U.S. vs UK

All items relating to Healthcare: Medical insurance, company policies, insurance coverage, policy costs, and more!
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Raven
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Post by Raven »


A middle-aged man is sitting, head drooped, on a portable stool in the middle of the pavement, with a makeshift cardboard sign on a string around his neck. Since my arrival in the US, it's been such a common sight to see people – or "bums", as they are dismissively called here – begging that I almost didn't read the sign. But this one stopped me in my tracks.




Scrawled in crayon, it read: "Please Help. Colon cancer. Lost my job. Can't afford the rest of my treatment." The message was as simple as it was brutal. Here was a man, it turns out, who had until recently worked at a job that came with health insurance, but when the job went, his access to life-saving treatment went with it.

The fact is that it would be hard to swing the proverbial cat here without hitting someone with a tale to tell about healthcare. It's ubiquitous. From dinner party conversations to the young campaigners in the street asking for a donation to help counteract the insurance company lobbyists in Washington, everyone wants to have their say.

Peter works in my local independent bookshop in Berkeley, California, and is keen to learn more about the NHS, and to explain why getting sick in America can be so perilous. Peter works part-time and earns a modest income. He has been without employer-based health insurance – something tens of millions of Americans rely on to pay for medical bills – since he became disabled, and is visibly perplexed by people who want to retain a system that means millions of people like him are denied basic treatment."It has to work, it just has to," he says of President Obama's plans to reform healthcare so that the 40 million Americans currently without health insurance have access to some, and so that those depending on employers to provide it don't end up denied life-saving treatment should they be unlucky enough to lose their job. "The status quo is simply unacceptable. But whether we get the reform we desperately need . . . well, that's another thing altogether."

As we talk, other people browsing in the shop join in. It's as if they are desperate to talk about it, to get their concerns off their chest. "It's a terrible situation this country is in and it can't go on," a slight, middle-aged woman proffers. "It shouldn't be the case that a whole family ends up in dire straits because someone gets ill, but that's what happens here."

While still a teenager, the woman's mother, who was the primary breadwinner, was suddenly seriously disabled and the family's meagre insurance cover quickly ran out. Their limited savings were swallowed up, as was any chance the children had of going to college, because the money set aside to pay for education was also consumed by healthcare costs.

"That's what I don't understand about the people who object to [state] healthcare provision," the woman says. "Don't they understand that anyone can get sick? Don't they understand that it's not that person's fault? If someone gets ill, it can mean a whole family going under. What kind of society are we that we can let that happen?"

At times, it feels as if healthcare reform here is being steered, and possibly even derailed, by those who have the most money and lobby for insurance firms, or by those who shout the loudest.

As the general election approaches, we can expect to see healthcare in the UK deployed, as ever, as a political football. There will be plenty of to-ing and fro-ing about quality of care, waiting lists, targets, privatisation by the back door, and curbing public expenditure.

What we won't see, however, is politicians suggesting that we shouldn't have a National Health Service.

What we won't see is anyone seriously suggesting that if you don't have money, then tough luck, the cancer will just have to get on with the business of killing you.

What we won't see is the man or woman who lost their job in this recession sitting in the street asking for a few pennies to help pay for their cancer treatment.

• This is the first in a new series of columns from Mary O'Hara in the US, who is the Alistair Cooke Fulbright Scholar 2009/10





So what do you all think? U.S. needs to step up and take a good look at what it DOESNT have!

(and dont tell me I dont understand!) I certainly DO!:thinking:











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Post by hoppy »

And how long would you wait in the UK for treatment for colon cancer? In Canada? Why do Canadians come to the USA for quicker treatment?

We are being forced to accept something most of us feel is unacceptable. Why is that ok with you?
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Post by Raven »

You must have health insurance then. This is about those who dont, and fall between the cracks. Have too much money for medicare/medicaid but unemployed.

I know... I worked in the American health system for...um...21 years now. Respiratory therapist.

Do you actually LIKE having people on the street with cardboard signs asking for donations to their cancer treatment?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1251680 wrote: And how long would you wait in the UK for treatment for colon cancer? In Canada? Why do Canadians come to the USA for quicker treatment?

We are being forced to accept something most of us feel is unacceptable. Why is that ok with you?


All those I've known who have been diagnosed with cancer have started treatment within days.
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Post by Raven »

hoppy;1251680 wrote: And how long would you wait in the UK for treatment for colon cancer? In Canada? Why do Canadians come to the USA for quicker treatment?

We are being forced to accept something most of us feel is unacceptable. Why is that ok with you?
Why do you say it is unacceptable for EVERYONE to have access to healthcare?:-2
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251689 wrote: All those I've known who have been diagnosed with cancer have started treatment within days.
You know Bryn, I have heard alot of moaning about targets and waiting times, but I will tell you this much...I am glad I work for such an organisation as the NHS. The alternative is much worse.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Bryn Mawr;1251689 wrote: All those I've known who have been diagnosed with cancer have started treatment within days.
I can certainly vouch for that Bryn and the Oncology Departments in the UK are second to none. :-6
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251699 wrote: You know Bryn, I have heard alot of moaning about targets and waiting times, but I will tell you this much...I am glad I work for such an organisation as the NHS. The alternative is much worse.


Well I was more than a little miffed to have to wait nearly a year to have a cyst removed from my nose - should have been done there and then I tell you!

On the other hand, I've never had to wait for any treatment I've needed.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

oscar;1251702 wrote: I can certainly vouch for that Bryn and the Oncology Departments in the UK are second to none. :-6


And I know several people who can vouch for that personally.
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Post by hoppy »

Raven;1251683 wrote: You must have health insurance then. This is about those who dont, and fall between the cracks. Have too much money for medicare/medicaid but unemployed.

I know... I worked in the American health system for...um...21 years now. Respiratory therapist.

Do you actually LIKE having people on the street with cardboard signs asking for donations to their cancer treatment?


I don't LIKE having millions unemployed.

I don't LIKE our industries moving plants out of the country.

I don't LIKE anything to do with the UN.

I don't LIKE Obama cramming something through without having the details worked out. You don't draw up blueprints after you start building a house, do you? Apparently Obama would.

I don't LIKE unsecured borders.

I don't LIKE owing China more than we can pay.

I don't LIKE seeing more and more people on the streets with all sorts of signs.

I don't trust the 'crat's to do anything but fill their own pockets as they lead us into a socialism like you never saw before.:mad:
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Post by Raven »

Bryn Mawr;1251715 wrote: Well I was more than a little miffed to have to wait nearly a year to have a cyst removed from my nose - should have been done there and then I tell you!



On the other hand, I've never had to wait for any treatment I've needed.
Us nurses are sorting that out. Gp's wont do it, because they dont get paid for it. But here in Kent, we now.....wait for it....drum roll please...have a nurse led wound clinic. The first of 3 in the UK. One that you can self refer to. We would have had that cyst off your schnoz before you could say 'jack robinson' (yes i know where that saying comes from!..THE jack robinson) We can debride and decyst now! (Along with nurse prescribing.):-6
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Raven;1251721 wrote: Us nurses are sorting that out. Gp's wont do it, because they dont get paid for it. But here in Kent, we now.....wait for it....drum roll please...have a nurse led wound clinic. The first of 3 in the UK. One that you can self refer to. We would have had that cyst off your schnoz before you could say 'jack robinson' (yes i know where that saying comes from!..THE jack robinson) We can debride and decyst now! (Along with nurse prescribing.):-6


About time too :-4
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Post by YZGI »

I am for national health care for the US. I know people without insurance who have to pay cash up front to get meds and some procedures that they cannot afford. They also pay more for their meds and procedures than the ins. companies have to pay for the same things, which drives me crazy. All the people in the US who have good benefits in their jobs or have excess money to pay for upper echelon insurance policies are the ones I see that are against national health care. They seem to be scared that they won't get to be the first in line for tests, procedures etc etc. I think they are afraid that some poor person that couldn't afford insurance may get in front of them for a MRI.



By the way this is coming from a lifelong Republican business owner who can afford insurance but rarely uses it. I am not a Republican in todays crazy right wing religious party. I am now independent.
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Post by hoppy »

YZGI;1251724 wrote: I am for national health care for the US. I know people without insurance who have to pay cash up front to get meds and some procedures that they cannot afford. They also pay more for their meds and procedures than the ins. companies have to pay for the same things, which drives me crazy. All the people in the US who have good benefits in their jobs or have excess money to pay for upper echelon insurance policies are the ones I see that are against national health care. They seem to be scared that they won't get to be the first in line for tests, procedures etc etc. I think they are afraid that some poor person that couldn't afford insurance may get in front of them for a MRI.



By the way this is coming from a lifelong Republican business owner who can afford insurance but rarely uses it. I am not a Republican in todays crazy right wing religious party. I am now independent.


Then can we assume your employees are covered?
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Post by YZGI »

hoppy;1251729 wrote: Then can we assume your employees are covered?
Thats the point, some are some aren't.
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Post by hoppy »

YZGI;1251732 wrote: Thats the point, some are some aren't.


So you don't provide insurance for your employees?
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Post by YZGI »

hoppy;1251740 wrote: So you don't provide insurance for your employees?
I used too years ago. When insurance kept increasing 30 percent a year I had to have employees start covering some of it. To stay in business and make a meager profit I couldn't afford to pay for all the employees insurance. I figured it was best to put some of the burden on the employees than to go out of business. Some opt out because they can't afford to have money taken out of their checks every week.



Hoppy do you feel it is the business owners obligation to supply health insurance for their workers? If so why? Why is it the business owners obligation to supply health care but not the Governments?



We as business owners are having enough difficulty making a profit and keeping jobs for our employees without the responsibility of also providing health care.
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Post by Raven »

hoppy;1251740 wrote: So you don't provide insurance for your employees?
As someone who knows..the insurance companies are the ones who dictate what doctors can do, and how long you stay in hospital, and for what. The drug cartels..er companies, shanghai congress for funding for research, then charge the people they are supposed to help into 2nd mortgages for cancer treatment. You dont see anything wrong with this?
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Post by YZGI »

Raven;1251744 wrote: As someone who knows..the insurance companies are the ones who dictate what doctors can do, and how long you stay in hospital, and for what. The drug cartels..er companies, shanghai congress for funding for research, then charge the people they are supposed to help into 2nd mortgages for cancer treatment. You dont see anything wrong with this?
I do, and I agree. I know this isn't popular here in the States but am sick of illegals getting free health care and a rgular citizen being denied or put into bankruptcy to to get some meds and try to live.
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Post by hoppy »

You can come up with all the sob story scenarios you want but it boils down to this. Suppose you are buying a new car. You ask about a warranty and what it covers. Salesman says, "sure, we have a warranty. Sign the papers, we'll work out what it covers sometime later". Well, lots of Americans ain't buying it.:mad:
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Post by Raven »

YZGI;1251746 wrote: I do, and I agree. I know this isn't popular here in the States but am sick of illegals getting free health care and a rgular citizen being denied or put into bankruptcy to to get some meds and try to live.
Exactly. A national health program wont put the big BC/BS out of business. You will always have those who sniff at the thought of sharing a room with someone, and they can go to private hospitals. But lets get real here. Lets get the county hospitals and the teaching hospitals on board, along with Johns Hopkins, and get healthcare to everyone who needs it there! I just might come back then! :thinking:
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Post by minks »

hoppy;1251680 wrote: And how long would you wait in the UK for treatment for colon cancer? In Canada? Why do Canadians come to the USA for quicker treatment?

We are being forced to accept something most of us feel is unacceptable. Why is that ok with you?


Here in my province (we have health care per province) we have a dire shortage of doctors. People will go south for quicker treatment because our doctors leave here for higher pay elsewhere. My father waited 3 years for back surgery. He since then has waited 8 months for a necessary MRI. It's not as rosey as people would like to suggest. We are happy to have our health care plan, but the shiniest part is we get huge breaks on our perscriptions and dental. As for medical procedures pffffft if you are not in immediate danger you wait.
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Post by Raven »

minks;1251753 wrote: Here in my province (we have health care per province) we have a dire shortage of doctors. People will go south for quicker treatment because our doctors leave here for higher pay elsewhere. My father waited 3 years for back surgery. He since then has waited 8 months for a necessary MRI. It's not as rosey as people would like to suggest. We are happy to have our health care plan, but the shiniest part is we get huge breaks on our perscriptions and dental. As for medical procedures pffffft if you are not in immediate danger you wait.
Isnt your healthcare like the UK's? We dont wait like that anymore. We have government targets that HAVE to be met or we lose funding. It makes for a very stressful working life, but the op's are done. Nowhere is perfect, but at least it's available to everyone who needs it.:-4
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Post by minks »

Raven;1251756 wrote: Isnt your healthcare like the UK's? We dont wait like that anymore. We have government targets that HAVE to be met or we lose funding. It makes for a very stressful working life, but the op's are done. Nowhere is perfect, but at least it's available to everyone who needs it.:-4


I have no idea about government targets. I just know there is a hell of a lot of waiting unless you are dying or have cancer.
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Post by YZGI »

hoppy;1251747 wrote: You can come up with all the sob story scenarios you want but it boils down to this. Suppose you are buying a new car. You ask about a warranty and what it covers. Salesman says, "sure, we have a warranty. Sign the papers, we'll work out what it covers sometime later". Well, lots of Americans ain't buying it.:mad:


The insurance companies are already doing this.



Do you think it is the responsibility of business owners to supply health care insurance?
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Post by Raven »

minks;1251761 wrote: I have no idea about government targets. I just know there is a hell of a lot of waiting unless you are dying or have cancer.
I know that Canada is recruiting HARD for nurses over here. Must admit it IS a tempting offer, but what about Doctors? You guys recruiting for those as well?
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Post by minks »

YZGI;1251764 wrote: The insurance companies are already doing this.



Do you think it is the responsibility of business owners to supply health care insurance?

yah that's your signing bonus. Seriously here as sick as this sounds, people are taking a pay cut just to retain benifits.

Perhaps not all of the fees Y's but maybe half and half, employer pays half, employee pays half?
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Post by Raven »

hoppy;1251747 wrote: You can come up with all the sob story scenarios you want but it boils down to this. Suppose you are buying a new car. You ask about a warranty and what it covers. Salesman says, "sure, we have a warranty. Sign the papers, we'll work out what it covers sometime later". Well, lots of Americans ain't buying it.:mad:
Hoppy, this is an interesting analogy, and I am sure your view is a common one. But what I am asking, is why are you so dead set against a national insurance scheme? It obviously wont effect you, as I am sure you have full BC/BS coverage up to the grave, but what about the folks who dont? This effects the most Americans! What about the ones who are not poor enough for welfare? I was one of those for cryin out loud! I made 30k a year as a health care professional!
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Post by minks »

Raven;1251765 wrote: I know that Canada is recruiting HARD for nurses over here. Must admit it IS a tempting offer, but what about Doctors? You guys recruiting for those as well?


I believe so, I know for a fact we have for 2011 a brand new hospital due to open up in the south side of the city, and guess what we can't operate it at full capacity as we don't have anyone to man it. Why no doctors, why cause they aren't paid enough.... ok so they have high expectations, I say REALITY CHECK, times are tough take a fing job and be happy you are employed.

Hun in a city this size right now (just over a million ok) we have 3 heart specialists/surgeons. 3 that is utterly pathetic. That is similar to other specialized areas as well. Just makes me sick.

Here is another warped concept, we go into the doctors office... they post signs, in the individual waiting rooms...."please do not come to the doctors office to discuss more than one issue, please do not bring all your issues to your physical make separate appointments" Ya you know why that is, it's so they can bill the government for each and every individual treatment. I don't know who is in the wrong over this, are the doctors greedy, is the government messed up. I have no idea.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Raven;1251748 wrote: Exactly. A national health program wont put the big BC/BS out of business. You will always have those who sniff at the thought of sharing a room with someone, and they can go to private hospitals. But lets get real here. Lets get the county hospitals and the teaching hospitals on board, along with Johns Hopkins, and get healthcare to everyone who needs it there! I just might come back then! :thinking: Do you know? With cheap Transatlantic flights, I'd actually support a system here in the UK where we fly over and treat US Cancer victems. How it could work, I'm not sure. :thinking:
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Post by Raven »

YZGI;1251764 wrote: The insurance companies are already doing this.



Do you think it is the responsibility of business owners to supply health care insurance?
The insurance companies are making it harder for small business owners to be able to afford it.
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Post by Raven »

minks;1251772 wrote: I believe so, I know for a fact we have for 2011 a brand new hospital due to open up in the south side of the city, and guess what we can't operate it at full capacity as we don't have anyone to man it. Why no doctors, why cause they aren't paid enough.... ok so they have high expectations, I say REALITY CHECK, times are tough take a fing job and be happy you are employed.



Hun in a city this size right now (just over a million ok) we have 3 heart specialists/surgeons. 3 that is utterly pathetic. That is similar to other specialized areas as well. Just makes me sick.



Here is another warped concept, we go into the doctors office... they post signs, in the individual waiting rooms...."please do not come to the doctors office to discuss more than one issue, please do not bring all your issues to your physical make separate appointments" Ya you know why that is, it's so they can bill the government for each and every individual treatment. I don't know who is in the wrong over this, are the doctors greedy, is the government messed up. I have no idea.
Crikey! You seriously need to get some reform of some kind over there! And some bloody doctors! Thats outrageous!
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Post by Raven »

oscar;1251773 wrote: Do you know? With cheap Transatlantic flights, I'd actually support a system here in the UK where we fly over and treat US Cancer victems. How it could work, I'm not sure. :thinking: Shame America into doing it themselves. Set up a charity thru the British consulates and advertise in the homeless shelters. Set up mobile clinics like we do here. And go to town. :-4
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Post by minks »

Raven;1251777 wrote: Crikey! You seriously need to get some reform of some kind over there! And some bloody doctors! Thats outrageous!


yep it sure is, and it makes me sick that Canadians try to make others believe it's so great of a health care system..... Come to Alberta, it's horrific. I think we should not be named the great white north but more the greedy white north.
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Post by YZGI »

Raven;1251774 wrote: The insurance companies are making it harder for small business owners to be able to afford it.
The profit mongering from all aspects of health care is the major problem. From the pharmaceutical companies, doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, lawsuit happy lawyers etc. etc.
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Post by Raven »

minks;1251781 wrote: yep it sure is, and it makes me sick that Canadians try to make others believe it's so great of a health care system..... Come to Alberta, it's horrific. I think we should not be named the great white north but more the greedy white north. I think maybe Alberta needs to recruit junior doctors from here....really. We have more doctors than jobs here.
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Post by minks »

Raven;1251783 wrote: I think maybe Alberta needs to recruit junior doctors from here....really. We have more doctors than jobs here.


Well perhaps we can start something eh. I wonder what starting pay is here and I wonder what kind of hoops they jr doctors have to jump through to get in here.
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Post by Raven »

YZGI;1251782 wrote: The profit mongering from all aspects of health care is the major problem. From the pharmaceutical companies, doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, lawsuit happy lawyers etc. etc.
The lawyers are the worst of the lot! You know they even advertise 100% of the award is yours. They sue for the fees as well!
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Post by Raven »

minks;1251784 wrote: Well perhaps we can start something eh. I wonder what starting pay is here and I wonder what kind of hoops they jr doctors have to jump through to get in here.
Dunno! But I can ask. I'm mates with a few!
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Post by hoppy »

Raven;1251780 wrote: Shame America into doing it themselves. Set up a charity thru the British consulates and advertise in the homeless shelters. Set up mobile clinics like we do here. And go to town. :-4


You people remind me of my childhood. Playmates used to say to each other, "My daddy can whip your daddy". Now it's "my doc is better'n your doc". Geeze Louize, grow up. We'll hammer out things without your help.
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Post by Raven »

hoppy;1251789 wrote: You people remind me of my childhood. Playmates used to say to each other, "My daddy can whip your daddy". Now it's "my doc is better'n your doc". Geeze Louize, grow up. We'll hammer out things without your help.
Hoppy, I'm an American too. I just have a different view of american healthcare than you do. Mine is a viewpoint from the inside. No need for insulting.
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Post by Lon »

There are many of us that are not opposed to some form of Universal Health Care for the U.S., we just do not like the proposed plans. There are a number of issues that are going unaddressed that would streamline national health care and lower costs. Caps on malpractice awards, better usage of R.N. Certified Nurse Midwives by the Medical Profession (wife is retired RN-CNM). It's a no brainer to think that the insurance industry could insure people with pre-existing illnesses without drastically increasing premiums for coverage. That's like insuring your house after the fire has started. It's also the mis handling of our Social Security System and it's funding. There was supposed to be a Trust Fund:wah:. The pay as you go is going, going, going-----------Gone. Maybe folks in the UK have more confidence in their leaders to more effectively administer their Social Welfare Programs than we have of ours.
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U.S. vs UK

Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1251789 wrote: You people remind me of my childhood. Playmates used to say to each other, "My daddy can whip your daddy". Now it's "my doc is better'n your doc". Geeze Louize, grow up. We'll hammer out things without your help.


You asked the question (post #2) - now you don't like the answer we're the ones playing children's games?

Every time you're faced with a straight question, do you expect small businesses to pay for their employee's medical care or do you like having people with cardboard signs begging for money to pay for cancer operations for example, you attack from a different angle - hows about coming up with answers to the questions instead of attacking those who raise them?
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YZGI
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Post by YZGI »

I am in no way saying Obama's plan is snag free but we have to start somewhere and then improve as we go. No plan ever submitted will get total approval. If we never get something on board we will never get closer to having a plan that helps the needy and wealthy alike.
hoppy
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U.S. vs UK

Post by hoppy »

Bryn Mawr;1251855 wrote: You asked the question (post #2) - now you don't like the answer we're the ones playing children's games?

Every time you're faced with a straight question, do you expect small businesses to pay for their employee's medical care or do you like having people with cardboard signs begging for money to pay for cancer operations for example, you attack from a different angle - hows about coming up with answers to the questions instead of attacking those who raise them?


Don't know how you guys do it but I've worked in many a place, large and small. All at least partially paid for an insurance plan.

Lon put things well. Why not fix what's broke rather than replace the whole thing with God only knows what. Show us a photo of that guy with the sign begging for money to pay for a cancer operation. Or was it another boo hoo story by the liberal left to cram more control down our throats.
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YZGI
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U.S. vs UK

Post by YZGI »

hoppy;1251900 wrote: Don't know how you guys do it but I've worked in many a place, large and small. All at least partially paid for an insurance plan.

Lon put things well. Why not fix what's broke rather than replace the whole thing with God only knows what. Show us a photo of that guy with the sign begging for money to pay for a cancer operation. Or was it another boo hoo story by the liberal left to cram more control down our throats.
Yes we could provide at least partial for years. Now the cost of insurance ( and health care) is so out of control that it's not feasable. Not to mention that some employees opt out (their decsion) because they can't afford the amount taken out of their check every week.



Around 10-15 yrs ago we provided insurance for our employees. For single person coverage it ran $75-$90 a month. No problem, now $400.00 a month and up. If an employee happens to have high blood pressure and need meds the sky is the limit.
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Lon
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Post by Lon »

What ever plan eventually evolves, it must be mandatory. Everyone must participate, no exceptions, and our politicians must be covered under the same plan, no exceptions. I would go for that.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

hoppy;1251900 wrote: Don't know how you guys do it but I've worked in many a place, large and small. All at least partially paid for an insurance plan.

Lon put things well. Why not fix what's broke rather than replace the whole thing with God only knows what. Show us a photo of that guy with the sign begging for money to pay for a cancer operation. Or was it another boo hoo story by the liberal left to cram more control down our throats.


From what we hear the proposal is not to rip out everything that is there and replace it with something untried but to add a new level for those who do not have, or wish not to have, medical insurance in an attempt to fix what is broke.
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Raven
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Post by Raven »

hoppy;1251900 wrote: Don't know how you guys do it but I've worked in many a place, large and small. All at least partially paid for an insurance plan.

Lon put things well. Why not fix what's broke rather than replace the whole thing with God only knows what. Show us a photo of that guy with the sign begging for money to pay for a cancer operation. Or was it another boo hoo story by the liberal left to cram more control down our throats.
Oh for cryin out loud! I posted an article by a UK journalist in the U.S.! She writes for the guardian. It's called a newspaper. She is called a journalist. And I challenge you to go down any street U.S.A and not see all the cardboard signs appealing for help of some kind! She wrote about what she saw. You see it too. Everyday! You have turned into a country of heartless ba$tards that see terrorists in everybody. You make me bloody sick! People like you make me ashamed to call myself American.

Hoppy I hope you never have to ask for anything from anybody.



Sorry about that. The sheer callousness of your response pi$$ed me right off. The America I grew up in wasnt like that, and I was bloody well raised better than that. You get through life together. TOGETHER!
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~

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