Let's discuss Congress' Healthcare Plan

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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

Originally Posted by Accountable

So we should abolish the Constitution? (not a rhetorical question)





No of course not, no need. With great forethought the constitution was put in place with the expected intention that it would change and so it has through the years.



What would you reckon is the reason nobody has suggested a constitutional amendment giving Congress responsibility for the nation's healthcare?



Because as Charleton Heston said about his gun that they would have to pry it from his cold dead hands I think the sentiment would be equally and as overwhelmingly against that kind of freedom with people we barely trust anymore.



Stay tuned while I dig up an article I read today that may surprise you.





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Fairview, Medica make a deal to cut costs

The new contract could change how health care is meted out and save millions.

By MAURA LERNER, Star Tribune

Last update: July 23, 2009 - 10:00 PM

Fairview Health Services could receive tens of millions of dollars if it manages to control costs and hit certain quality measures, under a new three-year contract with Medica, the two organizations announced Thursday.

Officials say the contract represents a dramatic change in how health care is paid for, and will encourage clinics to experiment with less costly types of patient care, such as nurse-only visits and group appointments.

"We concluded that the old approaches had pretty much run their course, that it was time for a new direction," said David Tilford, CEO of Medica, which covers health care for 1.5 million members, including 300,000 Fairview patients.

The contract with Fairview will shift the emphasis away from paying doctors for seeing patients and running tests, and more toward practices that result in healthy outcomes, said Mark Eustis, Fairview's CEO. "We can redesign care to be more efficient and effective," he said, by changing the financial incentives. "The cost of care, we believe, will go down because you're not doing unnecessary stuff."

Both executives called it an example of health-care reform from within the system. "Health care needs to be improved," said Tilford. "And rather than wait for other's efforts, we initiated our own."

Tilford said the idea began over a dinner conversation last year, when he and Eustis started talking about the problems facing health care. Usually adversaries across a negotiating table; this time, they agreed that something had to change.

Over the next few months, "we did something that most of our organizations are loathe to do," Tilford said: They shared data and hammered out a plan "that allows Fairview to change the way it delivers care."

Plan tested in pilot program

Last year, Medica spent "several million dollars" on a pilot project at Fairview's Eagan clinic to study ways to streamline care. The clinic is experimenting with a team approach that allows patients to use e-mail, phone calls, nurse-only visits and other ways to access care, when a doctor visit isn't needed.

Eustis said the new contract will encourage more of that kind of experimentation. "If we do that in today's environment, we get paid less," he said. But under the new arrangement, Fairview would share in any costs savings.

Neither Medica nor Fairview would disclose the financial details, citing proprietary interests. But Eustis said that Fairview accepted a lower across-the-board fee hike in exchange for the chance to earn millions more down the line. "We're basically saying that that's OK, because we're going to be able to demonstrate better clinical outcomes," he said. "If we do that and do it well, we should get savings."

Fairview's share of the savings could amount to tens of millions over the three-year contract, officials at both companies said. The rest of the savings would be returned to Medica customers as premium cuts, Tilford said.

At the same time, some of Fairview's incentive pay will be tied to how it scores on a series of quality measures. This kind of plan, known as pay for performance, already is common in the Twin Cities, and rewards doctors and clinics for how well they perform on a tracking system such as Minnesota Community Measurements. It tracks how well patients with chronic conditions, such as diabetes or depression, keep symptoms under control.

Officials insist they're not creating an incentive for doctors to scrimp on care, a criticism of earlier cost-cutting efforts in the 1980s and 1990s.

"It's a little bit different now," Eustis said. "Most people realize you have to improve clinical care at the same time you're reducing cost."

Both said they expect to work out similar agreements in the future.

 

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Nomad;1220985 wrote: Originally Posted by Accountable

So we should abolish the Constitution? (not a rhetorical question)





No of course not, no need. With great forethought the constitution was put in place with the expected intention that it would change and so it has through the years.



What would you reckon is the reason nobody has suggested a constitutional amendment giving Congress responsibility for the nation's healthcare?



Because as Charleton Heston said about his gun that they would have to pry it from his cold dead hands I think the sentiment would be equally and as overwhelmingly against that kind of freedom with people we barely trust anymore.



Stay tuned while I dig up an article I read today that may surprise you.






I'm confused. I thought you were for Obama's healthcare idea. (haven't read the article yet.) If you think we should keep the Constitution, and an amendment granting Congress the power that they are currently trying to steal would never fly, then we should not have a national health system.
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Accountable;1221020 wrote: I'm confused. I thought you were for Obama's healthcare idea. (haven't read the article yet.) If you think we should keep the Constitution, and an amendment granting Congress the power that they are currently trying to steal would never fly, then we should not have a national health system.


Im for health care being available to people and families that cant manage it or dont have the opportunity that most of us rely on. Thats not national healthcare. Its a supplement.

Its been said over and over again for most Americans nothing will change.

The article represents hospitals and insurance coming together with a viable plan that will service many of the problems that exist now.

They foresee a competetive force at work that could intrude on their monopoly and are freely making adjustments that will benefit patients and themselves. Thats a step in the right direction.

Theyre actively implementing changes that will reduce costs and provide more efficient care and elimiminate or reduce unnecessary procedures that will also initiate saving to all parties involved.

We here in MN are home to some of the largest insurance companies in the nation.

Blue Cross Blue Shield, Humana, United Healthcare as well as Medica. Others are sure to follow. Its the nature of the beast to compete.

Obamas plan is making a positive impact at the core of whats been wrong with the existing system. Change can be good.

I only ask you read the article with an open mind and make unbiased conclusions.
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That is good, and it looks like progress. Obamacare likely prodded the negotiations, and that's a good thing. Maybe people will start taking more notice of the details of their insurance plans, and that's a good thing.



But if the bill gets passed into law, all bets are off.
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Nomad;1221021 wrote: Im for health care being available to people and families that cant manage it or dont have the opportunity that most of us rely on. Thats not national healthcare. Its a supplement.

Its been said over and over again for most Americans nothing will change.

The article represents hospitals and insurance coming together with a viable plan that will service many of the problems that exist now.

They foresee a competetive force at work that could intrude on their monopoly and are freely making adjustments that will benefit patients and themselves. Thats a step in the right direction.

Theyre actively implementing changes that will reduce costs and provide more efficient care and elimiminate or reduce unnecessary procedures that will also initiate saving to all parties involved.

We here in MN are home to some of the largest insurance companies in the nation.

Blue Cross Blue Shield, Humana, United Healthcare as well as Medica. Others are sure to follow. Its the nature of the beast to compete.

Obamas plan is making a positive impact at the core of whats been wrong with the existing system. Change can be good.

I only ask you read the article with an open mind and make unbiased conclusions. Can I ask Nomad? Don't the insurence companies just make money out of people in your system?
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oscar;1221094 wrote: Can I ask Nomad? Don't the insurence companies just make money out of people in your system?


Yes and it looks like they think they need to make some adjustments in order to keep the lions share of business theyve accrued. Options should make them nervous.
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Nomad;1221134 wrote: Yes and it looks like they think they need to make some adjustments in order to keep the lions share of business theyve accrued. Options should make them nervous.
I find this interesting as we are looking at new idea's for government here.

What is Obamarama proposing about health care? I'm a little behind with US news at the moment. Is there any talk of a system like ours, where employed folk pay an Insurence stamp to the government out of their pay weekly or monthly and then they are covered for everything. If you had this system, the government would reap the contributions and not the insurence companies.
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oscar;1221139 wrote: I find this interesting as we are looking at new idea's for government here.

What is Obamarama proposing about health care? I'm a little behind with US news at the moment. Is there any talk of a system like ours, where employed folk pay an Insurence stamp to the government out of their pay weekly or monthly and then they are covered for everything. If you had this system, the government would reap the contributions and not the insurence companies.


Nothing is set in stone. Its a work in progress.
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Accountable;1220810 wrote: Not having insurance would likely have increased his chances of getting a transplant. We give life-saving medical care to the poor and indigent.



That's a convenient statistic taken in a vacuum. I wonder what the statistics show for families who follow a budget and maintain an emergency fund versus people who don't live within their means.


Is that not an incentive to declare your self bankrupt and get free medical care?

By your logic the incentive to be indigent and get free everything is already there in your system.

Perhaps you should go back to the old days when the poor starved and those who couldn't pay their bills had everything sold off to pay their debtors and were thrown out on the streets to starve. If people understood that the consequences of losing your job meant total destitution and starvation you would have a far harder working population and workers would be less prone to go on strike to demand benefits like pensions and medical care. After all it surely is not an employers responsibility to do any more than provide reasonable levels of pay-the least he can get away with obviously-why should he be expected to pay for medical care for sick employees when common sense means he should sack someone who turn up to work-it's not his fault the employee is too ill after all.

If you regard state funded medical care as unconstitutional why do you think employers should be forced to provide medical benefits? Is that also not constitutional?
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Accountable;1220810 wrote: Not having insurance would likely have increased his chances of getting a transplant. We give life-saving medical care to the poor and indigent.



That's a convenient statistic taken in a vacuum. I wonder what the statistics show for families who follow a budget and maintain an emergency fund versus people who don't live within their means.


Is that not an incentive to declare your self bankrupt and get free medical care?

By your logic the incentive to be indigent and get free everything is already there in your system.

Perhaps you should go back to the old days when the poor starved and those who couldn't pay their bills had everything sold off to pay their debtors and were thrown out on the streets to starve. If people understood that the consequences of losing your job meant total destitution and starvation you would have a far harder working population and workers would be less prone to go on strike to demand benefits like pensions and medical care. After all it surely is not an employers responsibility to do any more than provide reasonable levels of pay-the least he can get away with obviously-why should he be expected to pay for medical care for sick employees when common sense means he should sack someone who turn up to work-it's not his fault the employee is too ill after all.

If you regard state funded medical care as unconstitutional and socialism by the back door why do you think employers should be forced to provide medical benefits? Is that also not constitutional and socialism by the back door when government dictates what an employer must provide? (assuming they do of course I don't actually know the legal position with regard to employee benefits in the states)
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gmc;1221443 wrote: Is that not an incentive to declare your self bankrupt and get free medical care?

By your logic the incentive to be indigent and get free everything is already there in your system. Yes it's a strong incentive, one that many people go for. Some Americans choose not to try to better themselves (for lack of a better phrase) because the short-term costs of giving up the gov't teat outweigh the perceived benefit (largely an effect of low self-esteem, imo).



Now Congress is capitalizing on that to try to gather even more voters under their protective wings; it helps ensure reelection.



gmc;1221443 wrote: Perhaps you should go back to the old days when the poor starved and those who couldn't pay their bills had everything sold off to pay their debtors and were thrown out on the streets to starve. If people understood that the consequences of losing your job meant total destitution and starvation you would have a far harder working population and workers would be less prone to go on strike to demand benefits like pensions and medical care. After all it surely is not an employers responsibility to do any more than provide reasonable levels of pay-the least he can get away with obviously-why should he be expected to pay for medical care for sick employees when common sense means he should sack someone who turn up to work-it's not his fault the employee is too ill after all. Standard gmc response as expected. We in the US have safety nets for those who can't care for themselves and those who lose everything due to poor or foolish life decisions. It's not an employer's responsibility to pay anything beyond a reasonable wage for services rendered. It makes good investment sense but it's certainly doesn't need to be an obligation. Helping a sick employee, or better yet helping them stay healthy, costs less than your perpetual sarcastic suggestion of sacking them at every whim and training up a new hire.



gmc;1221443 wrote: If you regard state funded medical care as unconstitutional and socialism by the back door why do you think employers should be forced to provide medical benefits?I don't think employers should be forced to provide medical benefits. That's Obama. Empoyers started providing insurance as a benefit of employment; now it's seen as a right. Obama wants employers to stop that benefit so he can gather them under the benevolent protection of the federal gov't, full stop. If he were serious about employees not losing their coverage when they change jobs, he'd try to convince his precious unions to provide group coverage. That's not even on the table. gmc;1221443 wrote: Is that also not constitutional and socialism by the back door when government dictates what an employer must provide? (assuming they do of course I don't actually know the legal position with regard to employee benefits in the states)Absolutely it is.
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posted by accountable

Yes it's a strong incentive, one that many people go for. Some Americans choose not to try to better themselves (for lack of a better phrase) because the short-term costs of giving up the gov't teat outweigh the perceived benefit (largely an effect of low self-esteem, imo).

Now Congress is capitalizing on that to try to gather even more voters under their protective wings; it helps ensure reelection.


It's an ever present problem. That's why the aims of the welfare act was also to help people get themselves out of that trap. The old time socialists had little time for scroungers neither do most people in the UK. That some people take advantage doesn't make the basic idea flawed the problem is how best to actually do it. Our social histories are radically different from yours and so are the resulting attitudes and solutions. That's why doing comparisons never get anywhere although I could bore you to death offering theories why we are so different-but I won't. There is an awful lot about the way we do things that you should not copy just as there are many things about the way you do things we would find appalling. We have serious problems that neither of the main political parties are facing up to. We are in deep **** and yet we give billions to bankers that have proven themselves to be a bunch of tossers.

posted by accountable

Standard gmc response as expected. We in the US have safety nets for those who can't care for themselves and those who lose everything due to poor or foolish life decisions. It's not an employer's responsibility to pay anything beyond a reasonable wage for services rendered. It makes good investment sense but it's certainly doesn't need to be an obligation. Helping a sick employee, or better yet helping them stay healthy, costs less than your perpetual sarcastic suggestion of sacking them at every whim and training up a new hire.


Now you have safety nets. In the olden days you didn't and that is exactly what used to happen and many didn't see why the unemployed or people in financial difficulty should receive any help at all.-just look at the opposition to Roosevelt's new deal and how quickly it was done away with at the first opportunity. the arguments for and against are surprisingly similar to those mooted now. Including the one about how such government interference will destroy American democracy and if you give more money to the rich it will percolate down. Really you are just having a debate that got stymied two generations ago. Your right wing won out ours lost.

Paying a reasonable wage may make good investment sense but the US had a minimum wage long before we did. Clearly at some point the govt saw a need to make it an obligation for employers to pay a reasonable minimum. Same with health and safety at work. good employers do it anyway the rest have to be forced to and need the big stick of being sued. You have a most litigious society presumably because many employers are shits who willingly exploit their workers without regard for their health or well being or for the effect their activities have on the environment around them.

The question is not whether you should have government interference in the market place-you have already had that discussion and accept the need for it- but rather how much and what do you want to achieve. Even the decision not to go in for social engineering (which we bought in to wholesale) is social engineering. You can't really talk about healthcare without looking at the reasons so many americans don't have cover-clearly many of your countrymen think there is a problem and want something done about it. But you should tell them to stop looking for answers abroad-all the opponents do is highlight the flaws and the supporters pick up the good points and broadside each other with statistics at shouting distance and both achieve nothing.
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gmc;1221767 wrote:

Paying a reasonable wage may make good investment sense but the US had a minimum wage long before we did. Clearly at some point the govt saw a need to make it an obligation for employers to pay a reasonable minimum. LOL. Minimum wage is a good for getting votes. It makes the politician sound like he cares and costs nothing. Almost every business pays higher than minimum wage for their entry-level workers. It's useless and pointless except around election time.



gmc wrote: But you should tell them to stop looking for answers abroad-all the opponents do is highlight the flaws and the supporters pick up the good points and broadside each other with statistics at shouting distance and both achieve nothing.The best way to get better ideas is to see how others are doing it. It's called benchmarking. Our problem is that we haven't even come to a consensus what the actual problem is, but some are trying to solve it anyway.
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Accountable;1221794 wrote: LOL. Minimum wage is a good for getting votes. It makes the politician sound like he cares and costs nothing. Almost every business pays higher than minimum wage for their entry-level workers. It's useless and pointless except around election time.



The best way to get better ideas is to see how others are doing it. It's called benchmarking. Our problem is that we haven't even come to a consensus what the actual problem is, but some are trying to solve it anyway.


We had the bleating bout how it would put small businesses out of business and of course the employers that have managed to find ways around it-most noticeably in the hospitality industry. In the UK it did actually raise the standard of living for many. Would wages be so high in the US without it? Great question for an economics exam paper somewhere.

The thing is most of the arguments I've seen on this forum and elsewhere don't seem to look at the mechanics of it but rather dispute about the need-which is what you just said- good grief I think we agree about something.

Politicians don't need to understand the problems they just need answers and the ability to look and sound good on TV. Mind you ours don't even look and sound good on TV and they have no answers either.

Never mind I see sarah palin is looking to stand for president. At least your politicians are funny to watch.
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Helluva lot easier on the eye than Maggie as well. ;)
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Accountable;1221837 wrote: Helluva lot easier on the eye than Maggie as well. ;)


How serious a contender is she likely to be? I saw an American (as in she was an american reporting on the US rather than a British correspondent based there) correspondent pointing out that the US news we get in the UK is highly biased to the east coast and doesn't really give a clear idea of the reality that she speaks for a large section of the US public in the mid west and southern states. In europe her religious beliefs would make her a non starter.
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gmc;1221846 wrote: How serious a contender is she likely to be? I saw an American (as in she was an american reporting on the US rather than a British correspondent based there) correspondent pointing out that the US news we get in the UK is highly biased to the east coast and doesn't really give a clear idea of the reality that she speaks for a large section of the US public in the mid west and southern states. In europe her religious beliefs would make her a non starter.
Too bad. It's one of the few signs that she might be honest. That and the fact that she was left hanging by the GOP and constantly harassed by the dems. I don't know how many votes that'll get her but it moves her up a notch or two on my respect-o-meter.



I actually haven't paid that much attention to her. She's really not in the news much down here in Texas.
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Accountable;1221869 wrote: Too bad. It's one of the few signs that she might be honest. That and the fact that she was left hanging by the GOP and constantly harassed by the dems. I don't know how many votes that'll get her but it moves her up a notch or two on my respect-o-meter.



I actually haven't paid that much attention to her. She's really not in the news much down here in Texas.


Nor do I but I occasionally watch CNN or flick though american news programmes on line to cross reference the news. McCain and Palin were a combination you would dismiss as unbelievable if it was a film.

Whistleblower tells of America's hidden nightmare for its sick poor | World news | The Observer

Three cowboys were hanging out in the bunkhouse. "I know that smart aleck Tex, said the first. He's going to start bragging about that new foreign car he bought as soon as he gets back." "Not Tex, the second cowboy replied. He'll always be just a good ol' boy. When he walks in, I'm sure all he'll say is hello." "I know Tex better than either of you, said the third. He's so smart, he'll figure out a way to do both. Here he comes now." Tex swung open the bunkhouse door and shouted, "Audi, partners!"

Ha! and you thought the only texas joke i knew was George Bush
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:wah: The joke's almost as funny as the propaganda article. :wah:
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Accountable;1221917 wrote: :wah: The joke's almost as funny as the propaganda article. :wah:


It's in a british newspaper. Why would they bother with a propaganda article on something that doesn't affect us? They haven't shown michael moores film in the cinemas for the simple reason the subject matter is only of passing interest. Anyway presumably the whistle blower has been sued for libel by now for spouting such obvious propaganda.
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The guy walks in, looks around, makes huge leaping assumptions, then uses those assumptions as a basis for the rest of the article. It's not my fault that British newspaper didn't catch it.
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Accountable;1222219 wrote: The guy walks in, looks around, makes huge leaping assumptions, then uses those assumptions as a basis for the rest of the article. It's not my fault that British newspaper didn't catch it.


So what was going on then some kind of hillbilly convention? If it wasn't a free clinic what was it?

Incidentally the guy that wrote the article wasn't the one that walked in on the clinic or used to work for cigna or appeared before the congressional committee.

Knock yourself out. Why do you assume it is propaganda without checking it out?
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I read the article.There was a free clinic. That's a shameful thing?? People heard about a free checkup and came running. That would happen in Beverly Hill, for chrissakes. He said people came from as far away as Georgia. Did he bother to ask if they came specifically for the free clinic? More likely they were in the area and heard about it, and figured they'd drop by ... just like the guy did!



But the article made it sound like one of those scenes from Ethiopia or Somalia, with bloated-bellied babies too tired to wave away the hundred of flies that crawl over their faces.



He drove by, he assigned his preconceptions, he made judgments. He got the article published. God bless capitalism.
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Accountable;1222341 wrote: I read the article.There was a free clinic. That's a shameful thing?? People heard about a free checkup and came running. That would happen in Beverly Hill, for chrissakes. He said people came from as far away as Georgia. Did he bother to ask if they came specifically for the free clinic? More likely they were in the area and heard about it, and figured they'd drop by ... just like the guy did!



But the article made it sound like one of those scenes from Ethiopia or Somalia, with bloated-bellied babies too tired to wave away the hundred of flies that crawl over their faces.



He drove by, he assigned his preconceptions, he made judgments. He got the article published. God bless capitalism.


It's up to Americans to decide if it is shameful or not-no one else can do it for you. We have no need for such free clinics-everybody can see a doctor if they need to without worrying about the cost. Believe it or not people do actually understand that it is not "free" since they pay through their taxes but at the point of use you do not pay. The need for charity like that would be (and was back in the old days) viewed as degrading to those who had to accept it and a disgrace that a nation couldn't provide for it's people regardless of their place in society. You have to decide what you think about it.

Dentistry is different I have to pay for treatment at a NHS dentist and can go privately if I choose. (I don't)

Were you completely destitute (and people can end up that way through no fault of theirs) do you think your attitude to healthcare reform be any different?
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gmc;1222537 wrote: It's up to Americans to decide if it is shameful or not-no one else can do it for you. We have no need for such free clinics-everybody can see a doctor if they need to without worrying about the cost.YOUR WHOLE SYSTEM IS ONE BIG FREE MEDICAL CLINIC! :yh_rotfl

gmc wrote: Believe it or not people do actually understand that it is not "free" since they pay through their taxes but at the point of use you do not pay. That's exactly like these free clinics. Everything there was paid for by others. The difference is that there was no threat of imprisonment for not contributing.

gmc wrote: The need for charity like that would be (and was back in the old days) viewed as degrading to those who had to accept it and a disgrace that a nation couldn't provide for it's people regardless of their place in society. You have to decide what you think about it.The free clinic in the article is better, morally. Not everyone contributes to charity. Not everyone is required to pay taxes. The difference is that those who contribute to charity can give or not as they choose. It comes from the heart. Those who are required to pay taxes must give or face punishment. If they don't give they face punishment (unless as in America you run the tax system). The recipients may feel shame for themselves; that's good because they will only take if they need. They aren't looked on with shame by the contributors, because the contributors give from the heart. The contributors themselves are viewed positively by society for helping those in temporary need.



I have to be honest. I think it's shameful that your society think it is degrading to accept help from a neighbor, but perfectly okay to belly up to the government trough.





gmc wrote: Dentistry is different I have to pay for treatment at a NHS dentist and can go privately if I choose. (I don't)You do realize you're perpetuating a stereotype? :sneaky:



gmc wrote: Were you completely destitute (and people can end up that way through no fault of theirs) do you think your attitude to healthcare reform be any different?And here we are again. The USA is built upon a basic distrust of government and confidence in the individual to help himself and help his neighbor. That's apparently the opposite of your culture.



Ready to run another lap? :)
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America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009



To provide affordable, quality health care for all Americans and reduce the growth in health care spending, and for other purposes.





Text of HR 3200



My question: Which part of the US Constitution allows for the federal government to provide affordable, quality health care for all Americans?
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Posted by accountable

YOUR WHOLE SYSTEM IS ONE BIG FREE MEDICAL CLINIC!


That's exactly like these free clinics. Everything there was paid for by others. The difference is that there was no threat of imprisonment for not contributing.


Our NHS is funded through national insurance contributions. Everybody has access to it regardless of income and they pay nothing at the actual point of use. People can go privately is they want but not many do. Personally I would let people opt out if they want on the understanding that they cannot opt back in and if for any reason they use the NHS they pay the full cost. It costs the NHS a lot each year correcting the horrendous mistakes made by the private sector-usually people who have gone for cosmetic surgery privately. I guarantee if that choice was given very few would actually take it. I've paid in to it for over thirty years and can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have been to a doctor. On one level I am paying for others-But you really miss the point I think. I'm not paying for others I'm paying so that if myself or any of my family need medical help there it's available without the worry of how I will pay the bill.

It's a conscious decision that everybody contributes as they can and receives as they need. From each according to their means to each according to their need. perhaps you have to have been in europe immediately post war when so many had made such sacrifices for their country to understand the attitude that government would serve the people not the other way around and yes also make things better by rebuilding the shattered cities and schools and combating poverty and giving people more opportunity. Whether we succeeded or not is a whole different debate Our NHS is very much a bottom up creation not something imposed on us.

The welfare state was brought in post ww2 and what swung the election was the overseas votes of the troops. people who had lived through the misery pf two world wars and the inter war years were not going to go back to the way things had been. If you think I am left wing you should try speaking to that generation, even now the NHS is something that politicians threaten to privatise at the risk of losing votes. just ask Maggie Thatcher, if you want to know why she is so hated it's because was seen as uncaring.

If the people want social change and things like universal healthcare who has the right to gainsay them? If "we the people" want this and are calling for change who has the right to stop them? What are their motives?

The free clinic in the article is better, morally. Not everyone contributes to charity. Not everyone is required to pay taxes. The difference is that those who contribute to charity can give or not as they choose. It comes from the heart. Those who are required to pay taxes must give or face punishment. If they don't give they face punishment (unless as in America you run the tax system). The recipients may feel shame for themselves; that's good because they will only take if they need. They aren't looked on with shame by the contributors, because the contributors give from the heart. The contributors themselves are viewed positively by society for helping those in temporary need.


That's one point of view, another is that it is shameful that in the richest country on earth so many are destitute and can't afford healthcare.

Like I say it's a debate you need to have amongst yourselves

I have to be honest. I think it's shameful that your society think it is degrading to accept help from a neighbor, but perfectly okay to belly up to the government trough.


I pay the government and elect them. They are not doing any favours for anyone. We do have charities of course since govt can't do everything but part of their function is to help people help themselves. Mind you I would not claim we have a perfect system because we don't. there's a lot of issues not least the cost of it all.

You do realize you're perpetuating a stereotype?


What would that be? I'm scots, most of the early settlers in virginia and the like are scots and irish. just contemplate a nation of red necks and you might get the idea. Like most of my countrymen my politics are left of centre on social issues and right wing on others. The so called father of capitalism adam smith was scots but he was surprisingly liberal in a lot of things-not surprising considering the times he grew up in and where he lived. I try and refrain from having a stereotypical view of americans.

And here we are again. The USA is built upon a basic distrust of government and confidence in the individual to help himself and help his neighbor. That's apparently the opposite of your culture.


Nope, more similar than you think. we distrust the bastards as well but we will sort them out and have them dancing to the tune we want. You forget who invented parliamentary democracy and gave you most of the ideas in your constitution. You are just in thrall to your right wing. the ones that think we the people don't know what they need or want and are trying to persuade them they have no right to question the way things are done.

Ready to run another lap?


Any time you like -but I suspect we won't agree on much:D
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I think you & I have addressed all of these points with each other before, and you clearly haven't been paying attention to mine. ;)



I'd be thrilled to kick back and be an audience member for a bit while someone else weighs in.
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Post by gmc »

Accountable;1222902 wrote: I think you & I have addressed all of these points with each other before, and you clearly haven't been paying attention to mine. ;)



I'd be thrilled to kick back and be an audience member for a bit while someone else weighs in.


:D I could say much the same. Where does it say in your constitution that if the people decide the govt can't provide universal healthcare?
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gmc;1222925 wrote: :D I could say much the same. Where does it say in your constitution that if the people decide the govt can't provide universal healthcare?
The people decide by adding an amendment to the Constitution allowing congress' grubby claws into it. It's a slow process, but it should be. This isn't signing a one-year service contract that allows the service guy to make limited decisions you can override, then cancel if you change your mind. This contract is permanent (imposed on future generations like it or not), open-ended, and expandable without further permission required.
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I've just pretty much shut myself off to the world and have stuck to just watching ncis... lol
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Accountable;1222958 wrote: The people decide by adding an amendment to the Constitution allowing congress' grubby claws into it. It's a slow process, but it should be. This isn't signing a one-year service contract that allows the service guy to make limited decisions you can override, then cancel if you change your mind. This contract is permanent (imposed on future generations like it or not), open-ended, and expandable without further permission required.


So if after due process there is such an amendment I take it you would be quite happy to accept it? Kind of sounds like it's going to take another election to drive it home that people do want a change. Both our countries have a similar problem-professional politicians that are about as much use as a dead budgie in a **** factory.

Was watching a documentary about the alamo (sheer coincidence I have an eclectic interest in history) It always amazes me how few people are actually involved in events that shape nations. Never realised the yellow rose of texas referred to a mulatto women.
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Omni_Skittles;1222961 wrote: I've just pretty much shut myself off to the world and have stuck to just watching ncis... lolHey darlin'! :-6

Shut off for awhile to catch your breath, but be sure & come back. You're too rare in this world to waste.



gmc;1223056 wrote: So if after due process there is such an amendment I take it you would be quite happy to accept it? Kind of sounds like it's going to take another election to drive it home that people do want a change. Both our countries have a similar problem-professional politicians that are about as much use as a dead budgie in a **** factory.



Was watching a documentary about the alamo (sheer coincidence I have an eclectic interest in history) It always amazes me how few people are actually involved in events that shape nations. Never realised the yellow rose of texas referred to a mulatto women.
Happy? Of course not. But I'd accept it.



I think it was more than half of the colonists were loyal or neutral in the late 1700's. Can you imagine the civil wars if everybody were civically active? :eek:
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Accountable;1223132 wrote: Hey darlin'! :-6

Shut off for awhile to catch your breath, but be sure & come back. You're too rare in this world to waste.



Happy? Of course not. But I'd accept it.



I think it was more than half of the colonists were loyal or neutral in the late 1700's. Can you imagine the civil wars if everybody were civically active? :eek:


Yes. It's when the quiet ones who prefer to live and let live get stirred up you get real trouble. It's one of those what if questions isn't it. What if the british hadn't been so heavy handed and antagonised those colonists that were neutral in their opinions? Would the French revolution have happened in quite the same way etc etc. It's also a bit pointless speculating.

When you look at history things change not when "great" men do their deeds it's when ordinary people get stirred up and decide to do something. It's more interesting now to see what happens in that thanks to military developments it's actually easier to suppress a populace if necessary. On the other hand people aren't so isolated and even less likely to just put up with things. When you look at the american declaration of independence (the we the people bit) it's staggering just how eclectic all the ideas behind it are you can trace it all the way back in time to the greeks and romans.

The debates are essentially all the same now as they have always been. We have the right to expect this-no you don't have the right to expect anything from the government. Can you imagine how many civil wars there would be without due political process however flawed it might be?
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We can watch the third world for that. I wonder how many more advanced societies have their elementary school kids watching us like an ant farm. :yh_think
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Accountable;1223336 wrote: We can watch the third world for that. I wonder how many more advanced societies have their elementary school kids watching us like an ant farm. :yh_think


I don't think people here in the UK and europe necessarily see ourselves as more advanced than the US except in areas like universal healthcare and gun control:sneaky:
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hey, gun control is bogus. Farmers with rifles is what helped us when our freedom from the british... except i'm native american so i already was free so... yea... and health care? well, my dad went to college earned a degree, works his butt off and his job gives him enough health care to take care of three surgeries so far... so hmm i just don't want a freaking socialistic government!!!!! :-5:-5:-5
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Omni_Skittles;1223657 wrote: hey, gun control is bogus. Farmers with rifles is what helped us when our freedom from the british... except i'm native american so i already was free so... yea... and health care? well, my dad went to college earned a degree, works his butt off and his job gives him enough health care to take care of three surgeries so far... so hmm i just don't want a freaking socialistic government!!!!! :-5:-5:-5
Yesterday John Stossel said that no other group in America has received more government help than the American Indian, and no group is in worse shape. Do you agree?
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Accountable;1223709 wrote: Yesterday John Stossel said that no other group in America has received more government help than the American Indian, and no group is in worse shape. Do you agree?this is from personal experience and not statistics or research... I believe that native americans become trapped like a lot of people who are getting money from the government. I believe in working for everything you earn but when you give people money and the only way they can get this money is by being poor and not working, well of course they are going to keep from working. They become trapped believing that the only way to survive is through money from the government... I've refused to get any help from the government that deals with my race. i think that it's time to start taking away funding, i know from personal experience that my tribe would be better off if we left the comfort of the reservations and started being leaders. Native americans are in worse shape and i do believe strongly it's because of all the money we are given. this even happens to rich kids too lol like my siblings for example... none of us really have to work for anything... our parent's give us everything we want and need. because of this sometimes we lose ambition to work or finish anything we start... but anyways i'm not sure that did with anything but you asked lol
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Omni_Skittles;1223725 wrote: this is from personal experience and not statistics or research... I believe that native americans become trapped like a lot of people who are getting money from the government. I believe in working for everything you earn but when you give people money and the only way they can get this money is by being poor and not working, well of course they are going to keep from working. They become trapped believing that the only way to survive is through money from the government... I've refused to get any help from the government that deals with my race. i think that it's time to start taking away funding, i know from personal experience that my tribe would be better off if we left the comfort of the reservations and started being leaders. Native americans are in worse shape and i do believe strongly it's because of all the money we are given. this even happens to rich kids too lol like my siblings for example... none of us really have to work for anything... our parent's give us everything we want and need. because of this sometimes we lose ambition to work or finish anything we start... but anyways i'm not sure that did with anything but you asked lol
Thanks! It's precisely the point I try to make time an again. We hear about the proud warriors, hunters, and farmers who settled this land before the Europeans came. The stories of how the early settlers would have died had they not learned so much of survival from the original inhabitants.



When I was in school, I would wonder why they stayed on the reservations, and why they weren't able to make it there. They had the skills in the memories of the elders, yet they lived and continue to live poorly. The answer is clear, at least to me. They bought into the invaders' bigoted belief that the White Way was the best way, and their way was savage. They stopped believing in themselves. Rather than seeing value and intelligence in each other as individuals, they only saw the group, or the skin color, and accepted the judgment others (the government) had put upon them.



That's what I see is happening today with us. With the enthusiastic help of some who see themselves as more equal than others, we are convincing ourselves that we can't handle life without the government's help. I honestly believe that if we don't shake off this weight from our societal sould (I'll be grateful for a better phrase) the entire country will be as the native Americans have become - hopeless and hopelessly dependent. Oh not everyone. There will always be the shining exceptions to the rule, such as our dear Skittles, but the country as a whole will be a shell only resembling what it once was, comforting itself with memories of past grandeur.
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Accountable;1223736 wrote: Thanks! It's precisely the point I try to make time an again. We hear about the proud warriors, hunters, and farmers who settled this land before the Europeans came. The stories of how the early settlers would have died had they not learned so much of survival from the original inhabitants.



When I was in school, I would wonder why they stayed on the reservations, and why they weren't able to make it there. They had the skills in the memories of the elders, yet they lived and continue to live poorly. The answer is clear, at least to me. They bought into the invaders' bigoted belief that the White Way was the best way, and their way was savage. They stopped believing in themselves. Rather than seeing value and intelligence in each other as individuals, they only saw the group, or the skin color, and accepted the judgment others (the government) had put upon them.



That's what I see is happening today with us. With the enthusiastic help of some who see themselves as more equal than others, we are convincing ourselves that we can't handle life without the government's help. I honestly believe that if we don't shake off this weight from our societal sould (I'll be grateful for a better phrase) the entire country will be as the native Americans have become - hopeless and hopelessly dependent. Oh not everyone. There will always be the shining exceptions to the rule, such as our dear Skittles, but the country as a whole will be a shell only resembling what it once was, comforting itself with memories of past grandeur.I know being poor is a bad thing... but that's the beauty of America. Work hard and you'll go somewhere! you can't for a second believe your trapped... or that you have to depend on others such as the government. If the government would just stop with the bailing outs, and stay the heck out of our buisnesses... i believe inventors will come about, new inovative ways to live would happen, people would strive to work and we won't depend on our "mother" so much. lol
Smoke signals ftw!
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Omni_Skittles;1223743 wrote: I know being poor is a bad thing... but that's the beauty of America. Work hard and you'll go somewhere! you can't for a second believe your trapped... or that you have to depend on others such as the government. If the government would just stop with the bailing outs, and stay the heck out of our buisnesses... i believe inventors will come about, new inovative ways to live would happen, people would strive to work and we won't depend on our "mother" so much. lol
:yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap



I only add that having no money is not necessarily the same as being poor. It's poverty of spirit that's the real killer.
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Omni_Skittles;1223725 wrote: this is from personal experience and not statistics or research... I believe that native americans become trapped like a lot of people who are getting money from the government. I believe in working for everything you earn but when you give people money and the only way they can get this money is by being poor and not working, well of course they are going to keep from working. They become trapped believing that the only way to survive is through money from the government... I've refused to get any help from the government that deals with my race. i think that it's time to start taking away funding, i know from personal experience that my tribe would be better off if we left the comfort of the reservations and started being leaders. Native americans are in worse shape and i do believe strongly it's because of all the money we are given. this even happens to rich kids too lol like my siblings for example... none of us really have to work for anything... our parent's give us everything we want and need. because of this sometimes we lose ambition to work or finish anything we start... but anyways i'm not sure that did with anything but you asked lol


Are you not being a bit hard on your people? Being almost exterminated and then forced to live on reservations must have done an awful lot to encourage low self esteem and would in anyone. I have an impression that it is only in relatively recent times that it would be possible for a native american to make any kind of live for themselves off the reservation because of prejudice. Mind you since that is impression is garnered from american films and the occasional documentary I have serious doubts as to its validity.

posted by accountable

When I was in school, I would wonder why they stayed on the reservations, and why they weren't able to make it there. They had the skills in the memories of the elders, yet they lived and continue to live poorly. The answer is clear, at least to me. They bought into the invaders' bigoted belief that the White Way was the best way, and their way was savage. They stopped believing in themselves. Rather than seeing value and intelligence in each other as individuals, they only saw the group, or the skin color, and accepted the judgment others (the government) had put upon them.


If prejudice is so rife then it doesn't matter how much self esteem you have you are sometimes banging your head against a brick wall. I always remember a fellow scot in london not being offered a job where I was working at the time. The reason was he had been unemployed for over a year the managers reasoning being he couldn't have been trying hard enough. This about someone who had left home and was living in digs till he got a job or his money ran out in that case it was prejudice against the unemployed the theory being you were only unemployed if you choose to be and a complete inability to understand that in some areas there really were no jobs and if you have no money you can't leave to go job hunting as being homeless makes things even worse. try getting a job with no address to give an employer and see how far you get. Add racism and stereotypes and you are really up against it. Way off topic though.

I occasionally watch the american news programmes looks like you are all having fun with this but for us it was relatively easy. Demand for change was so overwhelming that there was really no argument the opposition to universal healthcare could make against the concept and it is still a hot topic in our elections. The difference is people on the whole do not want the profit motive anywhere near the provision of medical care-there would be riots in the streets if any govt tried it and they wouldn't get elected in the first place if it was part of their manifesto. Those who want to privatise the NHS are seen as the loony right wing fringe in british politics. There is a real difference between the US and UK on this kind of thimng. To us it was a grass roots bottom up demand for change not something imposed on us be a left wing socialist govt. It was social democracy not communism- which had been thoroughly discredited long ago. it's really weird watching Americans panic about a socialist takeover the words are the same and the meanings are the same even in american dictionaries but the connotations are so very different. It's hard to even discuss there are such differences.

.

Maybe obama is going to have accept failure this time and get himself re-elected with a big enough vote so he can justifiably claim it is the will of the people and shove reform through.
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It's a new time, a new world... what's our excuse now?
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Omni_Skittles;1224304 wrote: It's a new time, a new world... what's our excuse now?


Good point and it's not as if you went quietly. Lack of self esteem and not trying becomes a habit after a while-a self fulfilling prophecy that saps the spirit. It's really hard to break the cycle of despair.

However, do you think it is something govt can help with, should is actually do so and of so how? Bit off topic , so I hope you'll excuse me but I'm curious as to what you think. Bear in mind I'm a foreigner so your background is completely alien to mine.

or perhaps not

Unknown Scottish History :: John Ross Cherokee Chief

Bit of scots/american indiian romance for you

Glencoe Lochan Mountain Walk
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gmc;1224322 wrote: Good point and it's not as if you went quietly. Lack of self esteem and not trying becomes a habit after a while-a self fulfilling prophecy that saps the spirit. It's really hard to break the cycle of despair.



However, do you think it is something govt can help with, should is actually do so and of so how? Bit off topic , so I hope you'll excuse me but I'm curious as to what you think. Bear in mind I'm a foreigner so your background is completely alien to mine.



or perhaps not



Unknown Scottish History :: John Ross Cherokee Chief



Bit of scots/american indiian romance for you



Glencoe Lochan Mountain Walk
I'm interested in Skittles' answer as well, but I will way that we're not off the broader primary topic, that government help is government harm (USA exclusive).
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gmc;1224322 wrote: Good point and it's not as if you went quietly. Lack of self esteem and not trying becomes a habit after a while-a self fulfilling prophecy that saps the spirit. It's really hard to break the cycle of despair.

However, do you think it is something govt can help with, should is actually do so and of so how? Bit off topic , so I hope you'll excuse me but I'm curious as to what you think. Bear in mind I'm a foreigner so your background is completely alien to mine.

or perhaps not

Unknown Scottish History :: John Ross Cherokee Chief

Bit of scots/american indiian romance for you

Glencoe Lochan Mountain WalkI'm going to do some research before i shoot my mouth off... lol i tend to do that and i get in trouble for it... but i will say welfare is a trap to us, government funding is a trap as well... My grandmother breathed and lived off of welfare and so do a lot of other people... and what are the standards to live on welfare? ya got to be po. lol or poor to the caseworkers standards. And i guess i'd have to factor in education... or lack of it... it's not a simple answer :-3 i have more questions now then i have answers..
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Omni_Skittles;1224916 wrote: I'm going to do some research before i shoot my mouth off... lol i tend to do that and i get in trouble for it... but i will say welfare is a trap to us, government funding is a trap as well... My grandmother breathed and lived off of welfare and so do a lot of other people... and what are the standards to live on welfare? ya got to be po. lol or poor to the caseworkers standards. And i guess i'd have to factor in education... or lack of it... it's not a simple answer :-3 i have more questions now then i have answers..


It's one of the things I like about this forum. some of the posters make you think about why you think the way you do. It's startling how often you have an opinion but when asked you realise you have an opinion you haven't thought about and can't explain.
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Can the government help with a cylcle of despair? of course... should they? Nope. I don't think relying on the government would solve it. The indians have a tribal government... makes us seperate from the rest of the world... we're like a nation within a nation. And no one really knows how the money given to our people is really spent. If i wanted to go to school with the help of the indian nation i'd have to go to a second rate school that the government chooses... i wouldn't be learning half the things i am now and i'd be stuck in a contract that would say i'd work for the navajo nation a certain x amount of years... I remember living on the reservation in a housing facility by the government... they were nice houses... but you had to be like super poor to live in them and they were always in my family's affairs... ALWAYS... kind of annoying... so it's like you didn't really have freedom and my mom had to quit work so our bills wouldn't go up... Here's my thing... i've witnessed more navajos who depend on the governments money raise pot smoking kids and lazy children then those who were hard working navajos who don't want a dime from the government raise hard working kids who are now in universitys working to be engineers, teachers, and such... anyways that's from my experience...
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