Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

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CVX
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by CVX »

From: Virgin Money

An overwhelming number of Britons believe they should have the right to protect their home and family against intruders, a crime study reveals today.

On the day that the Householder Protection Bill is due to be introduced in Parliament, the study from Virgin Money Insurance found that a massive 99 per cent of people believe they should have the right to defend their home and family against burglars and intruders.

The study, which looks into attitudes on home security, also found that nine in 10 (92%) people would, like Ozzy Osborne, be prepared to physically defend their home against intruders and burglars. And a worrying one in six go as far as keeping a weapon close to their bed at night in case of intruders.

Although millions of Britons are prepared to fight to protect their homes, the Virgin Money Insurance research reveals that 87 per cent of people surveyed think that current law is weighted in favour of criminals.

According to the survey, the fear of crime is high for Brits, with half of all homeowners worrying about their home being broken into. But, despite three quarters of people saying that hearing stories of other people being burgled makes them feel more vulnerable, one in six people still do nothing to improve current security systems.

When it comes to home security measures, The Virgin Money study found:

• Only a meagre 17 per cent of people have an alarm and only 37 per cent of people have window locks

• Only 4 per cent of people are a member of a Neighbourhood Watch scheme

• Only one in 10 people make changes to their home security after reading about other people being burgled despite the fact it makes them feel more vulnerable

• Women are more fearful about their security in the home with six in 10 worried about being broken into at night and eight in 10 feeling more vulnerable after reading about other people being burgled.

More:

http://www.virgin.com/news/default.asp? ... =374&pst=-
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capt_buzzard
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by capt_buzzard »

CVX wrote: From: Virgin Money

An overwhelming number of Britons believe they should have the right to protect their home and family against intruders, a crime study reveals today.

On the day that the Householder Protection Bill is due to be introduced in Parliament, the study from Virgin Money Insurance found that a massive 99 per cent of people believe they should have the right to defend their home and family against burglars and intruders.

The study, which looks into attitudes on home security, also found that nine in 10 (92%) people would, like Ozzy Osborne, be prepared to physically defend their home against intruders and burglars. And a worrying one in six go as far as keeping a weapon close to their bed at night in case of intruders.

Although millions of Britons are prepared to fight to protect their homes, the Virgin Money Insurance research reveals that 87 per cent of people surveyed think that current law is weighted in favour of criminals.

According to the survey, the fear of crime is high for Brits, with half of all homeowners worrying about their home being broken into. But, despite three quarters of people saying that hearing stories of other people being burgled makes them feel more vulnerable, one in six people still do nothing to improve current security systems.

When it comes to home security measures, The Virgin Money study found:

• Only a meagre 17 per cent of people have an alarm and only 37 per cent of people have window locks

• Only 4 per cent of people are a member of a Neighbourhood Watch scheme

• Only one in 10 people make changes to their home security after reading about other people being burgled despite the fact it makes them feel more vulnerable

• Women are more fearful about their security in the home with six in 10 worried about being broken into at night and eight in 10 feeling more vulnerable after reading about other people being burgled.

More:

http://www.virgin.com/news/default.asp? ... =374&pst=- Getting more like the US every day. :-5
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Lon
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by Lon »

As an American here in New Zealand, I get a kick out of an article in the local press discussing what is reasonable force in protecting yourself and property from burglars. Current laws, like the U.K, appear to protect the burglar, and in fact, do nothing at all to discourage burglary.



Be he a teenager or adult. If I am awoken in the middle of the night and find some one in my bedroom that doesn't belong there, I would if I could, have no qualms in seriously injuring or even killing the intruder.
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capt_buzzard
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by capt_buzzard »

Hung drawn & quarterd I bet :driving:
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Pearl Harbor
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by Pearl Harbor »

Lon wrote: As an American here in New Zealand, I get a kick out of an article in the local press discussing what is reasonable force in protecting yourself and property from burglars. Current laws, like the U.K, appear to protect the burglar, and in fact, do nothing at all to discourage burglary.



Be he a teenager or adult. If I am awoken in the middle of the night and find some one in my bedroom that doesn't belong there, I would if I could, have no qualms in seriously injuring or even killing the intruder.
It sounds like burglars have no qualms about entering occupied homes in England. Only complete nut cases do this in the U.S.A. The public perception here is that if someone is in your home while you are there, then you expect the worst is going to happen to you. Use of deadly force is the first choice.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

I Live In London And If Anybody Tryed To Enter My Home I Would Not Hesitate To Pick Up And Use The First Thing That Came To Hand i Have A Dog Which Is A Great Deterrent And I Also Have A Cctv Camera On My Front Door And Over The Garden, I Belive 100%that I Have The Right To Protect My Home And My Family If And Intruder Breaks In .sarah Jane
Can go from 0 - to bitch in 3.0 seconds .:D







Smile people :yh_bigsmi







yep, this bitch bites back .;)
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by commie_kalafornian »

pantsonfire321@aol.com wrote: I Live In London And If Anybody Tryed To Enter My Home I Would Not Hesitate To Pick Up And Use The First Thing That Came To Hand i Have A Dog Which Is A Great Deterrent And I Also Have A Cctv Camera On My Front Door And Over The Garden, I Belive 100%that I Have The Right To Protect My Home And My Family If And Intruder Breaks In .sarah Jane


What you believe to be your right and what the wacko socialist have actually made illegal may be too different things. What you think to be your right may actually be illegal.

I can defeat a CCtv with a $3 pair of wire cutters and a ladder, a hammer and a ladder, or a can of spray paint and a ladder.

I can defeat a dog with 1lb of ground beef and sleeping pills.

I can defeat 'the first thing in my hand' with the 'first thing in my hand' too. Plus the thief will have the advantage with suprise, readiness, and possbily a second thief. Two intruders with 'first thing in hand' vs sleepy homeowner with 'first thing in hand'? Intruders have the superior advantage.
Bothwell
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by Bothwell »

As a UK householder you do have the right to use reasonable force to protect your family and your property. That's it plain and simple. The lawyers make good money arguing about what ir "reasonable"
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gmc
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by gmc »

Only a meagre 17 per cent of people have an alarm and only 37 per cent of people have window locks

• Only 4 per cent of people are a member of a Neighbourhood Watch scheme

• Only one in 10 people make changes to their home security after reading about other people being burgled despite the fact it makes them feel more vulnerable

• Women are more fearful about their security in the home with six in 10 worried about being broken into at night and eight in 10 feeling more vulnerable after reading about other people being burgled.


That's the really telling statistic, we are so worried nobody does anything about it.

In Scotland there are now calls to have the sale of air guns banned or at the very least over 18's only and licenced. We have many socialist msp's and even the odd wacko tory, (in Scotland voting Tory is almost a protest vote) none of them would dare not vote in favour of a ban like this.

We have a thing called a jury trial it's highly unlikely any jury would convict if you were acting in self defence. Shooting someone in the back now, that's frowned upon.

The law isn't weighted in favour of criminals but some of the sentences handed down begger belief, that's not the fault of the law it's the judge imposing the sentence.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by commie_kalafornian »

gmc wrote: That's the really telling statistic, we are so worried nobody does anything about it.

In Scotland there are now calls to have the sale of air guns banned or at the very least over 18's only and licenced. We have many socialist msp's and even the odd wacko tory, (in Scotland voting Tory is almost a protest vote) none of them would dare not vote in favour of a ban like this.

We have a thing called a jury trial it's highly unlikely any jury would convict if you were acting in self defence. Shooting someone in the back now, that's frowned upon.

The law isn't weighted in favour of criminals but some of the sentences handed down begger belief, that's not the fault of the law it's the judge imposing the sentence.


Sounds to me like a goverment run amok. Sounds to me a place turned upside down where a citizen has been castrated to the point where even thinking about taking action is an alien concept.
gmc
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by gmc »

posted by commie kalaforian

Sounds to me like a goverment run amok. Sounds to me a place turned upside down where a citizen has been castrated to the point where even thinking about taking action is an alien concept.


Sounds to me like you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by commie_kalafornian »

gmc wrote: posted by commie kalaforian



Sounds to me like you haven't a clue what you are talking about.


If people don't even consider taking actions to protect themselves, then isn't taking action an alien concept? If you can not even hold the concept of taking active measures to ensure your saftey or doing something pro-active, then isn't taking individual action to protect yourself is an alien concept?

Look at those stats. Very few people in the UK even consider doing anything about doing something to protect themselves. Even when alarmed about personal saftey the response is a 'do nothing' plan. Isn't that what the stats are telling you? That is what they are telling me.

This is a very important concept to understand. The concept of 'do nothing' is what is really considered a proper action. Isn't that about right? Is that what the stats are telling you? That is what they are telling me. If a 'do nothing' approach is what is to be done, then self-defense really is an alien concept.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by spot »

What Bothwell says, exactly.

I don't quite see what the fuss is about. There is no limit in England to the level of violence or mayhem that a householder is constrained to avoid, so long as what he uses is no more than the circumstances demand. We had, famously, a householder jailed for setting up a trap in his much-burgled farmhouse, designed to impede the exit of any burglar, and of then premeditatedly shooting both while they were attempting to escape, killing one. That was an inappropriate use of violence. On the other hand, I could hypothetically end up with a dozen dismembered corpses in my house and not be convicted for any crime if my act was based reasonably on the events I was reacting to. I'm sure that it would be put to a jury to decide. That's why we have trials.
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Lionrampant
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by Lionrampant »

This thread is under "Gun Control" and as such, their is no case for shooting someone illegally entering your house.

You have the right to protect yourself and that is it.

The UK has one of the best gun control societies in the world, and it should ban air rifles too.........
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by commie_kalafornian »

Lionrampant wrote: This thread is under "Gun Control" and as such, their is no case for shooting someone illegally entering your house.

You have the right to protect yourself and that is it.

The UK has one of the best gun control societies in the world, and it should ban air rifles too.........


"On a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and that, apart from murder, "theirs is worse than ours." " - http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

Are you quite sure the gun laws are making the streets safer?

Stop and think for a minute? Imagine this? Try to think about this? What kind of criminal would break into a house and not worry weather or not the owner is home? Is that a bold criminal? Is that a fearless criminal? Why would this criminal take such a bold and agressive act? Would they fear killing you? Why not? You saw them? You can ID them. Why not just kill you and remove the witness? Would they do that? Are they bold enough to do that? What the heck, they don't care your home right? Nothing is off limits to them. Maybe they don't want your things. Maybe they want YOU.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by abbey »

commie_kalafornian wrote: "On a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and that, apart from murder, "theirs is worse than ours." " - http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml



Are you quite sure the gun laws are making the streets safer?



Stop and think for a minute? Imagine this? Try to think about this? What kind of criminal would break into a house and not worry weather or not the owner is home? Is that a bold criminal? Is that a fearless criminal? Why would this criminal take such a bold and agressive act? Would they fear killing you? Why not? You saw them? You can ID them. Why not just kill you and remove the witness? Would they do that? Are they bold enough to do that? What the heck, they don't care your home right? Nothing is off limits to them. Maybe they don't want your things. Maybe they want YOU.You certainly know how to make a girl who's just on her way to bed,

feel safe..NOT! :-3

Way to go Commie!
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by spot »

commie_kalafornian wrote: Stop and think for a minute? Imagine this? Try to think about this? What kind of criminal would break into a house and not worry weather or not the owner is home? Is that a bold criminal? Is that a fearless criminal? Why would this criminal take such a bold and agressive act? Would they fear killing you? Why not? You saw them? You can ID them. Why not just kill you and remove the witness? Would they do that? Are they bold enough to do that? What the heck, they don't care your home right? Nothing is off limits to them. Maybe they don't want your things. Maybe they want YOU.You have so little idea or experience of what you're talking about that it's embarrassing to watch.

Let me testify to the conditions you're trying to describe. I don't live in the countryside, I live about a mile from the city center. I've been here fifteen years. The only time my back door is ever locked is when we go on holiday. I know it's unlocked, my family knows it's unlocked, all my children's schoolfriends know it's unlocked, they and my neighbors come into the kitchen now and then if nobody's here and they have a reason to. I haven't ever been burgled. Nobody has walked in while we're all asleep and carried us off. We feel safe because it is our experience that we are safe. Further afield, there isn't a street in the whole city that either I or any of my children would feel the least hesitation in walking along at any time of the day or night.

Now, if you'd like to square your propaganda with my honest personal testimony, go for it.
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commie_kalafornian
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by commie_kalafornian »

spot wrote: You have so little idea or experience of what you're talking about that it's embarrassing to watch.

Let me testify to the conditions you're trying to describe. I don't live in the countryside, I live about a mile from the city center. I've been here fifteen years. The only time my back door is ever locked is when we go on holiday. I know it's unlocked, my family knows it's unlocked, all my children's schoolfriends know it's unlocked, they and my neighbors come into the kitchen now and then if nobody's here and they have a reason to. I haven't ever been burgled. Nobody has walked in while we're all asleep and carried us off. We feel safe because it is our experience that we are safe. Further afield, there isn't a street in the whole city that either I or any of my children would feel the least hesitation in walking along at any time of the day or night.

Now, if you'd like to square your propaganda with my honest personal testimony, go for it.


It is dark and your in your bedroom? Do you see the boogie man in the dark? Of course not, he does not exist, but how do you know? Your vision does not work in the dark bedroom, but what if you have infrared night vision? Then can you confirm for sure there is no boogie man in your bedroom?

Well look at those statistics again. Just because your perception says YOU are safe does not mean your experience would make good public policy. As a matter of fact that statistic says YOU are not an average statistical sample. You got lucky to live in a safe place to be able to feel safe. The crime is everywhere in your country, you just got the dumb luck to not have the NORMAL experience everyone else has in your country. Look at those stats again:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only a meagre 17 per cent of people have an alarm and only 37 per cent of people have window locks

• Only 4 per cent of people are a member of a Neighbourhood Watch scheme

• Only one in 10 people make changes to their home security after reading about other people being burgled despite the fact it makes them feel more vulnerable

• Women are more fearful about their security in the home with six in 10 worried about being broken into at night and eight in 10 feeling more vulnerable after reading about other people being burgled.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point? This is very crucial point you seem to be missing. It is even when these people feel a threat, thier action is 'to do nothing'. This is a fundamental concept I am trying to pass to you. It is not weather or not gun ownership is good (I'll save it for later), it is the mental state of a person to feel danger and to 'do nothing'. Is that what the stats tell you? Look again. That is what those stats tell me. Do you agree?

Like the boogie man. Your perception is one thing, but the reality of crime in your country and the response of people is another. Look at those stats again. It is very clear, when threatened with potential crime, people in the UK adopt a 'do nothing strategy'.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by gmc »

posted by kommie californian

If people don't even consider taking actions to protect themselves, then isn't taking action an alien concept? If you can not even hold the concept of taking active measures to ensure your saftey or doing something pro-active, then isn't taking individual action to protect yourself is an alien concept?

Look at those stats. Very few people in the UK even consider doing anything about doing something to protect themselves. Even when alarmed about personal saftey the response is a 'do nothing' plan. Isn't that what the stats are telling you? That is what they are telling me.

This is a very important concept to understand. The concept of 'do nothing' is what is really considered a proper action. Isn't that about right? Is that what the stats are telling you? That is what they are telling me. If a 'do nothing' approach is what is to be done, then self-defense really is an alien concept.


You miss the point, people don't bother about burglar alarms, neighbourhood watches etc because despite surveys to the contrary they don't feel threatened, If asked are you worried about burglars most people will answer yes, do they feel threatened enough to think a burglar alarm is worth it? no

If you do a survey and ask women if they fear being attacked most of them will say yes, ask them if they think it likely and you get a different answer.

The study, which looks into attitudes on home security, also found that nine in 10 (92%) people would, like Ozzy Osborne, be prepared to physically defend their home against intruders and burglars. And a worrying one in six go as far as keeping a weapon close to their bed at night in case of intruders.


92% would take action, really sounds like we are all terrified and would do nothing doesn't it?

It's selective reporting- a rise form 1 in 1000 to 2 in a 1000 gets reported as a 100% rise in the crime rate and latched on to by starnge american commentators seeking reassurance that the US is not as bad as they think.

Yes we have a gun crime problem, with grug gangs in particular, the way to deal with a small bunch of thugs is not to start arming everybody but throw the buggers in jail. We have a problem with knife crime that is why there are calls for stiffer sentences for those carrying offensive weapons and restricting the sale of knives that have no use on cooking but are offensive weapons. NB: the attitude for most people is why do the little &^%&*(* want knives take them off them. It's not I'll go out and get one myself just in case I am attacked.

The ban on the sale of hand guns was the result of politicians reacting to public demand, not them imposing a ban against our will. Post Dunblane during a local by election, the idiot standing as a pro gun candidate had to be rescued by police to stop him having the crap beaten out of him.

The proposed ban on air guns in Scotland is because of public demand not politicians deciding to disarm everbody and take away their right to shoot sparrows. It is a public sentiment that it would take a very brave politician, and soon to be unelected one, to ignore. The attitiude is not get a weapon to defend yourself it's more of let's take them off the sick little &^%^*S that want to have them.

In a UK context you would come across as a paranoid nutter.
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Post by spot »

commie_kalafornian wrote: My point? This is very crucial point you seem to be missing. It is even when these people feel a threat, thier action is 'to do nothing'. This is a fundamental concept I am trying to pass to you. It is not weather or not gun ownership is good (I'll save it for later), it is the mental state of a person to feel danger and to 'do nothing'. Is that what the stats tell you? Look again. That is what those stats tell me. Do you agree?

Like the boogie man. Your perception is one thing, but the reality of crime in your country and the response of people is another. Look at those stats again. It is very clear, when threatened with potential crime, people in the UK adopt a 'do nothing strategy'.The perception of the threat of crime far exceeds the actual threat of crime. I am not abnormal in my reaction to the threat of crime. I do not live in a particularly safe area - I made that clear, I live a mile from a city center. What those stats tell me is that people react to questionnaires by giving the expected answers, and in their real life that have a lot more sense than you seem to give them credit for. People react to their circumstances. If they need alarms, they get alarmed. If they need window locks, they fit window locks. If they're asked leading questions about their degree of worry, they politely say "oh yes, dear, it's wicked isn't it, I don't know how I sleep at night". The mental state of a person who feels danger is to protect against it. I would maintain that the degree of protection implemented in your quoted figures is a fair reflection of the extent to which people actually feel fear of crime in England. The answers to questionnaires are determined by the questions that are asked, the terms in which they are expressed and the order in which they are put. Questionnaires are manipulative. To say people in the UK adopt a 'do nothing strategy' to crime is blatantly false, even the figures you show give your statement the lie.
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Bothwell
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by Bothwell »

I think our Brit laid back attitude is getting misinterpreted here. KC dont for one minute think that a Brit householder would hesitate to defend his/her property any more than an American one, OK the option of a firearm may be limited but the defence would surely take place.

I have no idea how we got to the stage where people think the UK is in total anarchy, I have actually seen this on some other US websites too. This is a safe country, I have absolutely no fear of crime.

What seems to be being suggested is that we are proactive, which would result in all sorts of innocent parties being affected because their actions were thought to be threatening. So we let every householder have a gun and they can just blast away at anyone they THINK is causing them harm?

I honestly believe that our huge "RISE" in crime is down to several factors not the least of them being our dearly beloved tabloids, they like nothing better than a "pensioner mugged by teenage yob story" and yes that happens and it is awful that it does but I say being proactive is not letting the fear of crime dictate your behaviour.
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commie_kalafornian
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by commie_kalafornian »

gmc wrote: posted by kommie californian



You miss the point, people don't bother about burglar alarms, neighbourhood watches etc because despite surveys to the contrary they don't feel threatened




Again I ask you to read the post:

_______________________________________________________

According to the survey, the fear of crime is high for Brits, with half of all homeowners worrying about their home being broken into. But, despite three quarters of people saying that hearing stories of other people being burgled makes them feel more vulnerable, one in six people still do nothing to improve current security systems.

When it comes to home security measures, The Virgin Money study found:

• Only a meagre 17 per cent of people have an alarm and only 37 per cent of people have window locks

• Only 4 per cent of people are a member of a Neighbourhood Watch scheme

• Only one in 10 people make changes to their home security after reading about other people being burgled despite the fact it makes them feel more vulnerable

• Women are more fearful about their security in the home with six in 10 worried about being broken into at night and eight in 10 feeling more vulnerable after reading about other people being burgled.

_____________________________________________________

Yes people are threated. You said they are not. The post clearly says something else. Then the action people take is 'do nothing'. Unless you have a different souce or statistic your are wrong. People in the UK feel a potential threat to thier property and body and do nothing.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by Lionrampant »

It was in the US that a British person was shot dead, and he was knocking on a door to get directions. I have to say that the security issue is biased by the media.

I think bringing weapons into the house will cause more innocent deaths than anything else....

"I was cleaning my gun and forgot it was loaded, It went off and my wife fell to the floor"

"I was kidding with my kid brother, I never meant to kill him"

"I seen the intruder in my living room, I was scared so I shot him. How was I to know he was an old confused man who thought he was home"

"My husband got violent, I was scared. I used the gun in self defence"

"I was enraged with anger when I saw my wife in bed with my best pal, the gun was for security, I used it and killed em both"

Enough said I think............
gmc
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by gmc »

posted by commie kalifornian

Again I ask you to read the post:


I have read it I suggest you do so. if people perceieved the threat as real they would do somethimg about it. They don't because they are not worried not because they are apathetic or cowed. 92% said they would take action if someone is in their houses. Most don't think burglar alarms are worth the bother. Only 1 in 10 make some changes despite reading about other people being burgled rather suggests they are not particularly comcerned. If you ask people if they are worried about being burgled most will say yes. Try asking them how likely they think they will be. It tends to be only certain areas that it is endemic.

The tabloids hype it up as a good story most people aren't that bothered because very few are affected by it. Keep reading the post all you like all you are doing is reading in to it what you want to

In the past 15 years only 11 householders have been prosecuted for taking action against a burglar of those only 5 have been convicted of using excessive force. By a jury, all the judges do is pass sentence. The odds of a jury sending someone to prison for acting in self defence are pretty remote. It may be a disappointment to you but we don't all live in fear of crime. Most burglaries take place when the houses are empty why do you think that is?

While on the subject I never want to see thhe police being armed in the normal course of their duties either.

There have been one or two such posting on this forum I suggest you have a read of them especially what the british contingent are saying.
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Brits Demand The Right To Defend Home Against Burglars

Post by spot »

Far Rider wrote: If I lived in an area that I was really threatend in I'd not go the alarm route anyway, an alarm does nothing to keep people out it meraly alerts you to an entry.

I'd bar my windows and doors. Then I'd be safe inside, unitl I could call for help.

Find a neighborhood with bars on the windows and doors and ask your questions there, I'd bet you get different stats.Well of course you would, Far Rider, they have bars on the windows and doors because there are more burglaries. They've reacted to an increased threat. If the threat to my house were increased, I'd change my procedures. Both the barred areas and my area are a part of the UK. The stats under discussion are averaged.
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Post by spot »

Far Rider wrote: Oh I was not disagreeing with math you good folks are throwing out, just stating that to me they asked the wrong group of folks.I have no idea which group of folks they asked. It may have been the bunch with the bars and window bolts, I can't tell looking at the bare numbers. All I know is that they never asked me!
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Post by commie_kalafornian »

Lionrampant wrote: It was in the US that a British person was shot dead, and he was knocking on a door to get directions. I have to say that the security issue is biased by the media.

I think bringing weapons into the house will cause more innocent deaths than anything else....

"I was cleaning my gun and forgot it was loaded, It went off and my wife fell to the floor"

"I was kidding with my kid brother, I never meant to kill him"

"I seen the intruder in my living room, I was scared so I shot him. How was I to know he was an old confused man who thought he was home"

"My husband got violent, I was scared. I used the gun in self defence"

"I was enraged with anger when I saw my wife in bed with my best pal, the gun was for security, I used it and killed em both"

Enough said I think............


'I think' is not the same as 'I can prove'.

'I think' is based on prejudice and perceptions.

'I can prove' is reality.
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Post by commie_kalafornian »

gmc wrote: posted by commie kalifornian



I have read it I suggest you do so. if people perceieved the threat as real they would do somethimg about it. They don't because they are not worried not because they are apathetic or cowed. 92% said they would take action if someone is in their houses. Most don't think burglar alarms are worth the bother. Only 1 in 10 make some changes despite reading about other people being burgled rather suggests they are not particularly comcerned. If you ask people if they are worried about being burgled most will say yes. Try asking them how likely they think they will be. It tends to be only certain areas that it is endemic.

The tabloids hype it up as a good story most people aren't that bothered because very few are affected by it. Keep reading the post all you like all you are doing is reading in to it what you want to

In the past 15 years only 11 householders have been prosecuted for taking action against a burglar of those only 5 have been convicted of using excessive force. By a jury, all the judges do is pass sentence. The odds of a jury sending someone to prison for acting in self defence are pretty remote. It may be a disappointment to you but we don't all live in fear of crime. Most burglaries take place when the houses are empty why do you think that is?

While on the subject I never want to see thhe police being armed in the normal course of their duties either.

There have been one or two such posting on this forum I suggest you have a read of them especially what the british contingent are saying.


Thank you. I you just made my point. People in the UK have been cowed or are apathetic. No your wrong. The text is very clear. They are worried yet cowed and apathetic. Plus you made my point again. The options lets to them to defend body and property are 'not worth it'. Why are they not 'worth it'. I suscribe to you the options left are 'not worth it' because they are USELESS. That is right the options left are USLESS.
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Post by abbey »

spot wrote: I have no idea which group of folks they asked. It may have been the bunch with the bars and window bolts, I can't tell looking at the bare numbers. All I know is that they never asked me!I was'nt asked!

I dont want a gun in my house,

i'd live more in fear of the gun than a burgler!
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Post by spot »

commie_kalafornian wrote: 'I think' is not the same as 'I can prove'.

'I think' is based on prejudice and perceptions.

'I can prove' is reality.Fortunately there is not the slightest chance that any of us will ever find out, then. The civilian right to bear arms in the United Kingdom is a dead issue. We have dinosaur bones in the Natural History Museum that are less dead. 'I can prove' is so far from being testable that even I am not bothered to find you here ranting about it. You have about as much influence in this as a single french letter at a three-day rock festival.
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Post by gmc »

posted by kommie kalifiornian

Thank you. I you just made my point. People in the UK have been cowed or are apathetic. No your wrong. The text is very clear. They are worried yet cowed and apathetic. Plus you made my point again. The options lets to them to defend body and property are 'not worth it'. Why are they not 'worth it'. I suscribe to you the options left are 'not worth it' because they are USELESS. That is right the options left are USLESS.


Oh cobblers, never let the facts get in the way of a good opinion. Believe what you want it's clearly a waste of time talking to you.
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Post by Jives »

capt_buzzard wrote: Getting more like the US every day. :-5


No...not actually. You guys don't get to shoot the burglars yet.
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Post by abbey »

spot wrote: Fortunately there is not the slightest chance that any of us will ever find out, then. The civilian right to bear arms in the United Kingdom is a dead issue. We have dinosaur bones in the Natural History Museum that are less dead. 'I can prove' is so far from being testable that even I am not bothered to find you here ranting about it. You have about as much influence in this as a single french letter at a three-day rock festival.:wah: :wah: Good one Spot.
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Post by commie_kalafornian »

gmc wrote: posted by kommie kalifiornian



Oh cobblers, never let the facts get in the way of a good opinion. Believe what you want it's clearly a waste of time talking to you.


Did I missing something? Did I misrepresent something. The text is very clear buty you choose not to believe it.

Clearly:

1) UK sample felt a possible threat of crime to property or body.

2) The standard action and pre-planning is to do nothing.



Did I misrepresent the text? The others have misrepresented the text. With "oh if they REALLY felt danger they would have done somthing about it". No. The text is very clear. They really did feeel a threat and did nothing to prepare.
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Post by gmc »

posted by kommie kalifornian

Did I misrepresent the text? The others have misrepresented the text. With "oh if they REALLY felt danger they would have done somthing about it". No. The text is very clear. They really did feeel a threat and did nothing to prepare.


It's a non sequiter. You choose to believe people take no action because everybody is cowed and apathetic because that's what you want to believe as it tallies with your daft perceptions. The fact that every UK poster is telling you that is not the case you and people do nothing because in reality very few are that bothered you choose to ignore. You're entitled to your opinion even if it is daft.
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Post by commie_kalafornian »

gmc wrote: posted by kommie kalifornian



It's a non sequiter. You choose to believe people take no action because everybody is cowed and apathetic because that's what you want to believe as it tallies with your daft perceptions. The fact that every UK poster is telling you that is not the case you and people do nothing because in reality very few are that bothered you choose to ignore. You're entitled to your opinion even if it is daft.


Hey I don't believe anything. That is what the text says.

_____________________________________________________

According to the survey, the fear of crime is high for Brits, with half of all homeowners worrying about their home being broken into. But, despite three quarters of people saying that hearing stories of other people being burgled makes them feel more vulnerable, one in six people still do nothing to improve current security systems.

______________________________________________________

Again did I misrepresent it? Did I make something out of it that was not there before? Why do so many of YOU keep overlaying your own prejudice over what the article is trying to tell you. Now I don't really understand how you get from that text to be able to say that people do not feel risk and people are doing something to reduce the risk. It is very clear, people feel risk and do nothing. Is that unclear? So I don't believe or think people are cowed. I can PROVE people are cowed.

Which is a very important concept I'm trying to pass along here. It is very central to my philosophy and politics of gun ownership and democracy.
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Post by spot »

commie_kalafornian wrote: It is very central to my philosophy and politics of gun ownership and democracy.Take it away, sir. You're one of the few write-only posters here who won't read another's view and modify their message accordingly. However many times people with knowledge and experience tell you the facts on the ground, you don't open your mind to what they can bring to the discussion. You have a single point of view and you want us to hear that and nothing else. It's a simple enough thing to do - open a new topic, title it appropriately, and post the message. Job done. You don't want feedback, and you've had your say. Stop going round in meaningless circles.
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Post by anastrophe »

spot wrote: Take it away, sir. You're one of the few write-only posters here who won't read another's view and modify their message accordingly. However many times people with knowledge and experience tell you the facts on the ground, you don't open your mind to what they can bring to the discussion. You have a single point of view and you want us to hear that and nothing else. It's a simple enough thing to do - open a new topic, title it appropriately, and post the message. Job done. You don't want feedback, and you've had your say. Stop going round in meaningless circles.
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Post by spot »

anastrophe wrote: pot, meet kettle. kettle, pot. you're both black, by the way.Au contraire, mon brave, I read assiduously and often modify my view. Write-only posting is not my style at all. While I own to a pronounced dislike of engaging uncivil site owners in fruitless disputation over matters that have set like concrete in their heads years since, I maintain a lively interest in reaching any legitimate consensus that's available with those who will actually think. It has, indeed, happened on this very Forum, in full sight of all. They don't call me Spot the Blameless for nothing.

May I say how pleased I am to see you returned among us?

/Spot replaces Spot on the appropriate ignore list, and turns to more fruitful areas of discourse/
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Post by commie_kalafornian »

spot wrote: Take it away, sir. You're one of the few write-only posters here who won't read another's view and modify their message accordingly. However many times people with knowledge and experience tell you the facts on the ground, you don't open your mind to what they can bring to the discussion. You have a single point of view and you want us to hear that and nothing else. It's a simple enough thing to do - open a new topic, title it appropriately, and post the message. Job done. You don't want feedback, and you've had your say. Stop going round in meaningless circles.


A prejudiced world view. I have seen police video of people doing criminal acts on VIDEO then with 100% confidence and and belief, deny they did it? Why? The "I could never do that" excuse. They don't think they are lying, they really don't think they did it. Why? It is a well known mental process that a person can do and hold conflicting beliefs even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence. Bias and prejudice dies hard. Why is this important?

There is a lot of bias and prejudice right here. Look at that post. See how people here have put thier own bias and prejudice into the text. The text is very clear. Yet people here have put forth "they don't really feel threatened". The text is very clear, they do.

I got news for you. It does not really matter at all weather this article is right or wrong. It is the prejudice that people overlay thier political views on that article to get what they want out of it.

Now the important part. With these dark age intellecutals, how do you convince them they are wrong? I could really careless about gun control in the UK. What I want to know is how to convince anti-gunners in the USA they are wrong.
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Post by abbey »

Pardon me if i'm wrong, but i dont think there are any

"Anti gunners" from the USA on this forum.

Why dont you go to the shooting range & get it out of your system!

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Post by commie_kalafornian »

abbey wrote: Pardon me if i'm wrong, but i dont think there are any

"Anti gunners" from the USA on this forum.

Why dont you go to the shooting range & get it out of your system!




Thank you but I did take you up on that today. Do you know what happened?

I didn't kill anyone.

I didn't rob anyone.

I didn't rape anyone.

I didn't even hurt a fly or even THINK of hurting anyone.

I sent out several hundred rounds and had a good time and not once imagine killing a person.
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Post by abbey »

commie_kalafornian wrote: Thank you but I did take you up on that today. Do you know what happened?



I didn't kill anyone.

I didn't rob anyone.

I didn't rape anyone.

I didn't even hurt a fly or even THINK of hurting anyone.

I sent out several hundred rounds and had a good time and not once imagine killing a person.Commie, if you bothered to read the posts on this forum you would know that the people of your country agree with you!

No arguments from them, no-one's accusing anyone of having murderous thoughts because they own a gun.

I live in Britain, dont own a gun, dont want to own a gun, have no interest whatsoever in guns, but dont feel any animosity towards you for your preference.

Peace.

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Post by gmc »

posted by kommie kalifornian

According to the survey, the fear of crime is high for Brits, with half of all homeowners worrying about their home being broken into. But, despite three quarters of people saying that hearing stories of other people being burgled makes them feel more vulnerable, one in six people still do nothing to improve current security systems.


People have a high fear of crime.

people do nothing to protect themselves.

You choose to take this as meaning prople are apathetic.

All the British posters say no, it means the fear of crime is not perceveived as being that likely a prospect and what people say in answer to the question "do you fear your house being broken in to" is completely different to the answer they would give if asked do you think it very likely.

posted by kommie kalifornian

I got news for you. It does not really matter at all weather this article is right or wrong. It is the prejudice that people overlay thier political views on that article to get what they want out of it.

Now the important part. With these dark age intellecutals, how do you convince them they are wrong? I could really careless about gun control in the UK. What I want to know is how to convince anti-gunners in the USA they are wrong.


Stop wasting your time trying to use the UK as an example sort out your own problems. We have very different atitudes towards the issue. Try and imagine walking down a street and knowing that none of the people you walk past have a gun.

Why not try compare yourselves with switzerland where you have to have a weapon by law and yet gun crime is negligible. Why are americans so terrified of their fellow countrymen to the extent they feel the need to carry guns? Paranoia or an insanely violent culture?
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Post by chervil »

Even if we accept the arguement that guns do not cause, create or contribute to crime. They do not prevent or reduce it either if they did you'd be living in a crime free paradise. My husband owns a shotgun and goes shooting regularly so I am not anti gun. I just do not see that they contribute anything to society beyond the sporting aspects.

The survey is not reliable as a stand alone point of reference when it does not say how large the polled group was and the demographic of the population surveyed. Elderly and people living in run down housing estates have a higher fear due to social issues and are not usually in a position financially to respond to that increased fear with increased security.

You clearly feel passionately about the subject but you leave no middle ground, people are either for your argument or they are 'anti gunners' I am neither, I am not anti gun but I do not advocate their use beyond sport and would feel very uneasy if I lived in a country that sanctioned their use for self defence.
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Post by orangesox1 »

I would also feel very uneasy with a gun in the house, also not allowed in OZ so how do I defend my self and my teenagers as a sole parent. I sleep with my chainsaw in the bedroom, it is the only weapon that cannot be taken off me, I have starting it down to a fine art, prime it three times and pull. If I can't get to my chainsaw I also have a secret place to hide that has a quarter of a jar of petrol and box of matches, you can throw the match out after the petrol. The only reason an intruder would be attacked by me was if he was actually coming at me. It sounds like I must be a really weird person but I'm not, I am responsible for the protection of my children and a small person that couldn't fight of any attaker.

I never expect to have to use either of my weapons, I feel very safe in my home and rarley lock any doors, if I had a gun I might hesitate or miss and he would have the oppertunity to take it from me, nobody can take my chainsaw of me. ;) I think they would run.
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

I think we do have to accept that gun crime is on the increase here in the UK and for most of us it will never touch our lives. but just the other day my friends son was pistle whiped ( hes a bit of a bad boy) but what shocked me even more was his mothers attitude she thought it was funny- they didnt report it and apparently guns are an every day occurance on one particular london street - i dont know about anybody else but i found that really worrying.
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Post by Accountable »

orangesox1 wrote: [...]I never expect to have to use either of my weapons, I feel very safe in my home and rarley lock any doors, if I had a gun I might hesitate or miss and he would have the oppertunity to take it from me, nobody can take my chainsaw of me. ;) I think they would run.
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