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Post by Saint_ »

Ahso!;1412964 wrote: only have the entire thing expire ten years later.


Thanks to republican NEOCON opposition and TEA party insanity. I blame them all.
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Post by Bruv »

Saint_;1412968 wrote: NRA Lobbyists. @#$%&*@!!!!


Be careful...............they are the ones with the guns.........aren't they ?
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Post by gmc »

I suppose if they did vote to ban guns it would feed directly in to the paranoia - how would you get them to disarm?
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Post by Bruv »

gmc;1412984 wrote: I suppose if they did vote to ban guns it would feed directly in to the paranoia - how would you get them to disarm?


That was my point in asking how to make it happen.

Some would take to the hills with small arsenals declaring themselves independent like 1776..........load of nutters, they would have been better off in the Common Wealth.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

gmc;1412984 wrote: I suppose if they did vote to ban guns it would feed directly in to the paranoia - how would you get them to disarm?
This is a constitutional question. It has nothing to do with voting. It would be like voting for school segregation. Requires a constitutional amendment, which is not an easy thing. And you couldn't disarm the determined, it would wind up as another Whacko Texass (sorry Accountable!) :wah: There are actual militias out there--they've been praying for such a confrontation! :yh_worshp

"Violence is as American as Cherry Pie"

- H. Rap Brown
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Post by Bruv »

What about Amendment 21 ?

There could always be an Amendment 28 repealing the 2nd Amendment..........given the will.

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Post by Accountable »

AnneBoleyn;1412990 wrote: This is a constitutional question. It has nothing to do with voting. It would be like voting for school segregation. Requires a constitutional amendment, which is not an easy thing. And you couldn't disarm the determined, it would wind up as another Whacko Texass (sorry Accountable!) :wah: There are actual militias out there--they've been praying for such a confrontation! :yh_worshp

"Violence is as American as Cherry Pie"

- H. Rap BrownYou're right.



Bruv;1412995 wrote: What about Amendment 21 ?

There could always be an Amendment 28 repealing the 2nd Amendment..........given the will.

You are the Nation that put a man on the moon remember.
This is what I was talking about:

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/consp ... ost1412867
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1412995 wrote: What about Amendment 21 ?

There could always be an Amendment 28 repealing the 2nd Amendment..........given the will.

You are the Nation that put a man on the moon remember.


Going to the Moon was not only an exceptional act, but notable in Human History.

The right to self defense is a human right. You may disagree, and that is fine. I will not argue.

Repealing, 2nd Amendment is impossible.

I would like you to consider two facts.

First of all the multiplication of states which have SHALL ISSUE CONCEAL CARRY LICENSES.

Next, consider that since Obama was elected president that gun sales, or at least NICS report checks have done nothing but increase year by year.

The best friend of gun manufacturers is President Obama.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Accountable;1412830 wrote: I haven't seen any fear commercials by the NRA. I don't recall ever having seen any ads by the NRA.


Funnily enough, they've just played one on UK TV - by Chuck Norris as I recall. It didn't get a good review.
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Post by flopstock »

Bryn Mawr;1413109 wrote: Funnily enough, they've just played one on UK TV - by Chuck Norris as I recall. It didn't get a good review.
Was it an ad or a news report showing an old ad? I haven't seen any chuck Norris ads over here in ages.:wah:
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

flopstock;1412871 wrote: I agree that america needs to leave other countries to self determination. I am a strong advocate of bringing our kids home and protecting our own borders.



But China is not a good example for your argument, IMO.

Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Perhaps if the principal was licensed to carry, this may have ended differently. Maybe better, maybe worse. There is no way to know.



I do think we are in for more off the wall activities this coming week .


Tiananmen Square did a thousand times more to change the oppression in China than it could ever have done if the protesters had been armed.

And yes, it would have ended differently - it would have been a total massacre. Do you think that the soldiers would have stood line abrest in a stand off for hours against an armed "mob"? Do you think that the kickback would have occurred if it had been a gunfight? Do you think that the protesters could have won such a gunfight?

Remember the event of the morning after? A lone shopper stopping a line of tanks by refusing to move? The realisation that they could not kill *another* unarmed protester?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

flopstock;1413110 wrote: Was it an ad or a news report showing an old ad? I haven't seen any chuck Norris ads over here in ages.:wah:


It was an ad shown on a news report but it does go to show that the NRA do put ads onto US TV.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1413106 wrote: Going to the Moon was not only an exceptional act, but notable in Human History.

....................Repealing, 2nd Amendment is impossible.




Why is it impossible ?

They said landing on the moon was impossible.
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Post by Ahso! »

Bruv;1413151 wrote: Why is it impossible ?

They said landing on the moon was impossible.I'll happen one day, just perhaps not in our lifetime, assuming of course we don't all kill one another beforehand.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by Ahso! »

Bryn Mawr;1413123 wrote: Tiananmen Square did a thousand times more to change the oppression in China than it could ever have done if the protesters had been armed.

And yes, it would have ended differently - it would have been a total massacre. Do you think that the soldiers would have stood line abrest in a stand off for hours against an armed "mob"? Do you think that the kickback would have occurred if it had been a gunfight? Do you think that the protesters could have won such a gunfight?

Remember the event of the morning after? A lone shopper stopping a line of tanks by refusing to move? The realisation that they could not kill *another* unarmed protester?Excellent points.
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Post by Bruv »

Ahso!;1413152 wrote: I'll happen one day, just perhaps not in our lifetime, assuming of course we don't all kill one another beforehand.


It must happen.....or you will.
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Post by Ahso! »

Bruv;1413156 wrote: It must happen.....or you will.It's certainly beginning to look that way, isn't it. It's frightening how paranoid some of us are. People talk about self defense like they actually need it 24/7. I'm 56 years old with 7 siblings, two parents, in-laws, a partner, 5 kids, 2 grandkids, and a bunch of friends and acquaintances and I can't think of one instance where a gun was ever needed to my knowledge.
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1413152 wrote: I'll happen one day, just perhaps not in our lifetime, assuming of course we don't all kill one another beforehand.


Keep telling yourself that.

I am not a betting man. But it looks like you have quite a handicap to overcome, and freedom will prevail as one by one the control freaks loose ground.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

tude dog;1413164 wrote: Keep telling yourself that.

I am not a betting man. But it looks like you have quite a handicap to overcome, and freedom will prevail as one by one the control freaks loose ground.


How very emotive.

OK, let me use your idiom. Where is the freedom of the children to live their lives. What of the control freak who killed them.

I'd much rather have a rational discussion of the issues than and battle of the epigrams.
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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1413164 wrote: Keep telling yourself that.

I am not a betting man. But it looks like you have quite a handicap to overcome, and freedom will prevail as one by one the control freaks loose ground.Spoken like a true patriotic warrior and war strategist, however short-sighted it may be.

Life on this planet has been evolving for somewhere in the neighborhood of about 3.6 billion years, and it may continue for another 3.6 billion for all we know, and you'd like anyone to believe your nonsense that the second amendment to the US Constitution will live on until life ceases to exist? The US itself will be lucky to last another 100 years at the rate its going.

American conservatives are just so damn foolish.
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1413157 wrote: It's certainly beginning to look that way, isn't it. It's frightening how paranoid some of us are. People talk about self defense like they actually need it 24/7. I'm 56 years old with 7 siblings, two parents, in-laws, a partner, 5 kids, 2 grandkids, and a bunch of friends and acquaintances and I can't think of one instance where a gun was ever needed to my knowledge.


Lucy you. I sincerely wish you and yours a good fortune in the future.
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Post by tude dog »

Bryn Mawr;1413165 wrote: How very emotive.

OK, let me use your idiom. Where is the freedom of the children to live their lives. What of the control freak who killed them.

I'd much rather have a rational discussion of the issues than and battle of the epigrams.


OK well put.

By all accounts free people in this country are aquiring firearms at a record rate, Laws concerning firearms have been coming more in line with the 2nd Amendment. All the while, nationally crime rates are going down.
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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1413173 wrote: OK well put.

By all accounts free people in this country are aquiring firearms at a record rate, Laws concerning firearms have been coming more in line with the 2nd Amendment. All the while, nationally crime rates are going down.How about a citation or two.
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1413168 wrote: Spoken like a true patriotic warrior and war strategist, however short-sighted it may be.

Life on this planet has been evolving for somewhere in the neighborhood of about 3.6 billion years, and it may continue for another 3.6 billion for all we know, and you'd like anyone to believe your nonsense that the second amendment to the US Constitution will live on until life ceases to exist? The US itself will be lucky to last another 100 years at the rate its going.

American conservatives are just so damn foolish.


HUH?

Man that's deep.

Who's your Guru anyway?

Hey, what's up with that Mayan Calendar?
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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1413177 wrote: HUH?

Man that's deep.

Who's your Guru anyway?

Hey, what's up with that Mayan Calendar?Yeah, that's how conservatives treat any science related facts. It's not that deep for people who spend time thinking and learning instead of feeding their paranoia.
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Post by Ahso! »

Bryn Mawr;1413165 wrote: How very emotive.

OK, let me use your idiom. Where is the freedom of the children to live their lives. What of the control freak who killed them.

I'd much rather have a rational discussion of the issues than and battle of the epigrams.That's rather generous.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1413175 wrote: How about a citation or two.


Dude, where you been?

I am not saying this proves a contention that more guns equal less crime. But at the very least more guns don't hurt.

OK, just or you.

How many guns are sold in the US?



Home | Key Facts at a Glance

Key Facts At A Glance

Violent crime trends

Download spreadsheet version

National Crime Victimization Survey Violent Crime Trends, 1973-2008

Adjusted violent victimization rates

Number of victimizations per 1,000 population age 12 or older

Total

violent crime Aggravated assault Simple

assault

Year Murder Rape Robbery



1973 47.7 0.1 2.5 6.7 12.5 25.9

1974 48.0 0.1 2.6 7.2 12.9 25.3

1975 48.4 0.1 2.4 6.8 11.9 27.2

1976 48.0 0.1 2.2 6.5 12.2 27.0

1977 50.4 0.1 2.3 6.2 12.4 29.4

1978 50.6 0.1 2.6 5.9 12.0 30.0

1979 51.7 0.1 2.8 6.3 12.3 30.3

1980 49.4 0.1 2.5 6.6 11.4 28.8

1981 52.3 0.1 2.5 7.4 12.0 30.3

1982 50.7 0.1 2.1 7.1 11.5 29.8

1983 46.5 0.1 2.1 6.0 9.9 28.3

1984 46.4 0.1 2.5 5.8 10.8 27.2

1985 45.2 0.1 1.9 5.1 10.3 27.9

1986 42.0 0.1 1.7 5.1 9.8 25.3

1987 44.0 0.1 2.0 5.3 10.0 26.7

1988 44.1 0.1 1.7 5.3 10.8 26.3

1989 43.3 0.1 1.8 5.4 10.3 25.8

1990 44.1 0.1 1.7 5.7 9.8 26.9

1991 48.8 0.1 2.2 5.9 9.9 30.6

1992 47.9 0.1 1.8 6.1 11.1 28.9

1993 49.1 0.1 1.6 6.0 12.0 29.4

1994 51.2 0.1 1.4 6.3 11.9 31.5

1995 46.1 0.1 1.2 5.4 9.5 29.9

1996 41.6 0.1 0.9 5.2 8.8 26.6

1997 38.8 0.1 0.9 4.3 8.6 24.9

1998 36.0 0.1 0.9 4.0 7.5 23.5

1999 32.1 0.1 0.9 3.6 6.7 20.8

2000 27.4 0.1 0.6 3.2 5.7 17.8

2001 24.7 0.1 0.6 2.8 5.3 15.9

2002 22.8 0.1 0.7 2.2 4.3 15.5

2003 22.3 0.1 0.5 2.5 4.6 14.6

2004 21.1 0.1 0.4 2.1 4.3 14.2

2005 21.0 0.1 0.5 2.6 4.3 13.5

2006a

2007 20.4 0.1 0.6 2.4 3.4 13.9

2008 19.0 0.1 0.5 2.2 3.3 12.9

2009 16.9 1.1b 0.3 2.1 3.2 11.3

Breau of Justice Statistics
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Post by Ahso! »

tudedog wrote: By all accounts free people in this country are aquiring firearms at a record rate, Laws concerning firearms have been coming more in line with the 2nd Amendment. All the while, nationally crime rates are going down. tude dog;1413182 wrote: Dude, where you been?

I am not saying this proves a contention that more guns equal less crime. But at the very least more guns don't hurt.Contradict yourself much?

tude dog;1413182 wrote: OK, just or you.



You've invalidated your own argument with your non-proof. I've heard of that happening, but it's a first for me. Thank you.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1413170 wrote: Lucy you. I sincerely wish you and yours a good fortune in the future.


Why would anybody need 'Good fortune' in a land free of firearms ?

Why can't the 2nd amendment be over ruled if the majority want it to be, America is still a beacon of democracy isn't it ?
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1413179 wrote: Yeah, that's how conservatives treat any science related facts. It's not that deep for people who spend time thinking and learning instead of feeding their paranoia.


I can't speak for conservatives, but what are you talking about?

Billions of years, evolution, after the extinction of humans. Not really relevant to anything I posted about.
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Post by tude dog »

Ahso!;1413183 wrote: Contradict yourself much?


Been known to happen, and when pointed out I really appreciate it.

Ahso!;1413183 wrote: You've invalidated your own argument with your non-proof. I've heard of that happening, but it's a first for me. Thank you.


Really?

How's that? I don't know how to make it more clear. Have a problem with my facts?
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Post by tude dog »

Bruv;1413188 wrote: Why would anybody need 'Good fortune' in a land free of firearms ?


Gee. Guess it just doesn't pay to try and be nice.

Bruv;1413188 wrote: Why can't the 2nd amendment be over ruled if the majority want it to be, America is still a beacon of democracy isn't it ?


You aren't form this country, are you?

First of all, we are not a democracy. We are a republic.

More to the point the Constitution can't be changed by majority vote.

From the rule book itself.

ARTICLE V

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1413193 wrote: Been known to happen, and when pointed out I really appreciate it.



Really?

How's that? I don't know how to make it more clear. Have a problem with my facts?You contradicted yourself again.

Unless you can find a correlation between crime and death reduction in the US population with increased gun ownership and carry permits your argument is moot and your statistics are worthless to this discussion.

It's best not to make statements that you can't support. You attempted to wiggle out of a statement simply because it's broken up into two sentences. Wishing for something to be true and factual doesn't make it so.

I called your bluff and you were found out. Learn from that and permit yourself to be a bit more open minded. Follow the facts instead of trying have them follow you. Okay?
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Post by Ahso! »

tude dog;1413194 wrote: Gee. Guess it just doesn't pay to try and be nice.Your statement wasn't "nice", it was patronizing, and you know it.
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Post by Saint_ »

tude dog;1413173 wrote: All the while, nationally crime rates are going down.


And large scale gun massacres have been skyrocketing. 65 this year alone. And 30,000 Americans dead this year from guns.

Sure petty larceny is down, but I'd take it right back to not have a whole city shot to death each year. America is gun-insane.
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Post by flopstock »

What are the odds that this fades away with the new year?

President Obama's options on gun control - Reid J. Epstein and Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com



And what about the NRA? I didn't think I had heard from them since this happened. :thinking:

NRA goes on lockdown - Anna Palmer - POLITICO.com
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Post by flopstock »

Here's an idea...

Stop school shootings by letting teachers fire back, say Texas officials | Fox News
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Post by Saint_ »

flopstock;1413220 wrote: Here's an idea...


It's a dumb idea since it assumes that people dedicated to children would somehow be OK with killing them. No teacher I know wants to shoot any child, even bad ones.

As a matter of fact, no teacher I know (and I know hundreds) is for guns at all. We all want to ban them completely and repeal the second amendment. (See: Japan)
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Post by Saint_ »

flopstock;1413205 wrote: What are the odds that this fades away with the new year?


What are the odds that this fades away until the next bloody massacre? Oh wait...that's probably next week...
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Post by flopstock »

Saint_;1413226 wrote: It's a dumb idea since it assumes that people dedicated to children would somehow be OK with killing them. No teacher I know wants to shoot any child, even bad ones.



As a matter of fact, no teacher I know (and I know hundreds) is for guns at all. We all want to ban them completely and repeal the second amendment. (See: Japan)


But you don't know all teachers, as evidenced by this article.



I don't like the idea, but if I had been in that situation Friday, I would have loved to have had access to a gun... and I don't own one.



The problem I see with this logic is that we then have to trust that all of these folks are mentally sound.
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Post by flopstock »

Saint_;1413227 wrote: What are the odds that this fades away until the next bloody massacre? Oh wait...that's probably next week...


I agree. I think the politicians can't wait to get out of town for christmas.
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Post by Bruv »

tude dog;1413194 wrote: Gee. Guess it just doesn't pay to try and be nice.



You aren't form this country, are you?

First of all, we are not a democracy. We are a republic.

More to the point the Constitution can't be changed by majority vote.

From the rule book itself.

ARTICLE V


Ahso!;1413196 wrote: Your statement wasn't "nice", it was patronizing, and you know it.


No worries Ahso, I have lived long enough to recognise a bluff and bluster type bully.

He reckons his country America is NOT a democracy, but is a Republic.......I wouldn't know of course..........because I am not form his country.......like I don't really know enough to chat the same phart as he does.

He appears to believe the American Constitution was carved in blocks of stone.....(Bet its a bugger for the stonemason.....every time there's an Amendment)

Twenty seven (27) so far according to my limited understanding.....mind you the stonemason shouldn't have bothered chiseling the 18th, the buggers amended it back, bet he was fuming.



As a non religious person all I can say is god help America if that is the level of argument for or against gun control.
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Post by Saint_ »

guns+schools+children (especially teens)= bad idea. We've talked about this lots of times. There is no password, lock, door, window, crawlspace, compartment, desk, vault, computer, laptop, hard drive, jump drive, or diary that children do not get into eventually, especially if they want what's in there. Kids are naturally inquisitive, and sometimes even clinically kleptomaniacal. ( We have one right now that cannot be left alone.)

It's a universally common tenet among teachers, "Don't bring anything to school that you don't mind losing." (Ask Chonsi if you don't believe me!)

How long would it take before a student got a hold of a teacher's gun? I'm betting on one week or less.

More guns=more trouble. Period.
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Post by Saint_ »

Here's something else to think about: I know lots of teachers who have been attacked by out of control, emotional, or intoxicated students. (I once had a girl attack me when I tried to break up a fight between her and another girl. She hurt my back pretty good. It was like trying to hold off a vicious mountain lion!)

How long until a teacher decides their life is in jeopardy and guns down a student? Do we really want to go there? Travon Martin in the classroom?
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Post by Saint_ »

tude dog;1413194 wrote:

More to the point the Constitution can't be changed by majority vote.




Unless the majority of Americans want it to. (See: Prohibition)

The Constitution is, and was always meant to be, a living document that could change with the times. (Hence "Amendments" meaning "to change!") The Founding Fathers were wise enough to understand that the future could involve things they were incapable of imagining and would need laws for.

Things such as cloning, stem cell research, space travel, nuclear weapons...and thousands of Americans dead by American guns in American hands.
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Post by Accountable »

Saint_;1413251 wrote: Unless the majority of Americans want it to. (See: Prohibition)

The Constitution is, and was always meant to be, a living document that could change with the times. (Hence "Amendments" meaning "to change!") The Founding Fathers were wise enough to understand that the future could involve things they were incapable of imagining and would need laws for.

Things such as cloning, stem cell research, space travel, nuclear weapons...and thousands of Americans dead by American guns in American hands.


Unfortunately, politicians are too lazy to go through the complexity of actually changing the Constitution, and opt for creatively interpreting it instead.

Oh, and no, if a majority of Americans want to amend the Constitution, it doesn't necessarily mean it can happen. It goes state-by-state.
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Post by Saint_ »

Accountable;1413271 wrote: Unfortunately, politicians are too lazy to go through the complexity of actually changing the Constitution, and opt for creatively interpreting it instead.

Oh, and no, if a majority of Americans want to amend the Constitution, it doesn't necessarily mean it can happen. It goes state-by-state.


There you go again. Stepping all over my deluded belief systems. Do you want me to actually have to live in reality? Have you no mercy?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

tude dog;1413173 wrote: OK well put.

By all accounts free people in this country are aquiring firearms at a record rate, Laws concerning firearms have been coming more in line with the 2nd Amendment. All the while, nationally crime rates are going down.


Year on year the number of atrocities of this type are going up - in a civilised society this is unacceptable.

Look at the US death rate due to gun crime. Compare it to the rate in the rest of the world. Justify the difference.

Personally, I do not give a damn about your second amendment - I see the number of deaths and I weep.
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Post by Bruv »

How about the country that gave the world the "Regime change" having one themselves ?
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