UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

User avatar
Pearl Harbor
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Pearl Harbor »

Executive propose to crackdown on knife-crime:

A crackdown on Scotland's appalling knife-crime record began its

parliamentary passage today. The Executive published the Police Bill

which includes proposals to increase sentences for carrying offensive

weapons. It also gives the police more powers to stop and search.

Scotland's knife crime record is shocking - the country has the third

highest rate of murders from stabbings in Europe. The police bill will

double the maximum sentence for carrying a knife to four years, police

will have more powers to stop and search suspects and the legal age to

buy a non-domestic knife will be raised from 16 to 18.

The bill also tackles other areas of crime. Trouble makers at football

matches will be banned from football grounds, parades and marches will

be restricted to clampdown on sectarianism and supergrasses will be

encouraged to give evidence with the offer of shorter sentences,

although this final point is causing concern in human rights circles.

Overall opposition parties broadly welcome the bill and as a result it

is likely to become law next summer.
User avatar
chrisb84uk
Posts: 11634
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:29 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by chrisb84uk »

Sooner the better I say!!
User avatar
abbey
Posts: 15069
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by abbey »

England has most of these in place already, and it's made not one iota of difference!:-2
User avatar
abbey
Posts: 15069
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by abbey »

I've just noticed the title of this thread, Re: UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

What's the significance with the story that you posted :confused:
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by BabyRider »

abbey wrote: I've just noticed the title of this thread, Re: UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

What's the significance with the story that you posted :confused:
If I can wager a guess, I'd say that the title is "tongue-in-cheek." Since the gun ban obviously hasn't done a thing to prevent or lessen crime. Criminals are just finding different weapons.



I really had a good giggle at the "domestic knife" phrase. Because, of course, a domestic knife is completely unable to cause the same harm as a "non"-domestic knife. :yh_eyerol Whatever the hell that means. This is absurd. And giving the police MORE rights to search? Whooooeeee. Can't wait to see how the law-abiding citizens respond to that.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

posted by babyrider

I really had a good giggle at the "domestic knife" phrase. Because, of course, a domestic knife is completely unable to cause the same harm as a "non"-domestic knife. Whatever the hell that means. This is absurd. And giving the police MORE rights to search? Whooooeeee. Can't wait to see how the law-abiding citizens respond to that.


The law abiding citizens are demanding that the police take action to deal with the problem and want to see the courts handing out stiff sentences to anyone found carrying a knife. A common complaint is that seentences are too lenient. Compared to the razor gangs of the 50's and 60's this the current spate of knife crime is mild that's why we expect the police to clamp down and clamp down hard before it gets any worse. Seeing the police lifting a bunch of knife weilding thugs will go down very well indeed.

Believe me we want to see the police lifting anyone carrying a knife and anyone crying breach of civil liberties will be laughed out of court as there is no justification for carrying an offensive weapon unless it is your intention to use it on someone. Anyone found carrying a knife about gets lifted, it's been that way in Scotland as long as I can remember.

Make no mistake the law abiding citizens are the one demanding this. They are also the ones that are demanding that the sale of air rifles to minors is stopped because they are not prepared to tolerate thugs taking pot shots at police and fireman and ambulancemen going about their duties. Along with the sale of "collectors" knives. Anyone buying a combat type knife is a nutter that should not have one- It's pretty simple really I live in Glasgow and i want a combat knife-you are a nutter and you will not get one, if we catch you with a knife you will go to jail.

The law abiding citizens are also the ones that demanded that hand guns be banned altogether even for use in a gun club. Post Dunblane those campaigning to keep to keep their guns got very little sympathy at all.

We have a problem with crime as does everybody else, but only a complete lunatic would believe that the answer if for everybody to be armed. Keep the american way you're welcome to it we are a long way from being the violence obsessed culture that america seems to be.

posted by abbey

England has most of these in place already, and it's made not one iota of difference


Banning alcohol at football matches make a heck of a difference to the level of violence, now they are trying out ways to curb sectarian violence at old firm matches.
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by BabyRider »

Good God, here we go again... :-5



gmc wrote:

Believe me we want to see the police lifting anyone carrying a knife and anyone crying breach of civil liberties will be laughed out of court as there is no justification for carrying an offensive weapon unless it is your intention to use it on someone.


Of course. Absolutely. When I carry my gun, it means I am going out to shoot someone in the head. Isn't that what it's for, after all?? :yh_eyerol

When you get your 2.5 inch pocket knives and nail clippers and emery boards taken away then we'll see how much you appreciate the cops following through with your "demands." When you can't go to the store and buy a set of kitchen knives for your home without having to go through 19 forms of release and safety classes and a background check, we'll see how happy you are with the laws you "demanded" be implemented.



The buck knife I use for dressing out deer is just as lethal as any kitchen knife, OR any so-called "combat" knife. When everything with a sharp edge, or anything that LOOKS like it has a sharp edge gets banned, we'll see how thrilled you are with your new laws.



gmc wrote:

We have a problem with crime as does everybody else, but only a complete lunatic would believe that the answer if for everybody to be armed. Keep the american way you're welcome to it we are a long way from being the violence obsessed culture that america seems to be.


You realize that with this comment, you call me a lunatic? Along with many other members here, and not all of them American.

You're a "long way from the violence obsessed culture America seems to be"??? The above article would quite soundly contradict that statement, and again, it's offensive. Why is it that anywhere there's a gun ban, those citizens seem to think we're obsessed with violence? It's a narrow-minded, stereotypical, ERRONEOUS attitude.



And by the way, gmc, the word 'America' is CAPITALIZED. Your disdain is showing.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Accountable »

Well I think at the very least that the UK should ban assault knives. I mean, the only reason for buying an assault knife is to kill, right? That is the intended purpose of such weapons. Nobody buys assault knives to hunt with. And that excuse that people like to use them just to throw at targets is ludicrous. A household knife is one thing, but the assault knives must go!
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by BabyRider »

Accountable wrote: Well I think at the very least that the UK should ban assault knives. I mean, the only reason for buying an assault knife is to kill, right? That is the intended purpose of such weapons. Nobody buys assault knives to hunt with. And that excuse that people like to use them just to throw at targets is ludicrous. A household knife is one thing, but the assault knives must go!
Why, yes Acc. Simply the term "assault" would indicate to me that it's sole purpose is, of course, assault. No one ever uses a kitchen knife anywhere but the kitchen, right? Only butchers use butcher knives, parers use paring knives, combatants use combat knives.

Oh, wait...does that also mean that only bucks use buck knives? I better replace mine straight away. Now what the hell am I going to do with my fillet knife?
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

Good God, here we go again...

:sneaky:

posted by babyrider

Of course. Absolutely. When I carry my gun, it means I am going out to shoot someone in the head. Isn't that what it's for, after all??


The UK is not the US, if someone is carrying a gun it is illegal and the odds are they have criminal intent. If someone is walking through the streets of a city with a knife on him he is either a chef on his way to work or a thug intending to use it on someone. Somone with a sheath knife out on the hills is probably hunting or climbing (most climbers carry knives to cut ropes etc I carry one myself) if he carries it back in civilisation they are either absent minded or intends to intimidate.

Someone in a night club with a knife has criminal intent, it's that simple. This is not about the British public being disarmed by their government it's about the british public demanding action is taken by the police to stop these little thugs-that's why we pay them.

You realize that with this comment, you call me a lunatic? Along with many other members here, and not all of them American.


In a UK context believing you need a gun for self defence makes you a paranoid nutter that is probably dangerous. Try and understand it is a different culture and yes those in the UK who advocate personal gun possession because they are afraid of being attacked I do regard as lunatics and exactly the type that should not be allowed a gun. If it seems logical in america then so be it.

If I'm going ouit for a night and someone with me is carrying a knife I would walk away becase he or she is exactly the type that will get in to a fight. I'm quite capable of defending myself I just prefer to avoid or talk my way out of it if I can. Our culture is every bit as violent as The US we just don't have guns as part of the equation to the same extent and we want to make sure we don't go the same way.

There was a discussion on Radio scotland-residents in baillieston, Glasgow, are having problems with rival gangs fighting in their streets and causing damage-their remedy is they want cctv installed so the police can spot groups congregating and life made difficult for them and the little sods arrested. What deters crime is the certainty of being caught, severe penalies are irrelevant if you can't catch theem at it. Cuty centre violence is a lot less where there is cctv. it's also quite useful in catching terrorists.

posted by babyrider

And by the way, gmc, the word 'America' is CAPITALIZED. Your disdain is showing.


Oh wow I forgot to put a capital A in America, big deal. Thanks for pointing it out, guess what I hadn't even noticed. Are you now so paranoid you think it's deliberately intented to annoy you? Get a life, find something worthwhile to get annoyed about. At least you can't shoot me for inadvertently giving offence:p
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

At least you can't shoot me for inadvertently giving offence


Crikey I thought i was being facetious!

Gun-law warning for Florida tourists

Leaflets warn visitors: "Do not argue unnecessarily with local people":eek:

http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/article ... 83,00.html
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by BabyRider »

gmc wrote: Oh wow I forgot to put a capital A in America, big deal. Thanks for pointing it out, guess what I hadn't even noticed. Are you now so paranoid you think it's deliberately intented to annoy you? Get a life, find something worthwhile to get annoyed about. At least you can't shoot me for inadvertently giving offence
I don't know if this is factetious or not, (I'd suspect not, even though you claim otherwise) but if it had been only one time that you didn't capitalize, I'd write it off as a typo. Since you consistently capitalize UK, Glasgow, Dublane, and England and never America, it's showing me a passive agressive attitude. If you are making such a ridiculous stretch as this to label me "nutter" or "paranoid" then go right ahead, it's a weak and laughable attempt.

You seem fairly annoyed about the topic yourself, or you wouldn't have felt the need to reply at all. Especially not with pitiful shots such as this. It's a topic about people's liberties. Yeah, I get heated, and I get involved. If that makes me a "paranoid nutter" in your narrow mind, I can live with that.



The rest of your post is not even worthy of a lengthy response, except to say that you quite effectively labeled yourself and your fellow countrymen bigots.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Accountable »

I just heard a sound byte on the radio where Ben Afleck endorsed concealed gun permits for self-protection, even though he doesn't own one himself. I think he's running for office.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

posted by babyrider

I don't know if this is factetious or not, (I'd suspect not, even though you claim otherwise) but if it had been only one time that you didn't capitalize, I'd write it off as a typo. Since you consistently capitalize UK, Glasgow, Dublane, and England and never America, it's showing me a passive agressive attitude. If you are making such a ridiculous stretch as this to label me "nutter" or "paranoid" then go right ahead, it's a weak and laughable attempt.

You seem fairly annoyed about the topic yourself, or you wouldn't have felt the need to reply at all. Especially not with pitiful shots such as this. It's a topic about people's liberties. Yeah, I get heated, and I get involved. If that makes me a "paranoid nutter" in your narrow mind, I can live with that.


If you really think Ii would waste my time not putting a capital A at America just to annoy you that probably says more about you than it does me, sometimes I put i instead of I, does that mean i disdain myself? Usually i put US rathr than America anyway.

I don't know you or anything about you except what i have gleaned on this forum far from trying to annoy you it seems quite difficult not to.

Nothing I have said was aimed at you personally, if you took it that way I apologise for any offence inadvertantly given.

In a UK context the gun debate is not about civil liberties it is about how to stop them becoming more prevalent. We don't want them

People who advocate everybody carrying guns in the UK and who are british are regarded as slightly mad if not downright dangerous. They are the last people who should have them. If I found out my neoghbour had a hand gun I would be concerned enough to get the police involved-especially now they hve been banned.

You're right though I do get fed up with americans telling us we should all be armed and that we have no right because our government does not allow us to have them. It's flat out wrong, wrong , wrong.

After Dunblane the outcry was such it would have been a brave government that did not ban hand guns. In Stirling at a local by-election the pro gun canbdidatehad to be rescued from a lynch mob. (no guns you see)

Most people at grass roots level want to see violent crime dealt with harshly, they are fed up with judges giving light sentences for violent crime. We expect the police and courts to enforce the law, that's what we pay them for, not have to take it in to our own hands.
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Accountable »

GMC, I'm of a mind that giving someone freedom to do a thing doesn't guarantee they will. I am always wary when the gov't thinks they should dictate morality, protect me from myself, or legislate common sense.



Having said that, do you really think that de-criminalising gun ownership will result in a spike in criminal behavior?
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by BabyRider »

gmc wrote: You're right though I do get fed up with americans telling us we should all be armed and that we have no right because our government does not allow us to have them. It's flat out wrong, wrong , wrong.


I myself have never said "You SHOULD all be armed." The point I have repeatedly tried to make, albeit in utter vain, is that you absoutely SHOULD have the CHOICE. It's what I've said all along, it's what I always say, it's what I believe is right, right, right.



Acc, I'm with you: No government has the right to dictate my morality. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

posted by accountable

GMC, I'm of a mind that giving someone freedom to do a thing doesn't guarantee they will. I am always wary when the gov't thinks they should dictate morality, protect me from myself, or legislate common sense.


In the case of law and order it is public demand and attitude that is the driving force.

posted by accountable

Having said that, do you really think that de-criminalising gun ownership will result in a spike in criminal behavior?


It would take on a whole new dimension, what do you think all these numpties with knives would carry instead? Our society is every bit as violent as anyone else's and most scots won't back down if provoked enough. As in any big city if you want gratuitious violence or to get your head kicked in it is very easy to do there are plenty of pubs I would avoid on a saturday unless I was in the mood for a good kicking.

posted by babyrider

I myself have never said "You SHOULD all be armed." The point I have repeatedly tried to make, albeit in utter vain, is that you absoutely SHOULD have the CHOICE. It's what I've said all along, it's what I always say, it's what I believe is right, right, right.

Acc, I'm with you: No government has the right to dictate my morality. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.


If I was American I might be inclined to agree with you about having the right to be armed, but I'm not. Nor is it about our morality being dictated by government.

The UK is a different country with different traditions. Why do you think our police are unarmed for instance?

They are there to enforce the law not to keep the people down which, at the time when the police force as we know it came in to being, was a rather important consideration that it not be seen as an instrument of government used to control the populace but rather as a force to fight crime. That is their function, keep the peace so we can go about our business without being victiims of crime or attacked in the street by some wee tosser with a knife. In the case of guns it is not the Govt saying we can't have them and us all being under the thumb, it is rather us saying to them that this is what we want-there is a problem with gun crime, with knife crime sort it out, keeping the peace is one of the things you were elected to do so pull your finger out and deal with it.

We have made a choice it wasn't foisted on us. What bugs me about some of the posts from the other side of the atlantic on gun issues is they seem to be under the misapprehension that we have no say in the matter, which could not be further from the truth, and persist in the belief that we have been deprived of the right to defend ourselves despite being told it's a load of cobblers, bollocks, bunkum, havers, rubbish, tosh, crap by all the british posters.

It's almost as if they would rather believe we are oppressed rather than conceive of a society where not carrying a gun and not feeling the need to do so is the norm. (note the use of the word they, it's a general comment not aimed at anybody in particular).

As to Scotland and knife crime, just to let you see what some of the politer press think

http://www.eurocare.org/news/scotland290605.html

There is no doubt that Scotland, particularly Strathclyde, suffers from endemic violent crime involving knives. Between 1998 and 2003, around half of the 667 murders in Scotland involved the use of a knife. However, this appalling knife culture has been with us for well over a century. The Executive is right to try to focus on the problem, but in this instance there is more than a hint of politicians legislating in order to be seen to be active. Unfortunately, this particular piece of legislation is bureaucratic, probably unworkable and more than likely to prove as futile as Operation Blade.


As to the gun ban itself

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid ... =273972004

The gun lobby in this country are a small but influential minority that get very little sympathy from the vast majority of the population. We don't just have a loony left we have a loony right as well.
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by lady cop »

i hope this doesn't sound silly GMC, but what about the dirk with kilt? tradition. will that disappear?
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by BabyRider »

You have made a choice to have choice taken away. You're saying to your government, "We are incapable of controlling ourselves, please do it for us." That's my opinion of your gun ban, that will always be my opinon of your gun ban.



Arnold, there is never a need to apologize for your own views, unless your views are judgemental, blanket statements about every gun owner everywhere. Yours never have been, as far as I've ever read. I do have to say, though, Never say "never"!! :yh_bigsmi
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Accountable »

Your culture is yours. I don't get it. I don't understand not trusting your fellow Scots, Brits, whatever, to make as intelligent choices as you do. I have to say I think it's ironically funny that you people get violently passionate about the issue. :wah:

"In Stirling at a local by-election the pro gun canbdidatehad to be rescued from a lynch mob. (no guns you see)" :yh_rotfl

As the Hungarians say when they visit Thailand, C'est la vie!
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

posted by ladycop

i hope this doesn't sound silly GMC, but what about the dirk with kilt? tradition. will that disappear?


The highland dress you see is a romanticised idea of what it was like. Ironic cinsidering it was proscribed for years just as the language was. Actually wearing a real sgian dubh would at the very least lead to a request to remove it in public oe arrest for carrying an offensive weapon,

posted by arnoldlayne

Sorry BR Ive gotta jump in. America has ALWAYS had a gun culture you dont know what it is to exist without the right to own one. You must think differently when refering to us in the UK. We have NEVER had a gun culture and never will have. Not because the government wont give us the choice. We dont want the choice. The only people who will want to own a hand gun are the very people you wouldnt want to !

99.9% of people in Britain will never see, hear or experience a hand gun in any shape or form and that is the way we will keep it.


Our posts must have crossed, eloquently put that essentially is what I was trying to say.
User avatar
Xxena
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:21 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Xxena »

The SECOND AMENDMENT OF THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION IS BASED ON BRITISH LAW, MAYBE NOT CURRENT DAY BUT IT IS BASED ON YOUR LAWS OF CENTURIES GONE BY (AT THE TIME OF OUR FOUNDING) WHERE THE CITIZENS WERE MANDATED TO BE ARMED TO GUARD NOT ONLY THEIR OWN HOMES BUT THAT OF THE KING AND HIS LORDS AS WELL including their surrounding land holdings... SINCE THEY HAD NO STANDING ARMY (KNIGHTS) TO DO SO AT THAT TIME.

Once the locals decided to use those arms to hunt the Kings and Lords GAME... along with the criminal type... Kingiepoo and Lordypoo got all bent out of shape over their "sacred game only for them" and had YOUR law changed so that it was NOW illegal except by invitation (whatever that meant at that time).

The core of our American Constitution, our goverment and our court system is based on British and British law and tweeked for this country !

Remember, more than 3/4 of the states that comprise the United States of America have some sort of a concealed carry law... and despite all the naysayers of the streets running red with the blood and the carnage that would insue.. no such thing has ever occurred at their hands enmasse. Not only that, but the states with no form of concealed carry for firearms and the most draconian firearms laws are also the ones with the HIGHEST violent crime both without and attributed to firearms in the hands of crimnals as well as the highest rate of criminals with illegal firearms whether they use them in crime or not !

Gun control is nothing more than people control.. the law abiding at the hands of their "handlers".. the supposed elected officials that we vote and put into office to serve US, but somehow that really got turned around and the joke is on us... funny, I'm not laughing, espeically when I watch the nightly news and see what these bloated lying cheating bureaucrats continue to get away with at our expense and on our hardearned tax dollars .


The difference between Congress as envisoned by the Founding Fathers and the Congress we have today is one of them inspires patriots to support it, and the other inspires patriots to buy extra ammo (Angel Shamaya):lips:
Bothwell
Posts: 1037
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:35 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Bothwell »

USA population = 275 million

Gun deaths = 10,000+

EU population = 375 Million

Gun deaths = 1,000+

Explain
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

posted by xxena

The core of our American Constitution, our goverment and our court system is based on British and British law and tweeked for this country !




Different country, different history, different legal systems different attitudes as a result. What is appropriate in America is not necessarily so in the UK and vice versa.

Incidentally kingiepoo got his head chopped off, we ended up with a republic, then a military didtatorship then the puritans got control and the ensuing government was so appalling people were actually glad to see a king back. (they banned christmas for goodness sake)l. The idea that you don't need a king to rule is hardly a new one, but that they have their uses is peculiarly very british one. Incidentally ever since then no monarch has had control of the army nor has Britain gone in for keeping large standing armies at home-across the empire yes, large navy yes but not an army at home. There is a famous quote from the Duke of Wellington (can't find a source just now) along the lines of he thought the empire was a good thing as it meant the army could be kept a reasonable size as he thought the british people would not stand for it at home. It would be a very brave british governement that deployed armed troops against their own people (O.K. leaving aside Northern Ireland but you could make a good case that that exploded the situation)

Our police are unarmed for the simple reason that at the time it was to prevent them from being seen as the instrument of a police state (and we had that as well) our freedoms are hard won and are not preserved at the point of a gun.

It is a lot more complicated than we have been deprived of our right to own guns.

I don't own a gun but I am not frightened to say what I think or criticise TB or indeed any member of the Royal family should I be so inclined to do so and very few would call me unpatriotic were I to do so-free country I am entitled to my opinion. The royal family play the game because they know only too well we can do without them if they get out of line.

Gun control in a UK context is politicians doing what people expect them to do. Those who advocate everybody being armed for self defence are-again in the UK context-a fringe element consisting of the type of people you don't want living next to you.

Yes we have problems with government but we will sort that out, they are only in power at our whim and they forget that at their peril. Trying to curb the power of the courts is an indication of where TB would go given half a chance. We have a parliament of sycophants that want to keep their seats as soon as tony is a vote loser (and he is) they will chuck him out.

I would lay odds that tony Blair is on his way out and his cronies with him, the last labour party conference where they were not allowed to discuss who would succeed him or the war in iraq was the end, I reckon a lot of die hard labour supporters are ready to vote elsewhere. It's not the party activists that matter. (just my opinion but I am free to say what I like just as others can shout rubbish and we can argue about it all without the accusation of being unpatriotic or un-british being levied. ). On the other hand for an octigenarian to be arrested for shouting rubbish at Jack straw was a bit much even for TB.

This idea that you need a gun to protect yourself from your government does tend to suggest that a lot of americans feel that their government is no longer answerable to them and they are frightened of what it might do and afraid to speak out and that their votes count for nothing. It's almost as if being able to own a gun is a sop to reassure you that you are still free. Not trying to antagonise you here just making an observation here. None of us feel oppressed by our government or afraid to say what we think.

On the other hand when GW was here the Americans insisted on a cordon to keep any anti-war demonstrators away from him, very un-british that, we are allowed to protest in this country, it's part of our culture if politicians don't like it they can sod off.

posted by accountable

I have to say I think it's ironically funny that you people get violently passionate about the issue.

"In Stirling at a local by-election the pro gun canbdidatehad to be rescued from a lynch mob. (no guns you see)


We get passionate but not usually violent about it-he probably wouldn't have been lynched but he was stupid enough to be dismissive of others opinions as being a hysterical reaction to their children being killed by a nutter with a gun. Luckily none of the parents had a gun or they might have been tempted to use it in a fit of anger. But then we have a political process to deal with folk like him. Stirling used to be a safe Tory seat.
Bothwell
Posts: 1037
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:35 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Bothwell »

Typical Arnold you want across between a Greek liquer ouzo and an Israeli gun Uzi:D

Actually we could form the old farts militia, I am sure we would both have no trouble completeing basic again:D
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Bez »

The thought of the citizens of the UK carrying guns leaves me cold.......too many people with little self control !
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
Bothwell
Posts: 1037
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:35 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Bothwell »

Bit like dads army. Are you Cpt Mainwaring or me


I think I will be Coporal Jones "Don't panic"
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Bez »

ArnoldLayne wrote: Steady Bez. i'm always in control


Sorry Arnold.........of course you are !!;)
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Accountable »

Bothwell wrote: Typical Arnold you want across between a Greek liquer ouzo and an Israeli gun Uzi:D



Actually we could form the old farts militia, I am sure we would both have no trouble completeing basic again:D
Personally, I prefer Uzo (I believe that's the spelling) a Korean liquor popular among the penniless GI's. :wah: Could easily double as a flame thrower if you spit it through a lighter.
Jives
Posts: 3741
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Jives »

This whole thread reminds me of just how intelligent the designers of the American constitution were when they allowed the personal owning of guns.

No matter what you do, you won't stop criminals from committing crimes. Better to arm the populace and put up with a few gun accidents and murders than to make the entire population a possible victim.

Without that provision, the police state gradually appears. Seig Heil.:cool:
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Jives
Posts: 3741
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:00 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Jives »

Pearl Harbor wrote: It also gives the police more powers to stop and search.... causing concern in human rights circles.


From right here in PearlHarbor's original post.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Bothwell
Posts: 1037
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:35 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Bothwell »

I ask my American friends again

USA population = 275 million

Gun deaths = 10,000+

EU population = 375 Million

Gun deaths = 1,000+

Explain please
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Accountable »

Bothwell wrote: I ask my American friends again



USA population = 275 million

Gun deaths = 10,000+



EU population = 375 Million

Gun deaths = 1,000+



Explain please
Fewer guns, fewer gun deaths. Betcha third world countries have fewer electrocutions.



I'm comfortable with the UK laws in the UK and the US laws in the US. God help us all if we swap.
User avatar
Xxena
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:21 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Xxena »

First off where are those figures coming from, what legitimate source.

Secondly, what makes up those figures - it that ALL Crime, does that include

suicide, accidents and in the crime area what is the breakdown, premeditated

murder, organized criminal activity like street gangs and the Mafia be it Italian, Russian, Chinese etc...

What are the age groups - there is a definite pattern to gun deaths both with and without the crime relationship.

Where are these crimes clustered, very large urban areas, small suburian areas, real rural areas.

I've played this game with the control control people for going on 18 years now.. when you come up with the legitimate statistics based on the true research it makes a very different picture rather than just lumping numbers and throwing them out.

You are also clumping the EU.. which means European Union, that is not the UK,

nor it is any single country... and you are not noting the coutries that have mandatory gun ownership and training such as Switzerland, Israel etc.

I'm not sat down and pulled up the resources for the stats in a quit awhile but

I can tell you this from 18 years of being on the other side of the battle.. the progun side.. when you start showing where the numbers come from and what the causes and effects are it tells a very very different picture and some of the most vehement antigun people have taken a very different stance once given

the facts and the stats just from the USA alone.

Even more interesting.. you should see if the UK or EU have any documented and recorded intereview with life criminals both out and behind bars.. and see what they have to say about civilian ownership of firearms and who they pick to prey upon and why...

phones ringing.. gotta run..


The difference between Congress as envisoned by the Founding Fathers and the Congress we have today is one of them inspires patriots to support it, and the other inspires patriots to buy extra ammo (Angel Shamaya):lips:
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

posted by jives

This whole thread reminds me of just how intelligent the designers of the American constitution were when they allowed the personal owning of guns.

No matter what you do, you won't stop criminals from committing crimes. Better to arm the populace and put up with a few gun accidents and murders than to make the entire population a possible victim.

Without that provision, the police state gradually appears. Seig Heil.


Course it was intelligent, they pinched all the best ideas from the British.

Can't say i agree, you are on the slippery slope to a police state when you start giving your government the right to lock people up without trial-TB is trying that here but has a fight on it's hands-you have it in guantanimo. When you give the government the right to decide who should or should not be entitled to a trial-you did just that.

When the government tells the courts how to interpret the law and starts to believe that their decisions should not be answerable to the law-again TB is trying that here but hopefully finding increasing opposition. Yours holds people in a place where american courts have no jurisdiction. Why? What are they afraid of? It's a very basic right-no one should be held without being able to face his accuser in an open court.

Politically appointed judges-our law lords are an odd bunch but at least they aren't afreaid of the government yet.-TB is trying for a supreme court as US version, but who would trust a politician.

An uncritical mass media that don't quiz politicians properly for fear of being unpatriotic-TB still has a fight o his hands there and faces a long tradition of taking the **** out of politicians.

Would there ever ne an American spitting image, or would it be banned as unpatriotic?

When an outside enemy is used to divert attention from home problems and people are hyped up in to a constant state of fear so they accept the curbing of their rights. Saddam did it with Iran, now Iran does it with the US as the bogeyman TB doesn't get away with it so much-we had years of IRA terrorism to learn from and didn't need to extend police powers then and are therefore sceptical now.

An armed police force. We don't have armed police for just that reason. Nor are you likely to see armed troops being used against their own population on mainland Britain, they have been ready to in the past of course, in the 1920's and during the general strike but they didn't because the govt were terrified of the people's response if they did.

Large standing army-we don't have one, more to the point we wouldn't pay for one unless we are going to war with another country.

TB does not have the same kind of powers as a president although TB seems to think he should have them, Parliament can still stop him cold if they want to. (lovely comment from George Galloway on question time-he saw a shiver running along the labour benches looking for a backbone to run up)

Governments rule, people empower them to. You have a problem when what the people think has no effect and they can't call the government to heel. You are on our way to a police state when it becomes unpatriotic to question or criticise what your government does in your name. You are on your way to a police state when you can get arrested for wearing a t-shirt with a slogan on it.

Or in our case shouting rubbish at a miister of state even if the labour party had to apologise, it's the mentality that would curb dissent you should worry about.

We live in a country where if the police stop you they need to have a good reason, you don't have to worry about overmuch about getting because of a misunderstanding, although it does happen on very rare occasions.

If either the US or UK end up as police states it will gradually, bit by bit as basic freedoms are nibbled away and people get out of the habit of laughing at politicians and start trusting them to have their interests at heart and believe the crap they are told.
User avatar
Xxena
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:21 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Xxena »

gmc wrote: posted by jives



Governments rule, people empower them to. You have a problem when what the people think has no effect and they can't call the government to heel. You are on our way to a police state when it becomes unpatriotic to question or criticise what your government does in your name. You are on your way to a police state when you can get arrested for wearing a t-shirt with a slogan on it.

Or in our case shouting rubbish at a miister of state even if the labour party had to apologise, it's the mentality that would curb dissent you should worry about.

We live in a country where if the police stop you they need to have a good reason, you don't have to worry about overmuch about getting because of a misunderstanding, although it does happen on very rare occasions.

If either the US or UK end up as police states it will gradually, bit by bit as basic freedoms are nibbled away and people get out of the habit of laughing at politicians and start trusting them to have their interests at heart and believe the crap they are told.


That sums it up quite well..

The preamble of the United States Constitution:

" We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

WE THE PEOPLE.. NOT WE, Corporate America, the Politically Correct, the Ruling Elite, rich and Famous, the sitting President and Congress..

WE THE PEOPLE the citizens of this country that without us, the positions for the rest of those mentioned and Congress would not exist.

" establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, promote general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty"... in my mind that is quite simple and when

it comes to the criminal element.. YOU DO THE CRIME... YOU DO THE TIME and the punishment should fit the crime. THAT does not mean taking the liberties which include the 2nd amendment away from the people that do abide by these very

simplistic rules and regulations set forth by the preamble and its constitution and amendments.

That amendment gives the citizens that live by the letter of the law, the RIGHT

if they should decide to use it... it does not demand people be armed anymore than it should disarm them. I have no quarel with people that are uncomfortable with firearms for any reason, no matter how misguided some of their phobia's often are.. I was there once myself years ago. But I do draw the line when someone TELLS me I have no right and I should be a sitting duck victim for the mad and the bad when I live my life as lawful and respectful as I can.

As for other countries.. what they have and are comfortable with is fine with me.. I take offense when they dicate to me based on what they know and live from their side of the pond not being here in my shoes on my side.

I noted earlier that good portion of American Law including the 2nd amendment of our constitution is directly taken from English Law from wence most of our ancestors came.. Your parlimentary proceedure slightly tweeked for our own system is still used today in our Congress, the houses of the States, our own Cities and town in their council meetings as well as our courtrooms for trials. The reason it can be so foreign to people here in the States is based in the fact that very few have any real experience in the politcal or judicial realm other than what they see on TV shows to know how things and done and why and what its based upon. Very few have hands on experience in politics or legal realms so they base their knowlege on perceived realism vs fact.

When you have a country and its population that is as large as the USA or most of the modern world in this day.. it stands to reason that some of the things that were provided openly without much legislation generations ago have to be reworked to be functional in this current century. I'm not a supporter of more gun laws, but a handful that are very well based in facts and experience make sense for the protection of everyone. I think the 22 -, 23,000 in this county that continues to grow is beyond ridiculous since when you sit down and actually read any of them beyond the first dozen or so.. it becomes evident that they are doing nothing more than saying the same thing in as many ways as possible over and over and systematically digging away at the rights of the law abiding due to our inablity to effectively deal with the criminal element in this country both from

within and from the outside that worms its way in.

The thought that "NO GUNS equals NO CRIME" is beyond laughable... you can go back as far as you want in recorded history - hundreds and hundreds of years long before the first firearm was ever invented in its crudest state and you still had crime, you had rape, murder, muggings, theft and the list of violent crimes prior to the manufacture of firearms goes on and on. Hell they used the cover of the "CRUSADES" to commit some of the most heinous crimes man has ever commited against fellow man.. in the name of GOD... there were NO GUNS THEN and look at the torture, carnage and slaughter of innocent people...

The issue is well beyond the use of a manufactured tool for either good or bad.. the issue is the depravity that the human mind can fanthom against its fellow humans and then proceed to carry out with whatever tools are at hand, which statistically speaking is often their hands more times than not vs. something manufactured like knives, axes, guns etc..


The difference between Congress as envisoned by the Founding Fathers and the Congress we have today is one of them inspires patriots to support it, and the other inspires patriots to buy extra ammo (Angel Shamaya):lips:
User avatar
Xxena
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:21 pm

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Xxena »

Far Rider wrote: *looks up from cleaning my nails with my 4" fairbairn-applegate knife*

You wanna take my fingernail cleaner? what? it's just a tool. I can much more easily kill ya with my hands as the knife. The knife limits my options keeps my hand busy holdin it. Matter of fact I'd pobably not ever use it to kill someone, too messy.



I find it interesting they want to arrest for "carrying" are they assuming carrying is an intent to use it to wound or kill?

I have carried a knife for as long as I can remember, other than cutting myself and accidentally sticking my bothers toe in a game of chicken ... I've never stabbed any one. All through highschool every kid I knew carried a knife... my 501's had "permanent pocket warn" in the shape of a small two bladed whittler...

I have a collection of knives, foriegn military knives mostly, given to me in my travels... They are keepsakes. A history of my life in the service.


Too funny FAR... you're preaching to the choir bud !

Funny story and then I need to return some calls.. my last year in politics I had

to go to the county courthouse for something.. don't really recall what it was for..but had to do with my position and something going down to the state for vote...signatures needed etc.

Courthouse is about 20 minutes from home so I drove over there - parked in the big public parking garage... went into lobby, showed them my ID badge and the documents I had with me to sign in front of their clerk and file... Officer at desk told me I had to go through the metal detector due to the department I was going into... said no problem and got in line... my turn, put my coat and my purse and briefcase onto the belt and walked through.. I went through with no problems since they had me take my rings and earrings off and put with my purse in the basket... my "stuff" goes through and the bells and whistles go off.. they go through my coat and determine its the metal closures on it.. go through my briefcase which only had documents, sent that through alone and that was ok... handed me my jewlery back and sent my purse through again and that set it all off again..

Guard asked if I had anything metal in there that I could recall and I said yes, my silver compact and my pocket knife I always carry in case of emergency... He said OK... could you please take them out put in this basket and then we'll send your purse though again... purse was AOK..

basket with the compact and pocket knife sent the thing screaming again...guards

kinda laughed seeing it was something obvious... one opens my knife and gets this look on his face ...takes out a tape measure.. I reply .. its within legal limit

of length... He replies.. yeah by 1/4" under the max ! You could gut a deer with this during hunting season.. my reply.. my husband has but I always sterilze it afterward for road trips and food. Guy holds it up to examine and says what

is this on here... I looked it over carfully and replied 7 year old fine aged chedder.. we were trying it after getting it at the Cheese shop in Wisconsin coming back from a hunting trip few months back. I forgot about it and to wash it things get so hectic.

One guard started to laugh and asked where the cheese shop was... the other told me I could not go down that hall with it and they'd have to hold it until I was done with city business.. he gave me a ticket to get it back..

Completed City Biz and went to get my knife which seemed to be the center of attention and discussion in the area where the County Cops pool during breaks and holding "stuff" for people... they were cool, not nasty or disrespectful in any way but 101 questions ... not only where I got it but why it looked like it did, colors, etc. I explained its a "hunters survival knife".. the casing is glow in the dark and also it floats if you're on or near water... husband and I are true outdoors sportsmen and spend all our free time (little we have) doing stuff outdoors in various states and seasons, fishing, hunting, tracking etc.. and where we go there are lots more wild woods creatures bigger than us so it does not hurt to be prepared. We've used it for everything from gutting a deer, to use as a screw driver, a saw for branches for camp fire, cutting food to eat, to cutting clothes and making bandages when someone was injured and the list went on and on.. I was so use to having it on me and to use when needed (splicing wires

in the van when we had an electrical problem in the middle of bumblefark)..I forget

I have it in my purse.

One of the officers recognized me from one of the Charity shoots which combine civilian and police shooters against each other to raise $$ for some local charity and he remembered me pulling it out of my purse to adjust the screw on my sights on one of my rifles when it worked it way loose and told the others about it laughing. I gave them the place to order from, the costs, they gave me my knife back with a reminder to remember to leave it home or in the vehicle next time I had to come to the court house for any business. Thanks them all and left.

The officer that recognized me reminded me that had I not had my Public Officals

Badge with me and shown it being on offical business, they probably would not have been as nice about the whole thing as they were... which I am WELL aware of... another perk of politics that the general population has no idea exists and a disparity that I dislike having been on both sides.


The difference between Congress as envisoned by the Founding Fathers and the Congress we have today is one of them inspires patriots to support it, and the other inspires patriots to buy extra ammo (Angel Shamaya):lips:
Bothwell
Posts: 1037
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:35 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by Bothwell »

First off where are those figures coming from, what legitimate source.




Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania.

I think the answer has already been given, more guns more deaths. The figures are for Gun Homicides they do not include suicides etc, Of course they are Skewed towards a certain section of the population that is bound to happen.

Whilst I cannot claim to know the constitution intimately wasn't the original idea that if the government got too uppity the bearers of arms could use those arms to bring it back into line. Is that actually likely to happen? If a State did not like what Bush was Doing could they then legally arm themselves and march on DC claiming their second amendment rights.

Whilst some wording or sentiment from british law is always quoted as the basis for the Constitution (Magna Carta being one) it is different in so many fundamental ways that it bears little comparison. You have an Entrenched Written Constitution with a Federal system, we have NEVER had such a thing.

Once you have this written document it gives people the opportunity to interperet it as they see fit, the second amendment being a classic example, the separation of Church and State being another.

One little thought on the knife debate, a gun ban is simply that, are we saying that if you banned guns those 10,000 odd deaths would be replaced by knife killings, I don't think so, for a start you have to get whithin arms length to kill someone with a knife
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Gun Ban: No Guns = No Crime. Right?

Post by gmc »

posted by xxena

As for other countries.. what they have and are comfortable with is fine with me.. I take offense when they dicate to me based on what they know and live from their side of the pond not being here in my shoes on my side.




Actually it's usually an american that brings the topic up, it's as if they can't conceive of a society without guns and everybody ready to attack each other.

posted by far rider

*looks up from cleaning my nails with my 4" fairbairn-applegate knife*

You wanna take my fingernail cleaner? what? it's just a tool. I can much more easily kill ya with my hands as the knife. The knife limits my options keeps my hand busy holdin it. Matter of fact I'd pobably not ever use it to kill someone, too messy.



I find it interesting they want to arrest for "carrying" are they assuming carrying is an intent to use it to wound or kill?


Depends on the context, if you are carrying even a knife-even a model knife, (carrying a model knife, retractable DIY knife not sure what the US term would be,) in to a night club it is a fairly safe assumption that you are not about to do some DIY, same thing, why are you carrying a kitchen knife in a pub? It's a fairly safe bet it is being carried as an offensive weapon. If you are carrying one on the hills and are camping then you have a good reason for carrying it openly, going in to a shop or pub with it still on might be absent mindedness but if tyou are a joiner would yu carry your hammer around with you. Most scottish policeman would recognise a fairbairn knife as a killing weapon not a working tool-we call them commando knives, and carrying one will get you arresyed and charged with carrying an offensive weapon. Who was applegate?

Return to “Gun Control”