Guns And Cops In England

lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

Bothwell just called me and told me about this, i am so angry!! i know we've talked about guns in the UK before, i just hate that the average cops can't carry guns!! i know the philosophy behind it, but the times have changed! perhaps i simply relate to this woman officer too much. :-1 ...do any of the citizens of UK think this policy needs to be reconsidered?-Female officer shot dead in city

One female police officer is killed and another seriously injured during a shooting in Bradford.

Shock over police shooting death

--------------------
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Bez »

I've just been watching the news....a shocking waste of life....guns for police ?....I think we'll be moving towards this....I'm probably 70% in favour at the moment.



We definitely need harsher penalties for these crimes. We're far too soft in the UK in my opinion.
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

in my personal opinion cops in uniform with no gun might as well have a bullseye painted on their backs.
User avatar
Uncle Kram
Posts: 5991
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:34 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Uncle Kram »

Remember years ago as a kid hearing a Police view that arming the force would lead to an escalation in the use of firearms by unsavoury types. As we're generally considered to lag a few years behind the U.S., I think we've been lucky to remain gun-free for as long as we have. Most gun crime appears to be territorial and drug related. Can't see how the police can remain unarmed for much longer as shootings seem to be dramatically increasing. Think there's a generation coming who share a romanticised view of guns thanks to rap etc


THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN PUN
pantsonfire321@aol.com
Posts: 2920
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:26 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

A sad waste of life - i used to be in the met years ago when even the met vest(stabvest) wasnt compulsory. Times are changing an i think we do need more armed officers but not a full armed force .
Can go from 0 - to bitch in 3.0 seconds .:D







Smile people :yh_bigsmi







yep, this bitch bites back .;)
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Bez »

lady cop wrote: in my personal opinion a cop in uniform with no gun might as well have a bullseye painted on their backs.


It's a different culture here LC. In towns and villages police were part of the community (the village Bobby). While this is not happening so much now because a lot of the small Police starions have closed down, I do believe that they are striving to restore this again.... when I say 70% in favour of police carrying guns, I guess I'm thinking that in known troubled city areas it might be appropriate. Arnolds post is a very balanced view I feel.
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

i admit my bias, and i have a very romantic view of small villages and bobbies, but sadly it's true the drug and gun culture has encroached on a larger society of thugs. ......geeze, i have the entire "thin blue line" series, and i love the traditional bobby. but they need protection.
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

ArnoldLayne wrote: I have a vision of you, when you live here, of jumping out from behind a bush and shouting at some poor scrote "hit the floor *******, before I fill you with lead " or whatever it is you cops say. You'll have to ween your self off :wah:more like FREEZE M*****F****R! :lips: ...yeah, Bothwell is worried about that too. :yh_bigsmi
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by gmc »

You might find this interesting-its the text of thr Dimbleby lecture by the metropolitan police commissioner Sir Ian Blair.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressr ... leby.shtml

This kind of things is very rare which is why it gets such publicity and seems so shocking when it happens.
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

a superb (albiet long!) speech GMC. it had many salient points. i'll bet Sir Ian is armed. actually i really admire him for taking the heat about the subway shooting using SAS tactics.
User avatar
Uncle Kram
Posts: 5991
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:34 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Uncle Kram »

Us limeys are far more civilised than that. Hows about " I say old chum, would you mind terribly if I asked you to place the pistol on the floor and retreat to a safe distance. Jolly good - now we can all tootle off to the police station where the appropriate charges can be made and paperwork completed to satisfaction"


THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN PUN
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

Uncle Kram wrote: Us limeys are far more civilised than that. Hows about " I say old chum, would you mind terribly if I asked you to place the pistol on the floor and retreat to a safe distance. Jolly good - now we can all tootle off to the police station where the appropriate charges can be made and paperwork completed to satisfaction"right-o!
User avatar
Uncle Kram
Posts: 5991
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:34 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Uncle Kram »

Yeah I heard the speech. Not what I expected not knowing him well and relying on the medias portrayal of him. Seemed to talk a lotta sense so I guess I'm one of many to reconsider their opinion of him. Maybe the Blair boys should swap places


THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN PUN
User avatar
Galbally
Posts: 9755
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:26 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Galbally »

I read that speech, it was remarkable and I suppose underlines how difficult it is for the British police service in the era of unlimited terrorist threat and social disorder. The case today is very sad, and it is shocking that small time criminals would contemplate shooting dead an unarmed officer in broad daylight, though unfortunatly it has happened before. It does raise again the issue of arming the police (the Gardai in Ireland are similarly unarmed), but its my opinion that the police would not wish to be armed unless it is absolutley necessary, though of course there have always been armed officers, its arming all police officers that is at question here.

I guess like Blair has said its a question of both the police and wider society deciding what they want from the police force, what is the minimum amount of force required to effectively police Britain while maintaining the safety and lives of individual officers, that is not an easy question to answer, and I certainly don't know what the answer is. I personally would prefer if the police service in Britain and here in Ireland to remain unarmed; however, if the police make a convincing case why a generally armed force is necessary then I would accept it as a citizen. I just hope it doesn't come to that.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by BabyRider »

what is the minimum amount of force required to effectively police Britain while maintaining the safety and lives of individual officers,
Well, when the bad guys are the only ones with guns, I would think it's a pretty easy question to answer.



LC, I couldn't make the links work, (I'm sure it's my computer, not your links) so could you give a bit more detail on the story?
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

GMT



Policewoman shot dead in robbery









A female police officer has been shot dead and another seriously injured as they responded to an armed robbery in the centre of Bradford.

The gunmen are still at large, with surrounding roads closed and dozens of armed police patrolling the area in an effort to track them down.

The officers were called to Morley Street at 1525 GMT to deal with a robbery at a travel agent.

Tony Blair said he was "shocked and saddened" by the death.

Staff assaulted

One eyewitness told BBC News the robbery was at Universal Express travel agent.





Members of staff at the family-run business were assaulted and cash taken.

It is thought the officer who died was in her mid-30s and may have been a "probationer" - of less than two years' service.

A Downing Street spokesman said Tony Blair was "shocked and saddened" to hear of the shootings in Bradford and "his thoughts go out to the family and friends of the officers involved and to West Yorkshire police force".

Home Secretary Charles Clarke said: "While incidents of this sort are mercifully rare, they serve to remind us of the risks and dangers police officers face every day in their work to uphold the law and protect the public."

The incident comes less than three years after a 36-year-old was Tasawar Hussain shot dead as he tried to help police stop an armed robbery at another travel agent in Bradford.

Two men were later jailed for life for his murder and Mr Hussain was given a posthumous bravery award.

Two years ago Pc Ian Broadhurst from West Yorkshire police was shot dead in Leeds.

Former US Marine David Bieber was given a life sentence for the execution-style killing at Newcastle Crown Court in December 2004.

The last female officer killed in the UK was 29-year-old Pc Alison Armitage in March 2001 - she was run over and killed by a car thief in Oldham Lancashire. Before Friday's incident, the last police fatality was Det Con Michael Swindells who was fatally stabbed by a paranoid schizophrenic in May 2004 in Birmigham.

User avatar
Galbally
Posts: 9755
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:26 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Galbally »

[QUOTE=BabyRider]Well, when the bad guys are the only ones with guns, I would think it's a pretty easy question to answer.



I think you have a point, but its a bit of a simplification as well, I know you have a good knowledge of what life is like in England, so I'd be surprised if you didn't have an understanding of why ordinary people like myself would be very reticent about generally arming the police. I mean of course given what happened today its natural to just ask, why aren't these officers armed? But there are reasons why they are not armed in general, and its not just some kind of PC fad either, it was always intended and desired that the British police service would be unarmed for philosophical reasons, so you have to weigh a lot of things up. It may well prove to be the case that it simply besomes too dangerous or violent for all officers not to be armed, but whether that time has come I do not know. I do think it is vital given the nature of Fundamentalist terrorism that the debate on policing is held now in Britain as next year might be too late, but what the outcome of that debate is remains to be seen.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
User avatar
buttercup
Posts: 6178
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:12 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by buttercup »

i dont want our police armed, i totally understand your point of view lc but your in america where things are a lot diffrent, instances like this one mentioned is sad but you have to note how rare they are
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by BabyRider »

Actually I have very little idea of what life over there is like. What I do know is, if the cops there are going to start getting shot at with any frequency, it's time to give them a way to defend themselves. A simplification? Call it whatever you want, I'd be willing to bet these people are going to want a way to defend themselves.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by capt_buzzard »

Guns & Cops in Ireland.



www.eircom.net/news
User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by capt_buzzard »

ArnoldLayne wrote: Welcome back CaptCheers Arnold
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by OpenMind »

A couple of years ago, an innocent man was shot dead by trained and armed policemen, so I don't entirely hold with the idea of arming all police officers. This caused a hell of a furore both amongst the public and amongst the armed officers. However, all oficers should have bullet proof clothing as standard issue and should wear this to any violent type of crime scene. For that matter, foot patrols should have them on as well.

In the case mentioned above, the officers presumed that the man was carrying a gun without establishing the fact first. I feel that it should have been handled differently. This may not be the fault of the officers. The training methods and philosophy needs to be reassessed. We are not used to guns on the streets in our culture, although this seems to be rapidly changing. This is not the worst case of a shooting. One of the worst recently was of a muslim wedding where the bride was shot in the face by an armed robber. Notwithstanding, my heart goes out to the victims and their families in all these incidents. One of the WPCs was relatively new on the force. Such a needless waste of life. At the moment, I don't know which one died.
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by OpenMind »

Just heard that one of the WPCs was only on the force for 8 weeks. Still don't know which one yet.
User avatar
Galbally
Posts: 9755
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:26 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Galbally »

capt_buzzard wrote: Guns & Cops in Ireland.



www.eircom.net/news


Capt Buzzard, did you happen to see kenny's piece on gun crime in Ireland on the late late, it was quite interesting. I don't know how you feel about this, but I certainly don't want the Guards to be armed, though perhaps more tactical response units with better training and weapons may be necessary given this latest upsurge in gun toters.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
booradley
Posts: 508
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:30 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by booradley »

although this was a tragic waste of life, we've only had 38 serving police officers killed whilst on duty in the last thirty years. I'd have to vote no.
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

has anyone heard how the hospitalized officer is doing, and whether the scumbag shooters were caught yet?
booradley
Posts: 508
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:30 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by booradley »

she's holding her own, serious but not life threatening. Bradford still cordoned off. Don't know why, they're probably miles away by now.
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Bez »

This is the very latest LC....





Manhunt underway for Pc's killer







A massive police manhunt is underway after a policewoman was shot dead and her female colleague seriously injured.

The officers, probationers in their 30s with under two years service, were first on the scene at a robbery in a travel agents at 1530 GMT on Friday.

Up to three men ran out of the business in Bradford, Yorkshire, and fired several shots as they fled the scene.

West Yorkshire Police have appealed for any information on the identity and whereabouts of the gunmen.

Police have vowed to "track them down". The injured officer's condition is serious but not life threatening.

The force stressed both probationers had been wearing their body armour.

'Huge loss'

With the gunmen still at large, surrounding roads have been closed and dozens of armed police are patrolling the area.

The officers were called to Morley Street when a personal attack was sounded and police alerted.

They were nearest to the scene and had no idea an armed robbery was in progress.

Details of the officers or descriptions of the gunmen have not been released.

Assistant Chief Constable David Crompton said: "West Yorkshire Police has suffered a massive blow and we all feel a huge sense of loss.

"Our hearts go out to the families of the officers involved.

"We have lost a valued and loved colleague and another has been seriously injured and we must remember they were simply doing their job.

"Every single of West Yorkshire Police, from the chief constable down to the newest recruit, are determined we will track down the person responsible for this crime."

Staff assaulted

The robbery was at Universal Express travel agent.



The professionalism of West Yorkshire Police will ensure that the coward who took this brave officer's life is brought to justice





Jan Berry, Police Federation



Reaction to shooting





Members of staff at the family-run business were assaulted and cash taken.

Detective Superintendent Andy Brennan said the fatal shot was fired by the gang "almost immediately".

Several other shots were then fired, one of which hit the injured officer in the shoulder.

A Downing Street spokesman said Tony Blair was "shocked and saddened" to hear of the shootings in Bradford and "his thoughts go out to the family and friends of the officers involved and to West Yorkshire police force".

Home Secretary Charles Clarke said: "While incidents of this sort are mercifully rare, they serve to remind us of the risks and dangers police officers face every day in their work to uphold the law and protect the public."

The incident comes less than three years after 36-year-old Tasawar Hussain was shot dead as he tried to help police stop an armed robbery at another travel agent in Bradford.

Two men were later jailed for life for his murder and Mr Hussain was given a posthumous bravery award.

Two years ago Pc Ian Broadhurst from West Yorkshire police was shot dead in Leeds.

Former US Marine David Bieber was given a life sentence for the execution-style killing at Newcastle Crown Court in December 2004. The last female officer killed in the UK was 29-year-old Pc Alison Armitage in March 2001 - she was run over and killed by a car thief in Oldham Lancashire. Before Friday's incident, the last police fatality was Det Con Michael Swindells who was fatally stabbed by a paranoid schizophrenic in May 2004 in Birmingham.

A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

Far said I just know that the first time some perp pointed a gun my way would be that last time he was able to raise his hand to even hold a spoon in prison. ...and we are authorized to do exactly that, aim a gun at me , you are dead. period. you won't see a prison cell. ---------Far saidBottom line for me is that if you ask someone to risk their lives to serve and protect you should be obligated to protect them in everyway possible and still do their jobs....:yh_worshp :yh_clap :yh_clap
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Bez »

The latest on the Bradford shootings....



Woman officer shot dead is named



The policewoman shot dead in Bradford on Friday had been a constable for only nine months, police said.

Sharon Beshendsky, 38, a mother of three children and two stepchildren, was killed on her youngest son's fourth birthday.

Her colleague injured in the shooting was Teresa Milburn, 37, who joined the West Yorkshire force in April 2004.

Police said they were seeking an Asian man and two black men armed with guns and a knife who raided a travel agents.

Pc Beshendsky was an "enthusiast, mature and very positive colleague", said Chief Constable Colin Cramphorn.

At press conference, Mr Cramphorn said the a man and a woman had been arrested in LOndon on Saturday in connection with the incident.

A huge police operation is under way in the search for the gunmen.

The officers, probationers in their 30s with under two years' service, came under attack during a robbery in a travel agents on Friday.

Up to three men ran out of the shop and fired several shots as they fled.

High-visibility police patrols have been deployed in the city in a move partly aimed at reassuring the public.



A white tent had been erected outside the entrance to the travel agents as two officers, armed with automatic machine-guns, stood at the edge of the police cordon.

Dozens of officers were combing side streets for forensic evidence.

Several bunches of flowers were laid at the edge of the cordon, paying tribute to the officers.

One read: "To our brave sister who died protecting us. Bradford will never forget you."

West Yorkshire Police appealed for information on the identity and whereabouts of the gunmen.



Assistant Chief Constable David Crompton said: "Every single member of the West Yorkshire Police, from the chief constable down to the newest recruit, is absolutely determined that we will get the people responsible for this crime."

The injured officer's condition is serious but not life threatening. The force said both probationers had been wearing their body armour.

'Huge loss'



Assistant Chief Constable David Crompton



The officers were called to Morley Street when a personal attack alarm was sounded by a member of staff and police were alerted.

The two women were nearest to the scene and had no idea an armed robbery was in progress.

Further details of the officers and descriptions of the gunmen were expected to be released at a press conference later.

ACC Crompton said: "We have lost a valued and loved colleague and another has been seriously injured and we must remember they were simply doing their job."

Staff assaulted

The robbery was at Universal Express travel agent.







Members of staff at the family-run business were assaulted and cash taken.

Detective Superintendent Andy Brennan said the fatal shot was fired by the gang "almost immediately".

Several other shots were then fired, one of which hit the injured officer in the shoulder. She has given officers a description of the men.

Terry Rooney, Labour MP for Bradford North, said it was a "devastating" and "tragic" incident for the victims' families and the people of Bradford.

The incident comes less than three years after 36-year-old Tasawar Hussain was shot dead as he tried to help police stop an armed robbery at another travel agent in Bradford.

Two men were later jailed for life for his murder and Mr Hussain was given a posthumous bravery award. Two years ago Pc Ian Broadhurst from West Yorkshire police was shot dead in Leeds. Former US Marine David Bieber was given a life sentence for the execution-style killing at Newcastle Crown Court in December 2004.

A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
User avatar
Uncle Kram
Posts: 5991
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:34 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Uncle Kram »

Guess it's too easy to just think of cops as cops, and forget that they're normal people with families just like the rest of us. Feel sorry for all concerned.

Wonder how things like this affect recruitment


THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN PUN
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Bez »

I guess there will be much debating over this issue......



Debate over whether to arm police



The murder of a female police probationer and attempted murder of her colleague by a gang of robbers has reignited debate over whether all police should carry guns.

Among the vocal supporters advocating guns for all officers is film director Michael Winner, who founded the Police Memorial Trust.

He said: "It's quite clear the criminals are all bringing guns.

"What wonderland are we living in? In France, Italy, Germany and Switzerland we see police with guns.

"The criminals are armed with guns and knives, with weapons that kill the police and I think they should have a better chance of retaliation."



Pc Norman Brennan, director of Protect the Protectors, said: "The time has come for an informed debate on a ballot of officers from every force on the full time arming of the British police service.

"The adage that if you arm the police more criminals will carry guns is nonsense. The police service are being outgunned on the streets of Britain day and night.

"The romantic image of the 'Dixon of Dock Green' unarmed 'bobby on the beat' has to be consigned to the history books.

"If police officers are to retain the highest confidence of the public and their own morale surely the time has come for them to be able to defend themselves and the British public with every means possible.

"If that includes the routine carrying of firearms then so be it."

'No demand'

However, Keith Hellawell, a former chief constable of West Yorkshire police, said: "There is no demand from within the service to arm the police."

He said successive polls among all ranks had shown there was no majority support for officers to carry guns as a regular occurrence.

"Whether that will change as a result of this we will see as time goes by," he said.

'Unarmed force'

Former Metropolitan Police Commissioner Lord Stevens said: "We throw away at our peril the type of policing we have had for hundreds of years in this country.

"We must have an unarmed force."

Sir Ian Blair, the current incumbent, has said 90%of the Met is unarmed and he "wants to keep it that way".

The Police Federation, which represents rank-and-file officers, says a recent poll of members found most were against routine arming of officers. A Home Office spokeswoman said: "Police officers need to be equipped to deal with dangerous situations where they have to protect themselves and the public. "But the policy in this country has long been that the police should not generally be armed and that gives a character to our policing that we should not readily give up."
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
ComfortablyNumb
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:35 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by ComfortablyNumb »

The poor policewoman had five kids, that's really tragic.

It will be a sad day when our police are armed. Self preservation is a strong instinct and there are bound to be mistakes which end in loss of innocent lives. If the police are armed then the criminals will be too - it's a never ending circle of violence.

Before we take the big armed police step I hope we tighten up the laws on gun's used in crimes. Making the carrying of a gun when a crime is committed an automatic life sentence would be a start.

The police do need protection but guns could be counter productive and might end in more being killed. We don't want armed shoot outs on our streets.
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by OpenMind »

Far Rider wrote: If she was armed the perp may be dead instead of her. If you wait for it to happen at least one innocent person dies.



Arm yourself and fight against them.



Bottom line for me is that if you ask someone to risk their lives to serve and protect you should be obligated to protect them in everyway possible and still do their jobs.


From my paper this morning, they didn't stand a chance. If they had guns, they would have had to have had them out and ready to fire. They were not told it was an armed robbery. My paper also said that they were not wearing body armour, this disputes what was said on the TV last night. This would not have helped them either as it is understood that they were both shot in the face.

If armed, our cops have the right to shoot to defend themselves, but not necessarily to kill. It is preferred to wound them so that they can be taken to trial.

In retrospect, the UK police force needs better protection but also needs a different type of training and a different approach to certain crimes that allows protection for the officers and the public, and provides for a swift response.
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

a face to the victim-----Woman Pc shot on child's birthday

Sharon Beshenivsky was previously a community support officer

The policewoman shot dead in Bradford on Friday was killed on her daughter's fourth birthday.

Sharon Beshenivsky, 38, a mother of three children and two stepchildren, had been a serving constable for only nine months.

Her colleague injured in the shooting was Teresa Milburn, 37, who joined the West Yorkshire force in April 2004.

Police said they were seeking an Asian man and two black men armed with guns and a knife who raided a travel agents.

They fired shots as they escaped with cash from the premises in Morley Street shortly after 1500 GMT.

----------------------
User avatar
Galbally
Posts: 9755
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:26 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Galbally »

Ladycop, I was watching a Sky News bulletin today on this story and they got an email from a retired police woman from Florida who now lives in the U.K. discussing the sad story, you wouldn't be related or anything would you?
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"



Le Rochefoucauld.



"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."



My dad 1986.
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

no, not related. .....quote from Open Mind....If armed, our cops have the right to shoot to defend themselves, but not necessarily to kill. It is preferred to wound them so that they can be taken to trial. end quote. that bends my brain. if someone has a weapon on me i don't want to merely wound him so he can have another shot at me! i am going to kill him. a difference in philosophy there! of course it is the wild west over here compared to UK, we assume people are armed. one day the English copper may have to make the same assumption.
User avatar
Bez
Posts: 8942
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by Bez »

No apologies needed Far...you have a valid point and I'm sure there'll be many who are of the same opinion.



There have been cases over here where people trying to defend themselves or their property end up being prosecuted...it's a mad world..
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by OpenMind »

4 men and a woman have been arrested.
User avatar
OpenMind
Posts: 8645
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:54 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by OpenMind »

Far Rider wrote: Im sorry to my cousin Brits before I say what I'm going to say.. My apologies.



This is unimaginable to me, really and I know its because Ive always been allowed to defend myself. In my mind the moment a person seeks to use a gun or a weapon of anykind to take or otherwise break the law, he has sealed his own fate. caught in the act of doing so he is immediatly fair game to kill. Thats it for me.



The classic movie standoff where the bad guy has the hostage and the cop has the shot to the head... if I were the cop, in a split second I'd drop the perp. and I'd sleep well after.



The type of person that uses a weapon to commit a crime KNOWS he is breaking the law, he has the weapon because he EXPECTS to meet resistance! Either by the authorities or a bystander.



The only way to stop evil, and criminals are EVIL, they are not misguided the are the total and complete enemy of a living society. SCUM!



There are obviously people out there, willing to kill someone who represent authority to get what they want... if they are willing to kill cops, then the common citizen is nothing to them.



It doesnt matter if the cops thought they were responding to an unarmed robbery, the point is armed they would have had equal chance to protect themselves and others.



I apologise again if my words offend, im just tryign to get a handle on this, and I'm coming from the outside and a way different perspective. It's mindboggling to me.


English law does not necessarily reflect what the British think. We're even on a dodgy legal wicket if we defend our homes. Even in your schools in America, a kid can't defend themselves without being charged.

Personally, I would do what I had to do to put down an assailant. If that means killing the bastard, then that's fine by me.
lady cop
Posts: 14744
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:00 pm

Guns And Cops In England

Post by lady cop »

OpenMind wrote: 4 men and a woman have been arrested.YES!! and unfortunately you can't hang them at newgate anymore, but that's a whole other thread......link from BBC--

Five arrested over Pc shootings

Four men and a woman are arrested in London over the shootings of two police officers in Bradford. ............
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Guns And Cops In England

Post by gmc »

posted by far rider

I'm trying to understand it. I don't see whats wrong with arming your sworn officers? They get traning, know the law, and are best equiped to handle them, much like your military?


Im sorry to my cousin Brits before I say what I'm going to say.. My apologies.


I apologise again if my words offend, im just tryign to get a handle on this, and I'm coming from the outside and a way different perspective. It's mindboggling to me.


Say what you think no one is likely to be offended-might disagree passionately but that is different from being offended. Far be it from me to call an american offensive i might get accused of being anti american :eek:



Right from the setting up of our police force they were intended as citizens in uniform to pinch a bit from Sir ian blairs Dimbleby lecture

What they produced has stood the test of time: citizens in uniform: who, as Peel said, 'are only members of the public that are paid to give full-time attention to the duties which are incumbent on every citizen'.




Most definitely not an oppressive part of the establishment and not sanctioned to use deadly force. It works for us. have a look at the number of floral tributes piling up at the scene, gives you an idea of what the local community feels about it. This is getting a tremendous amount of publicity simply because it is so rare an event.

Thay have already made an arrest

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/4452710.stm

Our police are private citizens granted extra power of arrest by royal warrant not paramilitaries. If we arm them we lose something very special about our culture.

No offence but we really do not want to go the way of america in this regard Try and imagine walking down the street and not meeting someone carrying a gun or if someone cuts you up in traffic the last thing likely to happen is they pull a gun and shoot. Going to a HOG owners outiong and the only thing anyone is packing is a beer gut. Most people want violent crime dealt with but the real problem is our courts are too lenient in sentencing what most regard as serious crimes.

posted by bez

There have been cases over here where people trying to defend themselves or their property end up being prosecuted...it's a mad world..






Tabloid hype again, in the last eleven years there have been fifteen prosecutions where people have been charged with using excessive force only seven were found guilty. Before you mention Tony martin it was a JURY OF HIS PEERS that decided that he was guilty not the judge. Mind you if TB gets his way the right to a jury trial will be curtailed as well. It's where you have magistrates or sheriff courts that you get daft decisions handed down but that's why you have an appeal system. (I'm scots don't know much about our legal systen never mind the English)

Return to “Gun Control”