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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

pantsonfire321@aol.com;523124 wrote: If i considered what she said was made as a real threat then of course my opinion would be different . My guess is she and Patsy were joking no i see no reason to get your knickers in a twist .


Thats the point pants. Its not a joke, its not funny. People should be held accountable. That doesnt mean Im out to get her. Big difference.
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Post by koan »

jesse b;523123 wrote: to save someone life or to save my loved ones would not have a prob would use what ever was needed

if i had a gun when witnessed the murder of my brother there would have been 5dead murders and living brother

only god can judge me on this

sam i love ya miss ya be together again bro one day


jesse, this is exactly what I am talking about.

please take this with the best of intentions, I know this is a sensitive issue for you.

I think you would shoot that gun because you are hurt, angry and full of grief. I think that if you found yourself face to face with them, even though your brother is gone, you would pull the trigger even though it won't bring him back. That's why I hate guns. They turn people into something they don't want to be.
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Post by Nomad »

And for the record Ive had a gun pointed in my face twice. Its no joke.
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Post by koan »

I couldn't go to someone's home if they kept a gun in it. Outside of an obvious collector who has them in proper locked display cases. Even then I'd have trouble keeping myself from making a comment of distaste.

They'd be welcome to visit my home but I couldn't visit them comfortably.

eta: God help the person who brings a gun into my home unless they are an on duty police officer. They'd find themselves on the doorstep in seconds.
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Post by koan »

jesse b;523146 wrote: i agree and disagee i do not know you if i saw you in the street about to be raped or killed i could not would not stand there and let it happen

and if i had a gun and shot the person dead i would feel pain at what i had been made to do

and i think you would thank me for it

but in the eyes of the law i would be innoscent and in the eyes of god

that between me and him


That's where you are wrong.

I would be traumatised more by knowing someone was killed on my behalf than I would be by the rape.
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Post by Nomad »

The feeling of holding and firing a weapon that can cause such destruction and change lives in an instant is an awesome one. There is a 9mm in this house but its disassembled at the moment and I feel safer that it is.
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Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

jesse b;523146 wrote: i agree and disagee i do not know you if i saw you in the street about to be raped or killed i could not would not stand there and let it happen

and if i had a gun and shot the person dead i would feel pain at what i had been made to do

and i think you would thank me for it

but in the eyes of the law i would be innoscent and in the eyes of godthat between me and him


Of course if you witnessed somebody being Raped i don't think many people would judge you if you then went on to shoot the guy. But, the fact that you where carrying a weapon would make the crime premeditated . I doubt you'd be seen as innocent then .
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Post by koan »

AngelEyes82;523155 wrote: Look when I was 15 years old I was raped in an alley walking to a friends house. If I had a gun it never would have happened because that SOB would've been dead. The year I moved here was the year he got out of prison. He was in for rape and assult. What made matters worse was I thought he was a friend. Again I will shoot someone in defense of myself or some other loved one. I still get flashbacks when Tim tries to wrestle and play rough so I'd say I am more tramatized by the rape then I would have been If i had killed the SOB.


It's impossible to know.

Again, I think it is the anger, hurt and grief that makes you willing to consider it. If that is what guns bring out in people then I want them well away from me. There are better ways to heal.
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Post by koan »

I try not to do things just because they are legal.

And I'm not convinced that you are correct about UK law, jesse.
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Post by spot »

jesse b;523159 wrote: in uk law if you are in fear of your life or some one elses life you can have a illegal weapon and use it and be innocent Jesse, you can't just claim that to be true when it so clearly isn't. If you have even a single example of it ever having happened then fine, you're right, but I don't know of one.
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Post by weeder »

My very mild mannered son, who was always very anti guns ( having been reared by me) was convinced by my macho police officer brother in law, to get a gun. The premise was that the neighborhood has had minor incidences of crime, and so the gun was needed to perhaps protect my daughter in law and my grandaughter. I was strongly opposed to my sons having the gun. I am very angry that my brother in law " helped" him get one. My daughter in law has displayed behavior at times, that would be labeled emmotionally unstable. She is often irrationally jealous, and there has been some marital discord between them this past year. Try as I do, I cannott stop imagining her mistaking her husband for an intruder, or irrationally losing her temper and firing that gun. You get the rest of the scenario. There have been so many people who have looked back on gun related deaths that wished a gun hadnt been available to use. Guns are ugly, cold, instruments of death. I have no problem with hand to hand combat. During the heat of a fight, the participants have a chance to think as they see blood, or hear bones break, or look into their opponents eyes and see remorse or submission. There is time to stop before death occurs. Not so with the quick immediate, path of a bullett hitting its target.
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Post by spot »

jesse b;523164 wrote: tony martin held no license for the gun he used to shot two burglers

he was not found guilty of murder uk law exampleThat's the same chap as "Anthony Edward Martin (born 1944) is a farmer in Norfolk, England who was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison, but his conviction was reduced to manslaughter on appeal"?On April 10 2000 Martin was charged with the murder of Barras, the attempted murder of Fearon, wounding with intent to cause injury to Fearon, and possessing a firearm with intent to endanger life.

The jury at the trial were told that they had the option of returning a verdict of manslaughter if they thought that Martin "did not intend to kill or cause serious bodily harm". However, they found Martin guilty of murder by a 10 to 2 majority. He was sentenced to life in prison, the mandatory sentence for murder. The case had attracted considerable media interest and the life sentence shocked many.

An appeal was lodged and was considered by three senior judges headed by Lord Lane.

Submissions by the defence that Martin had fired in self defence were rejected by the appeal court. However, on this occasion the defence submitted evidence that Martin suffered paranoid personality disorder specifically directed at anyone intruding into his home; this submission was accepted by the Court of Appeal and, on the grounds of diminished responsibility, Martin's murder conviction was replaced with manslaughter carrying a five year sentence, and his ten year sentence for wounding Fearon cut to three years. Both sentences were to run concurrently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_%28farmer%29

You seem to have dropped back from "be innocent" to "not found guilty of murder", I notice.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by weeder »

AngelEyes82;523155 wrote: Look when I was 15 years old I was raped in an alley walking to a friends house. If I had a gun it never would have happened because that SOB would've been dead. The year I moved here was the year he got out of prison. He was in for rape and assult. What made matters worse was I thought he was a friend. Again I will shoot someone in defense of myself or some other loved one. I still get flashbacks when Tim tries to wrestle and play rough so I'd say I am more tramatized by the rape then I would have been If i had killed the SOB.


Angel Eyes... That is one of the most horrible traumas a person could ever go through in life. I dont know if I could recover. But because I believe in fate.. I have to recognize that had you had a gun.. the rapist could have taken it away from you, and killed you. I am unable to see a gun ever as a solution. I always see it as a man made device that has the potential to back fire, and mistakenly take the wrong life. I would that I could go back and not have you suffer. But I am glad you survived.
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Post by spot »

jesse b;523177 wrote: he still in the end found not guilty of murder and was mansluaghter becouse he shot both in the back not self defence they were running away

his record show he was not guilty of murderThat scarcely qualifies as "be innocent" now, does it.
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Post by koan »

and the defense that reduced the charges was mental instability.
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Post by Nomad »

That should send then scurrying and googling like mad crazed people jess :wah:
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Post by shrike »

Happily no handgun fired in the US can kill me as I sit in front of my mind-numbing TV here in a quiet village in Oxfordshire, England.

Having said that I'd like to have a gun. Just in case some crazed American bursts into my home to 'take me out' for having 'dissed' a fool.

At least then it'd be a fifty-fifty contest.

I'm not afraid to die if the duel's honest.



Regards,

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Post by spot »

jesse b;523186 wrote: if you feel that your life is under threat or others life is under threat

you can use reasonable force as defence for murderObviously you can. What I'm calling nonsense is the "you can have a illegal weapon and use it and be innocent" bit. Using reasonable force, if you can demonstrate it was reasonable, is a perfectly good defence even if you've killed someone. But "in uk law if you are in fear of your life or some one elses life you can have a illegal weapon and use it and be innocent" is just plain wrong, whether you deliberately tooled up with it or just had it to hand in the first place.
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Post by koan »

Nomad;523195 wrote: That should send then scurrying and googling like mad crazed people jess :wah:


not me.

I made my point that a person shouldn't do something just because it's legal.

I'm interested in what the UK law actually is on the matter though. The bit he posted doesn't specifically say that guns are ever considered reasonable force. And it certainly didn't mention illegal firearms being acceptable. I don't quite care enough to go googling.

The point has been and remains, is it worth becoming a killer? Do guns turn angry people into unintentional killers?

eta: or intentional killers for that matter.
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Post by weeder »

That makes me feel so bad. Most Americans arent crazed. But there are places, I must admit where we walk around with our eyes lowered to the ground to avoid confrontation.
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Post by koan »

weeder;523202 wrote: That makes me feel so bad. Most Americans arent crazed. But there are places, I must admit where we walk around with our eyes lowered to the ground to avoid confrontation.


This thread helps prove that there are Americans who oppose guns.
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Post by cars »

[quote=weeder;523202]That makes me feel so bad. Most Americans arent crazed. But there are places, I must admit where we walk around with our eyes lowered to the ground to avoid confrontation.[/quote]



Not only in America weed, not only in America!
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Post by koan »

jesse b;523206 wrote: if i think that you are going to shot me with an illegal gun and i use an illegal gun to stop you no jury in the land will or can convict me of muder self defence reasonable force same force as attack

sorry mate your it


this is so not about whether or not you would go to jail.

this is about how killing a human being could change you for the rest of your life.

there is no going back. you can't undo it.
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Post by Nomad »

shrike;523197 wrote: Happily no handgun fired in the US can kill me as I sit in front of my mind-numbing TV here in a quiet village in Oxfordshire, England.



Having said that I'd like to have a gun. Just in case some crazed American bursts into my home to 'take me out' for having 'dissed' a fool.



At least then it'd be a fifty-fifty contest.



I'm not afraid to die if the duel's honest.







Regards,

shrike.




Most of our really good crimes involve taking out mind numbing television watching English villagers. Its what gets us through the night.
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Post by koan »

Nomad;523211 wrote: Most of our really good crimes involve taking out mind numbing television watching English villagers. Its what gets us through the night.


:wah:

yer funny.
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Post by spot »

jesse b;523206 wrote: if i think that you are going to shot me with an illegal gun and i use an illegal gun to stop you no jury in the land will or can convict me of muder self defence reasonable force same force as attack

sorry mate your it
Good lord... yes yes yes. And you STILL get convicted of possessing an illegal weapon, hence my saying you cannot in that circumstance "be innocent"!
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by koan »

flopstock, you seem to still be asleep.

There happens to be a good conversation going on in this thread. Sorry you are unable to see it for whatever is in your eyes at the moment.
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Post by Nomad »

flopstock;523226 wrote: Glad I slept in today. If I'd gotten up earlier I would have wasted a lot of my day fighting with folks...



For the record..



If someone doesn't accept PMs, that means they probably aren't interested in personal conversations. So then you should either let an issue go or take it to admin. You don't need to bring it out in a thread to the rest of us.



If the intent is not to stir crap, but rather to have a 'healthy discussion' on a topic... there is no excuse for quoting anyone but yourself as an example. You could just as easily started this thread with your personal experience rather then 'comments' made in the heat of battle by anyone on this site.



That would have made for an interesting topic.



This one is crap.



Later kids.


I disagree. If an individual makes a controversial statement in an open manner its fair game. This is a discussion board. Why are we so afraid to speak our minds here ? Isnt that why were here ?
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Post by SuzyB »

I don't believe that as a society we should be encouraging people handling guns. The amount of kids dying over here due to guns is a tragedy. I don't think the average person is responsible to handle a gun, i know from the type of personality i have, it would of been disastrous for me to handle a gun especially in my younger years, i had a terrible temper and always struck first and thought later. Add in the lethal mix of drink or alcohol people think that they are above the law.

I have read the thread and don't think that BR or Patsy meant their comments literally, i myself quite often say to the kids i'm going to kill them, but it's only said in jest.

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Post by Nomad »

SuzyB;523234 wrote: I don't believe that as a society we should be encouraging people handling guns. The amount of kids dying over here due to guns is a tragedy. I don't think the average person is responsible to handle a gun, i know from the type of personality i have, it would of been disastrous for me to handle a gun especially in my younger years, i had a terrible temper and always struck first and thought later. Add in the lethal mix of drink or alcohol people think that they are above the law.



I have read the thread and don't think that BR or Patsy meant their comments literally, i myself quite often say to the kids i'm going to kill them, but it's only said in jest.



:-6 :-6




I dont think anyone thinks they were being literal. I dont think that makes a difference.
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Post by koan »

it didn't cross my mind that they would seriously look for a member of the forum with a gun in hand. It is the way some people seem able to fling it about in conversation with a sense of "coolness" or power in the fact that they own a gun or are capable of using it.

Just the thought of owning a gun gives me a sick feeling. And the idea of pointing it at anyone is horrifying. For me.
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Post by valerie »

Arriving late, I only have a couple of things to say about this. I think

where it went "astray" was the posting of the links. Be assured, I read

it through carefully 3 times before posting. I'm trying to be fair with my

statements.



My thoughts are, first, the posts in that thread should have been reported.

If links are asked for in this one, maybe a pm for direction would be

best. As it is, I find it very likely that whole thread will be composted

or deleted entirely.



I ask all of you to consider the fact that just a few short months ago, one

of the persons in question suffered a very serious head trauma. Is that

an excuse? An emphatic NO. But it DOES enter into it. So report the posts,

all of them, and let admin deal with those users as he sees fit.



And I have to say I think Bill Sikes owes any female users here an apology,

and his post should probably be reported, too. No woman user here

should have to get the "that time of the month" snark from any other

user. For the record, Bill, I'm 54 years old and it hasn't been that time

for me since last July. TMI? Perhaps, but I think it needed to be said.



And Jesse, when I read your post I understood you to mean that a

person could not be guilty of killing someone, and I guess I felt it was

implied that they might still be charged with carrying an illegal weapon.

Just letting you know how another reader might take your post.



As for shrike, I saw a whole lot of :void(0)"> going on. A couple of

other users were "harsh" but that is their way, and if they need to

be taken down a peg or two, or get a "time-out" so be it and again, for

admin to decide. It is my understanding that we just recently had

things put in place to warrant some people receiving infractions. Let

the "system" go to work.



I know I'm "wordy" but I would just like to add, I believe in my right to

keep and bear. That comes with a huge responsibility, and part of that

responsibility is to not take ANY part of it "lightly".
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Post by Nomad »

flopstock;523247 wrote: Yes, I agree. That is why we are here.



That is why I am speaking my mind.



I think this thread is a load of crap. It's original intent was NOT to discuss our views on guns and gun control, but rather to take folks to task for the expressions that they use.



That being the case.. here's my take on it..



Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me..

And you've apparently missed the part where koan said BR doesn't accept PMs. That tells me that it WAS personal to koan... at least until she couldn't get her 'shot' in that way.:thinking:




I realize that there are some folks that are very proud gun owners but, last I heard, threatening to shoot people on FG was against the rules. A little more restraint, people. Please.



Sorry foop but I think thats fair legitimate and polite.



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Post by koan »

flopstock;523247 wrote: Yes, I agree. That is why we are here.



That is why I am speaking my mind.



I think this thread is a load of crap. It's original intent was NOT to discuss our views on guns and gun control, but rather to take folks to task for the expressions that they use.



That being the case.. here's my take on it..



Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me..



And you've apparently missed the part where koan said BR doesn't accept PMs. That tells me that it WAS personal to koan... at least until she couldn't get her 'shot' in that way.:thinking:


I tried to send BR a PM with a link to the thread so it wouldn't be misconstrued as being an attack on her behind her back. In it I wrote that this was not a personal attack and I really wanted to hear her point of view. Then found I couldn't send it.

put your detective goggles away.

whatever slant you insist on projecting here. there is no denying that a conversation is taking place. Despite you.
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