racial crime up 600% in london (sky news)

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yorkster
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Post by yorkster »

i have read some very interesting comments on this thread & feel i must add my 2 penneth.

Firstly i would like to point out that I live in a town in the north of England which has a 40% Muslim population. At the last general election i believe we had the highest % of BNP votes in the UK. The % of Muslims & the % of BNP votes are not unrelated. I experience the multicultural experiment every day of the week.1 of the London suicide bombers lived 1 mile form where I am now sat.

I think it is rather naive to blame the media for the current tensions .

I first realised the depth of the problem after 9.11. A friend of mine who works as caretaker at a local junior school informed of a lot of anti US & pro bin laden graffiti which appeared at his school ( which is 80% Muslim). The Kids at this school were all under 11 years of age. The question is where were these kids getting their opinions from, This was before the invasion of Iraq. I mention Iraq as it is often used by apologists to justify Muslim discontent.

At this time we have gangs of Muslim youths attacking whites without fear of consequence. The police are little more than human scarecrows. I will give an example of which I have personal knowledge.

A friend of mine who is 72 yo & still works & operates his own business was being victimised by a local Muslim gang he reported his problems to the police on many occasions, to no avail. In desperation he went to see the local iman, 2 weeks later he had his out buildings burnt down.

i think the issue here is 1 the police are scared to act where Muslims are concerned . 2 A decent honest hard working man was forced to ask a foreign religious leader for protection.

Immigration is not the issue here. The issue is the inability & unwillingness of what is basically a medieval culture to assimilate within a western democracy

a final point,

I have often heard Muslims state they are willing to die for Islam. I have yet to hear a Muslim state they are willing to give up their state benifits,NHS, toyota corola & council house for Islam.
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Post by William Ess »

Yorkster should congratulated for putting into words what many people would like to say but are afraid to. Frankly it is intolerable that any town in England should have a 4% Asian population, let alone 40%.

We have been invaded but what can we do about it.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;456575 wrote: Yorkster should congratulated for putting into words what many people would like to say but are afraid to. Frankly it is intolerable that any town in England should have a 4% Asian population, let alone 40%.

We have been invaded but what can we do about it.
Time will cure all things, William. Thank God that reactionary old intransigents finally cash in their chips. My children don't find it "intolerable", I don't find it "intolerable". Another fifty years and the average citizen in the UK will have the same view of racial intolerance as I have now of pre-war class bigotry.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;456672 wrote: Time will cure all things, William. Thank God that reactionary old intransigents finally cash in their chips. My children don't find it "intolerable", I don't find it "intolerable". Another fifty years and the average citizen in the UK will have the same view of racial intolerance as I have now of pre-war class bigotry.



With respect, yours is the parallel of the view that there was no danger looming inn the 1930's. These people do not want to share this country with us - they want to take it from us. In fifty years - perhaps fifteen - I suspect you will be singing from a very different sheet.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;456694 wrote: With respect, yours is the parallel of the view that there was no danger looming inn the 1930's. These people do not want to share this country with us - they want to take it from us. In fifty years - perhaps fifteen - I suspect you will be singing from a very different sheet.
Do ask me again, when the time comes. I know a lot of "these people", as you so disgustingly call them, and you are beyond belief wrong with your "do not want to share this country with us" clap-trap. I'm appalled that reactionary bile such as this should still exist. I'm pleased it's less common than it was.
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yorkster
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Post by yorkster »

spot;456672 wrote: Time will cure all things, William. Thank God that reactionary old intransigents finally cash in their chips. My children don't find it "intolerable", I don't find it "intolerable". Another fifty years and the average citizen in the UK will have the same view of racial intolerance as I have now of pre-war class bigotry.



Another fifty years and the average citizen in the UK will have the same view of racial intolerance as I have now of pre-war class

I think you are mistaken. I would just like to make a point about the use of the term racial intolerance & the word racism in general. The word has been used as a stick which lefties & minorities use to beat any who dare to disagree with them for about ten years now & a boy who cried wolf situation has developed.IE call me a racist & I won't run for cover.

I do not find it intolerable either I live with it, I suspect you don't. If you think all will be well & good in 50 years time i suggest you are mistaken. If things carry on as they are we will have a more divided society than we do now.The reality is we are heading towards a series of mini civil wars in our towns & cities & no one can do anything about it. Race is not the issue. The issues are culture & religion.
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Post by spot »

yorkster;456744 wrote: The word has been used as a stick which lefties & minorities use to beat any who dare to disagree with them for about ten years now & a boy who cried wolf situation has developed.IE call me a racist & I won't run for cover.
I haven't called you anything at all, yorkster. I'm not sure I've even read anything you've written.
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Post by yorkster »

spot;456747 wrote: I haven't called you anything at all, yorkster. I'm not sure I've even read anything you've written.



Sorry
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Post by spot »

Galbally;436611 wrote: I think your last sentence was a bit over the top, but anyway, I'm not going to debate the ponts, just to say I have that book by Paul Johnson, its good, I've read it twice.
I just finished it. He's fine until FDR, mostly, but then he gives way to continuous partisan opinion which rather got up my nose. The book also carries the greatest number of misprinted non-spellcheckable errors I've seen since the Guardian cleaned up its act. Dozens of them.
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Post by Adam Zapple »

It was revealed in the weeks following the [July 2005 London] attacks that quite a number of British Muslims do not much care for their fellow Britons. According to a poll conducted shortly after the bomboing, a full 32 percent of British Muslims agreed that "Western society is decadent and immoral and Muslims should seek to bring it to an end." Toward that goal, 1 percent -- a seemingly small proportion until one considers that this comprises 16,000 British Muslims--described themselves as willing, even eager, to embrace violence to destroy that society. According to the same poll, 6 percent of British Muslims saw the bombings as justified, 56 percent "understood why some people behave in that way, " and 16 percent felt "not loyal towards Britain." This is a link to the survey.

The above is an exerpt from the excellent book "Menace in Europe" by Claire Berlinski. I recommend everyone grab a copy of this book.
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Post by yorkster »

William Ess;456575 wrote: Yorkster should congratulated for putting into words what many people would like to say but are afraid to. Frankly it is intolerable that any town in England should have a 4% Asian population, let alone 40%.

We have been invaded but what can we do about it.



To be frank I have no idea what we can do about it. I used to think time & ethnic progression would solve the problem but ethnic progression is not relevant here as the muslims don't want to leave their ghettos, just expand them. Yes we have been invaded & firebrand clerics in the middle east are fanning the flames of discontent amongst young disaffected UK born Muslims. In my opinion the UK has become a victim of it's own tolerant nature. Infact we could deal with the situation but our nation would have to take a step backwards & fight intolerance with intolerance. The way things are going this may well happen. The BNP will not be allowed to progress much further, the courts have failed to stop them so now the main parties are going to put some of the milder BNP policies on the agenda IE immigration.

Where will it all end? for me it will end when I sell my business & home & get the hell out of a town where my family have lived for generations. I'm hoping to purchase an ivory tower situated on the moral high ground & look forward to the day I can once again become a Guardian reader.
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Post by William Ess »

Adam Zapple;456829 wrote: The above is an exerpt from the excellent book "Menace in Europe" by Claire Berlinski. I recommend everyone grab a copy of this book.





I think the book merely confirms what many of us have suspected for very many years. We will, I am sure, live to rue the day these people set foot on our shores.
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Post by William Ess »

yorkster;456852 wrote: In my opinion the UK has become a victim of it's own tolerant nature. Infact we could deal with the situation but our nation would have to take a step backwards & fight intolerance with intolerance. .



I believe the first thing we must have - as a matter of urgency - is a nationality bill which draws a distinction between the ethnic Briitish (ie those whose forbears were in this country in, say, 1945) and those who have arrived since. The latter must not be allowed to hold any post which is connected with Government, administration or the media. The question of their voting rights should also be looked at very closely.
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Post by yorkster »

William Ess;456922 wrote: I believe the first thing we must have - as a matter of urgency - is a nationality bill which draws a distinction between the ethnic Briitish (ie those whose forbears were in this country in, say, 1945) and those who have arrived since. The latter must not be allowed to hold any post which is connected with Government, administration or the media. The question of their voting rights should also be looked at very closely.



Respectfully I think you are making a mistake here. The problem is not non white people but Muslims ( in my parochial opinion).That said I do believe British nationality should be regarded as a privilege & not a right whatever our ethnic origin.

To be quite honest this is my first day on this site & after my first post I was expecting to get my ass kicked by the PC brigade. To meet someone to the right of me is quite unexpected.

I have toyed with the idea that to be born in Britain does not make one British & I am certainly well aware that many people who hold a British passport do not regard themselves as British.Maybe in the future nationality will become a state of mind & have little relevance to where we are born. Just a thought.

The question of S voting rights?

Now you have hit on a very interesting subject.

At the last local elections it was quite well documented ( at local level) that Muslims candidates were imploring their brother Muslims to vote for them purely on religious grounds IE vote for your brother Muslim ( New Labour) as opposed to the White (Tory) candidate. several of my friends were escorted into polling booths by New labour supporters (Muslims).Also non Muslim (Tory) candidates were threatened by Muslim (new Labour) supporters (new Labour rely on the block Muslim vote). An Independent local newspaper is being sued by non other than Shaheed Malik my local MP & self proclaimed MP for all Muslims. Why? They told the truth about what Malik & his 'crew' are doing. Malik does not have a chance of winning he will back down or loose.

I feel a little guilty about boring people with my small town stories but i do think that what is happening in my tiny part of this world may well happen to others one day

Sooner rather than later.
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Post by William Ess »

[QUOTE=yorkster; To meet someone to the right of me is quite unexpected.

I have toyed with the idea that to be born in Britain does not make one British & I am certainly well aware that many people who hold a British passport do not regard themselves as British.Maybe in the future nationality will become a state of mind & have little relevance to where we are born. Just a thought.

.


I am not especially right-wing; it is simply that my instincts tell me that immigration on the scale that we have known it, is a bomb waiting to explode. The Islam element looks as though it is going to spark things off but my view is that warfare with either Asians or West Indians is inescapable.

I don't think we should be afraid of voicing our fears for fear of being labelled a 'racist'.
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Post by William Ess »

yorkster;456991 wrote: I have toyed with the idea that to be born in Britain does not make one British & I am certainly well aware that many people who hold a British passport do not regard themselves as British..



Traditionally one took the nationality of one's parents although there were always grey areas. Since the war the water has become distinctly muddy although there is consolation in the fact that you can 'make' a West Indian British but you cannot make him an Englishman.

I think nationality is important. I am of a race that is a thousand years old and which has led the world in most major developments of science, politics and art. (About the only thing England has not produced is a first-division composer!). I really don't want my historical heritage being put on the same level as one that was redolent of naked savagery less than a century ago.
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Post by yorkster »

About the only thing England has not produced is a first-division composer

But we have produced a 1st class percussiainist a very young gentleman by the name of Keith Moon.

Thanks for your opinions.they have been stimulating & above all honest it will be a pleasure to be able to agree with you & disagree with you.
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Post by yorkster »

Scrat;457170 wrote: Hmmmm. Interesting. Considering some of the acts of the British Empire in the past about the only difference was the clothes.

The legacy of Europeans is filled with savagery, just because some of the slaughtered, enslaved mulititudes had little if any education it seems to have allowed Europeans create histories that portray history in a suitable light.

What you're up against now in Britain and for example America is a reaction to an act that transpired over hundreds of years and over vast distances.

The European age is coming to and end. Seems we didn't kill enough of the Sand Niggas, Darkies and Slant eyes in the past.



what has the british empire got to do with me? non of my ancesters benefited from it

The legacy of Europeans is filled with savagery,

America is a european colony based on savagery. with out europe the US would not exist it is still a european colony it is the monster we created & the world would be a better place without you. I have always believed that the UK should remain a freind of the US but having to read the ****, a brain dead **** wit, red neck, ass hole like you writes i will re- consider my opinion
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

yorkster;457250 wrote: what has the british empire got to do with me? non of my ancesters benefited from it

The legacy of Europeans is filled with savagery,

America is a european colony based on savagery. with out europe the US would not exist it is still a european colony it is the monster we created & the world would be a better place without you. I have always believed that the UK should remain a freind of the US but having to read the ****, a brain dead **** wit, red neck, ass hole like you writes i will re- consider my opinion



If you claim that non of your ancesters benefitted from the BE then you cannot be British.

I've kept out of this thread up until now but If this is a taste of your thinking the get you the hell off of this board and back into the sh!thole you've crawlled out of.

If you've an argument to make then make it - we'll discuss it.

If you want to insult people then p!ss off, you're not welcome in civilised society.
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Post by lady cop »

yorkster;457250 wrote: what has the british empire got to do with me? non of my ancesters benefited from it



The legacy of Europeans is filled with savagery,



America is a european colony based on savagery. with out europe the US would not exist it is still a european colony it is the monster we created & the world would be a better place without you. I have always believed that the UK should remain a freind of the US but having to read the ****, a brain dead **** wit, red neck, ass hole like you writes i will re- consider my opinion
this thread was inflammatory from its beginning in April 2005. i am a true anglophile, engaged to an Englishman and very conversant with your history. but i will tell you this, filthy personal attacks are NOT welcome here.
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Post by yorkster »

lady cop;457261 wrote: this thread was inflammatory from its beginning. i am a true anglophile, engaged to an Englishman and very conversant with your history. but i will tell you this, personal attacks are NOT welcome here.



And i will tell you my last post was a reaction to an atack. the point being do not throw stones in a glass house. it is very easy to pick a fight. my own opinion is that the US is the oldest & strongest freind of the UK we share a culteral & political histiory. IE the UK would not exist without the US & going firther back in time the US would not exist without the Uk.As for me not being welcome here I will leave that for others to decide not just you. I have been impressed by the standard of posting on this site a think I may learn things but if a red neck wants to drink moonshine & insult me & my people I will respond.
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Post by lady cop »

yorkster;457281 wrote: And i will tell you my last post was a reaction to an atack. the point being do not throw stones in a glass house. it is very easy to pick a fight. my own opinion is that the US is the oldest & strongest freind of the UK we share a culteral & political histiory. IE the UK would not exist without the US & going firther back in time the US would not exist without the Uk.As for me not being welcome here I will leave that for others to decide not just you. I have been impressed by the standard of posting on this site a think I may learn things but if a red neck wants to drink moonshine & insult me & my people I will respond.

Scrat did NOT attack you personally with name-calling as you have done. and i did not say YOU are not welcome, i said filthy attacks are not welcome. who the hell are you to call Scrat a "redneck drinking moonshine"?? he's a well-respected member here. (sorry Scrat, i know you don't need me to defend you, but some things just prompt me to speak my mind).
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Post by yorkster »

Bryn Mawr;457258 wrote: If you claim that non of your ancesters benefitted from the BE then you cannot be British.

I've kept out of this thread up until now but If this is a taste of your thinking the get you the hell off of this board and back into the sh!thole you've crawlled out of.

If you've an argument to make then make it - we'll discuss it.

If you want to insult people then p!ss off, you're not welcome in civilised society.



Ok lets discuss it.

"If you want to insult people then p!ss off, you're not welcome in civilised society"

"So what is civilised? are you civilised?

I've kept out of this thread up until now but If this is a taste of your thinking the get you the hell off of this board and back into the sh!thole you've crawlled out of."

So what are you saying here, **** of if i do not agree with you?

I've kept out of this thread up until now but If this is a taste of your thinking the get you the hell off of this board and back into the sh!thole you've crawlled out of.

But you have been waiting for an angle, ok kick my ass

on what authority can you decide if i am british or not? just a question

I suspect a colonial with a chip on his /her shoulder is about to be very rude to me ok go for it>>>
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Post by yorkster »

lady cop;457300 wrote: Scrat did NOT attack you personally with name-calling as you have done. and i did not say YOU are not welcome, i said filthy attacks are not welcome. who the hell are you to call Scrat a "redneck drinking moonshine"?? he's a well-respected member here. (sorry Scrat, i know you don't need me to defend you, but some things just prompt me to speak my mind).



"Seems we didn't kill enough of the Sand Niggas, Darkies and Slant eyes in the past."

Is this what well respected members post. I am far from politicaly correct infact I have made my opinions obvious I stand to be counted ( & now i am being). " Filthy" well that is a matter of opinion. Nice to hear you speak your mind. Is it ok if others do the same?
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Post by lady cop »

well if you had been around a bit longer and knew people you would know sarcasm when you saw it. it still does not excuse your nasty personal attack.
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Post by yorkster »

lady cop;457330 wrote: well if you had been around a bit longer you would know sarcasm when you saw it. it still does not excuse your nasty personal attack.



Ok you win I'm going to bed I know when to back down to a person of superior rank. Well almost... My nasty personal atack was a counter punch, maybe I was more blunt & honest than the person who threw the firsts punch....It has been said that yorkshiremen are very similar to texans..... god help us...goodnight sleep tight
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

yorkster;457313 wrote: Ok lets discuss it.

"If you want to insult people then p!ss off, you're not welcome in civilised society"

"So what is civilised? are you civilised?



Civilised is being able to interact with your fellows in a civil manner. The foulmouthed outburst you produced was not civilised.

yorkster wrote: I've kept out of this thread up until now but If this is a taste of your thinking the get you the hell off of this board and back into the sh!thole you've crawlled out of."

So what are you saying here, **** of if i do not agree with you?



Nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing - if you cannot keep from personnal insults (and coming out with that within you first 10 posts suggests very strongly that you cannot) they the Garden is better off without you.

yorkster wrote: I've kept out of this thread up until now but If this is a taste of your thinking the get you the hell off of this board and back into the sh!thole you've crawlled out of.

But you have been waiting for an angle, ok kick my ass



No. It was a subject I would rather not have become involved in - especially when it became a mutual appreciation society.

yorkster wrote: on what authority can you decide if i am british or not? just a question

I suspect a colonial with a chip on his /her shoulder is about to be very rude to me ok go for it>>>



You are the one who denied your ancester's association with the British Empire.

You are also the one who, with zero provocation, decended into personnal insult and rudeness - very un-British Sir.
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Post by William Ess »

Bryn Mawr;457258 wrote: If you claim that non of your ancesters benefitted from the BE then you cannot be British.

I've kept out of this thread up until now but If this is a taste of your thinking the get you the hell off of this board and back into the sh!thole you've crawlled out of.

If you've an argument to make then make it - we'll discuss it.

If you want to insult people then p!ss off, you're not welcome in civilised society.



Whatever excess individuals may have committed during the period of colonial administration, they paled into insignificance compared with the routine practices of many of those we administered. The Zulu's (for example) maintained discipline by murdering their own people in their hundreds by a means so slow, painful and savage that I will not describe it. Suttee, Cannibalism and a thousand other barbaric practices that had no parallel in the Western way of life were endemic. Large parts of Africa and the east practiced the mutilation of small boys to produce Eunuchs - the thousands for whom the operation went wrong were simply thrown out, disembowelled, onto the streets to die slowly of pain and butchery. Many of these murderous acts continued into the twentieth century and it is quite probable that some still survive.

We, on the other hand, introduced - by example - civilized conduct, legislation and - mirabile dictu - abolished slavery.

As for America, it is worth remembering that during the time the British Crown had dominion, there was an agreement in force with the Red Indians that Europeans would not settle west of the Appalachians. This agreement was not broken until after 1776.
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Post by spot »

Scrat;457502 wrote: In the spirit of the infamous Rodney King..........

''Can't we all just get along?"
Every few months you get someone attracted to Forumgarden by this damned thread. They jump in, it's their first place to post, it's why they're here. Eventually they go away. I don't like such people, I don't get on with them, I apologise to the rest of the world for them. They come in two flavours, those who are seriously against creating a multi-cultural England and those who want a couple of days notoriety and adrenaline fighting on a board. I'm not suficiently interested in them to even try to distinguish. They represent a small and dying Mosley-like minority in the UK and, should they ever again foregather in Cable Street, I shall dutifully make my way there and show them the error of their ways.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;457513 wrote: Large parts of Africa and the east practiced the mutilation of small boys to produce Eunuchs - the thousands for whom the operation went wrong were simply thrown out, disembowelled, onto the streets to die slowly of pain and butchery. Many of these murderous acts continued into the twentieth century and it is quite probable that some still survive.
http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-castrati.html might provide a balance to this one-sided assertion.

The idea that the establishment of the British Empire was a measure to improve the lot of the benighted heathen is a sickening reversal of historical fact.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;457532 wrote: http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-castrati.html

The idea that the establishment of the British Empire was a measure to improve the lot of the benighted heathen is a sickening reversal of historical fact.



Perhaps before you resort to sneering you might first study a little history. The Colonial regime was a powerful engine of change and enlightenment which brought freedom, education and intelligence to millions. The tragedy is that it did not spread more widely in Africa.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;457519 wrote: Every few months you get someone attracted to Forumgarden by this damned thread. They jump in, it's their first place to post, it's why they're here. Eventually they go away. I don't like such people, I don't get on with them, I apologise to the rest of the world for them. They come in two flavours, those who are seriously against creating a multi-cultural England and those who want a couple of days notoriety and adrenaline fighting on a board. I'm not suficiently interested in them to even try to distinguish. They represent a small and dying Mosley-like minority in the UK and, should they ever again foregather in Cable Street, I shall dutifully make my way there and show them the error of their ways.



The reason people are attracted to it, is because it is one of the majopr themes of our time.

One might have more respect for your point of view, whatever it might be, if you attacked the argument rather than those arguing.

Persuade us we are wrong.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;457538 wrote: The reason people are attracted to it, is because it is one of the majopr themes of our time.

One might have more respect for your point of view, whatever it might be, if you attacked the argument rather than those arguing.

Persuade us we are wrong.
That quaint one-way "show us your sources" again?

Many people who immigrated to the UK have a permanent right of residence. A proportion of those also have UK citizenship.

Some have children born in the UK, who also have a permanent right of residence and UK citizenship.

I'll give as an example a guy called Fredek. His father survived transportation to Siberia in 1940, made his way to Italy where he joined the Polish II Corps under General Anders, fought at Monte Cassino and arrived in England in 1947. Fredek's mother ended the war in the British Zone of Occupied Germany and also made her way to England in late 1947. The two met in the Springhill Lodges Polish Displaced Persons camp on the A44 between Moreton in Marsh and Broadway, built as a Prisoner of War camp and transformed after the war. They married, and Fredek and his sister were born a couple of years later.

I note that, in your view, Fredek "must not be allowed to hold any post which is connected with Government, administration or the media. The question of [his] voting rights should also be looked at very closely".

I have visited Poland several times in his company, and mixed with other UK citizens with a similar background. They retain their cultural identity and invite friends from other backgrounds to share in it. To visit the Ognisko Polish Club near the Science Museum in London, for example, is to experience hospitality in an Eastern European setting while remaining in the heart of the English capital. Fredek does not share my religion - he has his own which was that of his parents - and his cultural outlook contains aspects contributed from both his home life and his English upbringing. This is no different to any of the other multicultural environments which have been planted and nurtured here over the same timeframe, and I say this as someone who only recently moved out of the Saint Pauls district in Bristol and thus has direct experience of the matter. Multiculturalism is an asset to our national life, a broadening of our available experience, something to celebrate.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;457537 wrote: Perhaps before you resort to sneering you might first study a little history. The Colonial regime was a powerful engine of change and enlightenment which brought freedom, education and intelligence to millions. The tragedy is that it did not spread more widely in Africa.
William, one of the fat books on the shelf in front of me as I type is Thomas Pakenham's "The Scramble for Africa". To suggest that I'm an untutored lout may be accurate but it's relative, and I have done at least a modicum of background study - I did finish reading his book, for one thing, and I enjoyed discovering what he had to say on the subject. He refers in his Introduction to the pieces of the colonial cake which "have now become, ninety years later, for richer or poorer (mainly for poorer) the forty-seven independent nations of Africa". Your "powerful engine of change and enlightenment which brought freedom, education and intelligence to millions" does not square well with his conclusions at all.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;457564 wrote: That quaint one-way "show us your sources" again?

Many people who immigrated to the UK have a permanent right of residence. A proportion of those also have UK citizenship.

Some have children born in the UK, who also have a permanent right of residence and UK citizenship.

.



That is the position at the moment and is not at issue. The question is whether they should be allowed to maintain those rights and I believe the question should be looked at closely.

As to the Polish instance: we went to war on Poland's behalf and those Poles who were able, fought with the allies. Why, though, should that automatically endow them with rights of British citizenship? The Poles have their own country.

The crux of the issue is not who should be allowed to settle in Britain but the volume. I don't believe anyone could reasonably object to a few thousand West Indians and Asians but we have been overwhelmed with millions and their collective voice is drowning out ours.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;457568 wrote: William, one of the fat books on the shelf in front of me as I type is Thomas Pakenham's "The Scramble for Africa". To suggest that I'm an untutored lout may be accurate but it's relative, and I have done at least a modicum of background study - I did finish reading his book, for one thing, and I enjoyed discovering what he had to say on the subject. He refers in his Introduction to the pieces of the colonial cake which "have now become, ninety years later, for richer or poorer (mainly for poorer) the forty-seven independent nations of Africa". Your "powerful engine of change and enlightenment which brought freedom, education and intelligence to millions" does not square well with his conclusions at all.



I think if you look at what I wrote, I said that it was a pity that Africa was not more widely affected by the Colonial administration. Africa was largely unexplored until the late 19th century and although there were parts where some good was done, it was too little, too late. I have not read Longford's book but I have no reason to believe it is not sound; however, as with all history, a variety of histories is best in order to give a balanced view: One Cambridge, one Oxford, one contemporary by someone who was there at the time and all the economic statistics you can get hold of!
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Post by spot »

William Ess;457581 wrote: Africa was largely unexplored until the late 19th century
By Europeans? I'm sure you'll find that there were lots of people living there long before Stanley "opened the continent" to exploitation and religious conversion. It's a matter of regret that the aboriginal populations weren't strong enough to resist the incursion. Diversity is to be encouraged. Europeans, after all, have never been obliged to live anywhere other than Europe.
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Post by spot »

William Ess;457572 wrote: As to the Polish instance: we went to war on Poland's behalf and those Poles who were able, fought with the allies. Why, though, should that automatically endow them with rights of British citizenship?
Because that was the law at the time. You seem to want to amend the rules and retrospectively apply the changes. We don't do that in England, it's bad form.
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Post by William Ess »

spot;457586 wrote: By Europeans? I'm sure you'll find that there were lots of people living there long before Stanley "opened the continent" to exploitation and religious conversion. It's a matter of regret that the aboriginal populations weren't strong enough to resist the incursion. Diversity is to be encouraged. Europeans, after all, have never been obliged to live anywhere other than Europe.



I think you will find that Stanley was a newspaper reporter who went into Africa to locate David Livingstone. You are not confusing him with Cecil Rhodes, by any chance?
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Post by spot »

William Ess;457603 wrote: I think you will find that Stanley was a newspaper reporter who went into Africa to locate David Livingstone. You are not confusing him with Cecil Rhodes, by any chance?

Well, no, not really. Stanley was under contract to King Leopold of the Belgians for fifteen years or so, acquired the Congo for him and opened the interior for European expansion into both the Sudan and Uganda. Here's the Index entry for him in Packenham's book:Stanley, (Sir) Henry Morton: finds and resupplies Livingstone, 3; at Livingstone's funeral, 7, 25; explorations, 19; and Leopold's colonial ambitions, 23; expedition on Lualaba and Congo, 23, 24-5, 29-33, 35, 37-8, 59; background, 25-6; influence of Livingstone on, 25-6, 39; character, 26-7; in Buganda, 27-8, 297, 299-300; treatment of Africans, 28, 35, 39, 59, 6z, 331-2; and Tippu Tip, 29-33; and Alice Pike, 31, 38; rescued by da Motta Veiga, 36¬7; returns to Europe, 39; believes in extending Britain's African empire, 59-60; returns to Congo for Leopold, 6o, 6z, 140, 145-7, 149-50, 155, 320; rivalry with Brazza, 147-51, 153-4, 156, 158, 162; malaria, 150, 158; outwits Ngaliema, 151-2; at Pool, 152, 155; and Congo trade treaties, 155-6, 161, 282, 291; debate with Brazza in Paris, 158-9, 161; Leopold uses, 161¬2, 239, 242, 244-5, 255; aims for Congo, 245; meets Granville, 247; Congo stations, 250; leads relief expedition to Emin, 312, 314-24, 328-33, 345, 393; relations with Leopold, 316¬19, 325-6; and Dolly Tennant, 317-18; agreements with Tippu Tip, 318-20, 331; meets Emin, 325-6; patriotism, 326; Jephson on, 32,6-7; and Emin's evacuation, 332-3, 353; welcomed by Leopold, 393-5; and Leopold's Khartoum plan, 395, 436, 526; marriage to Dolly Tennant, 395; negotiates new borders with Mackinnon, 4oz; loses case against Tippu Tip, 407; supports Uganda occupation, 43z; Mizon contrasted with, 454;To take a paragraph practically at random:A great change had come over the way Europe regarded imperialism in Africa during the three years that he had been absent. A sudden new Scramble for territory had begun. Partly it was Stanley's own doing. His aim had been to make the search for Emin, like the search for Livingstone, seem to direct a spotlight into the darkness. But now he was only one of a number of European explorers competing for the attention of the public as they raced with their country's flag to the remotest corners of Central Africa.He was twice awarded the Royal Geographical Society's Gold Medal. Not just "a newspaper reporter who went into Africa to locate David Livingstone", all things considered.
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Post by gmc »

William Ess;457572 wrote: That is the position at the moment and is not at issue. The question is whether they should be allowed to maintain those rights and I believe the question should be looked at closely.

As to the Polish instance: we went to war on Poland's behalf and those Poles who were able, fought with the allies. Why, though, should that automatically endow them with rights of British citizenship? The Poles have their own country.

The crux of the issue is not who should be allowed to settle in Britain but the volume. I don't believe anyone could reasonably object to a few thousand West Indians and Asians but we have been overwhelmed with millions and their collective voice is drowning out ours.



I think in the interests of consistency you should also question the position of our half breed german queen and her refugee greek husband. Send them packing and confiscate all the land and property they have stiolen from the indigenous british people.
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Post by William Ess »

gmc;458245 wrote: I think in the interests of consistency you should also question the position of our half breed german queen and her refugee greek husband. Send them packing and confiscate all the land and property they have stiolen from the indigenous british people.



All this does is to demonstrate in your unfitness to engage in debate. Quite apart from the fact that the last German to enter the Royal Family at a senior level was born in circa 1831 - getting on for two hundred years ago - there is such a thing as the act of succession.

If you really believe that the Royal Family have engaged in theft, then you have a duty to bring it to the attention of the authorities.
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Post by twizzel »

hopki605;96056 wrote: bothwell

cowardly tossers like you can just sit back and let the real men sort this out !!!~!~

Real men do not petrol bomb anyone if you believe the content of your illegal rant is accurate, you should take it up with your local MP OR THE HOME OFFICE. You would have felt quite at home in the Gestapo.
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Post by twizzel »

gmc;458245 wrote: I think in the interests of consistency you should also question the position of our half breed german queen and her refugee greek husband. Send them packing and confiscate all the land and property they have stiolen from the indigenous british people.

Queen Elizabeth can trace her ancestry to Ethalred the unready I think that makes her English can you say the same or are you a more recent import.
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Post by yorkster »

spot;457519 wrote: Every few months you get someone attracted to Forumgarden by this damned thread. They jump in, it's their first place to post, it's why they're here. Eventually they go away. I don't like such people, I don't get on with them, I apologise to the rest of the world for them. They come in two flavours, those who are seriously against creating a multi-cultural England and those who want a couple of days notoriety and adrenaline fighting on a board. I'm not suficiently interested in them to even try to distinguish. They represent a small and dying Mosley-like minority in the UK and, should they ever again foregather in Cable Street, I shall dutifully make my way there and show them the error of their ways.



I am seriously against a multi-culteral Britain but I am not against a multi-racial Britain. i have never tried to court the interest of PC types i find them too naive to take seriously. i also find their vain attempts to hold the moral high ground laughale. I have never represented any minority I leave that type of thing to PC do gooders, I have heard it gives them meaning in their lives

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