A woman has the right to choose...

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24Hours
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Post by 24Hours »

Re: A woman has the right to choose...



Irmin;685542 wrote: When to have sex. Not to kill her own baby. She made the choice when she spread her legs.


Well, that's true. A woman does have the right to choose when to have sex. A woman, or man, does not have the right to kill a baby. A woman does make a choice to risk pregnancy if she spreads her legs to have sex, just like a man does when he enters.



The real issue comes down to "how far back can you go until it is no longer so generally reasonable to call it her "baby."
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RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

24Hours;685768 wrote: This topic, like so many others, will always be rehashed as the laws or news reports change, new people arrive, etc. If you live on a site too much you start to get annoyed at it but that is more a deal in your head than a problem with posting. If you enter a forum on a given subject you should assume it will be rehashed - especially a topic as complicated and emotional as this one. The problem with this topic is that there is no right answer (in my opinion). Banning abortion as well as embracing it as a standard is inherently problematic on many levels.


Frank, I object to the way it was presented. When a woman chooses to "spread her legs" is her own business and getting an abortion should be as well. Not to mention we just had this same argument with the same people about two weeks ago. And we didn't reach a conclusion then either.

And who is anyone to decide when an abortion is acceptable? I keep hearing "if you're a rape victim or your health is in danger, then it's ok, but if you just wanted to have sex and you got pregnant, have the baby and face the consequences."

Nobody has the right to decide what one person does with their body even if that body is sustaining life for a body that cannot sustain life for itself. And kids should never be looked at as a consequence.
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Post by RedGlitter »

24Hours;685771 wrote: Re: A woman has the right to choose...





Well, that's true. A woman does have the right to choose when to have sex. A woman, or man, does not have the right to kill a baby.A woman does make a choice to risk pregnancy if she spreads her legs to have sex, just like a man does when he enters.



The real issue comes down to "how far back can you go until it is no longer so generally reasonable to call it her "baby."
As soon as it enters her body and starts becoming, it is hers. Period. Her baby, her fetus, her parasitic entity, whatever. Hers.
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Post by Carl44 »

RedGlitter;685778 wrote: As soon as it enters her body and starts becoming, it is hers. Period. Her baby, her fetus, her parasitic entity, whatever. Hers.




sooooo by your logic terri .



if i was to shake hands with someone like the queen and deftly took off a couple of her multi million pound diomond rings and swallowed them ,





does the fact that





a) its in my body make it mine noe even though it i did not own it before hand



b) even though it was not mine i did not own it and the owner would want it back



C) when nature took its course hopefully not 9 months and without a labour



would it still be all mine





if so cool :sneaky:



yes i'm being an ass but you see what your saying and i'm just making a stupid comparison :D
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Post by RedGlitter »

jimbo;685801 wrote: sooooo by your logic terri .



if i was to shake hands with someone like the queen and deftly took off a couple of her multi million pound diomond rings and swallowed them ,





does the fact that





a) its in my body make it mine noe even though it i did not own it before hand



b) even though it was not mine i did not own it and the owner would want it back



C) when nature took its course hopefully not 9 months and without a labour



would it still be all mine





if so cool :sneaky:



yes i'm being an ass but you see what your saying and i'm just making a stupid comparison :D


Nope, because there is no comparison. We're not talking diamonds off someone's hand; we're talking about something that's going to use the woman's body for sustainability. Hers only.
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Post by Carl44 »

RedGlitter;685803 wrote: Nope, because there is no comparison. We're not talking diamonds off someone's hand; we're talking about something that's going to use the woman's body for sustainability. Hers only.




:thinking:good point





but if i did that would the ring be mine :sneaky::sneaky:
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Post by RedGlitter »

jimbo;685812 wrote: :thinking:good point





but if i did that would the ring be mine :sneaky::sneaky:


No because it's a diamond ring and you stole it, it was not given to you. :sneaky:
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Post by neffy »

i have read this with alot of intrest,i think in this day and age there are no reasons for a women to get pregnant,with the pill and and with a wide range of sex education in shools now.

My mum had me a result of an affair and when she was cross with me she use to say god i wish i had an abortion,god that hurt and it has always stayed with me.

I think it realy is between the dad (if he has got a choice) the mum ans if it is something they feel is right then it is no elses business.I feel that to say about a women spreading her legs is a little old fashion thought and maybe should move to the 21 st century.

I no doubt would of been chained to buckinham place gates with the sufferjets as i am a firm beleiver that a women has a choice and how she uses her choice is uo to her.
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Post by littlemissgiggle »

You can have my diamond ring if you like :-3

might be a bit hard to swallow though :wah::sneaky:

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Post by buttercup »

Does anyone wonder if we know Irmin by another name? :sneaky:
RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

Actually my friend and I were discussing that same thing yesterday Buttercup.
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valerie
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Post by valerie »

Somebody needs to go back and get some sex education if they think

a man ejaculating outside the body will prevent pregnancy... plenty

enough sperm even just in pre-coital secretions to do the job.



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Post by koan »

The pregnancy I terminated occurred despite using condoms.

Birth control pills and, heaven forbid, the depo provera shots are making women severely ill. It is an unnatural state to keep a woman's body in and the results are only evident if you spend time in health food and natural medicine stores.

When I had my abortion I mentally prepared myself by telling myself all kinds of things but after I did it I was ill until I accepted that I had killed another human being and gave it a symbolic burial in which I asked forgiveness. The fetus most certainly is NOT the mother's property. The child I killed was not "mine", the child I am raising is not "mine". She is entirely a separate person.

I think it is important to keep abortion legal. Abortions will still happen whether they are legal or not. I do not, however, think that many women know what they are doing when they choose to abort and I do not think a father's rights should continue to be ignored.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Koan, you don't think many women know what they are doing when they abort? And what gives you this idea, this lack of faith in the intelligence of women?
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Post by pinkchick »

koan;685886 wrote: The pregnancy I terminated occurred despite using condoms.

Birth control pills and, heaven forbid, the depo provera shots are making women severely ill. It is an unnatural state to keep a woman's body in and the results are only evident if you spend time in health food and natural medicine stores.

When I had my abortion I mentally prepared myself by telling myself all kinds of things but after I did it I was ill until I accepted that I had killed another human being and gave it a symbolic burial in which I asked forgiveness. The fetus most certainly is NOT the mother's property. The child I killed was not "mine", the child I am raising is not "mine". She is entirely a separate person.

I think it is important to keep abortion legal. Abortions will still happen whether they are legal or not. I do not, however, think that many women know what they are doing when they choose to abort and I do not think a father's rights should continue to be ignored.


I'm sorry Koan but I don't agree with a point you just made......

How is that child not yours???:confused:
Very nearly perfect ... :D
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Post by koan »

RedGlitter;685888 wrote: And what gives you this idea, this lack of faith in the intelligence of women?


personal freakin' experience.

I am reasonably intelligent but from the moment I found out I was pregnant to the moment they sucked the fetus out of me I was in a purely emotional state and refused to think about it logically. I decided that I couldn't let the birth happen and I shut my mind to anything else.

pinkchick, I'm addressing this notion that another human being is property.
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Post by 24Hours »

RedGlitter;685777 wrote: Frank, I object to the way it was presented. When a woman chooses to "spread her legs" is her own business and getting an abortion should be as well.


Not necessarily. It is not a decision that should JUST be up to my wife, for example. Perhaps our view of marriage, life, and unity is different.
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Post by Irmin »

I am pro-circumstance. Aborting a prefectly healthy baby is just sick and evil. In some cases I advocate makign abortion compulsory, for example if the baby is serioulsy ill mentally or physically.

Our women should be allowed to have children wehnever they wish, not only when the Jewish bankers allow them to. No one benefits from the murdering of babies other than the Jew.
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Post by YZGI »

Irmin;685941 wrote: I am pro-circumstance. Aborting a prefectly healthy baby is just sick and evil. In some cases I advocate makign abortion compulsory, for example if the baby is serioulsy ill mentally or physically.



Our women should be allowed to have children wehnever they wish, not only when the Jewish bankers allow them to. No one benefits from the murdering of babies other than the Jew.
How do Jews benefit from abortion?
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Post by Irmin »

Because the Jewish media/bankers/politicians are telling our white women that it is more desirable in the modern materialistic society in which we live, that they pursue a career instaed of producing babies. It is only ever white females that have abortions, and a successful career is the sole reasoning behind it. They are targeting our people only.
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Post by valerie »

24Hours;685904 wrote: Not necessarily. It is not a decision that should JUST be up to my wife, for example. Perhaps our view of marriage, life, and unity is different.


In your case, you sound like you have a great relationship with your wife,

so great, you two decide together. I have no problem with that. I just

think it's better to let a woman decide what's right for her at the time.

No man could ever pay me enough to have his baby. It's not about money,

and in my opinion it shouldn't be. So, the man pays a woman x amount of

dollars and gets a baby? I believe we have laws against that! What about

this: man pays woman, woman dies in childbirth... man gets sued by

family for wrongful death? There's just no way a man can have the kind

of thing to go through that a woman would. A medically assisted early term

abortion is still safer than a full term pregnancy, at least last time I checked.



And I understand giving personal experience, but I don't think you can

extrapolate that out to cover many or even most other people. I've had

a friend who used abortion as a form of birth control. Very, very wrong.

But I also know someone who had ONE and is completely and utterly

comfortable in her decision.



SOME women might be made ill by birth control pills, I was on them for

30 some years and I'll put my health status up against anybody else.



Abortion should be available, and rare. (Yes I know someone else said it!)
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Post by YZGI »

Irmin;685943 wrote: Because the Jewish media/bankers/politicians are telling our white women that it is more desirable in the modern materialistic society in which we live, that they pursue a career instaed of producing babies. It is only ever white females that have abortions, and a successful career is the sole reasoning behind it. They are targeting our people only.
The numbers don't back you up.



http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm





In the 39 reporting areas for which race was provided classified according to the same categories used in previous years, approximately 54% of women who obtained legal induced abortions were known to be white, 36% black, and 8% other; for the other 2%, race was not known (Table 9). The abortion ratio for black women (491 per 1,000 live births) was 3.0 times the ratio for white women (165 per 1,000), and the ratio for women of the nonhomogenous "other" race category (376 per 1,000) was 2.3 times the ratio for white women. The abortion rate for black women (29 per 1,000 women) was 3.0 times the rate for white women (10 per 1,000) whereas the abortion rate for women of other races (21 per 1,000 women) was 2.1 times the rate for white women.
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Post by 24Hours »

valerie;685944 wrote: In your case, you sound like you have a great relationship with your wife,

so great, you two decide together. I have no problem with that. I just

think it's better to let a woman decide what's right for her at the time.

No man could ever pay me enough to have his baby. It's not about money,

and in my opinion it shouldn't be. So, the man pays a woman x amount of

dollars and gets a baby? I believe we have laws against that! What about

this: man pays woman, woman dies in childbirth... man gets sued by

family for wrongful death? There's just no way a man can have the kind

of thing to go through that a woman would. A medically assisted early term

abortion is still safer than a full term pregnancy, at least last time I checked.



And I understand giving personal experience, but I don't think you can

extrapolate that out to cover many or even most other people. I've had

a friend who used abortion as a form of birth control. Very, very wrong.

But I also know someone who had ONE and is completely and utterly

comfortable in her decision.



SOME women might be made ill by birth control pills, I was on them for

30 some years and I'll put my health status up against anybody else.



Abortion should be available, and rare. (Yes I know someone else said it!)


I hear all that. I think Irmin hit a bell when he said that he is pro-circumstance because I think ANOTHER layer of complication here is that, like many other laws or standards, one size does not fit all. But since it is so personal, we feel that it is wrong to just say "too bad" to the ones that are not quite fitting. It's not as big of a deal when it is about a traffic law or taxes, but about a tiny life and/or your own body, and it becomes way too personal, offensive, and unacceptable.



I think this will always be a delicate and disturbing balancing act that won't be resolved until we can totally control pregnancy better. That's going "against nature" big time so that can brings dangers or problems on its own ... but I don't see another solution unless you can magically make everyone get real traditional and religious all of a sudden. :lips:
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Post by abbey »

Irmin;685941 wrote: I am pro-circumstance. Aborting a prefectly healthy baby is just sick and evil. In some cases I advocate makign abortion compulsory, for example if the baby is serioulsy ill mentally or physically.



Our women should be allowed to have children wehnever they wish, not only when the Jewish bankers allow them to. No one benefits from the murdering of babies other than the Jew.What a load of crap!

You are a racist & a bigot.
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Post by 911 »

I am pro choice. That does not mean pro abortion or anti abortion. It means it someones choice.

If a woman is forced, by law, to have a child she does not want, then the law must protect her.

It must protect the child and check on it all during it's life with it's new parents.

It must protect her from death during pregnancy and childbirth. It must protect her from that inevitable knock at the door in 18 years. It must protect her from the father and the fathers parents if she so chooses. It must send her for mental health if necessary. If the government is going to take abortion off the table then it has to step up it's responsibility for the child and the mother.

The mother will have to live with her choice either way, abortion or birth or adoption, whichever her choice is. She, as Koan did, must take care of herself if it is left up to her to decide.

If she chooses to have the baby and the father does not, then he must sign away his parental rights and she has the right to say he is dead or a reason that she is comfortable with. No money should be involved.

If she chooses to have the baby and give it to the father, she must sign away her rights and he has the right to say she is dead or a reason he is comfortable with. No money should be involved.

My personal opinion is that no man has the right to force a woman to have a child, be it his or anyone elses. The changes a woman goes through all her life getting her body ready for procreation, the pregnancy and the birth, and the aftereffects of that birth, no man can fathom. If a man can force a woman to give birth then a woman should be able to force a man to be snipped.

Perhaps the government should step in after a man has had three children by different mothers. Tell him it's time to keep it covered and not with latex. :D He should be tattooed with a picture of small scissors on his penis to let all women know that the government has deemed him incapable of control. And then and only after say, five years of marriage, can he have it reversed in order to have children. Reckon how many senators would go for that law? :-5

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Post by littlemissgiggle »

Yes I agree that for different reasons these choices be made.

and that these choices are very difficult.

I remember everything about the abortion I had and the date I had it on,

if i did have the child then it would be 6 years old now. :-3

I often think what if we had kept it, what it would be like and the colour of there eyes.

did me and my partner make the wrong decision :confused:

at the time it was the right decision as I was 16 and yes i think how selfish of me.
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Post by 24Hours »

It might be, more often than not, a matter of which alternative is worse ... not that abortion is OK. In other words, the aborting can be wrong but one just felt the alternative was worse.
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Post by weeder »

I feel confident in stating that a union culminating in pregnancy where the phrases

" Spread her legs" or " Got her pregnant are acceptable ( degrading and ignorant)

ways to describe the resulting "problem"..... are situations where a discussion regarding " What do we do with IT?' or who has the right to decide what to do.... would come into play. Loving, intelligent, committed humans who were involved in a sexual situation that resulted in a pregnancy, were aware of the possible consequences of a physical union, and are well aware of their female partners right to choose. As far as not breaking forum rules when responding to a deliberately antagonistic, bigoted, and seemingly hate riddled poster...... when any mention of degregation regarding women.... or the advocation of compulsary abortion is made....... To reply at all, is willful bating of a mind so far off track that nothing short of long term incarceration, isolated from society would have any chance of salvaging any glimmer of decency that might remain.
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Post by el guapo »

Irmin;685941 wrote: I am pro-circumstance. Aborting a prefectly healthy baby is just sick and evil. In some cases I advocate makign abortion compulsory, for example if the baby is serioulsy ill mentally or physically.

Our women should be allowed to have children wehnever they wish, not only when the Jewish bankers allow them to. No one benefits from the murdering of babies other than the Jew.


so ya saying any child with disabilty shoud not be allowed to live



man you be strange
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Post by Kathy Ellen »

Beautifully said Weeder. As always, put a great deal of thought into your words and thoughts. And, I agree with you......Thank you.:-6
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Post by pinkchick »

el guapo;686221 wrote: so ya saying any child with disabilty shoud not be allowed to live



man you be strange


You took the words out of my mouth Guapo!!

I sincerely hope that that's not actually what Irmin is getting at...:-3

Irmin - perhaps ypu'd be good enough to clarify...??
Very nearly perfect ... :D
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Post by kazalala »

abbey;685952 wrote: What a load of crap!

You are a racist & a bigot.


:yh_clap:yh_clap Well said Abbey, i myself am totally gobsmacked:-2




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el guapo
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Post by el guapo »

Irmin;685941 wrote: I am pro-circumstance. Aborting a prefectly healthy baby is just sick and evil. In some cases I advocate makign abortion compulsory, for example if the baby is serioulsy ill mentally or physically.


think he has made him self clear

imo this is an evil twisted racist point of veiw

i am not well like here ,,,,,,,,,,you are heading to be hated
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valerie
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Post by valerie »

weeder;686140 wrote: I feel confident in stating that a union culminating in pregnancy where the phrases

" Spread her legs" or " Got her pregnant are acceptable ( degrading and ignorant)

ways to describe the resulting "problem"..... are situations where a discussion regarding " What do we do with IT?' or who has the right to decide what to do.... would come into play. Loving, intelligent, committed humans who were involved in a sexual situation that resulted in a pregnancy, were aware of the possible consequences of a physical union, and are well aware of their female partners right to choose. As far as not breaking forum rules when responding to a deliberately antagonistic, bigoted, and seemingly hate riddled poster...... when any mention of degregation regarding women.... or the advocation of compulsary abortion is made....... To reply at all, is willful bating of a mind so far off track that nothing short of long term incarceration, isolated from society would have any chance of salvaging any glimmer of decency that might remain.


Just to let you know, El Guapo and I are cool. I understand what you are

saying but still stand by my position on violating the rules. I went

through most of the OP's posts and have a MUCH better understanding

of WHY El G would react in the way he did.



After all, one could think that your reply is a form of bating, too, as is any

in this thread, really. Asking him to CLARIFY? Hoo boy.



The hate mongering and inciting are what bother me personally more.

Stuff like that left around is not good, IMO. Like breeds like and there

are those who prowl the internet looking at trigger words and I

would just betcha "Jews" is one of them.
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Post by Irmin »

You don't have to repsond then, do you Weeder boy? If you cannot see the barbaric sickness, evil and utter injustice of hunderds of thousands of healthy unborn babies murdered every year then it is you with a mind far off track. Come back after you've had a fix or something.
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Post by el guapo »

Irmin;686259 wrote: You don't have to repsond then, do you Weeder boy? If you cannot see the barbaric sickness, evil and utter injustice of hunderds of thousands of healthy unborn babies murdered every year then it is you with a mind far off track. Come back after you've had a fix or something.


ok henry
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Post by Irmin »

Why do you keep sending private messages to me El Gaupo? If you have something to say to me, say it out in the open.
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Post by el guapo »

Irmin;686262 wrote: Why do you keep sending private messages to me El Gaupo? If you have something to say to me, say it out in the open.


only asked if ya name was henry by any chance
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Post by Irmin »

pinkchick;686229 wrote: Irmin - perhaps ypu'd be good enough to clarify...??


It is inhumane to bring somoene into this world who will suffer a poor quality of life and forever be disadvantaged. Why put them through that? If that be the case, then we shuold free them from material life.
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Post by el guapo »

Irmin;686266 wrote: It is inhumane to bring somoene into this world who will suffer a poor quality of life and forever be disadvantaged. Why put them through that? If that be the case, then we shuold free them from material life.


is there no depthes you will sink too
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Post by koan »

actually, my older brother and his fiance were told their first child was going to be "best case scenario Down's Syndrome" and the doctor suggested they think about whether or not to abort. They decided to go ahead since they were both trained as social workers. Their daughter turned out perfectly healthy but... it's not "inhumane" to abort an unhealthy fetus if doctors are recommending it, is it?

Good thing they didn't abort but people do it all the time for that exact reason... at the advice of physicians.
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el guapo
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Post by el guapo »

koan;686297 wrote: actually, my older brother and his fiance were told their first child was going to be "best case scenario Down's Syndrome" and the doctor suggested they think about whether or not to abort. They decided to go ahead since they were both trained as social workers. Their daughter turned out perfectly healthy but... it's not "inhumane" to abort an unhealthy fetus if doctors are recommending it, is it?

Good thing they didn't abort but people do it all the time for that exact reason... at the advice of physicians.


but irmin said it should be compulsary
"To be foolish and to recognize that one is foolish, is better than to be foolish and imagine that one is wise."
RedGlitter
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A woman has the right to choose...

Post by RedGlitter »

Why is anyone listening to Irmin? Can't you see this is all about the Jews?! :thinking: :wah:
koan
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A woman has the right to choose...

Post by koan »

That's a good question. why is anyone listening to Irmin. This thread, to me, has never been about supporting or opposing Irmin. To me this thread is a place to dump my thoughts on abortion.

When people try to troll the board, the best thing to do is actually turn their thread into an interesting discussion.
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SuzyB
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A woman has the right to choose...

Post by SuzyB »

Irmin;685542 wrote: When to have sex. Not to kill her own baby. She made the choice when she spread her legs.


A woman should have the right to choose but sometimes that isn't the case. Contraception is not fool proof, so the only option would be to never have sex, a bit unrealistic for the woman and her partner!



Irmin;685943 wrote: Because the Jewish media/bankers/politicians are telling our white women that it is more desirable in the modern materialistic society in which we live, that they pursue a career instaed of producing babies. It is only ever white females that have abortions, and a successful career is the sole reasoning behind it. They are targeting our people only.


That is a ridiculous statement, many woman that have a child also have a successful career. I have known many people that have had a termination and only 2 of them was white.

Irmin;686266 wrote: It is inhumane to bring somoene into this world who will suffer a poor quality of life and forever be disadvantaged. Why put them through that? If that be the case, then we shuold free them from material life.


I agree that sometimes we should nature take it's course with people that have no quality of life, the problem is who is the judge and jury to decide if a life is worth living? My sister in laws sister has a severely disabled boy, but he has come on leaps and bounds, they said that he would live life in a vegetable state, he talks and recognizes people, goes to a special needs school, he laughs and smiles, it makes me feel quite sick what could of happened if he was never given a chance.
I am nobody..nobody is perfect...therefore I must be Perfect!





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24Hours
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A woman has the right to choose...

Post by 24Hours »

el guapo;686268 wrote: is there no depthes you will sink too


What he said is a great example of how morals can be relative - based upon the society you are in at that point and time. Ever see the movie 300, based upon the real history of the Spartans? They threw babies with any defects over the cliff, to spend their resources on only the best specimens as they train for protection and battle. This was not only moral to them, it was necessary to protect their interests long-term and be so good at fighting.

Just sayin', not suggesting that be done today.
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el guapo
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A woman has the right to choose...

Post by el guapo »

SuzyB;686313 wrote: A woman should have the right to choose but sometimes that isn't the case. Contraception is not fool proof, so the only option would be to never have sex, a bit unrealistic for the woman and her partner!





That is a ridiculous statement, many woman that have a child also have a successful career. I have known many people that have had a termination and only 2 of them was white.





I agree that sometimes we should nature take it's course with people that have no quality of life, the problem is who is the judge and jury to decide if a life is worth living? My sister in laws sister has a severely disabled boy, but he has come on leaps and bounds, they said that he would live life in a vegetable state, he talks and recognizes people, goes to a special needs school, he laughs and smiles, it makes me feel quite sick what could of happened if he was never given a chance.


well said
"To be foolish and to recognize that one is foolish, is better than to be foolish and imagine that one is wise."
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el guapo
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A woman has the right to choose...

Post by el guapo »

24Hours;686314 wrote: What he said is a great example of how morals can be relative - based upon the society you are in at that point and time. Ever see the movie 300, based upon the real history of the Spartans? They threw babies with any defects over the cliff, to spend their resources on only the best specimens as they train for protection and battle. This was not only moral to them, it was necessary to protect their interests long-term and be so good at fighting.

Just sayin', not suggesting that be done today.


but imo it was not ment that way read the authors post history
"To be foolish and to recognize that one is foolish, is better than to be foolish and imagine that one is wise."
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24Hours
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A woman has the right to choose...

Post by 24Hours »

el guapo;686316 wrote: but imo it was not ment that way read the authors post history


I don't get too caught up in other poster's past history, can't help ya there.
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