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Captain Ray
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Post by Captain Ray »

children in the United States are twelve times more likely to die of gunshot wounds than any other country in the world not actually involved in civil war.




What is it with liberal gun grabbers? Do they think that every time they bring up the word "children" they suddenly have a winning argument? I doubt the statistic anyway.. It's not sourced, and seems pretty far out there. Not to mention the "qualifier".

How often are children hurt by baseball bats? I bet there are a lot more injuries by children wielding baseball bats than guns...

"The right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed". That is why today there are some 230 million guns in the USA— a rate of ownership of one per adult.


Well.. I own six handguns, two shotguns, and three rifles.. thats 11. (I also have a bb-gun, and a couple of airsoft pistols.. so I suppose you could throw those into the mix..) at any rate... that statistic is retarded.

Even so.. the number of guns should increase, not decrease. A well armed society is a polite one.

So it was the right of the people to organize and arm themselves as militias, repeat militias, that was being guaranteed, not the right to carry arms when on private business.

There is nothing to stop Congress imposing gun control, except for Americans' relatively newfound love for the gun. For this a large share of the blame belongs to Hollywood.




Piffle!! The 2nd amendment is quite clear. The right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

Read the whole thing for yourself

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Post by Marie5656 »

Captain Ray wrote:

Well.. I own six handguns, two shotguns, and three rifles.. thats 11. (I also have a bb-gun, and a couple of airsoft pistols.. so I suppose you could throw those into the mix..) at any rate... that statistic is retarded.

[Raymond


You and my husband would get along well. He owns several guns, also. I do not know the exact count. The only concession he has made to my wishes is that he keeps them in a locked closet.
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Post by Captain Ray »

Marie wrote: The only concession he has made to my wishes is that he keeps them in a locked closet.




That is not an unreasonable concession to make.. only the gun on my hip, and the one on the nightstand need to be outside the gun locker if they aren't being used or cleaned.

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Post by AussiePam »

Captain Ray wrote: A well armed society is a polite one.




I've quoted you Captain Ray, politely. I'm sure you wouldn't be rude back to me, but if you were, then by this kind of logic, I should have the right to shoot you. Lucky I'm not carrying, but I do enjoy shooting, and am considered a good shot.
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Post by Captain Ray »

AussiePam wrote: I've quoted you Captain Ray, politely. I'm sure you wouldn't be rude back to me, but if you were, then by this kind of logic, I should have the right to shoot you. Lucky I'm not carrying, but I do enjoy shooting, and am considered a good shot.


Ummm.. OK. Why would I be rude to you? And if you ever feel that you have the right to shoot me.. understand that I feel that I have the right to shoot back.

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Post by BabyRider »

That's the problem with number crunching and stats. It's fairly simple to make the numbers come out the way you like them to. Even if the numbers are accurate, why do you think they're so high? Because we have SO many guns!!



I posted a thread months ago that had stats to show that backyard pools, driving, and DOCTORS were all responsible for more deaths than any guns. It just depends on who is doing the number crunching.
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Post by gmc »

posted by captain Ray

Even so.. the number of guns should increase, not decrease. A well armed society is a polite one.


Judging by some of the posts round here it seems also to be an increasingly paranoid one. You all seem terrified that some total stranger is going to attack you. I suspect if I was an american I would probably carry a gun to protect myself from all the nutters that carry a gun and might use it at the least provocation.

Now if I find myself in a confrontational situation I don't have to worry the other guy might have a gun. On the other hand if he decides to attack me there is no easy option he has to take the risk I will damage him severely. An unarmed society is less risky than an armed one at least some wee ba'heid will find it difficult to get his hands on a gun to boost his insignificant sense of self.
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Post by BabyRider »

gmc wrote:





Judging by some of the posts round here it seems also to be an increasingly paranoid one. You all seem terrified that some total stranger is going to attack you. I suspect if I was an american I would probably carry a gun to protect myself from all the nutters that carry a gun and might use it at the least provocation.



Now if I find myself in a confrontational situation I don't have to worry the other guy might have a gun. On the other hand if he decides to attack me there is no easy option he has to take the risk I will damage him severely. An unarmed society is less risky than an armed one at least some wee ba'heid will find it difficult to get his hands on a gun to boost his insignificant sense of self.


Oh, yes, and how many times have we heard THIS?? Ladies and gentlemen, your typical anti-gun war cry, as seen above^^^^^^

Good grief, I am sick and damn well tired of being considered a "nutter" and paranoid, and having a low self-esteem. Because.....NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-5 :-5 :-5 :-5
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Post by Nomad »

As long as Ive been walking this Earth Ive never had cause to need a weapon on my person. If the odds are that by some slight chance one day I might need a gun, Ill not have one. I still like my chances.
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Post by Captain Ray »

And I celebrate your right as an American to be unarmed if you choose... but if you ever change your mind, I am glad that you can.

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Post by gmc »

BabyRider wrote: Oh, yes, and how many times have we heard THIS?? Ladies and gentlemen, your typical anti-gun war cry, as seen above^^^^^^

Good grief, I am sick and damn well tired of being considered a "nutter" and paranoid, and having a low self-esteem. Because.....NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-5 :-5 :-5 :-5


I wasn't actually trying to have a go at you so please don't take it that way. But quite a few of these gun type threads start off with someone being worried in case they get attacked so they want a gun and by god how they resent people trying to take it away from them and what they will do if attacked. You do seem slightly obsessed with the subject (as in you generally not you specifically)

It's then gets irritating when they start telling us in the UK how wev'e been deprived of the right to defend ourselves by our nasty govt, which is a load of rubbish.

We do have a problem with gun crime but it is highly localised and will be dealt with. We also have a problem with knife crimes as we have had in the past with it becoming fashionable amongst teenegers to have gang fights etc. Sectarianism gives it a vicious twist in some areas. Used to be quite common now it's coming round again.
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Post by Captain Ray »

The crime stats there on the British isle do not seem to be a very good argument for gun control, the way I see it.. It is true, that the number of incidents involving guns are less in your country.. but that is probably population.. one thing is for sure.. in your country, for the most part only criminals have guns.. the rest of you are sheep awaiting slaughter..

but it's your country, not mine. Run it however you like.

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Post by BabyRider »

gmc wrote: I wasn't actually trying to have a go at you so please don't take it that way. But quite a few of these gun type threads start off with someone being worried in case they get attacked so they want a gun and by god how they resent people trying to take it away from them and what they will do if attacked. You do seem slightly obsessed with the subject (as in you generally not you specifically)



It's then gets irritating when they start telling us in the UK how wev'e been deprived of the right to defend ourselves by our nasty govt, which is a load of rubbish.



We do have a problem with gun crime but it is highly localised and will be dealt with. We also have a problem with knife crimes as we have had in the past with it becoming fashionable amongst teenegers to have gang fights etc. Sectarianism gives it a vicious twist in some areas. Used to be quite common now it's coming round again.
But when you make blanket statements about ANYONE who owns guns, you do include me in your generalizing. You don't want a gun? Don't own one. But don't call me paranoid or a "nutter" because I choose to own them myself, for whatever reason, be it home protection, or sport, or whatever.

Everyone gets these ideas about gun owners, because all that's reported is when something goes awry. No one wants to sit there and listen to stories of the hundreds of thousands of responsible gun-owners who never have any incident of any kind...that doesn't make for ratings or selling papers. So, you suck up what the liberal, anti-gun media spoon-feeds you and accept it as gospel. When you anti-gun "whackos" can have an original thought of your own, THEN come back and talk to me.
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Post by Marie5656 »

I come from the perspective of a person who has never been anti-gun ownership..but who also has never owned a gun....except for those now in my house because they are my husband's.

Do I feel safer or more secure because they are there? I would have to very honestly say "I do not know". Mainly because I do not know how to use them! I have asked my husband several times to take me to a gun range some time and at least show me the basics, in case I had to use one. But we have just never found the time.
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Post by AussiePam »

I regret posting in this thread. I'm not anti guns and the times I've had the opportunity to do it, I've always enjoyed shooting. Also, I've spent a lot of time in the States, so have some appreciation of the strength of feeling about gun ownership there. I've read all the posts and want to make one point.

This is a multicultural forum, though an English speaking one. And English in the UK and in North America and in Australasia are different languages, though we get lulled into thinking the same word means the same thing for all of us.

What really is very very different though is our cultures. The great countries we each love grew up differently, and we all carry "baggage" (I don't mean this as a negative concept) from our histories, short or long, and from the people who make up our populations.

I don't really think it's possible to look at a foreign country in the same way the locals look at it, and this issue is a local issue for our loved and respected American FGers.

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Post by Captain Ray »

Marie5656 wrote: I come from the perspective of a person who has never been anti-gun ownership..but who also has never owned a gun....except for those now in my house because they are my husband's.

Do I feel safer or more secure because they are there? I would have to very honestly say "I do not know". Mainly because I do not know how to use them! I have asked my husband several times to take me to a gun range some time and at least show me the basics, in case I had to use one. But we have just never found the time.


That to me is odd.. but that's just me. I really like it when Lilly goes shooting with me.. I get to do that "man" thing about knowing all there is to know about everything.. which I don't.. but she humors me... Shooting is something I enjoy, and the fact that Lilly enjoys it too makes it even better!

I like talking with her about how the guns work.. we have single action, double action, SA/DA, blowback, revolvers... some have crossbar safeties, others trigger safeties, grip safeties, manual safeties.. it runs the whole gambit.. and I like her to know how every one of them works.. because God forbid.. if the day ever comes and she needs to know how to use them.. I would be pretty sorry if I didn't show her...

You might want to let your man know that you are interested.. his life might depend on it someday!! Probably not.. but it could...

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Post by Lulu2 »

Captain Ray says: "How often are children hurt by baseball bats? I bet there are a lot more injuries by children wielding baseball bats than guns..."



Perhaps...but I'll bet that more children are KILLED by guns than baseball bats. I lose patience with gun owners who pronounce themselves "RESPONSIBLE" and then keep guns in a place available to children.
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Post by BabyRider »

Lulu2 wrote: Captain Ray says: "How often are children hurt by baseball bats? I bet there are a lot more injuries by children wielding baseball bats than guns..."





Perhaps...but I'll bet that more children are KILLED by guns than baseball bats. I lose patience with gun owners who pronounce themselves "RESPONSIBLE" and then keep guns in a place available to children.
There's more children killed by doctors and automoblies each year depending on the study you look at. When does the outcry for banning Doctor visits and cars begin?

I do claim to be a responsible gun owner, and guess what? My son has access to my guns. He's 17, has grown up around guns, knows how to handle them safely, (which is not to at all if I'm not with him) and he respects them.

So, which are you? Anti-gun or pro-gun?
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Post by gmc »

Captain Ray wrote: The crime stats there on the British isle do not seem to be a very good argument for gun control, the way I see it.. It is true, that the number of incidents involving guns are less in your country.. but that is probably population.. one thing is for sure.. in your country, for the most part only criminals have guns.. the rest of you are sheep awaiting slaughter..

but it's your country, not mine. Run it however you like.

Raymond


Don't worry we will.

posted by baby rider

But when you make blanket statements about ANYONE who owns guns, you do include me in your generalizing. You don't want a gun? Don't own one. But don't call me paranoid or a "nutter" because I choose to own them myself, for whatever reason, be it home protection, or sport, or whatever.

Everyone gets these ideas about gun owners, because all that's reported is when something goes awry. No one wants to sit there and listen to stories of the hundreds of thousands of responsible gun-owners who never have any incident of any kind...that doesn't make for ratings or selling papers. So, you suck up what the liberal, anti-gun media spoon-feeds you and accept it as gospel. When you anti-gun "whackos" can have an original thought of your own, THEN come back and talk to me.




OK fair enough. But stop making genaral statements about in the UK how only crimnals have guns and we are all going to be murdered in our beds because we can't protect ourelves. It's a load of bollocks.

Why the hang up about liberals? Do you have a problem with people who believe in individual freedom and liberty? That is after all what liberals stand for.

Incidentally we don't have an anti-gun media. It's not that much of an issue here apart from heated debates about when the police are going to deal with gun crime and why don't the courts hand out stiffer sentences for violent crimes, although new labour try and dodge responsibility for that one as well.
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Post by gmc »

Diuretic wrote: I've been watching those little excerpts from SkyNews dealing with CO19 over the last week or so, seems to me the Met at least is well tooled up to deal with shooters.


Violent crime is hardly something new and we've had years of dealing with terrorists it's not something we get hysterical about.
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Post by Accountable »

Nomad wrote: As long as Ive been walking this Earth Ive never had cause to need a weapon on my person. If the odds are that by some slight chance one day I might need a gun, Ill not have one. I still like my chances.Captain Ray wrote: And I celebrate your right as an American to be unarmed if you choose... but if you ever change your mind, I am glad that you can.


:yh_clap

This is the beauty of America - CHOICE!



I wholeheartedly agree with both of these statements. We don't castigate people for not wanting to own/use firearms, only for wanting to take the choice away from everyone.



I don't condemn my UK friends for outlawing gun ownership (or whatever verb you wish to use, just take my point) any more than I condemn those parents who prohibit their kids from playing contact sport. I am simply saddened that the UK citizenry doesn't trust their own people to make their own decisions (individually) and be responsible for those decisions.



But, as Pam so eloquently put it, it's a cultural difference that has no bearing on our friendships.
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Post by Captain Ray »

GMC wrote: stop making genaral statements about in the UK how only crimnals have guns


Why is this an unfair generalization?

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Post by gmc »

posted by accountable

I don't condemn my UK friends for outlawing gun ownership (or whatever verb you wish to use, just take my point) any more than I condemn those parents who prohibit their kids from playing contact sport. I am simply saddened that the UK citizenry doesn't trust their own people to make their own decisions (individually) and be responsible for those decisions.


It's a collective choice not to allow people free access to weapons that have only one purpose which is to kill. Essentially anyone wanting such a thing has just demonstrated why he shouldn't get one. An obsession with guns and violence we regard as unhealthy. It really is a cultural difference, just accept we are different and a bit strange just as wqe accept you drive on the wrong side of the road and allegedly build cars that don't go round corners.

posted bt captain Ray

Why is this an unfair generalization?

Raymond


Because we have a police force in place to deal with it. they have guns and use them when they have to. It's a generalisation that is meaningless in a UK context. a sound bite with no substance. It would be more accurate to say some criminals use guns and we will get the b&^%^S.

It's not that we are any more law adinding than anyone else we just deal with it differently. If we allowed guns as you do we would have a blood bath. Old firm games are bad enough as it is.

Incidentally one of the reasons we have an unarmed police force is because at the creation of the police they were intended to be citizens in uniform. They were not intended to be an enforcement agency of govt but separate and independent with the sole purpose of upholding the law and keeping the peace. Being unarmed they needed public support and agreement to succeed. Uphold the law rather than enforce it. That's why they are controlled by local authorities and not central govt-except TB wants to change that. He's a dangerous man.

But one of the reasons we don't want to arm the police is for is it would be taking a slegehammer to crack a nut we have nothing like the levels of gun crime you have in the states. Nor are we all terrified of violent crime the current rise in violence we can sort out without losing something very precious. Unarmed police are unigue to us, peculiarly british. I live in a country where if a policemen stops me he needs a good reason for doing so and no I'm not prepared to carry an Identity card either. It's got bog all all to do with combatting terrorism and everything to do with TB and his control freakery.
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Post by Lulu2 »

BABYRIDER asks: "So, which are you? Anti-gun or pro-gun?"

I'm firmly behind your right to bear arms, should you choose. And, although YOU may be responsible in the way you manage your guns and your 17-year old son, here in L.A. area, we see many young children killed because they were playing with someone's (IRRESPONSIBLY MANAGED) gun!

Owning one means having the responsibility to store it and manage it so that children cannot have access to it.

That's my feeling.

I also have trouble with the massive numbers of unregistered guns in the hands of "gang-bangers." As a juror on a gang-related murder case, I was horrified to see the dozens of guns in the possession of these horrible people when they were finally arrested.

It's one thing to have a gun for hunting or self-protection....I don't think anyone really "needs" an UZI unless they have crime in mind.
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Post by Captain Ray »

I need an Uzi.. I could use an Uzi for cutting brush. (and killing bad guys..) I should be able to own one.. I can, If I pay the BATFE the appropriate tax.... but I pay too much tax already..

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Post by BabyRider »

gmc wrote: OK fair enough. But stop making genaral statements about in the UK how only crimnals have guns and we are all going to be murdered in our beds because we can't protect ourelves. It's a load of bollocks.
Please point out to me exactly where I said that.
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Post by BabyRider »

Lulu2 wrote: It's one thing to have a gun for hunting or self-protection....I don't think anyone really "needs" an UZI unless they have crime in mind.
I don't "need" an AK-47 either, but I own one. Why? Because I can. My husband is an avid gun collector, and owns many types of guns. Not all of them will even be fired, neccessarily, and some will only be fired on a range for fun. But, it's about choice. We have it, we are going to keep it, and I'd never live anywhere that didn't allow me the choice. :yh_flag :yh_flag
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Post by BabyRider »

Captain Ray wrote: Why is this an unfair generalization?



Raymond
It's not, it's the absolute truth. Especially since it's illegal to own guns, anyone who owns one would be a criminal.
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Post by Captain Ray »

BabyRider wrote: It's not, it's the absolute truth. Especially since it's illegal to own guns, anyone who owns one would be a criminal.


My point exactly! Only law abiding citizens bother to own/carry their firearms legally.. all others own/carry them illegally.. hence.. in most of Europe.. for the most part, only criminals own guns. I bet that makes all the British girls feel comfortable...

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Post by Jives »

gmc wrote: posted by captain Ray



Judging by some of the posts round here it seems also to be an increasingly paranoid one.


Didn't you see Farenheit 9/11? All of America is flat out scared out of their little minds! I told the kids a couple of months ago to get outside and get some sun. They replied, "We can't, the child molesters will get us." That about sums up the mindset of the average American. Scared to death.

You all seem terrified that some total stranger is going to attack you.


In our own defense, that's because total strangers are attacking us.

I suspect if I was an american I would probably carry a gun to protect myself from all the nutters that carry a gun and might use it at the least provocation.


Which is why my first two comments may seem paradoxical, but are actually sensible. The whole gun ownership thing is a vicious circle. "The gangsters have guns, so I need one to protect myself." This, unfortunately, is true.

An unarmed society is less risky than an armed one.


I couldn't have said it better myself. Sometimes I really wish I lived in a country where they didn't allow guns for the sole reason that I wouldn't be worried that every gangbanger I see at Walmart is packed and ready to cap me.

Must be some nice peace of mind you have right there, GMC.;)
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Post by Jives »

Pinky wrote: At the end of the day, if someone is that much of a fruit loop that they're going to attack you, they will do it anyway, whether it's with a gun, knife or any old blunt instrument to hand.


True enough Pinky, but you do have a better chance at running away or even fighting them off if they don't have a gun. A gun is pretty much fatal, and at long distance.:-3
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Post by BabyRider »

Jives wrote: Must be some nice peace of mind you have right there, GMC.;)
You like it so much....go there.



Your comment about Americans being scared...that's as blanket a statement as gmc's "Americans who own guns are 'nutters'" and it's also wrong. I am not afraid of anything any more. I have been through hell and back and am currently living another kind of hell. And I'm still not afraid of anything.
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Post by BabyRider »

Pinky wrote: Most of them have been knifings though, which is rather worrying.
Time to ban all knives!!!
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[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Jives wrote: [...]. Sometimes I really wish I lived in a country where they didn't allow guns [...];)
http://leisure.travelocity.com/RealDeal ... IR,00.html
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Diuretic wrote: I'm an animal lover, I want the right to arm bears (so they can shoot back).:wah:
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Nomad
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Post by Nomad »

Accountable wrote: http://leisure.travelocity.com/RealDeal ... IR,00.html






Good one....he got you chives
I AM AWESOME MAN
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cherandbuster
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Post by cherandbuster »

Clancy wrote: I always feel it's better to visit a place before wild assumptions, and inaccurate stereotyping are made .


Clancy my friend

There will always be the 'bomb tossers' in any discussion group

I think you'll agree that most of us are rational, thoughtful adults.

Notice I said "most of us" :rolleyes: :-6
Live Life with

PASSION
!:guitarist





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Bill Sikes
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Post by Bill Sikes »

BabyRider wrote: It's not, it's the absolute truth. Especially since it's illegal to own guns, anyone who owns one would be a criminal.


If you are talking about Great Britain, it is not "illegal to own guns".
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cherandbuster
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Post by cherandbuster »

Jives

Can't you just go away?
Live Life with

PASSION
!:guitarist





Jives
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Post by Jives »

cherandbuster wrote: Jives

Can't you just go away?


You first.:D
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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cherandbuster
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 11:33 am

Gun grabbers speak freely (thanks to you and me..)

Post by cherandbuster »

Jives wrote: You first.:D


I guess I don't understand why you would want to stay here

when so many people don't like you

Can't you go poison another forum instead?
Live Life with

PASSION
!:guitarist





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