Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

koan
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by koan »

You don't have choice when you feel like the only choice is to abort. You don't save babies by eliminating choice from all circumstances and making it a black or white issue.

Unfortunately, neither party seems willing to use their vast financial resources to actually giving women real choice.

Stupid religious bastards vs stupid political bastards.

Meanwhile babies are dying and women are suffering.
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Accountable
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by Accountable »

Well said.
gmc
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Post by gmc »

Why would you feel to abort is the only choice?
koan
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by koan »

Many women abort because if they don't they can't provide for their child/children/self.
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Post by koan »

To be clearer: They believe that if they have the child their life is "over".

Over= They will never be able to survive in anything other than poverty and government support.
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Ridiculous. Here you go again.
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Accountable
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by Accountable »

AnneBoleyn;1405152 wrote: Ridiculous. Here you go again.
What'd I miss?
koan
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by koan »

Accountable;1405172 wrote: What'd I miss?
You didn't miss anything. Apparently one can not feel that all abortions were not something the woman wanted without being an enemy of women's rights.
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theia
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by theia »

I think that families can exert far more pressure than any political/religious group.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Post by gmc »

koan;1405121 wrote: Many women abort because if they don't they can't provide for their child/children/self.


I don't think it as black and white as that - it always strikes me as a convenient way to rationalise things and convince people it is a purely selfish decision on the part of the woman. I note also that the first thing many right wing administrations do is cut any programmes that are intended to help single parents get in to the work place or benefits aimed at working mums. There's always seems to be that old moral divide between deserving and undeserving poor and single parents by the very fact of having a child out of wedlock have proven themselves unworthy. At least nowadays they can get to keep the child. It's not that long ago girls could be institutionalised for being feeble minded if they had a child out of wedlock. Don't know about the states or canada but it was still happening in the 60's here.

Judging former judge's ruling - Washington Times

Couldn't make it up could you?

theia;1405206 wrote: I think that families can exert far more pressure than any political/religious group.


and some religious families will never let the mother or child forget how they have sinned. Family life is good but it can also be pretty hellish if you are a member of the wrong family.
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

koan;1405122 wrote: To be clearer: They believe that if they have the child their life is "over".

Over= They will never be able to survive in anything other than poverty and government support.


It Is not the reliance on Government support that Is the lack of choice women face but the breakdown of family units.

Even 30 years ago, If a young woman became pregnant, the entire family would rally round. Often children were raised by sisters. aunts and mothers while the young mum finished education or went to work to provide for herself.

I remember a neighbour complaining a few years ago that her young daughter and baby were livingIn a hostel on benefit. Hang on, I said, but you've got a four bedroomes house'. She told me that If her daughter and child lived with her, she wouldn't get a council house and as much benefit....

When you eradicate the benefit system being used as a lifestyle Instead of a needy stop gap and get families to take responsibility Instead of the onus being entirely on the single mum, women will have more choice.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
koan
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Post by koan »

The saying goes "it takes a whole village to raise a child."
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Post by gmc »

oscar;1405252 wrote: It Is not the reliance on Government support that Is the lack of choice women face but the breakdown of family units.

Even 30 years ago, If a young woman became pregnant, the entire family would rally round. Often children were raised by sisters. aunts and mothers while the young mum finished education or went to work to provide for herself.

I remember a neighbour complaining a few years ago that her young daughter and baby were livingIn a hostel on benefit. Hang on, I said, but you've got a four bedroomes house'. She told me that If her daughter and child lived with her, she wouldn't get a council house and as much benefit....

When you eradicate the benefit system being used as a lifestyle Instead of a needy stop gap and get families to take responsibility Instead of the onus being entirely on the single mum, women will have more choice.


It's always the extreme case that . gets the publicity, thirty years ago a lot of families would turf out a girl that got herself pregnant and there are still those that would. There were still homes for fallen women on the go until the 90's. There is still a lot of stigma attached to being a bastard, now children of single parents are pilloried as kids from broken homes playing the system who are likely to end up as criminals. Have a read of the daily mail and you will see what I mean. One of my acquaintances, an avid daily mail reader it should be said, was banging on about such families until I pointed out A) her daughter was one such having had her husband walk out on her leaving her with two pre school kids was b) living on benefits and had been housed by the council. She hadn't actually thought it through.

Not every single parent does it to live on benefits and be housed by the council some find themselves pregnant and destitute destitute through no choice of their own. If they have an abortion they get condemned as selfish women looking after number one, if they have the kid they are condemned as a waste of space and a drain on society.
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

gmc;1405321 wrote: It's always the extreme case that . gets the publicity, thirty years ago a lot of families would turf out a girl that got herself pregnant and there are still those that would. There were still homes for fallen women on the go until the 90's. There is still a lot of stigma attached to being a bastard, now children of single parents are pilloried as kids from broken homes playing the system who are likely to end up as criminals. Have a read of the daily mail and you will see what I mean. One of my acquaintances, an avid daily mail reader it should be said, was banging on about such families until I pointed out A) her daughter was one such having had her husband walk out on her leaving her with two pre school kids was b) living on benefits and had been housed by the council. She hadn't actually thought it through.

Not every single parent does it to live on benefits and be housed by the council some find themselves pregnant and destitute destitute through no choice of their own. If they have an abortion they get condemned as selfish women looking after number one, if they have the kid they are condemned as a waste of space and a drain on society.


I'm not talking about the genuine needy when we talk of single mothers per say...

Years ago my late sister found herself a single mum but she was able to follow a career full time because my parents, our aunts and my eldest brother shared In raising the children so she could provide and pay a mortgage...Everyone In our family mucked In and In many ways, the kids were blessed for having so many people caring for them and loving them as their own... that's what I meant.... that sort of family mucking In way seems to have dissapeared In this materialistic greedy world of today.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

By Co-Incidence, I've just been chatting to my Great Niece on facebook who's baby Is due on Christmas day making me a Great Great Aunt....

She Is only 17 years old but she had plenty of options. I am actually very proud of the fact that her parents will raise the baby until she has finished her education and will continue to do so so she can work and support both of them.

I'm not saying I have the perfect family but that's what our family does... we all rally round and do our bit and we do it out of love not burden.... The baby will be raised by the family not the Government.... and now great great Auntie Is off to go shopping for baby....
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Ahso! »

Congratulations to your entire family, Oscar. Sounds like it's worth being proud of.
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Post by flopstock »

Last Sunday I went to the daughter of a friends baby shower.



The girl dropped out of school last year. Mother told her she had to have a job. Daughter went off to live with father and returned a month later because he told her she had to get a job.



She told mom that none of her friends were working, they all had kids and didn't have to work.



A month later mom got the glad tidings...:guitarist
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Ahso!;1405366 wrote: Congratulations to your entire family, Oscar. Sounds like it's worth being proud of. We're not a perfect lot... some of us get It wrong sometimes.... but unexpected pregnancies are viewed as new members of our family from day one and not some burden.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

flopstock;1405377 wrote: Last Sunday I went to the daughter of a friends baby shower.



The girl dropped out of school last year. Mother told her she had to have a job. Daughter went off to live with father and returned a month later because he told her she had to get a job.



She told mom that none of her friends were working, they all had kids and didn't have to work.



A month later mom got the glad tidings...:guitarist


Will Mom help raise the baby so she can go back to school ?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

koan;1405079 wrote: Meanwhile babies are dying and women are suffering.


Babies are not dying. A fetus is not a baby. Not every female in the world has the time or inclination to make every drama a trauma. Responsible women live with their decisions & don't try to protrude themselves in others' lives & situations.
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Post by koan »

You need to try, for a minute, to realize that I'm not against a woman making a decision to abort a fetus when she has considered her options and decided that's what she wants to do. I'm really not against that. What I'm against is the other women who have an abortion because to carry a baby to term and give birth to it will destroy her ability to provide for herself and her child. Two very different reasons for aborting.

If the first woman wants to abort, I have no inclination to take that option away from her.

What I want is for the second woman to be given the choice to not abort.

eta: The key is that the available choices include a legitimate option to have the baby.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

She has the choice not to abort, She has the choice to continue the pregnancy with the financial consequences. I realize birth control methods can fail, but using birth control indicates she does not want a(nother) pregnancy. If she didn't use birth control, then isn't she playing Russian Roulette? I wish we could all be happy & have the lives we want. Truly. Life isn't that way for the 99% who can't buy or sell our way out of the tough situations we find ourselves in.

There are too many people on this planet. It will prove our undoing.



We live in a climate where people are so angry they do not wish to help others; people are so short-sighted they don't even see they are eventually cutting their own throats. It is so selfish out there. A song that was an anthem for so many, in the sixties: "C'mon people now, Smile on your brother, Everybody get together, Try & love one another right now" ---- that idea today is not an anthem, it's an anathema today.

No one is stopping her pregnancy, except other people will not pay for it. That's not My Truth, it is The Truth.
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Post by koan »

You make it sound like babies are money pits better eliminated to help with population control.

I guess you don't buy the 'village to raise a child' spirit.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

koan;1405412 wrote: You make it sound like babies are money pits better eliminated to help with population control.

I guess you don't buy the 'village to raise a child' spirit.


While I know there are Too Too Many people on the planet I would love to make life for existing lives as wonderful as possible. I was speaking of the hostile climate, not my own heart.

I believe we are our brother's keeper. I don't have a litmus test for helping someone in need. They're in need, that's enough for me.

Babies are money pits; so are we all.

eta: get this through your beautiful head---a fetus--even an aborted one--is not a baby. Show me where I ever said a living baby, a baby BORN, should be eliminated. You can't, cause I didn't.
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Post by koan »

I'm not going to try and convince you that babies are worth trying to improve the world for. I think that is self evident and don't want to devolve my thinking to a point where a person has a dollar value. The idea that ridding the world of a few lives reduces the financial strain on the rest of us is possibly why you're okay with bombing Iran. You and I will not be able to agree on such things.
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

koan;1405425 wrote: I'm not going to try and convince you that babies are worth trying to improve the world for. I think that is self evident and don't want to devolve my thinking to a point where a person has a dollar value. The idea that ridding the world of a few lives reduces the financial strain on the rest of us is possibly why you're okay with bombing Iran. You and I will not be able to agree on such things.


Strange. You're the second person today to speak for me. I don't think it is ok to be bombing Iran, certainly not now, they are only ranting, haven't really done anything yet---come to think of it, kinda like you.

You think on such dramatic lines you don't see the simplicity in a statement, you look for meanings & motives that don't exist. *I* have not said a person has a dollar worth, but it does cost money to live & to raise kids. I'm not making that up. Or am I? Hmmmm.
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Post by koan »

AnneBoleyn;1405427 wrote: Strange. You're the second person today to speak for me. I don't think it is ok to be bombing Iran, certainly not now, they are only ranting, haven't really done anything yet---come to think of it, kinda like you.


http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/curre ... ost1404755

Population problems should not be a consideration in whether or not a woman gives birth.
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

Gosh koan, you sure Got Me (not):

"Found a great reason to blow up Iran:

blah blah blah blah blah

Actually, I would NOT blow up Iran, but I wouldn't wipe their tears either."

See? Changed my mind, wouldn't blow up Iran after all. Gee you're silly :yh_rotfl

No, population problems aren't on every individual parent's mind. If people don't want kids, or responsibly limit family size---I think that's ideal, my opinion anyway. We have a crazed celebrated family here, the Duggens, I think their name is, who have 20 kids. It's not against any law. I haven't felt the need to picket them.

I think you're just making conversation. That's ok, this is a message board where Silence is Golden isn't appreciated.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Science has value ... unless it becomes inconvenient.

A human has value ... unless we don't feel like it.

This is what situational ethics at it's finest.

We do not have too many people in the world. We pay farmers not to grow food. We use food to make car fuel. We throw food away that's so fresh that people stay perfectly healthy and well-fed by digging it out of the dumpster. The problem isn't the population, it's the distribution system. I've got no solutions, but we really should be clear.
koan
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Post by koan »

I don't go for the concept that the life of the fetus/baby outweighs the life of the mother. I think there are a number of situations where the life of the mother is in jeopardy if she continues with a pregnancy. Quality of life can be considered jeopardy but economic considerations are something that can be solved. I don't think anyone is in a position to say that a woman who is at physical or mental health risks from continuing a pregnancy should value her own life less than that of an unborn child. Rape can cause mental health risks.

For economic concerns to influence whether or not a child can be born is a travesty.
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Post by koan »

Though I know this won't go over well, this video reminds me of how people deflect from a fetus being a baby.



Sometimes you have to choose between two lives but... language shouldn't get in the way of understanding that choice.
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AnneBoleyn
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

A fetus is not a baby. Have you gone to counseling for your inability to accept your choices?
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Post by AnneBoleyn »

".....Even women who believe that abortion is murder have chosen to get abortions, and will continue to do so[1]. That's why we should leave the decision up to women’s moral conscience, and make sure that they are provided with safe, legal, accessible abortions. Because ultimately, the status of a fetus is a matter of subjective opinion, and the only opinion that counts is that of the pregnant woman."

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK
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AnneBoleyn
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"However, anti-choicers insist not only that a fetus is a human being, but that this status is an objective scientific fact. Unfortunately, they are assuming the very thing that requires proving, thereby committing the logical fallacy of "begging the question." "

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

I'm allowing this piece to speak for me, koan, as there is something about you that makes my blood boil. Either I consider you a self-righteous bitch who talks the most & the loudest to feel like a winner---OR---I'm madly in love with you. :-4
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

A fetus is a human being, provable by any scientifically accepted DNA test. It doesn't take being an "anti-choicer" (Whatever TF that is) to understand that basic, sound, scientific fact. It begs no question.

You react as if your religion is being challenged.
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Oscar Namechange
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

Weather a fetus Is a baby or not Is In the eye of the beholder...

Abortion Is done lighly In some cases but the effects long term are damaging...I've yet to meet any woman who has aborted a fetus who breezed through the rest of their lives without a deep sense of loss and guilt.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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theia
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Post by theia »

oscar;1405701 wrote: Weather a fetus Is a baby or not Is In the eye of the beholder...

Abortion Is done lighly In some cases but the effects long term are damaging...I've yet to meet any woman who has aborted a fetus who breezed through the rest of their lives without a deep sense of loss and guilt.


I've never met anyone who has breezed through life...but I have met women who have wholly accepted their decision to terminate a pregnancy and have moved on.
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Post by Accountable »

theia;1405703 wrote: I've never met anyone who has breezed through life...
koan
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Post by koan »

In answer to your question, Anne, you'll be horrified to hear that the counsellor after my miscarriage asked me if I'd be interested in counselling others. Yes, I'm counsellor approved. Certified as a reasonable human being.

There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that some women abort and don't look back on it. That's not the issue.

A lot of people don't die of cancer and yet we try to find a cure.

That's such a strange argument used incessantly to make people shut up. I'm happy for women who don't feel bad about their abortions. I see absolutely no reason why that negates that some women only choose it because they don't have a better option.
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Post by theia »

koan;1405762 wrote: In answer to your question, Anne, you'll be horrified to hear that the counsellor after my miscarriage asked me if I'd be interested in counselling others. Yes, I'm counsellor approved. Certified as a reasonable human being.

There is not a shred of doubt in my mind that some women abort and don't look back on it. That's not the issue.

A lot of people don't die of cancer and yet we try to find a cure.

That's such a strange argument used incessantly to make people shut up. I'm happy for women who don't feel bad about their abortions. I see absolutely no reason why that negates that some women only choose it because they don't have a better option.


All arguments are strange. All arguments are partial. No argument can emanate from an impartial place because we all have experiences and we have all developed opinions from these experiences. That said, arguments can be fun and interesting. They can also make us think more deeply and perhaps point us to those places within ourselves that we could examine more closely.

I don't understand how saying that some women can accept their decision to abort and move on is a way to shut other women up. Why can't they say this without being accused of trying to silence other women's experiences?
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Post by koan »

theia;1405768 wrote:

I don't understand how saying that some women can accept their decision to abort and move on is a way to shut other women up. Why can't they say this without being accused of trying to silence other women's experiences?
When it is said "Have you gone to counseling for your inability to accept your choices?" that would be enough to stun a few less brazen people into silence or make them start using filtered words.

It's not good debate.

As I have consistently said, I'd like to see people working together to save more lives without the threat of options to abort being on the table for elimination. I think it's possible to continue allowing that option while improving the options for those who do not want to abort.
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Post by theia »

koan;1405769 wrote: When it is said "Have you gone to counseling for your inability to accept your choices?" that would be enough to stun a few less brazen people into silence or make them start using filtered words.

It's not good debate.



As I have consistently said, I'd like to see people working together to save more lives without the threat of options to abort being on the table for elimination. I think it's possible to continue allowing that option while improving the options for those who do not want to abort.


Wow! If that is what's said, then I can see your point.
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Post by koan »

theia;1405770 wrote: Wow! If that is what's said, then I can see your point.
Here's the link in case the other sentence gives it a different context. :P

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/abort ... ost1405576

But I started this thread with the intention of discussing how groups can work together so I'm interested in pursuing that goal.
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theia
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Post by theia »

koan;1405771 wrote: Here's the link in case the other sentence gives it a different context. :P

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/abort ... ost1405576

But I started this thread with the intention of discussing how groups can work together so I'm interested in pursuing that goal.


That link won't work for me, not sure why.
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Post by Betty Boop »

theia;1405773 wrote: That link won't work for me, not sure why.


It's a link for post no 32 in this thread Theia :) I think you have something on your computer that seems to stop you opening any link at all. Maybe your security is locked down really tight, I'm not sure.
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theia
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Post by theia »

Oh, I didn't realise when I replied in post 42 that koan's comment was a direct quote from another poster on this thread, I thought she was speaking generally. That's what made me think the link that followed was to an external discussion.
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Post by koan »

There seems to be a lot of time and money being spent trying to manipulate courts instead of trying to improve the conditions for single women. In Ontario we had a thing called "Mother's Allowance" but it had similar flaws to welfare: They didn't pay enough to adequately provide living expenses but the conditions of receiving it prevented finding supplemental employment. Effectively, a woman could stay home and receive 'mommy welfare' or go to work and make the same amount of money or less, by the time they paid for childcare. Kids from minimum wage homes will have to submit to massive debt to get an education and debt avoidance is a common reason to not get post secondary education.

I think a few good starting points would be women's housing with available daycare. An increase in student grants vs loans. Better retraining programs. Introduction of a "working wage supplement" for women who aren't broke but have no secondary income to tide them through lost work time from a pregnancy and childbirth. For a woman to give up her career or home because of lost wages is the same motive to abort as one who has nothing to start with.
freetobeme
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by freetobeme »

I'm pro choice. I used to believe it was a woman's right to abort no matter what, no questions asked, but lately I've come to modify that. I believe abortion should be restricted to the first 20 weeks (even that is pushing it) as babies can survive at 21 weeks, rare but it's happened. Except of course for the health of the mother. I know late term in Canada is only about 1%, but now we have gender selective abortions as some women are choosing to abort if it's a girl.
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AnneBoleyn
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Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by AnneBoleyn »

freetobeme;1408065 wrote: I'm pro choice. I used to believe it was a woman's right to abort no matter what, no questions asked, but lately I've come to modify that. I believe abortion should be restricted to the first 20 weeks (even that is pushing it) as babies can survive at 21 weeks, rare but it's happened. Except of course for the health of the mother. I know late term in Canada is only about 1%, but now we have gender selective abortions as some women are choosing to abort if it's a girl.


What about the health of the baby, freetobeme? We always speak of only the mother's health. What if there might be a possibility of live birth but the life, i.e. might be born without a brain? No lungs? What if serious, painful consequences, & a short life span is the future child's only future? Does a loving mother doom her beloved baby to this? Hooked up to wires, responding only to intense pain? What if this is known at 25 weeks? 26? 27?

I still believe it is a woman's right to abort, upon request of service. Her reasons are not mine to know. Her life, her choice. As much as we might like to impose what's best on other's, sometimes we just have to suck that up.

I'm hoping I don't sound combative. The safety, thus legality, of abortion is primary as the mother will do what she feels she must. The fact that you have changed a belief should not present itself in the lives of all the other women.

eta: acknowleging you as pro-choice, big smile in your direction! :-)
freetobeme
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm

Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are both wrong

Post by freetobeme »

Hey, you are not combative, that's what a discussion is all about, different ideas, I'm pleased to have a really civilized discussion rather than what was happening on a smaller forum I've just left.

I don't have a problem if the baby has no brain etc. and would not live or would be a 'vegetable'. I myself had amniocentesis for my second child so was prepared to abort if necessary.

Canada has no law whatsoever now on abortion, it was struck down and has never been legislated since. I must say, and no offense, I find the abortion and even birth control debates in the U.S. frightening, e.g. Ryan and the Senator who made the comments about 'legitimate rape'...
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