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William Ess
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Post by William Ess »

Scrat;458516 wrote: What's the difference between naked savages and the ones that wore clothes?



If I took the trouble to tell you, I doubt if you would understand. For the best part of a thousand years, in Britain (and to a lesser extent much of Europe) the majority of people have been able to live their lives in peace, protected by the rule of law and, if their abilities allowed and fortune smiled, to prosper materially and better their station in life. So far as the execution of law is concerned, you are apparently unaware that the torture of suspects had been prohibited by the sixteenth century.

I doubt if many people, given the choice of going back 300 years to become either an English artisan or an African savage, would choose the latter.
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Post by spot »

Where do you get your "knowledge" of the state of - since you've raised them as an example - these "primitive" Zulus? The reports of the European missionaries and explorers of the 18th and 19th centuries, I'd say. Did those reporters have a vested interest in biasing their reports to stir indignation and a will to intervene among their own leaders and populations back home? You can bet your bippy they did.

The parallel with current media-led Western popular perception of Iraq, Iran, Syria (to name a few bogeys) is all to obvious. "murdering their own people in their hundreds by a means so slow, painful and savage that I will not describe it" is exactly what you'd expect to hear from the vanguard of the Empire.

As for the idyllic "majority of people have been able to live their lives in peace, protected by the rule of law and, if their abilities allowed and fortune smiled, to prosper materially and better their station in life", I'd dispute your assessment. Which golden age are you describing? It might cover the condition of the upper classes of Jane Austen's time but it's a long way from either "the majority of the people" or "or the best part of a thousand years". As a picture of the Highland Clearances, to name but one period, it sucks.

If you took the trouble to tell us, we'd be surprised that you'd finally avoided biased generality and done some work toward the thread yourself.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;458659 wrote: Where do you get your "knowledge" of the state of - since you've raised them as an example - these "primitive" Zulus? .



Apart from myriad reports that had no reason to be biased, I saw it for myself - and that was only sixty years ago. In the time that we had advanced in every direction imaginable and had gained a position where the great majority of people in the United Kingdom had food, shelter and warmth (together with the other accessories that put the icing on the cake of civilisation), the savages of Africa, India and the equatorial Far East had scarcely advanced a jot since the moment of creation. In fact the only Africans, Malayans (etc) who had improved their general standard of living had done so by following our example.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;458663 wrote: Apart from myriad reports that had no reason to be biased, I saw it for myself - and that was only sixty years ago.
At last, the lightbulb goes on. Finally I understand.

As an unofficial spokesman for the British Government, William, I belatedly offer an apology for what you were put through. I had no idea you were one of the victims.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;458665 wrote: At last, the lightbulb goes on. Finally I understand.

As an unofficial spokesman for the British Government, William, I belatedly offer an apology for what you were put through. I had no idea you were one of the victims.



You most certainly do not understand and, frankly, I wonder what you are capable of understanding. I was not employed in any government capacity and I imagine even you are capable of understanding that the act of witnessing is not to condone.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;458666 wrote: You most certainly do not understand and, frankly, I wonder what you are capable of understanding. I was not employed in any government capacity and I imagine even you are capable of understanding that the act of witnessing is not to condone.
I had taken you to mean you were one of the many expatriate children obliged to return to the homeland by reason of national independence when the Union Flag was finally lowered, William, not that you were a government employee.
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Post by gmc »

twizzel;458337 wrote: Queen Elizabeth can trace her ancestry to Ethalred the unready I think that makes her English can you say the same or are you a more recent import.



I'm not english but rather part of one of those other tribes that invaded briton after the romans left or are you going to claim those of saxon, danish, norman gaelic descent have no claim to be british either. Even in ethelreds time britain was a multicultural society, ethelred was merely head one of the stronger tribes at the time. As it happens i can trace my descent way back my wife has an ancestor that came across with william the bastard so touch your forelock peasant.

posted by yorkster

I am seriously against a multi-culteral Britain but I am not against a multi-racial Britain. i have never tried to court the interest of PC types i find them too naive to take seriously. i also find their vain attempts to hold the moral high ground laughale. I have never represented any minority I leave that type of thing to PC do gooders, I have heard it gives them meaning in their lives




You're way too late to worry about it. Britain has been a multicultural society since time immemorial. just look at the faces around you and you can see all the different tribes people have come from.

william ess

If you really believe that the Royal Family have engaged in theft, then you have a duty to bring it to the attention of the authorities.




One of the chracteristics of our multi cultural society is that the descendants of the medeival warlords who took over the country have managed to convince us all they are entitled to keep it. If you don't understand that and think that a few people owning all the land is the natural order and therefore right and proper congratulations you have been brainwashed.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;458669 wrote: I had taken you to mean you were one of the many expatriate children obliged to return to the homeland by reason of national independence when the Union Flag was finally lowered, William, not that you were a government employee.



No, I most certainly was not.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;458674 wrote: No, I most certainly was not.
I'm as unwilling to pry as you are to explain, it would seem. It is, of course, as both of us are fully aware, none of my business how you came to be there at that point in history.
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Post by spot »

Scrat;458765 wrote: Nice how you side step some of the realities of Europes guilded age and the wonders we brought to the world. Instead of helping the "naked savages" to better themselves. And the world for that matter.
Reporter: "What do you think of Western Civilization?"

Mohandas Gandhi: "I think it would be a good idea".

That's the chap who also said "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win", which is equally germane to this thread.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;458676 wrote: I'm as unwilling to pry as you are to explain, it would seem. It is, of course, as both of us are fully aware, none of my business how you came to be there at that point in history.



It is, as you say, none of your business. However, I had no interest, vested or emotional, in the places I visited. In fact some of the views I formed might surprise you. The majority of white South Africans I came across were little better than animals with scarcely a shred of decency in their entire beings. The surprise is that the blacks remained dormant for as long as they did. Part of the reason was that many of the South African Whites migrated, largely from Scotland, after the war and arrived in a position of advantage without having had to work for it or gain, as their seniors had done, a rapport with the natives. One result of their insufferable arrogance was the apartheid regime which was introduced in 1951.

I formed a strong affection for Africans, Indians and Malays; made many friends and, I think, no enemies. However, close frienship with one's neighbour is one thing; letting him take over your house is another and that, of course, is what the debate is all about.
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Post by spot »

You sound very like the late Enoch Powell, who was a principled and admirable man without (as far as I understand his position, from hearing him speak and reading some of his essays) a racially prejudiced bone in his body, actively criticizing that mindset before the war while serving in India and retaining his view thereafter.

The house, however, is mine and I have enjoyed inviting people to move in and take a share of its ownership.
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Post by Adam Zapple »

Scrat;458765 wrote: Nice how you side step some of the realities of Europes guilded age and the wonders we brought to the world. Instead of helping the "naked savages" to better themselves. And the world for that matter.



You used to claim to be American.
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Post by spot »

Adam Zapple;459162 wrote: You used to claim to be American.
At the time of Europe's Gilded age, all of the colonized areas of North America were run from Europe and the settlers from Britain were still British Nationals.
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Post by William Ess »

Scrat;458765 wrote: This is a very vague statement cosidering the last 3 or 4 hundred years were the height of colonization from Europe and some of the largest exoduses from Europe to the New World and we all know why that occured.

Nice how you side step some of the realities of Europes guilded age and the wonders we brought to the world. Instead of helping the "naked savages" to better themselves. And the world for that matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9AMtUeyDP0&mode=related&search=



So far as the British Isles was concerned the migration to America had more to do with temporary economic downturns than with persecution. This, of course, was not always the case with movement from the European mainland.

The reality of Europe's - or at least, Britain's - history of the last five hundred years was one of gradual improvement in the general conditions of the population during thatv time. There were reversals but they were short-lived while at times there were advances - the Industrial Revolution - which leaped ahead of societies' immediate ability to cope.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;459172 wrote: At the time of Europe's Gilded age, all of the colonized areas of North America were run from Europe and the settlers from Britain were still British Nationals.



Perhaps you should look more closely into the administration of pre-1776 America.
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Post by twizzel »

spot;456672 wrote: Time will cure all things, William. Thank God that reactionary old intransigents finally cash in their chips. My children don't find it "intolerable", I don't find it "intolerable". Another fifty years and the average citizen in the UK will have the same view of racial intolerance as I have now of pre-war class bigotry.

The reason your children and mine do not see a problem is that they are indoctrinated with an anti English corriculem, my daughter has refused to listen her whole life when I have tried to rell her about her countries great history. Now she is studying law and history at university she phoned me to tell me what a great and fasinating history this country has, her brother who is 18 believes this country only robbed the poor black man while beating him and raping his women. He has been taught nothing about how we ruled 25% of the land mass on this planet with every colour race and religion very successfully through trade and brought law and government to those who had non. We should never give an inch to a region still based in the middle ages and which uses indoctrination and cruelty to futher its ends.
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Post by twizzel »

Scrat;458776 wrote: I see your point Spot. William just can't look back and say we could have done things differently, and still can today. We have done far more harm than we have done good to this world.

IMO.



To say we have done far more harm than good to this world would lead me to believe you have no idea of the true greatness of England and the English and no sence of history.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;459203 wrote: Perhaps you should look more closely into the administration of pre-1776 America.
How is it that you pose tasks without giving your own viewpoint, William? I did just finish Paul Johnson's "A history of the American people" this week, it's still fairly fresh in my mind. What's your point, as regards "the administration of pre-1776 America"?
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Post by spot »

twizzel;459262 wrote: The reason your children and mine do not see a problem is that they are indoctrinated with an anti English corriculem
That accounts for my children's view, then. How about mine?
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Post by William Ess »

twizzel;459262 wrote: The reason your children and mine do not see a problem is that they are indoctrinated with an anti English corriculem, my daughter has refused to listen her whole life when I have tried to rell her about her countries great history. Now she is studying law and history at university she phoned me to tell me what a great and fasinating history this country has, her brother who is 18 believes this country only robbed the poor black man while beating him and raping his women. He has been taught nothing about how we ruled 25% of the land mass on this planet with every colour race and religion very successfully through trade and brought law and government to those who had non. We should never give an inch to a region still based in the middle ages and which uses indoctrination and cruelty to futher its ends.



I think the British have far more to be proud than ashamed of; the colonial system was certainly a civilising and stabilising influence. If you want an example of what happened when we pulled out, you need look no further than America where all the agreements with the Red Indians were peremptorily scrapped and slavery, which we abolished in 1830, was effectively continued for another 130 years.

As for India, the greatest mistake we made was not to have hanged Gandhi.
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Post by yorkster »

Scrat;458516 wrote: William .William. William. :( Ireally get the impression you look down on other people.

If you compare what these savages did to some things that Europeans did in our known history you come down to one difference. Like I said before, Europeans wore more clothes.

" Yeah, the Africans had the Zulus. Europe had Vlad the Impaler. England had the practice of drawing and quartering people/enemies for the purpose of public spectacle, which was quite an event for the common folk from what I hear.

The South American continent had the Caribs, cannibals that actually maintained herds of people to be eaten, who is to say things such as that never happened far back in the European past? Most likely it did in some form or another.

I wonder what kind of people would create such things as industrialized warfare, mustard and phosgene gas, the LeMay treatment and the bombing of population centers for the soul purpose of killing innocent civilians to "demoralize" the enemy.

Shaka had his Impies, Hitler had his Gestapo and the Kings of England had their warlords and Crusades in the name of Christ. And yes the Spanish had their Inquisitors.

And don't forget nuclear weapons.

What's the difference between naked savages and the ones that wore clothes?



Interesting. The first thought which came to my mind was a quote by Reginald Kray who was London's equivalent to Carlo Gambino/Joe Bonanno in the 1960's

" our empire was controlled by violence & the fact that we were better at it than all the others"

"I wonder what kind of people would create such things as industrialized warfare, mustard and phosgene gas, the LeMay treatment and the bombing of population centers for the soul purpose of killing innocent civilians to "demoralize" the enemy"

A simple answer to that would be any person or nation with the ability to do so if they believed circumstances required them to do so. The nature of the beast.

"What's the difference between naked savages and the ones that wore clothes?"

The ones who wore more clothes came from a colder climate, carried guns & were more disciplined
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Post by William Ess »

spot;459275 wrote: How is it that you pose tasks without giving your own viewpoint, William? I did just finish Paul Johnson's "A history of the American people" this week, it's still fairly fresh in my mind. What's your point, as regards "the administration of pre-1776 America"?



Because the skill of debate is to present an argument and not one's personal viewpoint. The two do not always coincide.

As to your question, you should look closely at the structure of the pre-1776 State Authorities, their powers to make laws and raise taxes, their obligations - this might surprise you - to make payments to the crown and, highly significant, their relationships with one another. You should also consider this in the context of their remoteness from London and his this affected any supposed administration. (An urgent message from, say, Virginia to London would take, at best, three months to be answered and more typically nine if the matter had to be considered and debated. The scope for transatlantic administration was severely limited).

Finally there is the position of America in relation to the colonies as a whole. There is a temptation to see 18th century America in 20th century terms. In fact mainland America was not at that time a viable proposition because its produce was too small to be of significance in terms of trade. The jewel in the New World colonial possessions at the time were the West Indies which were highly prosperous, chiefly because of sugar.
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Post by William Ess »

yorkster;459367 wrote: a quote by Reginald Kray





If Reginald Kray made an assertion, that in itself was a convincing reason for believing the opposite.
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Post by yorkster »

William Ess;459377 wrote: If Reginald Kray made an assertion, that in itself was a convincing reason for believing the opposite.



I think in relation to Reginalds own 'empire' it was quite true
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Post by twizzel »

spot;457532 wrote: http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-castrati.html might provide a balance to this one-sided assertion.

The idea that the establishment of the British Empire was a measure to improve the lot of the benighted heathen is a sickening reversal of historical fact.



The British Empire was brought about by trade and there is no dought it benefitted those we ruled, wherever we went we improved the lives of those we ruled by a few simple easy to understand rules.ie if you kill someone we will hang you if you eat anyone we will hang you if you steal or cause harm to anyone we will beat you and send you to prison where you will do hard labour. Funnily enough the poor benighted natives understood these rules and for the most part behaved
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Post by yorkster »

spot;458899 wrote: You sound very like the late Enoch Powell, who was a principled and admirable man without (as far as I understand his position, from hearing him speak and reading some of his essays) a racially prejudiced bone in his body, actively criticizing that mindset before the war while serving in India and retaining his view thereafter.

The house, however, is mine and I have enjoyed inviting people to move in and take a share of its ownership.



http://thepressnewspaper.co.uk/NewsDetails.asp?id=725

This is my house. Multi-culteral utopia or rivers of blood
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Post by twizzel »

gmc;458670 wrote: I'm not english but rather part of one of those other tribes that invaded briton after the romans left or are you going to claim those of saxon, danish, norman gaelic descent have no claim to be british either. Even in ethelreds time britain was a multicultural society, ethelred was merely head one of the stronger tribes at the time. As it happens i can trace my descent way back my wife has an ancestor that came across with william the bastard so touch your forelock peasant.

posted by yorkster



You're way too late to worry about it. Britain has been a multicultural society since time immemorial. just look at the faces around you and you can see all the different tribes people have come from.

william ess



One of the chracteristics of our multi cultural society is that the descendants of the medeival warlords who took over the country have managed to convince us all they are entitled to keep it. If you don't understand that and think that a few people owning all the land is the natural order and therefore right and proper congratulations you have been brainwashed.
And still she married a heathen from north of the border no accounting for the taste of these girls.
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Post by twizzel »

William Ess;459295 wrote: I think the British have far more to be proud than ashamed of; the colonial system was certainly a civilising and stabilising influence. If you want an example of what happened when we pulled out, you need look no further than America where all the agreements with the Red Indians were peremptorily scrapped and slavery, which we abolished in 1830, was effectively continued for another 130 years.

As for India, the greatest mistake we made was not to have hanged Gandhi.

Personnally when he laid in front of the train I would have run him over with it.
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Post by spot »

twizzel;459406 wrote: Personnally when he laid in front of the train I would have run him over with it.
And when, twizzel, did Gandhi ever lay in front of a train? Are you sure you're not just recalling a different episode from The Last Days of the Raj?
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twizzel;459389 wrote: The British Empire was brought about by trade and there is no dought it benefitted those we ruled, wherever we went we improved the lives of those we ruled
You don't perhaps wonder, then, why there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries?
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Post by William Ess »

spot;459435 wrote: You don't perhaps wonder, then, why there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries?



That is just it. There was very little support for such movements.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;459693 wrote: That is just it. There was very little support for such movements.
William, if you're going to tell me I lie at least give me some evidence at the same time - just to make it slightly more polite, you know?Massive celebrations ensued. There were fireworks, torchlit processions, gun salutes, parades and the sounding of conch horns, bells and sirens. Gandhi ("the architect of freedom", as Prime Minister Pandit Nehru called him) spent the day in prayer and fasting in Calcutta. There were remarkable demonstrations of friendship between Hindus and Muslims, and in many cities the Indian, Pakistani and British flags flew side by side.
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You'll want more than one example, presumably:Highly colourful celebrations took place in the newly-opened Kingston Stadium in front of 30,000 people. Hymns were sung (including Abide With Me, a curious choice in the circumstances) and at midnight, the crowd sang God Save The Queen and the national anthem, Jamaica, Land We Love. Outside the capital, church bells were pealed in Jamaica's 4,000 villages, beacons and bonfires were lit on the island's hills and there was much calypso dancing.
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Again, perhaps:The newly-built Uhuru (Freedom) Stadium was crammed with 250,000 people for the handover ceremony. These included a number of Mau Mau generals wearing khaki uniforms and caps to whom Prime Minister Jomo Kenyatta had granted a free pardon as he had to all other members of the outlawed Land Freedom Army. More than 5,000 prisoners were released in a special amnesty; Kenyatta himself had spent eight years in prison under British rule. Plans were announced for the phased withdrawal of British troops in the twelve months following Independence Day.
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Or alternatively:Some 40,000 Malawians gave a standing ovation to Iain Macleod, the last Colonial Secretary, of whom Dr Hastings Banda, the new Prime Minister, remarked: "Without him, we would not be celebrating independence today". There were many references to strong friendship with Britain and racial harmony in the new country. Britain had been responsible for Dr Banda spending years in prison. Macleod had eventually procured his release. "You are the only people in the world who send me to jail yesterday and invite me to Buckingham Palace tomorrow," cried Dr Banda to the Duke.
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I particularly likeThe Chief Minister, Tengku Abdul Rahman, formally proclaimed Merdeka (Independence) Day at a ceremony in Kuala Lumpur which was, as the newspapers described it, "en fete"."en fete" seems to carry the sense of "so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries", don't you think?
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Where there were sections of the population which had its doubts they did act subsequently to rectify the handover:Three platoons of Gordon Highlanders from Nairobi and two platoons of sailors from HMS Ark Royal attended the raising of the new flag. This consisted of a red banner bearing two golden cloves (Zanzibar's main export crop) on a green circle.

Reporters at the time pointed out that although the Arab sections of Zanzibar city were well decorated, the African sections showed little signs of jollity. The view was that real independence would mean freedom from the Sultan, as well as from the British. Less than a month later, on 12 January, 1964, the Sultan was a deposed ruler on his way to England. He had been overthrown by the police - Zanzibar did not have its own army. Three months later, Zanzibar united with Tanganyika. The happy couple changed their name to Tanzania in October 1964.
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I've been very good, I haven't once brought up the celebrations at the collapse of White Supremacist rule in South Africa. That wasn't a popular movement for independence either in your eyes, I expect. Nelson Mandela had no mandate in assuming the Presidency, perhaps. Maybe the elections were rigged and the crowds dancing in the streets were forced there at gunpoint.
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William Ess;459371 wrote: Because the skill of debate is to present an argument and not one's personal viewpoint. The two do not always coincide.
One might more readily distinguish an argument from an opinion if evidence were offered alongside it, of course. An argument is supposed to string logical conclusions from a grounding in fact, after all. If the conclusions are based on supposition, and the suppositions are the matter under dispute, the argument is somewhat futile unless each supposition can be sufficiently validated that both sides accept its truth. Now, persuade your audience that "there was very little support for such movements", please, while twizzel's discovering that he could only have satisfied his pitiable lust for the blood of one of India's favourite teachers if the teacher in question had actually protested against British Rule in the way he described.
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spot;459707 wrote: William, if you're going to tell me I lie at least give me some evidence at the same time - just to make it slightly more polite, you know?Massive celebrations ensued. There were fireworks, torchlit processions, gun salutes, parades and the sounding of conch horns, bells and sirens. Gandhi ("the architect of freedom", as Prime Minister Pandit Nehru called him) spent the day in prayer and fasting in Calcutta. There were remarkable demonstrations of friendship between Hindus and Muslims, and in many cities the Indian, Pakistani and British flags flew side by side.



No-one has called you a liar. Do you think you could retract the accusation before the debate continues.
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spot;459715 wrote: I've been very good, I haven't once brought up the celebrations at the collapse of White Supremacist rule in South Africa. That wasn't a popular movement for independence either in your eyes, I expect. Nelson Mandela had no mandate in assuming the Presidency, perhaps. Maybe the elections were rigged and the crowds dancing in the streets were forced there at gunpoint.



If you are going to take part in a debate, you might at least make an attempt to follow the thread of argument. I refer you to what I wrote about South Africa yesterday. It was, I think, fairly uncompromising.
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William Ess;459725 wrote: No-one has called you a liar. Do you think you could retract the accusation before the debate continues.
Perhaps, in your view, you suggested that I was merely mistaken rather than deliberately misguiding the thread? Put "there was so much popular support for the Independence movements in those countries" alongside "There was very little support for such movements" and there does seem to be at least an implication of error on my part. Was it deliberately incorrect, in which case I was lying, or was I simply wrong? I would undoubtedly be lying if I knew my assertion was incorrect and made it regardless. I hope that my subsequent examples demonstrate that I wasn't wrong, and that you were just expressing a personal viewpoint rather than an argument.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;459715 wrote: I've been very good, I haven't once brought up the celebrations at the collapse of White Supremacist rule in South Africa. That wasn't a popular movement for independence either in your eyes, I expect. Nelson Mandela had no mandate in assuming the Presidency, perhaps. Maybe the elections were rigged and the crowds dancing in the streets were forced there at gunpoint.



If you knew your subject properly you would know that South Africa was self-governing republic which left the Commonwealth in or about 1960. Britain was opposed to the regime there and took action in many forms, including trade sanctions and a blockade against South Africa.
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William Ess;459726 wrote: If you are going to take part in a debate, you might at least make an attempt to follow the thread of argument. I refer you to what I wrote about South Africa yesterday. It was, I think, fairly uncompromising.
You mentioned it while blackguarding the Scots, as I recall. I brought the place back to the thread in the context of popular support for independence movements. Are we to avoid mentioning a country in more than one context? Can I pre-empt any subsequent discussion of Hong Kong by adverting to it in this message?
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William Ess;459729 wrote: If you knew your subject properly you would know that South Africa was self-governing republic which left the Commonwealth in or about 1960. Britain was opposed to the regime there and took action in many forms, including trade sanctions and a blockade against South Africa.
That, of course, is why I was very good and didn't once bring up up the celebrations.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;459730 wrote: You mentioned it while blackguarding the Scots, as I recall. I brought the place back to the thread in the context of popular support for independence movements. Are we to avoid mentioning a country in more than one context? Can I pre-empt any subsequent discussion of Hong Kong by adverting to it in this message?



It is as well to be specific unless there is a good reason not to be. As for Hong Kong; Britain wanted to honour an obligation, the locals did not want that obligation honoured, Red China, of course, did but took great care not to absorb it politically into the mainland.

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