UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

The UK health care system is being drawn into the raging debate in the US.

Here is text from an article that recently appeared in the Wall Street Journal. Having never been to the UK (except a stop at Heathrow), I have no idea what he is talking about, but it doesn't sound good.

For those of you with firsthand knowledge, what do you think?

"Not coincidentally, the U.K. is by far the most unpleasant country in which to be ill in the Western world. Even Greeks living in Britain return home for medical treatment if they are physically able to do so.

The government-run health-care system—which in the U.K. is believed to be the necessary institutional corollary to an inalienable right to health care—has pauperized the entire population. This is not to say that in every last case the treatment is bad: A pauper may be well or badly treated, according to the inclination, temperament and abilities of those providing the treatment. But a pauper must accept what he is given.

Universality is closely allied as an ideal, ideologically, to that of equality. But equality is not desirable in itself. To provide everyone with the same bad quality of care would satisfy the demand for equality. (Not coincidentally, British survival rates for cancer and heart disease are much below those of other European countries, where patients need to make at least some payment for their care.)

In any case, the universality of government health care in pursuance of the abstract right to it in Britain has not ensured equality. After 60 years of universal health care, free at the point of usage and funded by taxation, inequalities between the richest and poorest sections of the population have not been reduced. But Britain does have the dirtiest, most broken-down hospitals in Europe.

There is no right to health care—any more than there is a right to chicken Kiev every second Thursday of the month.

Theodore Dalrymple is the pen name of Anthony Daniels, a British physician. He is a contributing editor to the City Journal. "
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by chonsigirl »

Yes, I would want to know their opinion. I just know from my stepsister, a physical therapist in Wales, that the facilities they have are inadequete. And the wait for an MRI is over 1 year!

But it might be totally different in other areas. A good question to ask. (I am not assuming from the beginning it is the worst, because I think every system can use improvement)
Barman
Posts: 860
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:42 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Barman »

I think that is one of the biggest load of old bollocks i have ever read.

The NHS is second to none.

No need to check your wallet before you phone for an ambulance either.:)
User avatar
Snowfire
Posts: 4835
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:34 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Snowfire »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230730 wrote: The UK health care system is being drawn into the raging debate in the US.




No ! Anything negative people can find is used in the raging debate. And Fox News is very good at finding the maverick dissenter ie Daniel Hannan

There's much wrong with our system but it is a million miles from the picture painted by "Theodore Dalrymple". Me and many of the people I know have had pretty much excellent service from the NHS.

We can always improve the system, not least in the top heavy administration/beaurocracy.

We are not dying in our beds like some Dickensian novel, as some Americans would have the world believe
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

Winston Churchill
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Barman;1230734 wrote: I think that is one of the biggest load of old bollocks i have ever read.

The NHS is second to none.

No need to check your wallet before you phone for an ambulance either.:)
I have lost most of my family to cancer as well as my husband having advanced cancer and surgery. The NHS could not be faulted in any example. yes, there will always be stories of bad treatment but you get that any where in the world. I have also had my share of open surgery and I could not praise them enough. My husbands after care is second to none. The big difference with the British NHS is that beggar, rich man and immigrant will all be treated the same.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Barman
Posts: 860
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:42 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Barman »

oscar;1230742 wrote: I have lost most of my family to cancer as well as my husband having advanced cancer and surgery. The NHS could not be faulted in any example. yes, there will always be stories of bad treatment but you get that any where in the world. I have also had my share of open surgery and I could not praise them enough. My husbands after care is second to none. The big difference with the British NHS is that beggar, rich man and immigrant will all be treated the same.



I have had first hand experience of the NHS as has some of my family.

I am glad you have found them most excellent as i have.:)

Hit the nail on the head with the red bit.
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bruv »

The NHS could be a lot better than it is, I shall relate two recent events that brought me into contact with the NHS, and the observer can make their own mind up compared to their own healthcare system.



A work mate had an accident carrying glass, the breaking glass slashed the back of his wrist and caused a deep gash to the top of his head.

After arriving at Accident and Emergency his details were taken by reception, he was seen almost immediately, his wounds treated and an X-ray of his head taken.

The waiting time between the different treatments was long and painfully slow.

My 42 year old daughter suffered with headaches and complained to her doctor who arranged for tests at several hospitals, seeing several specialists, before diagnosed to have a benign brain tumour. She was off work for approximately 6 months receiving several treatments and tests, until she had an operation to remove the tumour. She stayed in hospital for 6 days, and is now hopefully on the road to a full recovery.

Both had no worries concerning need to pay before or after treatment, their taxes had covered their right to the best treatment available.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
Kathy Ellen
Posts: 10569
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Kathy Ellen »

Please don't think that all Americans believe this about the health care in the UK.



I personally had wonderful care when I was in hospital in London and Ireland years ago. I couldn't have gotten better treatment and care. The doctors, nurses and aides were terrific, warm and had great bedside manners....something that some of our doctors do not have here.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

Kathy Ellen;1230781 wrote: Please don't think that all Americans believe this about the health care in the UK.



I personally had wonderful care when I was in hospital in London and Ireland years ago. I couldn't have gotten better treatment and care. The doctors, nurses and aides were terrific, warm and had great bedside manners....something that some of our doctors do not have here.

Thanks Kathy....... I have 2 sisters who are staff nurses in Brighton and Kent and yes, they are under-funded at times but they do a fantastic job and a very difficult job.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
Kathy Ellen
Posts: 10569
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Kathy Ellen »

oscar;1230787 wrote: Thanks Kathy....... I have 2 sisters who are staff nurses in Brighton and Kent and yes, they are under-funded at times but they do a fantastic job and a very difficult job.



I agree Julie...I forgot to add that I was in hospital for 9 days, and it cost very little as compared to prices here. I do get travel medical now since this incident though.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230730 wrote: The UK health care system is being drawn into the raging debate in the US.

Here is text from an article that recently appeared in the Wall Street Journal. Having never been to the UK (except a stop at Heathrow), I have no idea what he is talking about, but it doesn't sound good.

For those of you with firsthand knowledge, what do you think?

"Not coincidentally, the U.K. is by far the most unpleasant country in which to be ill in the Western world. Even Greeks living in Britain return home for medical treatment if they are physically able to do so.

The government-run health-care system—which in the U.K. is believed to be the necessary institutional corollary to an inalienable right to health care—has pauperized the entire population. This is not to say that in every last case the treatment is bad: A pauper may be well or badly treated, according to the inclination, temperament and abilities of those providing the treatment. But a pauper must accept what he is given.

Universality is closely allied as an ideal, ideologically, to that of equality. But equality is not desirable in itself. To provide everyone with the same bad quality of care would satisfy the demand for equality. (Not coincidentally, British survival rates for cancer and heart disease are much below those of other European countries, where patients need to make at least some payment for their care.)

In any case, the universality of government health care in pursuance of the abstract right to it in Britain has not ensured equality. After 60 years of universal health care, free at the point of usage and funded by taxation, inequalities between the richest and poorest sections of the population have not been reduced. But Britain does have the dirtiest, most broken-down hospitals in Europe.

There is no right to health care—any more than there is a right to chicken Kiev every second Thursday of the month.

Theodore Dalrymple is the pen name of Anthony Daniels, a British physician. He is a contributing editor to the City Journal. "



For those of you with firsthand knowledge, what do you think?




Bollocks, poppycock, piffle, coswallop, havers, nonsense, gobbledegook

It's a load of bollocks. No one would claim our system is by any means perfect but many are getting annoyed at the ridiculous claims being made about the NHS in the american media. Why on earth bring us in to it?

The claim that has really sparked it is one made in Investor’s Business Daily that stephen hawkins-who was receiving an award from president obama this week-

that

'
People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.'



At best it is breathtaking ignorance-they were unaware that he is british and has lived and worked in the UK all his life and has been treated by the NHS all his life and still is being treated by the NHS- at worst it is a deliberate lie. Even the man himself has been drawn in to it.

I owe my life to the NHS': Stephen Hawking tells US to stop attacking health service




Read more: NHS branded 'evil' and 'Orwellian' by high-level US politicians | Mail Online

Quite frankly you have little to be smug about



BBC NEWS | Health | Healthcare around the world

What we find shocking about america is that someone can be refused treatment if they don't have insurance or that people have to bankrupt themselves in order to pay for the care of relatives.

It's easy to pick areas or instances where things have gone wrong-there are a lot of issues and arguments about how and what should be provided and the quality of care can vary considerably- and yes it does cost a lot-but not nearly as much per head as yours does it seems. But in the UK people who wish to move away from the basic principle behind the NHS are very much on the lunatic fringe of british politics.
User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

I hear a lot about "free" health care and while it may be free at the point of service, we all know there is a cost. What does this program really cost the UK citizens and does anyone care what it costs?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

Joseph;1230798 wrote: You can have choice that is what is important.....

The NHS is fundamental in any society..



What kind of choice are you referring to?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
User avatar
Snowfire
Posts: 4835
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:34 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Snowfire »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230807 wrote: I hear a lot about "free" health care and while it may be free at the point of service, we all know there is a cost. What does this program really cost the UK citizens and does anyone care what it costs?



Well, there's your answer. "free at the point of service". It's payed for by our taxes.

If you are unlucky enough to get seriously ill during your life, you will need hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of consultancy and treatment. None of which is chargeable to the patient because it is "free at the point of source" and EVERYBODY is entitled, rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief.

Try taking the NHS away from us and you'd have one mother of all battles
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

Winston Churchill
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by OpenMind »

Barack Obama's stepmother: I owe my life to the NHS - Telegraph

Obama's stepmother thinks it's a great service.

On the other hand, when I had a heart attack in 2004, I was taken into hospital and told they had to test for enzymes released by the heart after a heart attack. the test had to be done 12 hours later. 12 hours later and no one came to take the test. Apparently, there were no doctors.

In the end I discharged myself after being lectured about quality of life. So where are the doctors, I said, and if I don't earn any money, I won't have quality of life anyway.
User avatar
AussiePam
Posts: 9898
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:57 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by AussiePam »

My older daughter became very ill in the UK after the birth of her son - (she has dual English / Australian citizenship). The NHS gave her and her baby the absolute best care, immediate and complete. When she was discharged, that was it.

I've also been present during a life threatening emergency in America where paramedics had to call three hospitals before they could find somewhere to take the barely breathing patient, who was an American citizen, had double pneumonia and hadn't been able to afford health insurance. Last heard, the debt collectors were still phoning during the night.

America needs to find its own solution here, suitable to the needs, expectations and perceptions of its own citizens. Misinformation and propoganda about other systems are unhelpful.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"

User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

AussiePam;1230824 wrote: My older daughter became very ill in the UK after the birth of her son - (she has dual English / Australian citizenship). The NHS gave her and her baby the absolute best care, immediate and complete. When she was discharged, that was it.

I've also been present during a life threatening emergency in America where paramedics had to call three hospitals before they could find somewhere to take the barely breathing patient, who was an American citizen, had double pneumonia and hadn't been able to afford health insurance. Last heard, the debt collectors were still phoning during the night.

America needs to find its own solution here, suitable to the needs, expectations and perceptions of its own citizens. Misinformation and propoganda about other systems are unhelpful.
Thankyou Pam.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230730 wrote: The UK health care system is being drawn into the raging debate in the US.

"
Isn't this just a large dose of penis envy on your part?

Get your own health care system perfectionised and then critisize ours.

Good god, I've just read about a poor girl who was being bullied because she had no eyelashes. Our NHS just gave her a PIONEERING eyelash transplant. How much would her parents have had to sell their home for in order for her to have that in the US.?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15745
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230807 wrote: I hear a lot about "free" health care and while it may be free at the point of service, we all know there is a cost. What does this program really cost the UK citizens and does anyone care what it costs?



It costs about 8% of our GDP - how much does the US system cost? As I understand it, about 18% of your GDP.

The quote in the original post was one of the most biased and deliberately misleading pieces of politically inspired spin it has been my misfortune to read and bears little, if any, connection with reality.
User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

oscar;1230828 wrote: Isn't this just a large dose of penis envy on your part?

Get your own health care system perfectionised and then critisize ours.

Good god, I've just read about a poor girl who was being bullied because she had no eyelashes. Our NHS just gave her a PIONEERING eyelash transplant. How much would her parents have had to sell their home for in order for her to have that in the US.?



She wouldn't get it. That is cosmetic procedure.

I really can't relate to the being covered by health insurance of any kind. I take it you don't mind paying taxes to support this type of coverage.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15745
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230808 wrote: What kind of choice are you referring to?



For elective treatment we have the choice of "going private" and paying for it - often in the same hospital under the same doctors as you would get on the NHS but possibly sooner.
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bruv »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230807 wrote: I hear a lot about "free" health care and while it may be free at the point of service, we all know there is a cost. What does this program really cost the UK citizens and does anyone care what it costs?



As mentioned elsewhere nothing is free, but the service is available to all regardless of their financial situation when they need it.

We also have choice, along side the NHS if you so wish you can opt for healthcare insurance and get priority treatment in NHS or independent hospitals by NHS or private Doctors......this is the controversial face of the NHS, taking away from the ideal that it was meant to provide.

Some argue the fees earned by private healthcare using NHS facilities helps to fund the NHS.

If you asked me where I would prefer to become ill and need emergency treatment, by far it would be in the UK...........with all its faults.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by OpenMind »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230832 wrote: She wouldn't get it. That is cosmetic procedure.

I really can't relate to the being covered by health insurance of any kind. I take it you don't mind paying taxes to support this type of coverage.



If you're strapped for cash, out of work, without access to a few thousand quid, you won't be denied treatment for that reason. The real problem is that there can be too many people needing the same type of treatment and they may not all get it - transplants, for instance.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230832 wrote: She wouldn't get it. That is cosmetic procedure.

I really can't relate to the being covered by health insurance of any kind. I take it you don't mind paying taxes to support this type of coverage.
If you work, you pay a National Insurence stamp weekly or monthly out of your wages. The amount id linked to your salery. For what is available of the NHS, the cost is a pittence say for example you are diagnosed with cancer. The benifit is that should you ever lose your job and be unable to pay your NHS stamp, you will still recieve the same surgery and care as if you were working.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bruv »

Cost per capita.......

Some people will be able to read and understand......but I am a numerically dyslexic.

But the NHS looks like good value for money to me
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bill Sikes »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1230730 wrote: Anthony Daniels, a British physician



Oh dear. You could look him up on the 'net. I personally think he's a couple of bricks short of a load - and him a "mad doctor", too.



Just to think about his published words:

> Not coincidentally, the U.K. is by far the most unpleasant country in which to be

> ill in the Western world. Even Greeks living in Britain return home for medical

> treatment if they are physically able to do so.

So, that explains why Europeans are falling over themselves to be treated on the NHS. Next!



> The government-run health-care system—which in the U.K. is believed to be the

> necessary institutional corollary to an inalienable right to health care—has pauperized

> the entire population.

Well, I don't feel very "pauperised"; I pay tax to support the NHS, which I hope I never need to use, but I know that if I *do* need it, it's ther, ready and waiting, and very able.

> This is not to say that in every last case the treatment is bad: A pauper may be well or

> badly treated, according to the inclination, temperament and abilities of those providing

> the treatment. But a pauper must accept what he is given.

Hang on, what's all this "pauper" stuff? The very vast majority of people who use the NHS have paid for it by virtue of taxation, so by definition cannot be "paupers".

Also, this is very, very insulting to doctors, of whom this - "person" - counted himself as one. "A pauper must accept what he's given", indeed - the "pauper" get the same treatment as anyone else using the NHS (although a tramp might get a de-lousing treatment as well).



> Universality is closely allied as an ideal, ideologically, to that of equality. But equality

> is not desirable in itself. To provide everyone with the same bad quality of care would

> satisfy the demand for equality. (Not coincidentally, British survival rates for cancer

> and heart disease are much below those of other European countries, where patients

> need to make at least some payment for their care.)

Patients here in the UK pay. Patients abroad pay. There're simply different ways of paying. However, it the UK, you won't be asked for your Insurance Certificate before being treated.



> In any case, the universality of government health care in pursuance of the abstract

> right to it in Britain has not ensured equality. After 60 years of universal health care,

> free at the point of usage and funded by taxation, inequalities between the richest

> and poorest sections of the population have not been reduced. But Britain does have

> the dirtiest, most broken-down hospitals in Europe.

What are these "inequalities"? I don't know about the quality of hospitals, but to take the "Greek" example above, I'd rather be treated in the UK, thanks.



> There is no right to health care—any more than there is a right to chicken Kiev every

> second Thursday of the month.

There is the right to health care here - & I'm all for it.

It is worth adding that *private* health care providers and the NHS are linked.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

I just get the feeling of 'Lets attack the Uk because Obama can't get his own health care plan right.'

The opening post is nothing but lie's.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by gmc »

oscar;1230923 wrote: I just get the feeling of 'Lets attack the Uk because Obama can't get his own health care plan right.'

The opening post is nothing but lie's.



It's more a case of let's distract attention away from our system by changing the subject. It's a classic tactic in political debate when you are losing the rational argument to either attack the character of the proponent of the measure you disagree with or play on the fears of likely supporters. Pointing at someone else is the easiest way to do it as well as print stories and rumours that play to pre held or carefully cultivated misconceptions.

The basic heart of the debate is the question do you think it morally right that people should be able to access medical care if they need it or should only those who can pay for it be able to do so. If the answer is yes people should have access then the question becomes how do you pay for and run it. If the answer is no only those who can pay for it should then basically you are saying those who are poor are a waste of space. Since the latter is now generally an unacceptable way of looking at things you have to find another morally justifiable reason for being opposed to the concept so you need a completely spurious but compelling counter argument or bogey man.

The reality is what we or any other country have done is completely irrelevant to the debate about healthcare in the states-except in so far pinching some of our solutions might work-but we have devised ways that suit our culture and temperament. You should do the same.

Quite frankly we look at what is going on in the states and wonder why anyone would NOT want universal healthcare for all it's flaws. Horror stories about the UK's healthcare are just a scare tactic designed to prevent people thinking.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E07ZHWxT834&feature=related
User avatar
Peter Lake
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Peter Lake »

I see this attack on the UK system a diversion tactic by the insurence companies in the US who would lose out if the US adopted our scheme. Naturally they would want to paint us in a bad light due to the amount of money that would be lost by having a free for all system.
User avatar
AussiePam
Posts: 9898
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:57 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by AussiePam »

gmc;1231014 wrote: It's more a case of let's distract attention away from our system by changing the subject. It's a classic tactic in political debate when you are losing the rational argument to either attack the character of the proponent of the measure you disagree with or play on the fears of likely supporters. Pointing at someone else is the easiest way to do it as well as print stories and rumours that play to pre held or carefully cultivated misconceptions.



Excellently put. And text book.

The basic heart of the debate is the question do you think it morally right that people should be able to access medical care if they need it or should only those who can pay for it be able to do so. If the answer is yes people should have access then the question becomes how do you pay for and run it. If the answer is no only those who can pay for it should then basically you are saying those who are poor are a waste of space.



Yes. But not 'waste of space'

I've read the posts of the anti-everything-Obama in this forum, and what I'm seeing is the idea that I think Jester expressed very well. You do right by God, tithe etc, work hard - and you'll be fine. This is America. The good hardworking godfearing prosper. Therefore if for any reason you don't proper - you are somehow unworthy, and therefore it is your own fault if calamity strikes you and your family. If you are poor, unemployed, health benefit less, and your family, friends, church, local community is for whatever reason unable to aid you to turn yourself around - then too bad.

I guess these days it's the sheer number of unworthy, undeserving Americans that have precipitated this political crisis.



Since the latter is now generally an unacceptable way of looking at things




Unacceptable in some places, but isnt' this a cultural thing too?

you have to find another morally justifiable reason for being opposed to the concept so you need a completely spurious but compelling counter argument or bogey man.

The reality is what we or any other country have done is completely irrelevant to the debate about healthcare in the states-except in so far pinching some of our solutions might work-but we have devised ways that suit our culture and temperament. You should do the same.




Yes.

Quite frankly we look at what is going on in the states and wonder why anyone would NOT want universal healthcare for all it's flaws. Horror stories about the UK's healthcare are just a scare tactic designed to prevent people thinking.



The Australian system is different from the British system, but gosh, I'm very glad it's there. Medicare covers everyone. I also have private insurance which means that I can get faster help for non life threatening conditions, with the doctor of my choice, in a private hospital if I wish. So my thrift, self help and self reliance is rewarded, but my deserving or underserving suffering brother/sister will also have the chance to get a kid's broken arm fixed without going bankrupt.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"

User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bill Sikes »

AussiePam;1231294 wrote: This is America. The good hardworking godfearing prosper. Therefore if for any reason you don't proper - you are somehow unworthy, and therefore it is your own fault if calamity strikes you and your family. If you are poor, unemployed, health benefit less, and your family, friends, church, local community is for whatever reason unable to aid you to turn yourself around - then too bad.



"Neither shall they eat".... or have health care. Nicely biblical/Stalinesque comment in the "Land ogf the freee"?? Home of Capitalism, hmm? The same sort of rhyme, it seems...



AussiePam;1231294 wrote: The Australian system is different from the British system, but gosh, I'm very glad it's there. Medicare covers everyone. I also have private insurance which means that I can get faster help for non life threatening conditions, with the doctor of my choice, in a private hospital if I wish. So my thrift, self help and self reliance is rewarded, but my deserving or underserving suffering brother/sister will also have the chance to get a kid's broken arm fixed without going bankrupt.



This seems to be the same situation WRT health care as exists in the Yook.
User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

I am one of those Americans who do not want a government run system or option for that matter. I do think we need major reform and certainly we need a way to assure that every American has coverage and access to medical care, but from my point of view a government run system is a very inefficient way of doing that.

Our Medicare system for people age 65 and older is a good example. Yes, it does provide coverage, but at the same time it is going bankrupt, it is fraught with fraud and it does nothing to manage claim costs. At the same time there are still out of pocket costs for participants and they continue to go up because of the cost. The fundamental problem with our system is the cost of care, we use too much technology, too many services and many of our doctors are very highly paid, like radiologists, anesthetists and certain surgeons who earn $750,000 to $1,000,000 a year.

My wife recently had an ear infection, she went to a specialist, the initial office visit was $250, the second with some test on her hear was $2,000. She ultimately had a drain placed in here ear at an outpatient surgical center, this was a ten minute procedure and the cost for the center was $13,1000 and the center is owned by 50 doctors, including the one who referred us to that facility. In total the ear infection cost over $18,000 of which I paid aqbout $800.00

This is what is wrong with the US system and in turn leads to many people being unable to afford the coverage. the debate you see today is because many people think reform is covering all American into a very flawed system and others she really fixing the system first as primary.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1231599 wrote: I am one of those Americans who do not want a government run system or option for that matter. I do think we need major reform and certainly we need a way to assure that every American has coverage and access to medical care, but from my point of view a government run system is a very inefficient way of doing that.

Our Medicare system for people age 65 and older is a good example. Yes, it does provide coverage, but at the same time it is going bankrupt, it is fraught with fraud and it does nothing to manage claim costs. At the same time there are still out of pocket costs for participants and they continue to go up because of the cost. The fundamental problem with our system is the cost of care, we use too much technology, too many services and many of our doctors are very highly paid, like radiologists, anesthetists and certain surgeons who earn $750,000 to $1,000,000 a year.

My wife recently had an ear infection, she went to a specialist, the initial office visit was $250, the second with some test on her hear was $2,000. She ultimately had a drain placed in here ear at an outpatient surgical center, this was a ten minute procedure and the cost for the center was $13,1000 and the center is owned by 50 doctors, including the one who referred us to that facility. In total the ear infection cost over $18,000 of which I paid aqbout $800.00

This is what is wrong with the US system and in turn leads to many people being unable to afford the coverage. the debate you see today is because many people think reform is covering all American into a very flawed system and others she really fixing the system first as primary.



It's a peculiarly american system you have and you need to work out a way of fixing that suits. Looking at countries like the UK where the attitude of the population is fundamentally different from the US gets away from accepting yo have a problem and dealing with it. Americans don't seem able to understand we want the NHS it's not something that was imposed on us by a demented socialist government it was rather you are going to do this you bastards.

but from my point of view a government run system is a very inefficient way of doing that.



From our point of view that anyone be denied medical care or have to avoid going to the doctor because they are worried about the cost is fundamentally wrong.

My wife recently had an ear infection, she went to a specialist, the initial office visit was $250, the second with some test on her hear was $2,000. She ultimately had a drain placed in here ear at an outpatient surgical center, this was a ten minute procedure and the cost for the center was $13,1000 and the center is owned by 50 doctors, including the one who referred us to that facility. In total the ear infection cost over $18,000 of which I paid aqbout $800.00



In the UK that would have cost her nothing- OK it's not free you pay through your taxes but it's free at the point of use. To those of your countrymen who like to say our NHS is not really free because we pay through our taxes please tell them we are not stupid we know that. But at the point of need there is no charge.

I've paid in to the NHS all my working life and have hardly used it-I recently applied for life assurance I had to phone up the medical centre to find out who my doctor was cos I've never met him. (The typical male in this country has probably never been near a doctor for years on the other hand women are in quite often. )

I know a woman the same age as me with spina bifida-she's had a series of operations and constant medication has never been able to work and consequently has never paid in to a service she has used all her life and will probably use even more as she gets older. Do I think it unfair I have t pay for a service I have hardly used? No I don't because to me it is worth having the peace of mind to know I can get treatment should I ever need it.

but from my point of view a government run system is a very inefficient way of doing that.



The government don't run the system-they fund it and try and make it efficient and we do have problems cos it's not perfect (there are issues with too many managers etc etc) but only a complete idiot would expect it to be. The doctors decide the treatment not a civil servant- a situation I much prefer to an insurance clerk deciding my required treatment isn't covered. It's very easy to find fault with it and people who have been let down. If wanted to no doubt I can find numerous cases where things have gone wrong in the states. I can probably also no doubt find cases where people have been left to die because they can't pay or who have out off seeing a doctor till it was too late because they were worried about the cost. That you won't find in the UK.

I am one of those british people who would be extremely hostile to any attempt to privatise the NHS, the profit motive should not be a factor in providing medical care. You may have gathered from the british posters that most of us feel very much the same way. It may not be perfect but it's better than yours. Generally speaking we look at the US and wonder why on earth you put up with the way things are. It's your problem and your argument just leave us out of it.
User avatar
Oscar Namechange
Posts: 31842
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Oscar Namechange »

gmc;1231779 wrote:



I am one of those british people who would be extremely hostile to any attempt to privatise the NHS, the profit motive should not be a factor in providing medical care. You may have gathered from the british posters that most of us feel very much the same way. It may not be perfect but it's better than yours. Generally speaking we look at the US and wonder why on earth you put up with the way things are. It's your problem and your argument just leave us out of it.



:yh_clap:yh_clap:yh_clap:yh_clap
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

Just curious,do you folks in the UK know the term Quality Adjusted Life Year and how it is used in your health care system?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15745
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1232171 wrote: Just curious,do you folks in the UK know the term Quality Adjusted Life Year and how it is used in your health care system?



It's not a term in the public domain - whether it is used within the health care system I would not know. Raven would be the best person to do a comparison being an American working within the NHS.

Looking at the definition it sounds like an accountants approach to medicine and one that would be very difficult to quantify well enough to put into practice.
User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

Bryn Mawr;1232173 wrote: It's not a term in the public domain - whether it is used within the health care system I would not know. Raven would be the best person to do a comparison being an American working within the NHS.

Looking at the definition it sounds like an accountants approach to medicine and one that would be very difficult to quantify well enough to put into practice.



A QALY is the method the NHS uses to determine if it will provide coverage for expensive health care. I don't know the formula but a treatment must add at least one year quality adjusted life per $30,000 (pounds). If the treatment costs more the health service does not pay for it.

While there may be good logic in this methodolgy, it's the kind if thing that is getting Americans really riled up and nervous.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15745
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1232182 wrote: A QALY is the method the NHS uses to determine if it will provide coverage for expensive health care. I don't know the formula but a treatment must add at least one year quality adjusted life per $30,000 (pounds). If the treatment costs more the health service does not pay for it.

While there may be good logic in this methodolgy, it's the kind if thing that is getting Americans really riled up and nervous.



Can you point me to some NHS documentation for this or is it purely from the US media?
User avatar
dubs
Posts: 3068
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 2:50 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by dubs »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1232182 wrote: A QALY is the method the NHS uses to determine if it will provide coverage for expensive health care. I don't know the formula but a treatment must add at least one year quality adjusted life per $30,000 (pounds). If the treatment costs more the health service does not pay for it.

While there may be good logic in this methodolgy, it's the kind if thing that is getting Americans really riled up and nervous.



I found this article in the Health Service Journal..

Quality-adjusted life years are too rigid a yardstick for the NHS | News | Health Service Journal




My dog's a cross between a Shihtzu and a Bulldog... It's a Bullsh!t..
User avatar
QUINNSCOMMENTARY
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 4:56 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

Bryn Mawr;1232184 wrote: Can you point me to some NHS documentation for this or is it purely from the US media?



I first learned of it in an article by a professor at Harvard, but I also found this.

© 1988 Oxford University Press

research-article

QALYS AND LONG-TERM CARE FOR ELDERLY PEOPLE IN THE UK: SCALES FOR ASSESSMENT OF QUALITY OF LIFE

CAM DONALDSON, Lecturer In Health Economics, ANN ATKINSON, Research Associate, JOHN BOND, Lecturer In Sociology and KEN WRIGHT, Senior Fellow

Health Care Research Unit, University of Newcastle upon Tyne 21 Claremont Place, Newcastle upon Tyne NE2 4AA

Centre for Health Economics, University of York

QALYs have developed in the UK as a tool for comparing the outcome of health care procedures in a single index over time. This tool can then be used, along with information on costs of procedures, in decision-making about health service resource allocation. It is shown that the attributes of disability and distress, on which QALYs are presently based in the UK, are insensitive to changes in the health status of elderly people in long-term care when compared to other measures of quality of life which are frequently used in studies of older people. Thus, if the use of QALYs increases, they should be based on attributes appropriate to the groups studied, otherwise certain groups may be discriminated against in health service resource allocation owing to the use of an insensitive measure of outcome.

accepted in revised form January 9, 1988.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



Quinnscommentary



Observations on Life. Give it a try now and tell a friend or two or fifty. ;)



Quinnscommentary Blog
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bruv »

An unpleasant reality of a system with finite resources ?

Any medical facility must have limitations, imposed by cost ,availability of expertise , medical judgment etc.

I am sure there are more limitations I cannot think of.

What would be the alternative ?

Spending unlimited amounts of money for minimal purpose.

In this instance it is a financial judgment, another time it might be an unpleasant medical judgment.

It could mean either spending extortionate amounts to prolong the life of a 90 year old with low quality of life for 3 months, or deliver 100 babies safely into the world.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15745
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bryn Mawr »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1232219 wrote: I first learned of it in an article by a professor at Harvard, but I also found this.

© 1988 Oxford University Press

research-article

QALYS AND LONG-TERM CARE FOR ELDERLY PEOPLE IN THE UK: SCALES FOR ASSESSMENT OF QUALITY OF LIFE

CAM DONALDSON, Lecturer In Health Economics, ANN ATKINSON, Research Associate, JOHN BOND, Lecturer In Sociology and KEN WRIGHT, Senior Fellow

Health Care Research Unit, University of Newcastle upon Tyne 21 Claremont Place, Newcastle upon Tyne NE2 4AA

Centre for Health Economics, University of York

QALYs have developed in the UK as a tool for comparing the outcome of health care procedures in a single index over time. This tool can then be used, along with information on costs of procedures, in decision-making about health service resource allocation. It is shown that the attributes of disability and distress, on which QALYs are presently based in the UK, are insensitive to changes in the health status of elderly people in long-term care when compared to other measures of quality of life which are frequently used in studies of older people. Thus, if the use of QALYs increases, they should be based on attributes appropriate to the groups studied, otherwise certain groups may be discriminated against in health service resource allocation owing to the use of an insensitive measure of outcome.

accepted in revised form January 9, 1988.



Unfortunately access to this article is not cheap. I'm trying to see whether it relates to care of the elderly in private homes rather than procedures used by the NHS - certainly the abstract implies that they use is limited which would not be the case if it was standard NHS practice.

I will research further.
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by OpenMind »

I've never heard of QALY. Are you saying that the Americans are scared they may be refused treatment because the treatment is not considered viable against the extra life time they would get for it? What happens if your contributions run out?

The alternative is private health care which the Americans can also have.
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bill Sikes »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1232219 wrote: Thus, if the use of QALYs increases, they should be based on attributes appropriate to the groups studied, otherwise certain groups may be discriminated against in health service resource allocation owing to the use of an insensitive measure of outcome.

accepted in revised form January 9, 1988.



That's from 20+ years ago, and seems to indicate that the use of these assessments is (would have been?) tempered by other measures to avoid discrimination.

If it's of any help to you, I can tell you that a close relative (77 yrs.) was suddenly afflicted with an aortic dissection. This is a medical emergency. He was lucky enough to make it to hospital, and was repaired. So, expensive medical treatments with high chances of failure are indeed conducted in the NHS for older people.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;1232182 wrote: A QALY is the method the NHS uses to determine if it will provide coverage for expensive health care. I don't know the formula but a treatment must add at least one year quality adjusted life per $30,000 (pounds). If the treatment costs more the health service does not pay for it.

While there may be good logic in this methodolgy, it's the kind if thing that is getting Americans really riled up and nervous.



A QALY is the method the NHS uses to determine if it will provide coverage for expensive health care. I don't know the formula but a treatment must add at least one year quality adjusted life per $30,000 (pounds). If the treatment costs more the health service does not pay for it.

While there may be good logic in this methodolgy, it's the kind if thing that is getting Americans really riled up and nervous.



What possible relevance does that have to the debate about universal healthcare in the states? Are you going to copy what we do lock stock and barrel or come up with your own solutions?

It's a complete red herring. Why bother asking what we think if you ignore the responses? We do have problems with our NHS and have some major issues around the funding of it but the one thing we all want is treatment when we need it. Have you any idea of the outrage it causes here if people are refused care because it is too expensive or the particular trust doesn't offer that kind of care?

The NHS was not something imposed on the people by the government it was very much a bottom up demand for change to make things better for ordinary people, it's the same in much of europe we had the debate you are now having decades ago and the outcome was universal healthcare because that is what the people wanted. Yes the way we do it has it's flaws but the consensus that we have universal healthcare is overwhelming.

You don't have that kind of consensus in the states and you're not likely to so long as you allow red herrings like QALY to distract you from the central point. Do you want universal healthcare or not.

As it happens there are posters here quite capable of going in the deep end when it comes to discussions about the NHS, to complicate things I'm Scots and the NHS here is different from the NHS in England-we don't have foundation hospitals here for instance although it took the vote of scottish MP's to get them implemented in England-which brings the Lothian question to the fore again.

But I'll ask the same question. What possible relevance does it have to the debate about universal healthcare in the states?

Our NHS has problems but it's far far better than yours-you may not have noticed but there is no call for the privatisation of the NHS in the UK. Those that do advocate it are the lunatic right wing of the tory party.

Criticism of the NHS with a spurious argument that we may or may not make decisions about treatment based on cost benefit analysis is a bit rich coming from a country where people are turned away because they have no insurance or decline to fund a treatment because it is "experimental".
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by Bez »

When I saw this 'madman' making his outrageous claims on the TV I was horrified. I only hope that he refused treatment if he needs it at our NHS hospitals.....this won't happen of course........we play 'fair' here.



These are my experiences over the last 62 years :



My 3 children were all born in hospital....40 odd years ago. Ante natal and postnatal care was second to none. All had their 'jabs'. All have been treated in A&E for one reason or another for broken bones, split heads (ouch) etc.



My Grandad had cataracts removed and prostrate operations in his 70s



My Mum had 2 hip replacement operations and life saving heart treatment in her 70s



My 9 healthy grandchildren were born in hospital over the last 18 years....



I have had a thyroid operation, a broken arm 'repaired' and more recently treatment for a heart condition. being over 60 my prescriptions are free as are those for children.



My ex-husband was treated for 2 broken arms after a motor bike accident.



My brother has successfully been treated for prostrate cancer in his 70s.



My sister in law has made a full recovery after a heart attack last year......



I could go on and on....but I won't.....except to say that my sister in California will have to work until she is 75+ in order to pay the excess charges for her treatment of breast cancer etc.



Everyone who works pays National Health Contributions.....the NHS is not perfect ...what big complex organisation is, but I will stand up for it to the bitter end.



This mans claims are OUTRAGEOUS and he's telling the biggest lies I've ever heard......well almost.



From cradle to grave the NHS looks after us pretty well....I have no complaints.
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

UK has the worst hospitals in Europe?

Post by OpenMind »

Very well said, Bez. Hear, hear.

Return to “Health Care”