Sex and gender recognition

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spot
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by spot »

I had a letter in the post yesterday which started

I am currently trying to decide who to vote for in the coming election.

As a woman I am especially concerned to find out how your Party plans to ensure the safeguarding, rights and dignity of females, of all ages, are not removed in order to support an ideology based on mantras and falsehoods.


While not posting the remainder of the letter here, I'd quite like to discuss my reply. It's not an issue which has engaged my attention heretofore.



Thank you for inquiring about the position of The Common People regarding gender identification.

You say I will be aware that each of the following statements is true:

biological females (women and girls) are under attack by biological males who claim to identify as women



the majority of these males do not have gender dysphoria but have autogynephilia — a specifically male sexual fetish based on being validated as a woman



males who identify as women retain male pattern violence, male sexuality, male attitudes to women and male socialisation which ensures they expect prominence in any mixed sex situations



there is a growing number of males who identify as women who retain their male genitalia and insist it is transphobic to refer to women's biological body parts



the majority of males self-identifying as women are fully male in all respects



males self-identifying as women are demanding lesbians educate themselves to be open to having sex with them (rather rapey)



males who self-identify as women, including those in the Labour party, hold deeply misogynistic views of women



Two of your points reference “the majority” and one “a growing number”. The other four points suggest all males within each category you bring up display the behavior indicated.

I am not aware that any of these claims are true though I have no doubt anecdotal evidence exists of instances of such behaviors. I am reluctant to regard instances as instructive, they seem far more likely to be outliers. Making any policy on the basis of extremes is, in my experience, both unwise and unjust.

If you would like to demonstrate support for any of your assertions in any peer-reviewed published academic paper relating to any specified fraction of people who fall into any of your categories, I shall be very interested to look it up, better inform myself and reconsider my position.

As it is, your arguments carry overtones advanced in earlier times in support of criminalizing and retaining penalties for homosexuality, with just as little excuse.

You ask specifically,

Do you agree there is a difference between biological sex and gender?
  1. I am aware that in all populations there will be found a proportion of people whose biological sex is ambiguous regardless of genital expression, and as with many aspects of biology a spectrum exists where some people might prefer to see a binary value.



    I may be mistaken as far as gender goes, not being an expert, and I would happily accept correction. It is a labeling issue, it is a recognition of category and as such can bear ideas like “assignment”. It appears to me that some people treat gender as a collection of categories with fixed boundaries. If we take biological sex and gender to be two distinct areas for a moment, I have no doubt that biological sex can influence gender choice and that gender can influence the identification of biological sex. While for a proportion of people there is rarely if ever any question of who is what, for others there is rarely any certainty and the categories change over time.

    Will you support female (women and girls) rights to single sex spaces?
    1. Your question just abandoned all of your previous vocabulary. “Gender” and “biological sex” swept out of sight while three new emotive terms have been introduced: female, women and girls. I am as protective of single sex spaces as I am of single sex golf courses, single sex masonic inductions or single sex restaurants. As for “girls”, no school with an ounce of rational governance still operates communal changing rooms or showers, single sex or otherwise. It is a scandal that they ever did and led as you will be aware to appalling institutionalized abuse by adults.

      Will you ensure 'sex' as a protected characteristic is retained in the Equality Act 2010?



      Will you strengthen the Equality Act 2010 to ensure clear, robust, guidance is given to all organisations with regard to both the 'sex' and 'gender reassignment' characteristics?
      1. To both of the above questions, I have no doubt that the best course is to update the language of the act to reflect the debate which has developed since their provisions were enacted. When The Common People forms a majority government at Westminster I promise it will establish a committee to consider these questions in detail.

        Will you ensure there is open, honest, debate around the impact on the safeguarding, privacy, dignity and rights of biological females (women and girls) when considering the wants of males who self-identify as women?
        1. Without doubt, yes.




          Yours sincerely
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Bryn Mawr
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by Bryn Mawr »

The letter appears to come from a rather entrenched anti-male perspective.
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spot
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr;1528174 wrote: The letter appears to come from a rather entrenched anti-male perspective.


I am hesitant to think so. I'm sure the letter's author is perfectly content that a male should do what a male ought to do, the issue seems more what constitutes his legitimate sphere of activity. But then, that same process led to an awful lot of police entrapment in London's public conveniences back when I was a lad. So I'm told.
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1528175 wrote: I am hesitant to think so. I'm sure the letter's author is perfectly content that a male should do what a male ought to do, the issue seems more what constitutes his legitimate sphere of activity. But then, that same process led to an awful lot of police entrapment in London's public conveniences back when I was a lad. So I'm told.


I would suggest that most of the questions are sweeping statements that stereotype males in the worst possible way.

Not all males are violent and wish to attack women, nor do all males expect prominence in mixed sex situations. I cannot comment on the attitudes of the transgender community but question 3 makes the authors attitude to men in general clear.
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by spot »

Perhaps I could add a link mentioning David Walliam's magnificent children's book which became a stage musical this year, "The Boy in the Dress". It might balance the thread a little, if anyone's looking for a Christmas present idea.
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Bryn Mawr
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1528178 wrote: Perhaps I could add a link mentioning David Walliam's magnificent children's book which became a stage musical this year, "The Boy in the Dress". It might balance the thread a little, if anyone's looking for a Christmas present idea.


I thought that was what the op was objecting to, cross dressers classing themselves as transgender :-)
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by Betty Boop »

One has to wonder why on earth you would have received such a letter Spot?

What on earth have you been up to !

That aside, it's a horrible letter.

I have a friend who is transgender, couldn't wish to meet a nicer human being. She's not fully gone through the process simply because the steroids and hormonal treatments made her very ill so she's in the process of coming to terms with the fact she can never fully be a woman.

Does it matter? Not a jot, she's a fellow human being who has never asserted herself in any setting.
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spot
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by spot »

I shall, if I may, bump this with a news item from today's BBC website.

An Oxford professor given protection after alleged threats from transgender rights activists says she did not want to "wait and see if I'd get hit in the face" before taking action.

Selina Todd, modern history professor at St Hilda's College, said members of staff accompanied her to lectures after learning of threats on social media.

Prof Todd has now warned against shutting down debates.

The University of Oxford said it did not comment on individual arrangements.

The academic told BBC Radio 4's Today programme she felt "vulnerable" having previously experienced hostility from some academics and students.

Prof Todd said the threats come from some campaigners who believe her views on the need to protect women's spaces, such as single-sex refuges, from people who self-identify as women but are anatomically male are unacceptable.

The academic said that she has witnessed "quite antagonistic" and "quite confrontational" protests outside women's rights meetings she has spoken at in the past.

But she insisted that discussions about women's rights should not be silenced.

"It's always the case that groups' needs and interests can conflict with those of other equally legitimate groups," she said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51248684




The professor seems to think transgender activists, from whom she seeks to protect (I hope all sides excuse my crass language - what can I offer? Unambiguous women? Never any doubt since conception women? Someone point me to language guidance...) traditional women, pose a physical threat to her and seek to prevent her from discussing the matter. That was not a good sentence.

I hope Professor Todd is mistaken. I see no reason at all why she should not express her point of view, just as the writer who triggered this thread did. I do think her position should clearly be part of the public debate though.

For the sake of clarity to those left wondering, I currently self-identify as male, though I was described two hours ago as a garden gnome.

My own opinion is that anyone using language in the way the original writer did is looking to start a fight rather than explore reasonable solutions. It is not a helpful way of uncovering common ground and isolating boundary issues.
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Sex and gender recognition

Post by spot »

This might be relevant comment too.

Throughout the 80s and 90s, gay people were often portrayed as predators by media organisations supportive of section 28. Cashman sees similarities in the way the trans community is treated today. And he is concerned that some lesbian, gay and bisexual people are joining in.

“If I don’t stand up for the rights of others, how can my own rights ever be defended?” he says. “The fact that lesbian and gay people are willing to sacrifice trans people …we’re rolling back the clock.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... eastenders

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