It makes news. And if you garner enough public support for your ideals, then things change. The vote. A mighty powerful tool. Not enough people here can be 'arsed' to vote. And why not? You guys need another 'Wat Tyler'! Did you see the voter turnout in the last american election? It was MASSIVE!
Is this not a democracy? (well kind of) Hard to be a true democracy with a reining monarch. And she ISNT just a figurehead! She still has the power to rule. I've read the books on what she can do. Subtle but mighty. It just isnt common knowledge.
Because people here just cant be bothered! I really dont understand the pall of apathy that has befallen the British! What has happened here? It's like noone really cares! Have your fires really gone out? What about Scotland?
I think you guys lost alot more at Culloden, than you realise. I was absolutely outraged that bagpipers cant become part of the musicians union even TODAY, because bagpipes are still outlawed! Did you know that? But yet they are played all over the place. The Scotish regiments still play them. I know it's just a little thing, but dont you think it's about time the Scots got something back?
And whats with the stigma about being English for crying out loud! Whats so wrong about flying the ST. George? It's funny, for me to see so many confederate flags over here. Thats the hallmark of true racism. The confederate flag is a hate filled signet of the KKK. It's like the nazi flag. To see it over here, really troubles me. And the people displaying it and wearing it ARENT americans.
Ah these Dutch people don't realise how aggreesive they can be.
Thanks for the links, I have seen missippi burning, the color purple,tuskeege airmen (can't remember the spelling) Glory most of the US sitcoms etc all portray blacks and whites working and living together, it's only every now and then some news item highlights how much of an issue race still is. In the teaching of British history the role of black people gets underplayed as well it's as if they didn't exist in this country sometimes.
G8 Summit is in Scotland in June. We have been assured that the police won't use ribber bullets against demonstarators. Says a lot that they even thought about for a moment.
Okay, you're going to have to educate me on this.
If they are not going to use rubber bullets, what WILL they use then? And why consider it at all? Demonstrations are allowed here, like they are in the states, are they not? People have a right to gather and protest, right? G8 is a fine occasion to express yourself! I've never seen a protest in Britain, that got out of hand too much, that would call for the use of rubber bullets!
You have to understand, I come from the 60's and 70's, protest saturated, Kent State era of the US! Sometimes a little revolution is a good thing. It helped to bring an end to Vietnam, and the useless slaughter of peoples. (my father is a vietnam vet)
But it takes a great number of people. Shoot! We have million man marches on DC! It makes news. And if you garner enough public support for your ideals, then things change. The vote. A mighty powerful tool. Not enough people here can be 'arsed' to vote. And why not? You guys need another 'Wat Tyler'! Did you see the voter turnout in the last american election? It was MASSIVE!
Is this not a democracy? (well kind of) Hard to be a true democracy with a reining monarch. And she ISNT just a figurehead! She still has the power to rule. I've read the books on what she can do. Subtle but mighty. It just isnt common knowledge.
Because people here just cant be bothered! I really dont understand the pall of apathy that has befallen the British! What has happened here? It's like noone really cares! Have your fires really gone out? What about Scotland?
I think you guys lost alot more at Culloden, than you realise. I was absolutely outraged that bagpipers cant become part of the musicians union even TODAY, because bagpipes are still outlawed! Did you know that? But yet they are played all over the place. The Scotish regiments still play them. I know it's just a little thing, but dont you think it's about time the Scots got something back?
And whats with the stigma about being English for crying out loud! Whats so wrong about flying the ST. George? It's funny, for me to see so many confederate flags over here. Thats the hallmark of true racism. The confederate flag is a hate filled signet of the KKK. It's like the nazi flag. To see it over here, really troubles me. And the people displaying it and wearing it ARENT americans.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
What is Britain thinking?
posted by raven
Okay, you're going to have to educate me on this.
If they are not going to use rubber bullets, what WILL they use then? And why consider it at all? Demonstrations are allowed here, like they are in the states, are they not? People have a right to gather and protest, right? G8 is a fine occasion to express yourself! I've never seen a protest in Britain, that got out of hand too much, that would call for the use of rubber bullets!
Demonstrations are allowed, was my point is that they are discussing it at all. It's almost an assumption that these type of protestors should be treated differently in the first place i.e. their right to demonstrate should be questioned, the assumption being that they will turn violent. The one way to assure a massive demonstration would be to try and stop them. I think if they had
As to demonstrations getting out of hand how about the poll tax riots or the prohunting demonstrations or even those during the miners strikes when there were running battles between police and strikers.
The last big demonstration was the anti war march in London just before the invasion of Iraq. When Bush was here there were also massive demonmstrations but they were kept away from GW in case he was upset.
History is not a simple affair, don't fall in to the trap of assuming the Scots were simple victims in all this. Culloden was as much a last battle in a civil war as anything else, there were highlanders on both sides campbell against campbell macdonald against macdonald, it wasn't just english soldiers piling up the woyunded and firing cannonballs at them. You need to back a bit to contemporary sources to appreciate how much lowlanders detested the highlanders. It wasn't the English shipping people out of their homes to the colonies it was their own so called chieftains and edinburgh lawyers. It still goes on but now it's people buying up property for second homes and putting up prices so locals can't afford to live there any more.
Also don't remind anyone but TB and GB are both Scots. There are and have always been a very large percentage of Scots in positions of power in this country.
We have our own parliament and look at the numpties that get elected. People have become apathatic becuse how they vote seems to make no difference. Both the major parties object to proportional representation because the reality is neither of them would be able to hold power on their own, for the last three decades thgere has not been a government that the majority of the people in this country voted for, in reality most people are right wing about some issues bit very left wing about others-the NHS for instance that could cost Tony.
Interestingly enoigh Scottish Tories now favour PR as it is the only way they get any MSP's elected.
I wouldn't be so smug about your democracy, it looks like the christian fundamentalists have your political system by the balls and seem set to squeeze to get what they want.
We had a republic after the English civil war but the puritans were so vile getting a king back seemed a good idea in comparison.
I really dont understand the pall of apathy that has befallen the British! What has happened here?
The next two elections will be very interesting, TB might get back in as the Toriies have completely lost it but hopefully the majority will be greatly reduced. Scotland is almost wholly labour but issues like the NHS and Scottish regiments are closer to home. People don't like being lied to TB has still to answer for Iraq.
Okay, you're going to have to educate me on this.
If they are not going to use rubber bullets, what WILL they use then? And why consider it at all? Demonstrations are allowed here, like they are in the states, are they not? People have a right to gather and protest, right? G8 is a fine occasion to express yourself! I've never seen a protest in Britain, that got out of hand too much, that would call for the use of rubber bullets!
Demonstrations are allowed, was my point is that they are discussing it at all. It's almost an assumption that these type of protestors should be treated differently in the first place i.e. their right to demonstrate should be questioned, the assumption being that they will turn violent. The one way to assure a massive demonstration would be to try and stop them. I think if they had
As to demonstrations getting out of hand how about the poll tax riots or the prohunting demonstrations or even those during the miners strikes when there were running battles between police and strikers.
The last big demonstration was the anti war march in London just before the invasion of Iraq. When Bush was here there were also massive demonmstrations but they were kept away from GW in case he was upset.
History is not a simple affair, don't fall in to the trap of assuming the Scots were simple victims in all this. Culloden was as much a last battle in a civil war as anything else, there were highlanders on both sides campbell against campbell macdonald against macdonald, it wasn't just english soldiers piling up the woyunded and firing cannonballs at them. You need to back a bit to contemporary sources to appreciate how much lowlanders detested the highlanders. It wasn't the English shipping people out of their homes to the colonies it was their own so called chieftains and edinburgh lawyers. It still goes on but now it's people buying up property for second homes and putting up prices so locals can't afford to live there any more.
Also don't remind anyone but TB and GB are both Scots. There are and have always been a very large percentage of Scots in positions of power in this country.
We have our own parliament and look at the numpties that get elected. People have become apathatic becuse how they vote seems to make no difference. Both the major parties object to proportional representation because the reality is neither of them would be able to hold power on their own, for the last three decades thgere has not been a government that the majority of the people in this country voted for, in reality most people are right wing about some issues bit very left wing about others-the NHS for instance that could cost Tony.
Interestingly enoigh Scottish Tories now favour PR as it is the only way they get any MSP's elected.
I wouldn't be so smug about your democracy, it looks like the christian fundamentalists have your political system by the balls and seem set to squeeze to get what they want.
We had a republic after the English civil war but the puritans were so vile getting a king back seemed a good idea in comparison.
I really dont understand the pall of apathy that has befallen the British! What has happened here?
The next two elections will be very interesting, TB might get back in as the Toriies have completely lost it but hopefully the majority will be greatly reduced. Scotland is almost wholly labour but issues like the NHS and Scottish regiments are closer to home. People don't like being lied to TB has still to answer for Iraq.
What is Britain thinking?
Trust me, I'm not being smug about my government. As a matter of fact, I'm kind of a person 'without country' right now. I have no vote in America, and I have no vote here. Weird kind of predicament I find myself in, to tell the truth.
But thank you for taking the time to answer a few of my questions. I really appreciate that.
But thank you for taking the time to answer a few of my questions. I really appreciate that.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
What is Britain thinking?
posted by raven
Trust me, I'm not being smug about my government. As a matter of fact, I'm kind of a person 'without country' right now. I have no vote in America, and I have no vote here. Weird kind of predicament I find myself in, to tell the truth.
But thank you for taking the time to answer a few of my questions. I really appreciate that.
No problem, this forum is no fun if we all agree with each other-so long as we can disagree in a reasonable manner without it getting personal. Doesn't boher me terribly if it does to be honest but many seem to confuse impassioned disagreement with a personal attack.
I see TB is now playing the faith card as well as Michael Howard. I hope we never see the kind of faith based politics here as you have in the states.
Trust me, I'm not being smug about my government. As a matter of fact, I'm kind of a person 'without country' right now. I have no vote in America, and I have no vote here. Weird kind of predicament I find myself in, to tell the truth.
But thank you for taking the time to answer a few of my questions. I really appreciate that.
No problem, this forum is no fun if we all agree with each other-so long as we can disagree in a reasonable manner without it getting personal. Doesn't boher me terribly if it does to be honest but many seem to confuse impassioned disagreement with a personal attack.
I see TB is now playing the faith card as well as Michael Howard. I hope we never see the kind of faith based politics here as you have in the states.
What is Britain thinking?
David813 wrote: I wish I were in Canada! I hate my Red State!!!!
Think they would take ya?
Bet we could get a collection up to defray costs of getting there.
Let me know.........I can help :driving:
Think they would take ya?
Bet we could get a collection up to defray costs of getting there.
Let me know.........I can help :driving:
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
What is Britain thinking?
Raven if you had been here for the poll tax riots you would have seen plenty of use for rubber bullets, didn't the anti-globalisation rally a few years ago also get a bit hairy.
One of the problems we have is the rent a mob that will just go along to any protest for a bit of aggro.
it was very instructive to me that the pro/anti hunting protests were far more long lasting campaigns than the anti war one, that tells you something about this country
GMC - any chance of taking His Tonyness back, we will keep GB because (and I am sure to be proved wrong) he is a man of stronger priciple than Mr Blur
One of the problems we have is the rent a mob that will just go along to any protest for a bit of aggro.
it was very instructive to me that the pro/anti hunting protests were far more long lasting campaigns than the anti war one, that tells you something about this country
GMC - any chance of taking His Tonyness back, we will keep GB because (and I am sure to be proved wrong) he is a man of stronger priciple than Mr Blur
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
What is Britain thinking?
posted by Bothwell
GMC - any chance of taking His Tonyness back, we will keep GB because (and I am sure to be proved wrong) he is a man of stronger priciple than Mr Blur
Dunno, the opposition is not up to much, like Maggie he might win because the opposition is so crap. Don't like to see them playing the religious card lettiung church leaders think they matter is a big mistake.
George Brown might see his majority dented, his constituency is diehard labour but the NHS, Iraq and the Scottish regiments are all issues that have put peoples backs up.
Raven, one of the things about the British is we have always had a small standing army at home, the last time troops were used to keep public order was back in the nineteen twenties when the government of the day were shitting themselves there might be a revolution. They didn't actually use them but in Glasgow they sent in English regiments as it was considered doubtful that scottish troops would open fire on the strikers, which was probably a reasonable assumption.
I remember watching Kent State and later as a sociology student studying it. I still find it inconceiveable that your government used armed troops against unarmed demonstrators. Our police are unarmed, the rubber bullet is a fairly recent innovation brought in because of the number of riots we have but we don't have he equivalnt of a national guard that would beb used to keep order.
GMC - any chance of taking His Tonyness back, we will keep GB because (and I am sure to be proved wrong) he is a man of stronger priciple than Mr Blur
Dunno, the opposition is not up to much, like Maggie he might win because the opposition is so crap. Don't like to see them playing the religious card lettiung church leaders think they matter is a big mistake.
George Brown might see his majority dented, his constituency is diehard labour but the NHS, Iraq and the Scottish regiments are all issues that have put peoples backs up.
Raven, one of the things about the British is we have always had a small standing army at home, the last time troops were used to keep public order was back in the nineteen twenties when the government of the day were shitting themselves there might be a revolution. They didn't actually use them but in Glasgow they sent in English regiments as it was considered doubtful that scottish troops would open fire on the strikers, which was probably a reasonable assumption.
I remember watching Kent State and later as a sociology student studying it. I still find it inconceiveable that your government used armed troops against unarmed demonstrators. Our police are unarmed, the rubber bullet is a fairly recent innovation brought in because of the number of riots we have but we don't have he equivalnt of a national guard that would beb used to keep order.
What is Britain thinking?
gmc wrote: posted by raven
No problem, this forum is no fun if we all agree with each other-so long as we can disagree in a reasonable manner without it getting personal. Doesn't boher me terribly if it does to be honest but many seem to confuse impassioned disagreement with a personal attack.
I see TB is now playing the faith card as well as Michael Howard. I hope we never see the kind of faith based politics here as you have in the states.
I believe in the fundamental seperation of church and state. However, I would much rather GB's politics(george bush) over having to wearing a burhka in public.
The day muslims get a prime minister here, is the day I move back to the states.
No problem, this forum is no fun if we all agree with each other-so long as we can disagree in a reasonable manner without it getting personal. Doesn't boher me terribly if it does to be honest but many seem to confuse impassioned disagreement with a personal attack.
I see TB is now playing the faith card as well as Michael Howard. I hope we never see the kind of faith based politics here as you have in the states.
I believe in the fundamental seperation of church and state. However, I would much rather GB's politics(george bush) over having to wearing a burhka in public.
The day muslims get a prime minister here, is the day I move back to the states.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
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What is Britain thinking?
the last time troops were used to keep public order was back in the nineteen twenties Errr, what about Northern Ireland ???
GB's politics(george bush) over having to wearing a burhka in public.
The day muslims get a prime minister here, is the day I move back to the states.Not all Muslims are extremists, and if one were to be elected, they wouldn't be able to change things that drastically. Sorry I think that comment is a little extreme.
GB's politics(george bush) over having to wearing a burhka in public.
The day muslims get a prime minister here, is the day I move back to the states.Not all Muslims are extremists, and if one were to be elected, they wouldn't be able to change things that drastically. Sorry I think that comment is a little extreme.
Bad Girls have very high standards, but they love you even if you sometimes fall short.
What is Britain thinking?
posted by Letha
Errr, what about Northern Ireland ???
Good point, I was thinking of mainland UK. I am going away to hide befoire capn buzzard notices
Errr, what about Northern Ireland ???
Good point, I was thinking of mainland UK. I am going away to hide befoire capn buzzard notices
What is Britain thinking?
letha wrote: Errr, what about Northern Ireland ???
Not all Muslims are extremists, and if one were to be elected, they wouldn't be able to change things that drastically. Sorry I think that comment is a little extreme.
It may be a little extreme now. But one thing I've realised, is that anything can happen in Britain.
Not all Muslims are extremists, and if one were to be elected, they wouldn't be able to change things that drastically. Sorry I think that comment is a little extreme.
It may be a little extreme now. But one thing I've realised, is that anything can happen in Britain.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~