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Post by spot »

William Ess;459735 wrote: It is as well to be specific unless there is a good reason not to be. As for Hong Kong; Britain wanted to honour an obligation, the locals did not want that obligation honoured, Red China, of course, did but took great care not to absorb it politically into the mainland.
Bravo, William. Now you can go back and give counter-examples relating to "there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries".
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Post by Accountable »

William Ess;458884 wrote: [...]

I formed a strong affection for Africans, Indians and Malays; made many friends and, I think, no enemies.

Based on your posts, I don't think you'd notice or care if you had.
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Post by William Ess »

Accountable;459743 wrote: Based on your posts, I don't think you'd notice or care if you had.



I won't dignify your silliness with a reply except to remark that your presence is one of the reasons why so few people of education take part in these debates.
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Post by gmc »

William Ess;459860 wrote: I won't dignify your silliness with a reply except to remark that your presence is one of the reasons why so few people of education take part in these debates.



Actually you are very wrong there. It's a common ploy of the pseudo intellectual to avoid debate with those they disagree by claiming the proponent of the counter arguement to be unworthy of their attention. It's hard to debate when you come out with an opinion and when challenged are unable, or being charitable, unwilling, to back up your opinion with any any kind of factual arguement. If you claim superior knowledge then prove it.

for example

Quote:

Originally Posted by spot View Post

You don't perhaps wonder, then, why there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries?

That is just it. There was very little support for such movements.




Come on then enlighten us all.

If you are not prepared to have your opinion challenged and prefer not to discourse with those you consider your educational inferior what are you doing on a discussion forum of this nature?

I don't care what education level you may or may not have attained. I don't know or care about accountables spots or any other poster's education. It doesn't make their opinions any more or less of interest. If you disagree with that last statement then it is your loss.
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Post by YZGI »

William Ess;459295 wrote: I think the British have far more to be proud than ashamed of; the colonial system was certainly a civilising and stabilising influence. If you want an example of what happened when we pulled out, you need look no further than America where all the agreements with the Red Indians were peremptorily scrapped and slavery, which we abolished in 1830, was effectively continued for another 130 years.

As for India, the greatest mistake we made was not to have hanged Gandhi.

Am I reading this correctly? You are saying the US had slavery up until 1960? I believe we had a civil war that although maybe not immediately but effectively abolished slavery In 1865. I understand that the British may have abolished slavery 35 years earlier which is great but in the grand scheme of things just a drop in the bucket in terms of time.
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Post by William Ess »

ArnoldLayne;459865 wrote: And of course only the opinion of the select few is of any importance. My education never took me to within a hundred miles of the great halls of Oxbridge but that never stopped my feeble attempts at voicing my opinion, even when it is ignored by some.



It is informed opinion that matters.
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Post by William Ess »

YZGI;459910 wrote: Am I reading this correctly? You are saying the US had slavery up until 1960? I believe we had a civil war that although maybe not immediately but effectively abolished slavery In 1865. I understand that the British may have abolished slavery 35 years earlier which is great but in the grand scheme of things just a drop in the bucket in terms of time.



I have in my possession an American Railway Timetable which makes unashamed references to white and negro waiting rooms and accomodation in trains. The date? 1963.

The point is that the United States could, had they had the will, have jumped on the abolishionist bandwagon in 1830 (or even before) and thereby have given considerable impetus to the movement. The fact it did not is a matter of history and although slavery was given as one of the factors that contributed to the civil war, the amancipation was very largely nominal, especially in the south.

I have difficulty in regarding the abolition of slavery over the proportion of the globe that we governed as being a drop in the bucket.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;459965 wrote: It is informed opinion that matters.
You don't feel that "informed" in this context at least implies a factual underpinning to the opinion? And that the facts should be capable of production when the opinion is challenged?
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Post by William Ess »

ArnoldLayne;460010 wrote: Conversation, even of emotive or controversial subjects can be conducted from a level platform.



I am afraid that is not so. A debate worthy of the name can only be conducted between individuals who share a common level of knowledge about the subject in question. The historians Taylor and Hobsbawn, for example, had very different views of how history should be interpreted but neither needed lessons on the basics of the matter.

Not infrequently I am drawn into discussions on subjects of which I know little or nothing. Several options are open to me.

1. To recognise I know nothing of the topic and keep quiet

2. Go and learn something of the subject before giving an opinion.

3. Use the debate to learn something.

It is usually convenient to adopt option 3.
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Post by spot »

I do wish people would stop refering to this as a debate. It's at best a discussion. A debate has a fixed form, regardless of the medium it's conducted in. It has a fixed space with a defined conclusion.
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Post by YZGI »

William Ess;459974 wrote: I have in my possession an American Railway Timetable which makes unashamed references to white and negro waiting rooms and accomodation in trains. The date? 1963.

The point is that the United States could, had they had the will, have jumped on the abolishionist bandwagon in 1830 (or even before) and thereby have given considerable impetus to the movement. The fact it did not is a matter of history and although slavery was given as one of the factors that contributed to the civil war, the amancipation was very largely nominal, especially in the south.

I have difficulty in regarding the abolition of slavery over the proportion of the globe that we governed as being a drop in the bucket.

So now you equate segregation with slavery. I agree segregation in itself is abominable but to say it is slavery is the same. You don't own segregated people you just seperate them. I was referring to the time table on your abolition not the square miles of it.
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Post by YZGI »

Alos William, I do agree that slavery was a small part of the civil war. In fact I believe that Lincoln actually used it as a tool to win the war not a policy per se.
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Post by William Ess »

ArnoldLayne;460069 wrote: Or maybe just be seen and not heard, like the children of my parents generation



I don't want to seem unreasonably pedantic but the children of your parent's generation includes you.
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Post by William Ess »

YZGI;460099 wrote: So now you equate segregation with slavery. I agree segregation in itself is abominable but to say it is slavery is the same. You don't own segregated people you just seperate them. I was referring to the time table on your abolition not the square miles of it.



If the American method of segregation was not slavery, it was a very close relative and certainly there was nothing in the British colonial system that could compare with it in terms of vicious discrimination.

If I had been the architect of American society, I would probably have created a sizeable state within a state - Georgia and Louisiana possibly - and given it, lock, stock and barrel, to the Negro people. That at least would have been a meaningful reparation.

The unpleasant truth is that the American Negro has a far stronger claim to America than many of the whites. The majority of the latter arrived much more recently and if the Negro's did not play a full role in the development of America, it was largely because they were prevented from doing so.
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Post by William Ess »

ArnoldLayne;460119 wrote: Exactly William, I tired from an early age of that little epithet "Children should be seen and not heard"




Speaking as a parent (and Grandparent), I am a strong advocate of 'seen and not heard'.
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Post by YZGI »

The unpleasant truth is that the American Negro has a far stronger claim to America than many of the whites.

I dont understand this. In what way? Why?
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Post by William Ess »

YZGI;460160 wrote: The unpleasant truth is that the American Negro has a far stronger claim to America than many of the whites.

I dont understand this. In what way? Why?



On the basis that the American Negro was present in America far earlier than many of the White settlers yet was denied any major role in the development of the country.
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Post by YZGI »

William Ess;460171 wrote: On the basis that the American Negro was present in America far earlier than many of the White settlers yet was denied any major role in the development of the country.

So were Mexicans and Indians. The whites happened to be in power at the time. I have yet to see any ethnic group in power give up that power without a fight. The British would have liked that the Irish and the Scottish not have any say either but they fought and won some power so now they have some say. Its just how it works.
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Post by YZGI »

Sorry I just realized this thread has been hijacked. If I feel anymore needs to be said on this I will start another thread. Again sorry.
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Post by William Ess »

YZGI;460175 wrote: The British would have liked that the Irish and the Scottish not have any say either but they fought and won some power so now they have some say. .



How on earth do you arrive at this wonderful conclusion?
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Post by YZGI »

William Ess;460189 wrote: How on earth do you arrive at this wonderful conclusion?

Not really a conclusion but a sideline view from what little history that I have read or seen on the subject.



On another note, Women (until just recently, 1920) were also not allowed in the development of the US.
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Post by gmc »

William Ess;459965 wrote: It is informed opinion that matters.



Bollocks to that. We live in a democracy for the simple reason that the British people have always had a strong tendency to say bollocks to those who would rule and would have it that only their opinions matter in the great scheme of things..

There is a difference between informed opinion and being opinionated.

I am afraid that is not so. A debate worthy of the name can only be conducted between individuals who share a common level of knowledge about the subject in question. The historians Taylor and Hobsbawn, for example, had very different views of how history should be interpreted but neither needed lessons on the basics of the matter.

Not infrequently I am drawn into discussions on subjects of which I know little or nothing. Several options are open to me.

1. To recognise I know nothing of the topic and keep quiet

2. Go and learn something of the subject before giving an opinion.

3. Use the debate to learn something.

It is usually convenient to adopt option




So far you are not doing a great deal to indicate your level of knowledge merely offering opinion and dodging when challenged.

I have difficulty in regarding the abolition of slavery over the proportion of the globe that we governed as being a drop in the bucket.






You seem to forget the part played by Britain in turning the negro slave trade in to a global business in the first place and in the wonderfully hypocritical justification of it all being the white man's burden and the corruption of christian teachings to find a moral justification for it all in the form of the moral and racial superiority of the white races put on earth to dominate.

.

Slavery was finally ended in 1833 (although in reality it continued under the auspices of the apprenticeship scheme until 1838 ) not so much because of moral outrage among our leaders but because the decline of the economic importance of sugar cane meant the sugar barons hadn't the funds to bribe enough MP's. When it came to supressing slave rebellions the British could have given anyone lessons in brutality. The moral outrage of most of the british people at the institution of slavery was as nothing when it came down to profit.

You may want to argue that colonialism was good for the fuzzy wuzzies but it is equally true that the consequences of colonialism were devastating for those native peoples that had the misfortune to be too weak to stand up to the industrialised powers. It wasn't moral superiority or superior race that built empires it was technological advantage and the ruthless nature to use it to impose your will on others.

Post ww2 most the British people turned their backs on those who would hang on to empire and lament the loss of past glory. Yes there is much to be proud of and there is also much that is to our shame and many at the time thought so as well. The simple fact is we built an empire because we could and when it really comes right down to it europeans are possibly the most aggressive people on the planet.
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Post by yorkster »

"You may want to argue that colonialism was good for the fuzzy wuzzies but it is equally true that the consequences of colonialism were devastating for those native peoples that had the misfortune to be too weak to stand up to the industrialised powers. It wasn't moral superiority or superior race that built empires it was technological advantage and the ruthless nature to use it to impose your will on others.

Post ww2 most the British people turned their backs on those who would hang on to empire and lament the loss of past glory. Yes there is much to be proud of and there is also much that is to our shame and many at the time thought so as well. The simple fact is we built an empire because we could and when it really comes right down to it europeans are possibly the most aggressive people on the planet."

Well to this uneducated untutored Yorkshireman the above seems pretty fair comment The only thing I would disagree on is the point about Europeans being the most aggresive people on the planet. I suspect if other races had been as "technologically advancesd & moraly superior" It would infact have been Europe which was colonised & exploited.
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Post by Accountable »

William Ess;459860 wrote: I won't dignify your silliness with a reply except to remark that your presence is one of the reasons why so few people of education take part in these debates.

Actually, your presence is the primary reason why an educated man such as I would rather be silly than feed your overlarge and bigoted ego.
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Post by spot »

Accountable;460691 wrote: Actually, your presence is the primary reason why an educated man such as I would rather be silly than feed your overlarge and bigoted ego.
And very good you are at it too - an honorary doctorate in silliness doubtless awaits you in years to come. I'm here, uneducated lout or not, regardless of William's unpleasant ways. Fortunately he confines himself to those few threads which allow him implicit room for his spavined hobby-horses.

William, if you've finished throwing sand into our eyes for the time being, can you go back and give counter-examples relating to "there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries" please? The proportion of evidence you've advanced, compared to opinionated swarf, has been minimal to date.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;460902 wrote: .............regardless of William's unpleasant ways. .



I have been unable to maintain the debate due to my having been away for a few days but before I do perhaps you could enlarge upon the libel given above. What are these unpleasant ways?
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Post by spot »

William Ess;462883 wrote: I have been unable to maintain the debate due to my having been away for a few days but before I do perhaps you could enlarge upon the libel given above. What are these unpleasant ways?
Kicking sand and sidestepping questions you prefer not to address rank high among them. As in:William, if you've finished throwing sand into our eyes for the time being, can you go back and give counter-examples relating to "there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries" please? The proportion of evidence you've advanced, compared to opinionated swarf, has been minimal to date.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;462886 wrote: Kicking sand and sidestepping questions you prefer not to address rank high among them. As in:William, if you've finished throwing sand into our eyes for the time being, can you go back and give counter-examples relating to "there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries" please? The proportion of evidence you've advanced, compared to opinionated swarf, has been minimal to date.



I will address that point and any others once the libel has been removed and replaced by a more appropriate description. 'Kicking sand' is not an expression I have come across in civilised debate or discussion; am I to presume you mean obfuscation?
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Post by spot »

William Ess;462889 wrote: I will address that point and any others once the libel has been removed and replaced by a more appropriate description. 'Kicking sand' is not an expression I have come across in civilised debate or discussion; am I to presume you mean obfuscation?
"obfuscation" doesn't quite convey your bullying style at all. I prefer the "kicking sand" analogy, myself. I'm not interested in either placating you or soothing your simulation of ruffled feathers. And stop calling a discussion a debate, while you're at it.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;462891 wrote: "obfuscation" doesn't quite convey your bullying style at all. I prefer the "kicking sand" analogy, myself. I'm not interested in either placating you or soothing your simulation of ruffled feathers. And stop calling a discussion a debate, while you're at it.



I will discuss/debate any subject under the sun provided I am qualified to do so and I am both ready and willing to allow my opponent to convert me to his point of view through the strength of his argument and power of argument. What I won't tolerate is boorish ill-manners and this debate (sic) therefore will have to continue without me.

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Post by spot »

William Ess;462894 wrote: I will discuss/debate any subject under the sun provided I am qualified to do so and I am both ready and willing to allow my opponent to convert me to his point of view through the strength of his argument and power of argument. What I won't tolerate is boorish ill-manners and this debate (sic) therefore will have to continue without me.

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Post by Accountable »

William Ess;462894 wrote: I will discuss/debate any subject under the sun provided I am qualified to do so and I am both ready and willing to allow my opponent to convert me to his point of view through the strength of his argument and power of argument. What I won't tolerate is boorish ill-manners and this debate (sic) therefore will have to continue without me.

W. E (Dr)

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Post by koan »

When I first spied the title of this thread I assumed that it was about crimes of intolerance committed against immigrants and/or minorities. My initial assumption ended up being an accurate description of the content. Kudos to spot and the others who managed to successfully point this out.
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Post by yorkster »

koan;463390 wrote: When I first spied the title of this thread I assumed that it was about crimes of intolerance committed against immigrants and/or minorities. My initial assumption ended up being an accurate description of the content. Kudos to spot and the others who managed to successfully point this out.



Quite wrong. This thread has actually turned into a thread about intolerance full stop. I note with interest you & others have quoted Ghandi. I am not the most learned of people but I am aware of the fact that Ghandi strived to understand those who disagreed with him. it seems you have a one sided view as to what intolerance is. "Intolerance" is in fact a word which has been hijacked by white middle class liberals
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Post by koan »

yorkster;464448 wrote: "Intolerance" is in fact a word which has been hijacked by white middle class liberals



Surely you can't mean me. I'm an immigrant.
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Post by yorkster »

koan;464472 wrote: Surely you can't mean me. I'm an immigrant.



I've met many intolerant immigrants.
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Post by koan »

yorkster;464475 wrote: I've met many intolerant immigrants.



So I'm an immigrant intolerant of intolerance.
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Post by koan »

Why do I feel like I'm in a Samuel Beckett play?
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Post by yorkster »

[QUOTE=yorkster;464475]I've met many intolerant immigrants.[/QUO

What i find most interesting about people who preach tolerance is, the remarkable intolerance they demonstrate to any who dare to disagree with them.
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Post by koan »

VLADIMIR:

And they didn't beat you?

ESTRAGON:

Beat me? Certainly they beat me.

VLADIMIR:

The same lot as usual?

ESTRAGON:

The same? I don't know.

VLADIMIR:

When I think of it . . . all these years . . . but for me . . . where would you be . . . (Decisively.) You'd be nothing more than a little heap of bones at the present minute, no doubt about it.

ESTRAGON:

And what of it?

VLADIMIR:

(gloomily). It's too much for one man. (Pause. Cheerfully.) On the other hand what's the good of losing heart now, that's what I say. We should have thought of it a million years ago, in the nineties.
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Post by yorkster »

koan;464482 wrote: Why do I feel like I'm in a Samuel Beckett play?



who's Samuel beckett?
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Post by koan »

Don't tell me you can't use google
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Post by yorkster »

koan;464485 wrote: VLADIMIR:

And they didn't beat you?

ESTRAGON:

Beat me? Certainly they beat me.

VLADIMIR:

The same lot as usual?

ESTRAGON:

The same? I don't know.

VLADIMIR:

When I think of it . . . all these years . . . but for me . . . where would you be . . . (Decisively.) You'd be nothing more than a little heap of bones at the present minute, no doubt about it.

ESTRAGON:

And what of it?

VLADIMIR:

(gloomily). It's too much for one man. (Pause. Cheerfully.) On the other hand what's the good of losing heart now, that's what I say. We should have thought of it a million years ago, in the nineties.



interesing but could you explain wht it means?
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Post by koan »

VLADIMIR:

There's man all over for you, blaming on his boots the faults of his feet.
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Post by koan »

Samuel Barclay Beckett (13 April 1906 – 22 December 1989) was an Irish dramatist, novelist and poet. Beckett's work is stark, fundamentally minimalist, and, according to some interpretations, deeply pessimistic about the human condition. The perceived pessimism is mitigated both by a great and often wicked sense of humour, and by the sense, for some readers, that Beckett's portrayal of life's obstacles serves to demonstrate that the journey, while difficult, is ultimately worth the effort. Similarly, many posit that Beckett's expressed "pessimism" is not so much for the human condition but for that of an established cultural and societal structure which imposes its stultifying will upon otherwise hopeful individuals; it is the inherent optimism of the human condition, therefore, that is at tension with the oppressive world. His later work explores his themes in an increasingly cryptic and attenuated style. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1969 "for his writing, which—in new forms for the novel and drama—in the destitution of modern man acquires its elevation". Beckett was elected Saoi of Aosdána in 1984.



What I'm quoting is from "Waiting for Godot" and the bio is the first result in a google search of his name. You could have done that part yourself and appeared much wiser than you are.
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Post by yorkster »

[QUOTE=koan;464492]Don't tell me you can't use google

I have no need to use google in this situation.

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