UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

There is so much I can write about this. I'm really quite curious about what the opinion is from our longtime true friends in the UK.

The British government has completely stripped away any defense capability from her citizens.

In addition, their legislation makes everyone a criminal. Next will be a ban on screwdrivers, sharpened pencils, scissors, clippers, and safety pins.

Take a minute to read this article:

http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=215

Take note of paragraph 3 and 4. Amazing. The police acknowledge that American burglars overwhelmingly prefer empty houses while in England, Canada, and Australia they enter houses at will, not caring if anyone is home.
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Let's criminalize the whole UK society! The UK Government is getting desperate due to the absolutely amazing rise in violent crime in the UK since they outlawed firearms.

It's laughable to think that the criminals will abide by the law. The very people you want armed to ensure a peaceful society are now nothing more than criminal bait.



Criminals 'to face mandatory jail' for carrying a knife By Rajeev Syal

and Patrick Hennessy (Filed: 15/08/2004)

Criminals caught carrying knives will be automatically jailed for at

least two years, under plans being drawn up by the Home Office.

New legislation, to be announced this autumn, will order judges to give

the minimum sentence to anyone carrying a knife with intent to use it

in a criminal act.

The move follows the introduction of the Criminal Justice Act in

January, which imposed a mandatory five-year sentence for possession of

a prohibited firearm.

Proposals for similar legislation against knives follows a rise in the

number of recent stabbings.

David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, asked officials to draw up the

plans after Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner,

suggested that the law should be tightened.

A spokesman for Mr Blunkett said: "The Home Secretary is aware of

growing concern about the use of knives. We are actively looking at how

best to deal with this situation through legislation." Sir John,

Britain's most senior police officer, said that he had spoken to Mr

Blunkett about the introduction of a minimum sentence for anyone caught

carrying a sharp weapon.

"Not only do we need to look at the cause, to prevent these people from

carrying these knives, at the same time we need to harden up the

penalties on people carrying knives," he said.

"We already have a five-year mandatory sentence for guns, and that is

an option. He [Mr Blunkett] knows of my opinion . . . They [offenders]

need to be reminded of the fact that they can go to prison for carrying

knives."

Mr Blunkett's decision to tighten the law follows several recent

well-publicised stabbings. lan Pennell, 16, was convicted two weeks ago

for the murder of Luke Walmsley, 14, in a school corridor - an attack

that prompted a public outcry.

Yesterday, two teenagers were charged with the murder of 19-year-old

Sayed Abbas, who was stabbed to death at Hounslow West Underground

station in west London last week.
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... ory=552376

I would do it again, says father who stabbed intruder

By Jason Bennetto 17 August 2004

A man who admitted stabbing a suspected burglar with a bread knife to

protect his wife and child is being investigated for assault.

Antonio Caeiro, 33, who said he wounded a 19-year-old intruder at his

home in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, said yesterday that he would do the

same again to defend his family.

The incident has similarities with the case of Tony Martin, the Norfolk

farmer who was convicted of manslaughter and jailed for shooting dead a

teenage burglar in 1999.

The suspected burglar in this case is being treated in hospital where

he is described as being in a serious, but stable condition. Mr Caeiro,

a pub manager, claimed he stabbed the intruder in the chest and leg

with the 12-inch knife in self defence as they struggled in his kitchen

before the teenager fled.

Mr Caeiro, who is from Portugal, said: "All I was doing was acting in

self defence. This man had entered my home and I felt he might harm me

or my family. Of course I am sorry that he was hurt, but he had no

right to be in my house. If I had to do the same thing again to protect

my family then I would do it.

"I thought he was going to kill me or rape my wife. Anyone in my

position would have done the same thing. I understand why the police

had to arrest me - but I have done anything wrong."

Mr Caeiro claimed he was woken by his 28-year-old wife's screams at 2am

on Saturday when the burglar came into their bedroom.

He said the 6ft tall intruder had pulled away their 14-month-old

daughter's cot from the side of their bed causing the child to fall on

the floor and cry.

Mr Caeiro said: "This man was kneeling at the side of my bed and

started touching the legs of my wife.

"My wife woke up screaming and then I woke up. The man then ran

downstairs and went out through the kitchen door."

Mr Caeiro, who is 5ft 6ins, rang 999 to report the break-in and was

told by police that because the intruder was no-longer believed to be

in the house they would be there in 15 to 30 minutes.

He said: "I looked out into my yard and saw a shadow. I was frightened

and I grabbed the bread knife from a rack because my first thought was

that I had to stop my family being harmed. I opened the back door ...

then this man attacked me with a metal bar.

"He hit me on the shoulder and I was knocked back into the kitchen. The

door opened and the man tried to come inside.

"I stabbed him in the leg and then we ended up fighting and I stabbed

him in the chest.

"We fought for about a minute outside ... then he managed to break away

and run down the alley at the back of my house."

Mr Caeiro said he tried to call the police again, but got no reply. He

then called a friend who alerted police officers who arrived three

minutes later.

The intruder was arrested near by on suspicion of burglary. Police also

arrested Mr Caeiro on suspicion of assault, and later released him on

bail pending further inquiries.

The police will investigate the case and can decide not to charge Mr

Caeiro. Alternatively they can send a file of the evidence to the Crown

Prosecution Service which will decide whether there is a case to answer

and whether it would be in the public interest to prosecute.

Mr Caeiro said he was making arrangements to move to a new home in

Great Yarmouth because he fears reprisal attacks.

The incident is certain to rekindle debate about how far someone can go

to defend their own home, which went to the heart of the case of Tony

Martin. Mr Martin, of Emneth Hungate, near Wisbech, served a three-year

jail sentence for killing 16-year-old Fred Barras and wounding Brendan

Fearon after they broke into his home at Bleak House farmhouse.
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

The argument for me isn't one of "shooting".

It's one of:

1. deterrence

2. leveling of the playing field at a minimum. preferably tilting the favor to the intended victim is my preference. the bad guys usually have a weapon. law-abiding citizens in a gun controlled society do not. these laws benefit the bad guys.

3. self-reliance. it's just a fact that the police are relegated to a mop-up role in many many cases.

4. the basic moral and ethical right of a human being to be able to protect themselves, their children, their spouses, their relatives, their friends.

Notice I put deterrence as #1. Many a bad situation has been diffused and many more have never even been initiated due to the fact that the "criminal" was aware of the deterent capability of his/her intended victim.

Sure, there are *exceptions to this. But when you are dealing with exceptions, all bets are off and the victim usually ends up taking a dirt nap.
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Tombstone wrote: The argument for me isn't one of "shooting".

It's one of:

1. deterrence

Notice I put deterrence as #1. Many a bad situation has been diffused and many more have never even been initiated due to the fact that the "criminal" was aware of the deterent capability of his/her intended victim.




Hey! I'm monopolizing my own thread! :) Here's another snippet:



Virginians who exercise their right to carry guns in public have been criticized — even ridiculed — in recent days by critics on the both sides of the Potomac. But many gun rights advocates, state lawmakers and residents point out that it's much safer to shop, drive or walk along a street in Virginia than in the District, where handguns are banned and police just declared a "crime emergency."

"Criminals don't want to come up against somebody who is willing to protect themselves," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the gun rights group Virginia Citizens Defense League.



Mr. Van Cleave said Virginia also is made safer by people who carry concealed weapons.

"The idea there is the criminals don't know who's carrying a gun," he said. "They don't wish to mess with people much because they don't know who will be able to defend themselves."

Mike Stollenwerk, a Fairfax County resident and a permit holder, said being able to carry a weapon openly gives people a sense of security.

Read more: http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20040719 ... -3826r.htm
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
illuminati
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by illuminati »

Anyone from the UK looking at this thread? I too, would like to know what is really happening there.

Don't be shy - post up!
User avatar
illuminati
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by illuminati »

plazul wrote: I used to believe in the deterrence aspect too but with today's drug crazed and sociopathic criminals you can't count on rationality.




Yes, I would agree with Tombstone that this would fall under the exception. :)

My view is that the *true gun-crazed gang culture is somewhat confined to a few big problematic metro areas. It is easy to get swept up with the belief that "gangstas" are everywhere. Especially easy to think this if you live in L.A., Detroit, Chicago, Philly, and a few other places. Gangsta wannabe's don't count.



My conservative friends want to spend more money on prisons but I think government has a role to play in some sort of reverse social engineering that will undo the mistakes of Sixties social programs and create real opportunities for the underclass. I want to liberate young people from early death and a life that's ruined before it even begins.

Forget gun control. Let's start with birth control.


I vote for education reform.
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Bill Sikes »

> There is so much I can write about this. I'm really quite curious about what

> the opinion is from our longtime true friends in the UK.

It's not a populist issue. It is not important for most people.



> The British government has completely stripped away any defense capability

> from her citizens.

How is that, then?



> In addition, their legislation makes everyone a criminal. Next will be a ban

> on screwdrivers, sharpened pencils, scissors, clippers, and safety pins.

You'll have to explain that one.



> Take a minute to read this article:

>

> http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=215

>

> Take note of paragraph 3 and 4. Amazing.

Yes, the whole thing seems a distinctly screwy and distorted version of fact.



> The police acknowledge that

> American burglars overwhelmingly prefer empty houses while in England,

> Canada, and Australia they enter houses at will, not caring if anyone is home.

I don't know about the Canada, Australia, or the USA, but in Britain (of

which England is a component) the above statement is inaccurate.
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Bill Sikes »

> Why all this concern for the welfare of us Brits.

Hi, Fred, I imagine it's an anti-gun control thing (AGC). The AGC people need to

point to countries where there is gun control, and say "Oh, look, don't restrict

our use of guns, or else we'll end up like they are in England (or wherever)

where it's really really bad" (except that it isn't).

> As to the owning of firearms over here. They aren't and never were owned

> as a 'defensive' measure but purely for either sport or work.

That's it. I use mine for sport.
User avatar
xlt66
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by xlt66 »

Good post. I was wondering about this myself.

The concern for the welfare of the Brits? That seems a little cynical to me. I wouldn't be surprised if most Brits thought the Americans (us) were scoundrels but I don't think that is even a little true of how the Americans feel about Britain.



oldfred wrote: Why all this concern for the welfare of us Brits.

Depending on which of the figures we choose to believe, those issued by the Home-Office, or those of the police, crime in general has either dropped by 5% or risen by 1% in the past 12 months.

Admittedly violent crime has risen by 12% in that same time, but as both the HO and police say, this rise is due in main to alcohol....not guns, knives, or even screw-drivers.

As to the owning of firearms over here. They aren't and never were owned as a 'defensive' measure but purely for either sport or work.

Take my word for it Us Brits are getting along just fine and are reasonably happy with the way we live our lives.

Of course if someone wants to send a few food-parcels over I'm sure we could put them to good use.

Fred
User avatar
xlt66
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by xlt66 »

I wouldn't argue against that. I think both sides have valid points to this argument. I find myself using anecdotal evidence to bolster my case. :) Whatever the subject. :)

There are several people on this forum who are pro-gun. I am pretty sure that all of them are not raving lunatics. As one person put it, their guns are like furniture. No big deal. These are the kind of people who I depend on to keep society sane.

We have a pretty long history with guns and their symbol of freedom for us. The thought of "the government" taking away that symbol upsets many.

I could (but won't!) argue that handguns should stay out of the large metro areas. But that is a bad argument. The mother-of-all gun control laws is in Washington D.C. and they have big problems. But then again, I view this more like rats in a box. Too many people in too small an area combine to cause chaos.



Bill Sikes wrote: > Why all this concern for the welfare of us Brits.

Hi, Fred, I imagine it's an anti-gun control thing (AGC). The AGC people need to

point to countries where there is gun control, and say "Oh, look, don't restrict

our use of guns, or else we'll end up like they are in England (or wherever)

where it's really really bad" (except that it isn't).

> As to the owning of firearms over here. They aren't and never were owned

> as a 'defensive' measure but purely for either sport or work.

That's it. I use mine for sport.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Hi oldfred,

Thanks for your reply. Why the concern for the Brits? Well, I for one have a common heritage, I have several British friends, and Britain's politics can have a ripple effect over here in the U.S.

Throw out the gun issue for a minute. The items I have been reading about and have been talking to my British friends about can be summed up by the following excerpts:

"In England "[m]erely threatening to defend oneself can also prove illegal, as an elderly lady discovered. She succeeded in frightening off a gang of thugs by firing a blank from a toy gun, only to be arrested for the crime of putting someone in fear with an imitation firearm" (p. 184).

Not even if one's life is in danger can one legally use a weapon. In another case, two men assaulted Eric Butler in a subway, smashing his head and choking him. "In desperation he unsheathed a sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of them. . . . The assailants were charged with unlawful wounding but Butler was also tried, and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon" (p. 185)."

The right to self-defense using anything more than your fists looks to be outlawed.

I guess you won't ever feel the outrage until you are in a position of needing to protect yourself. Lord help you if you try to get that playing field level and use a like-type weapon.



oldfred wrote: Why all this concern for the welfare of us Brits.

Depending on which of the figures we choose to believe, those issued by the Home-Office, or those of the police, crime in general has either dropped by 5% or risen by 1% in the past 12 months.

Admittedly violent crime has risen by 12% in that same time, but as both the HO and police say, this rise is due in main to alcohol....not guns, knives, or even screw-drivers.

As to the owning of firearms over here. They aren't and never were owned as a 'defensive' measure but purely for either sport or work.

Take my word for it Us Brits are getting along just fine and are reasonably happy with the way we live our lives.

Of course if someone wants to send a few food-parcels over I'm sure we could put them to good use.

Fred
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Hi Bill,

Guilty as charged! I will never deny my enthusiasm for the right of individuals to have the tools to protect themselves. I also will never deny the "ability" of individuals to protect themselves either - without fear of prosecution.



Bill Sikes wrote: > Why all this concern for the welfare of us Brits.

Hi, Fred, I imagine it's an anti-gun control thing (AGC). The AGC people need to

point to countries where there is gun control, and say "Oh, look, don't restrict

our use of guns, or else we'll end up like they are in England (or wherever)

where it's really really bad" (except that it isn't).

> As to the owning of firearms over here. They aren't and never were owned

> as a 'defensive' measure but purely for either sport or work.

That's it. I use mine for sport.
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Warsai wrote: Yes, maybe it should.

(goes off to start a new thread)


Warsai, maybe you can come back here and post the new thread link for us. I'd like to follow it!
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Excellent analogy!



oldfred wrote: My 'concern for the welfare of the Brits' was a direct response to 'UK madness regarding gun control'.

I'm sure the vast majority of Brits don't see the Americans as scoundrels, but we do occasionally approach things from a different point of view.

I liken it to a family who defend each other from outsiders, but aren't affraid

to have the occasional squabble between thmselves.

Fred
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
xlt66
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by xlt66 »

oldfred wrote: The sad thing is why on earth did we allow these neighbourhoods to go bad in the first place....but maybe that should be another thread.

Fred


Indeed. I can't even fathom the responses on that thread!
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Bill Sikes »

Gosh, this *is* late. Nice drop of cider and time to relax... this"forum" thing is

a whole lot more clunky than the simplicity and availability of Usenet news,

isn't it? Anyway:-

Reasonable force is the phrase. Tony Martin, for instance, would have been

OK had he not killed his man whilst he was running away. He was tried by

a jury, who decided his guilt after examining evidence from both sides.

The man who stabbed an intruder doesn't seem to be in any danger of

being convicted of anything as far as I can see.
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Bill Sikes »

This from "oldfred":

> Sometimes I find it difficult to defend certain of our laws....but I strongly

> believe that while these certain laws are in place it is our duty to obey them.

Yup. Where the structure seemd to me to fail is the lenient treatment of

convicted criminals. The punishment no longer seems to fit the crime.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Understood and well said.



oldfred wrote: Thankfully the cases you quote don't happen as frequently as you may have been led to believe over here....though a single case is one too many in my opinion.

Right or wrong, the law over here sees the use of immitation firearms almost as serious than if it had been a real one.

Again, right or wrong, Eric Butler was already committing a criminal offence when he left his home carrying a sword-stick.

Sometimes I find it difficult to defend certain of our laws....but I strongly believe that while these certain laws are in place it is our duty to obey them.

Fred
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

Bill Sikes wrote: Gosh, this *is* late. Nice drop of cider and time to relax... this"forum" thing is

a whole lot more clunky than the simplicity and availability of Usenet news,

isn't it?


It's 9 p.m. here right now. Just got in and am starting to settle back. I think I'll have something cold and hearty. :)

I'm a forum junkie now. Usenet has devolved from what it used to be, unfortunately. Making a post there puts your online life at risk. :p

I appreciate your and oldfred's input and comments here. It gives a great perspective on what is going on and its a firsthand view - which is very important.







Anyway:-

Reasonable force is the phrase. Tony Martin, for instance, would have been

OK had he not killed his man whilst he was running away. He was tried by

a jury, who decided his guilt after examining evidence from both sides.

The man who stabbed an intruder doesn't seem to be in any danger of

being convicted of anything as far as I can see.
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

Hey Everyone,

As you know, I post a lot of stories. I like to watch the discussions develop around them. The gun control topic interests me. I have to agree with Tombstone regarding the right to self defense. As I research the Press and stories relating to crime, I'm finding interesting anecdotal evidence to support the contention that certain Western societies are turning the act of self defense into a crime. It's very interesting. I have some catching up to do on my readings here, but bear with me. I am going to post just a few of many articles I've found. The next few posts are from an editor of a newspaper in Winnipeg. He condenses some new current events that I found interesting.





Tombstone wrote: There is so much I can write about this. I'm really quite curious about what the opinion is from our longtime true friends in the UK.

The British government has completely stripped away any defense capability from her citizens.

In addition, their legislation makes everyone a criminal. Next will be a ban on screwdrivers, sharpened pencils, scissors, clippers, and safety pins.

Take a minute to read this article:

http://www.mises.org/misesreview_detail.asp?control=215

Take note of paragraph 3 and 4. Amazing. The police acknowledge that American burglars overwhelmingly prefer empty houses while in England, Canada, and Australia they enter houses at will, not caring if anyone is home.
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

Fri, August 20, 2004

Recoil from evil

By JOHN GLEESON -- Winnipeg Sun



Forget the waste, the futility, the alleged fraud committed in the name of Canada's firearms registry -- Americans found an even better reason to shoot down the idea in our times. They saw the evil that men were doing with it.

Modern U.S. opposition to gun registration dates back to the Second World War (not the Wild West, as too many Canadians cartoonishly think) and began as a healthy recoil from Nazi abuses.

As Virginia-based author and constitutional lawyer Stephen P. Halbrook has documented in his groundbreaking studies of Nazi gun laws, America was months away from entering the war when the U.S. attorney general urged Congress to create a program to register all the firearms in the nation. It was 1941 -- more than a half-century before Canada would embark on the same folly.

Read more:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnist ... 92781.html
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

'Thank God I live in America!'

By JOHN GLEESON -- Winnipeg Sun



Last week's column on Australian security guard Karen Brown had an effect. It made many Americans who read it online proud as hell, and relieved as hell, to be Americans.

And since it was picked up as a link on the National Rifle Association website, Brown's story -- she's been charged with murder for fatally shooting a robber after he bashed in her face -- triggered a like-minded reaction from just about every state of the union.

More:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnist ... 80118.html
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

Guns and deep remorse in the land Down Under

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnist ... 70539.html

I found this story in the online edition of the Sun Herald, billed as Australia's biggest-selling daily newspaper, while researching a letter claiming robberies in Australia had soared since strict gun controls were introduced.

The letter painted a scary picture of government disarming law-abiding citizens and thus giving free rein to violent criminals. But it turned out the stats were outdated, unreliable and the issue, according to the morning editor at the Sun Herald, was dead except for "a few pissed-off farmers."

That, of course, was a media-type talking and I would probably have gotten a similar response from her counterparts in Toronto, Vancouver or Montreal. Maybe even Winnipeg.

In reality, Australia does have a "statistical problem" with rising violent crime rates. So does Britain -- and both countries took unprecedented steps a few years back to not only regulate firearms, but to confiscate them. Australians spent at least half a billion dollars to collect and destroy hundreds of thousands of legally owned guns, and the result? No decrease in violent crime, armed robberies up by 166%.

These disturbing trends have given a new weapon to the North American gun lobby, which also points to a dramatic drop in violent crime in the U.S. during the same period, as state after state -- 20 in the past two decades -- relaxed the rules for carrying concealed handguns for personal protection.

Read more:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnist ... 70539.html
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

More Gun Control Isn`t The Answer

Gun control has not worked in Canada. Since the new gun registration program started in 1998, the U.S. homicide rate has fallen, but the Canadian rate has increased. The net cost of Canada`s gun registry has surged beyond $1-billion--more than 500 times the amount originally estimated. Despite this, the Canadian government recently admitted it could not identify a single violent crime that had been solved through registration.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/Nati ... 61504.html
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

Americans Sharpen Shooting Skills

Target shooting dates back to the 14th century, and it became an Olympic sport in 1896. And while some worry about recreational gun safety, the government says a person is more likely to get hurt riding a bike, playing basketball or swimming.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,123134,00.html
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

Three Little Words

"At dinner in Paris a couple of years ago, I was asked about `this American sickness with guns.` I said, `Americans have guns, because a lot of Americans like having guns.` My host scoffed. `A lot of people here would like to have guns, too. But they don’t.`”

http://www.steynonline.com/index2.cfm?edit_id=25
User avatar
CVX
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by CVX »

Who Are The Real Gun Owners?

Firearms users often get an undeserving negative portrayal in the popular press and films. It`s time for the real story to be told. A new book and a DVD provide some much-needed balance.

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/general/col ... 57315.html
User avatar
Tombstone
Posts: 3686
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Tombstone »

oldfred wrote: I totally agree with you there Bill.

Over here people are often sent to prison for up to 25 years for such offences as armed robbery, yet the average time someone serves in prison for murder is a paltry 14.8 years.

I guess property is more important than life!

Fred


We have the same problem here - but it is with controlled substances. A person caught with a tiny amount of amphetamines might as well have killed a person! The sentences *can be very similar.

I think it is a shame. But then again, that's a whole new thread!
Please use the "contact us" button if you need to contact a ForumGarden admin.
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Bill Sikes »

"By JOHN GLEESON -- Winnipeg Sun

And since it was picked up as a link on the National Rifle Association website, Brown's story -- she's been charged with murder for fatally shooting a robber after he bashed in her face -- triggered a like-minded reaction from just about every state of the union."



Oh, FFS. Chinese whispers. Do you know anything or the real case, rather

than what's reported in the "Winnipeg Sun", via the laughable NRA?

From a report in Australia (Google is your friend):

"About 11:00am Monday 26 July, 40-year-old security guard Karen Brown

departed the Moorebank Hotel with the weekend's takings in a backpack.

The Elite Guard Force Security guard was working alone and dressed

inconspicuous. On the steps of the hotel a male person approached and

knocked her to the ground with a knuckle-duster. The offender gathered

up the backpack and walked casually back a beige Ford Falcon, latter

identified as stolen.

Ms Brown stumbled to her feet and called to the thief to stop. With blood

streaming down her face she went after him. The offender by this time had

entered the getaway vehicle. Ms Brown got within 2 metres of the vehicle

and fired one shot through the side window, hitting the 20-year-old robber,

William Aquilina in the head."

Makes it a bit difficult to claim self defence, doesn't it.
User avatar
Pearl Harbor
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Pearl Harbor »

Bill Sikes wrote:

Oh, FFS. Chinese whispers. Do you know anything or the real case, rather

than what's reported in the "Winnipeg Sun", via the laughable NRA?

From a report in Australia (Google is your friend):

"About 11:00am Monday 26 July, 40-year-old security guard Karen Brown

departed the Moorebank Hotel with the weekend's takings in a backpack.

The Elite Guard Force Security guard was working alone and dressed

inconspicuous. On the steps of the hotel a male person approached and

knocked her to the ground with a knuckle-duster. The offender gathered

up the backpack and walked casually back a beige Ford Falcon, latter

identified as stolen.

Ms Brown stumbled to her feet and called to the thief to stop. With blood

streaming down her face she went after him. The offender by this time had

entered the getaway vehicle. Ms Brown got within 2 metres of the vehicle

and fired one shot through the side window, hitting the 20-year-old robber,

William Aquilina in the head."

Makes it a bit difficult to claim self defence, doesn't it.


I don't think the NRA is laughable. Many fine people belong to this organization.

This poor lady was hit with a knuckle-duster? You mean brass knuckles? These can kill a person easily. So, he attacked her with a lethal handheld device and left her (as far as he knew) dying on the ground. This is attempted murder.

Would you argue that if a person tried to kill you that you would do nothing? Nothing? This may not be self-defense, but it is a valid response to near lethal battery. What more do you need to know? This poor girl did not start the conflict. Why is the criminal the victim? Why do so many British people demonize people who fight back?
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Bill Sikes »

Pearl wrote:

> This poor lady was hit with a knuckle-duster? You mean brass knuckles?

That's it - a prohibited weapon, too!

> These can kill a person easily. So, he attacked her with a lethal handheld

> device and left her (as far as he knew) dying on the ground. This is attempted

> murder.

It could be murder if he *did* kill her (possibly manslaughter) - I don't know

what the Aussies system is. Here, in the UK (Britian) it would be assult causing

(actual|grevious) bodily harm. It would only be attempted murder if he intended

to kill her (well, there are other special circumstances in which it could be murder).



> Would you argue that if a person tried to kill you that you would do nothing?

Of course not. Whatever put *that* into your head?

> Nothing?

If she'd shot him whilst the attack was in progress, or even slightly before,

it would probably not have been a problem.

> This may not be self-defense, but it is a valid response to near lethal battery.

No, it certainly is not. If the circumstances are as reported, it is murder - just

like it was, and should have been, in Tony Martin's case. The circumstances are

similar.



> What more do you need to know? This poor girl did not start the conflict. Why

> is the criminal the victim?

He isn't (or rather, wasn't). The woman who shot him seems to be guilty

of a greater crime.



> Why do so many British people demonize people who fight back?

They don't. See above.
User avatar
Pearl Harbor
Posts: 128
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by Pearl Harbor »

It looks like we will have to agree to disagree. See remarks below.



Bill Sikes wrote: Pearl wrote:

> What more do you need to know? This poor girl did not start the conflict. Why

> is the criminal the victim?

He isn't (or rather, wasn't). The woman who shot him seems to be guilty

of a greater crime.




I wouldn't say greater. She was the victim. She responded with force. She should have used better judgement and held the guy for police or shot out his tires. But considering the state she was in, I think she just reacted and responded like most people would.

The criminal put himself in that position. Tough luck, I say. This guy won't be able to beat up any more ladies.
User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by capt_buzzard »

There are more guns here in Ireland held by terrorists groups and now since the so called peace process of the Good Friday Agreement,many guns are hired out to thugs and other criminals to intimidate people and rob them at gunpoint. The police are investigating is all we told. Youths high on drugs are attacking our senior citizens daily. Many of our older citizens are too frightened to leave their homes after 9pm.

Its mob rules OK in some area's of our major cities,Dublin Limerick and Cork.

http://www.sbpost.ie/ - http://www.irish-independent.ie/
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by gmc »

to quote bill sikes

Yes, the whole thing seems a distinctly screwy and distorted version of fact.


We were not disarmed by our government. we elect them and can unelect them just as easily, clearly the author has her own demented conspiracy theory. We are not victims

Most people in the UK would be horrified if we went the way of the US so far as guns are concerned. The laws already exist to control violent crime the problem is some of the sentences handed down leave a lot to be desired but that is a seperate problem.

In Glasgow in the 60's in the days of the razor gangs the number of knife attacks went down when the magistrates started handing out tougher sentences. The same happened when they started doing the same recently in respond to growing trend in attacks with Stanley knives. In Scotland carrying a knife will get you "lifted" and charged with carrying an offensive weapon and long may it continue. The only possible reason for carrying a knife in a city is to use it on someone.

Most murders are commited by people who know their victim well and are easily caught, random killings are very rare as are cases of child abduction by strangers which is why they hit the headlines when they occur. We quite simply do not have the same scale of violence as you do in the US, one or two isolated cases is just that isolated cases.

So far as Tony Martin is concerned it was a JURY trial of his peers that felt shooting the guy in the back was a bit excessive if understandable.

If I see someone vandalising my car I can do something about it in the certain knowledge that they are unlikely to be armed with a gun.

When they banned handguns in the UK it was because of public demand that they do so. In stirling after the Dunblane massacre a pro gun candidate in the local by election had to receive police protection to prevent him being lynched (I exagerrate but you get the idea)

When I meet some of the shooting lobby my instinct is to take the guns away from anyone that thinks he should be able to carry one anywhere near me.

The gun debate is as much a cultural one as anything else. I would not criticise the US since I think it is a peculiar problem of your own arising from your history as much as anything else that you have to sort out yourselves.

But it is not one that can be translated to the UK in particular or europe come to that. it is quote literally a different culture

If you want to get your head kicked in you can get in to a fight in any city in the world, I prefer to live in a country where getting shot is unlikely in the extreme.
User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by capt_buzzard »

oldfred wrote: I totally agree with you there Bill.

Over here people are often sent to prison for up to 25 years for such offences as armed robbery, yet the average time someone serves in prison for murder is a paltry 14.8 years.

I guess property is more important than life!

Fred


Same here in Dublin Fred,
User avatar
anastrophe
Posts: 3135
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm

UK Madness Regarding Gun Control

Post by anastrophe »

Angiepangie wrote: Why do so many Americans do that? Your country and cultures are no better than anywhere else in the world.
really? our country and cultures are no better than, say, france, where the wearing of a yamulka is now forbidden? or yemen, where women have no rights? or china, where dissent against the government is a fast ticket to prison? or india, where women are still set on fire if their family doesn't provide a good enough dowry in marriage? or the sudan, where the janjaweed are killing black because they are blacks? or thailand, where little girls are sold into sex slavery? we're no better than them?





In fact there are things about the USA that make many people recoil in horror - your country's obessesion with gun ownership being on of them.
well, then don't move here. seriously. those people who get freaked out by legal gun ownership should not move here. since we don't have any problems with legal gun ownership here, then why subject yourself to mental anguish by moving here? if you simply don't like how we live over here, but are comfy-cozy living in your own land, then i'd say, why even think about it? tend to your own business, and your own country's problems. gun ownership here does not affect your life over there, does it?





Time to stop thinking your superior methinks, and start thinking about the world as a whole, instead of what America should be to the rest of the world.
no thank you. britain is no shining light of superiority. you have a lavish history of supressing and destroying cultures all over the world. wasn't exactly too popular with the cultures you overran. india for example. plenty of others. so the shoe is on our foot right now. but we aren't simply taking over countries for the fun of it, as britain did. in fact, we've not taken over any countries at all.



the united states is what it is. whether other nations 'like us' is silly. the world is not a popularity contest. we aren't vying for 'miss congeniality'.



the UK has draconian gun control. that's your business. if you're all happy with it, great. my complaint is with chuckleheads who point to the UK as an example of 'effective gun control', and suggest that applying it here is what is needed. it is not. the fact is, without banning guns, our violent crime rates have been dropping for nearly the last ten years - while yours have been steadily rising. if the goal is less violence, you are failing miserably. so, enough with the UK's own 'thoughts of superiority'. your gun control isn't working. so holding yourselves up as superior in that respect is tedious, at the very least.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]

Return to “Gun Control”