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Post by spot »

cherandbuster wrote: Will you pull mine too, Spot? :-4The words "We'll all pull together" don't actually appear in the Eton Boating song, which is a slight disappointment after a lifetime thinking they did... but I was only going to make an extremely suggestive remark out of it anyway, so it's just as well.
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Post by cherandbuster »

spot wrote: but I was only going to make an extremely suggestive remark out of it anyway, so it's just as well.


Rats!

I was looking forward to it :p
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Post by spot »

Pinky wrote: :eek: :yh_ooooo Pull my WHAT?!!!:wah:Hah! What have you got, big girl?
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Post by Issie »

I wasn`t being obnoxious, and I don`t trawl the internet to back up my statements, because I actually do read the Spanish papers everyday.

You quoted Spain and I merely replied in trying to show you that Spain does have immigration problems, just like the UK.

Whether someone can speak the lingo is just ONE aspect of immigration and as English is now taught in Spanish schools, compulsory I might add, then you will find more people capable of speaking English.

However, go away from the tourist traps and deep into Spain then you will encounter a different scenario.

Immigrants live around me who have come from Pakistan, some 20 years ago, they neither speak in English or what is more worrying, they do not want to learn....so, how can they integrate.?

If you can't take part in a discussion without resorting to insults and rudeness to put your point across, then I for one will have very little respect for your opinions anyway.

I`m sorry that you find my opinions obnoxious, would you like to tell me where I have been rude....or are people only allowed to voice an opinion if they have been here a while.
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Post by Issie »

Pinky wrote: Calling people idiots is slightly rude!

I'd have to say I do agree with you about your last statement. If you're going to live somewhere, you should make an effort to learn the language.
Well Pinky, I apologise for that, but if you go into another thread, where I posted a warm heart felt reply...you will see that I was called an idiot for just having a different view.

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... 533&page=6
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Post by spot »

Issie wrote: Well Pinky, I apologise for that, but if you go into another thread, where I posted a warm heart felt reply...you will see that I was called an idiot for just having a different view.Issie, just to clarify a niggling question - have you ever posted on ForumGarden under a different username? I don't often ask, but I'd appreciate a direct response.
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Post by Issie »

spot wrote: Issie, just to clarify a niggling question - have you ever posted on ForumGarden under a different username? I don't often ask, but I'd appreciate a direct response.


I swear on my life and my kids life, who I love more than life itself. that I have never been here before, in any shape or form.

I do speak rather blunt, but that is because of where I live, we tend not to beat about the bush....and yes, I hold strong views, but I will say again.

I am no one else in disquise, and that is Gods truth.

I haven`t had a computer that long anyway.
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Post by spot »

I'm sorry for any implication I might have given by asking - it's not as though it's criminal, or that it's even against the terms and conditions here. I only asked because we had a spate of BNP sympathisers in quick succession a few months ago all throwing pre-prepared URL lists into threads.

I'm not calling you a BNP sympathiser either.

Nor of having pre-prepared URL lists.
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Post by Issie »

spot wrote: I'm sorry for any implication I might have given by asking - it's not as though it's criminal, or that it's even against the terms and conditions here. I only asked because we had a spate of BNP sympathisers in quick succession a few months ago all throwing pre-prepared URL lists into threads.

I'm not calling you a BNP sympathiser either.

Nor of having pre-prepared URL lists.


No problem, can we all start again.?

I`m no racist and no BNP supporter and I have an interest in Spain, which is merely an interest and not a financial interest, therefore, I do read the papers and the problem in the Canary Islands has been ongoing for quite some time, hence I already had the urls on my computer.

I welcome immigrants who come here legally and who find employment and consequently then pay into the system.

I would also require that they must speak the English language after being here a while.

If they pay into the system, then logic tells me, there would be more money to be paid out to the genuine needy cases, but, when you have a scenario where the British old people are treat like dog poo and are forced to sell their homes to have nursing care in their twilight years, for the simple reason that the system cannot cope with the expense, then I`m gonna get angry.

I was born before the NHS was invented and I was promised to be looked after from the cradle to the grave, if I paid into the system.

There is no government in the world whatever party, that can sustain giving out more in benefits than the income generated from taxes deducted from employment.
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Post by OpenMind »

Issie wrote: when you have a scenario where the British old people are treat like dog poo and are forced to sell their homes to have nursing care in their twilight years,


I watched the documentary about this earlier this year. It is absolutely disgusting what is going on here, and it's mostly illegal too. Another result of the shambles the health system is in today.
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Post by spot »

Issie wrote: No problem, can we all start again.?

I`m no racist and no BNP supporter and I have an interest in Spain, which is merely an interest and not a financial interest, therefore, I do read the papers and the problem in the Canary Islands has been ongoing for quite some time, hence I already had the urls on my computer.

I welcome immigrants who come here legally and who find employment and consequently then pay into the system.

I would also require that they must speak the English language after being here a while.

If they pay into the system, then logic tells me, there would be more money to be paid out to the genuine needy cases, but, when you have a scenario where the British old people are treat like dog poo and are forced to sell their homes to have nursing care in their twilight years, for the simple reason that the system cannot cope with the expense, then I`m gonna get angry.

I was born before the NHS was invented and I was promised to be looked after from the cradle to the grave, if I paid into the system.

There is no goverment in the world whatever party, that can sustain giving out more in benefits than the income generated from taxes deducted from employment.My understanding was that the NI contributions were to be invested by the government for the eventual benefit of the contributors. What has that to do with income generated from taxes? Any government raiding the NI investment fund would be no different to Robert Maxwell, may he rot.

By all means prevent the entry of illegal immigrants, how can anyone find that objectionable. By all means deport everyone from the country immediately who has no right of residence, how can anyone find that objectionable either. Your criticisms surely should be reserved for any government which fails to perform those socially desirable roles, not with any illegal immigrants themselves. The consequence of your focusing your anger on them is firstly that no pressure is put onto the organizations which can pull their socks up and do their job right, and secondly that it's so very very easy, when focusing on new arrivals in this country, to fail to distinguish with perfect clarity between illegal and legal immigrants. That leads toward a sad lack of neighbourliness.

As Pinky implied, would you also require that English settlers in Spain must speak the Spanish language after being there a while? Or is it one test for one group but another for another?
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My understanding was that the NI contributions were to be invested by the government for the eventual benefit of the contributors. What has that to do with income generated from taxes? Any government raiding the NI investment fund would be no different to Robert Maxwell, may he rot.

That was the idea in 1948, but the National Health service has outgrown its capabilities to provide a service to the number of people we have in this country plus medical science.....it is just another form of tax, like income tax and VAT.

If you work, then you pay into both systems, one pays for the health of the workers and healthy workers are capable of work, who then pay income tax..... and yes my government has badly let me down...either party, but, the government have allowed the human rights bill to be mis-used and thrown back at them and pander to Brussells....then, it is easier to play the racist card and make the population keep their mouths shut.

With regards to Spain, I will take this topic away from the problems of immigration in this country (UK)

Living under a dictatorship until 1975 and then joining the EU and adopting the Euro as the countrys currency, has brought benefits that lifted SOME of the peasants out of poverty, but the wages are still low in comparison to the cost of living.

There is no minimum wage as such, each section of workers negotiates their terms and conditions, and Spain relys heavily on tourism, but workers in this industry remain the lowest paid.

Immigrants are willing to work for even less and will undercut a Spanish worker, but the cost of living and housing is beyond the average Spaniards pocket, the rise in house prices can in some respect be credited to the Brits and other Nationals wanting luxury homes in Spain.

So, whilst the above has not answered your question, it may give you an insight as to why the Spanish do not want illegals....they welcome legal immigrants, who will pay into the system.

They also do not want to see their traditions being eroded daily by people not speaking Spanish and that also means the Brits, but being between the devil and the deep blue sea, they know that they cannot isolate themselves like in the Franco era, and any modern thinking young person has to speak English to flourish outside of Spain in todays climate....but that doesn`t mean they like it.

Finally, I will agree with you that brits or anyone else should speak the Spanish language and having made the effort to learn the lingo myself, enough to converse with an average Spaniard and survive in Spain, then I hold the same view about them as I do immigrants to this country.
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Post by spot »

Issie wrote: My understanding was that the NI contributions were to be invested by the government for the eventual benefit of the contributors. What has that to do with income generated from taxes? Any government raiding the NI investment fund would be no different to Robert Maxwell, may he rot.

That was the idea in 1948, but the National Health service has outgrown its capabilities to provide a service to the number of people we have in this country plus medical science.....it is just another form of tax, like income tax and VAT.Come on, you know what Beveridge laid down. The Health System was provided for from taxation, not from NI. NI payments were exclusively the employee contribution and the employer contribution toward the State Pension, and they neither of them ever went toward any other benefit at all. Taxation financed benefits, not NI contributions. They've been religiously hoarded as investments ever since and handed out as pension payments - not as benefits, ever. Neither conservative nor labour government has ever dared to steal from the cookie jar. Not even that woman who sold off the family silver dared to touch it.

Issie wrote: So, whilst the above has not answered your question, it may give you an insight as to why the Spanish do not want illegals....they welcome legal immigrants, who will pay into the system.Without wanting to harp on, does that leave "I would also require that they must speak the English language after being here a while" as a requirement in parity with what you would see as reasonable on the part of the Spanish, or not? Would you express yourself in the same terms to an English settler in Spain, or not?
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Post by Issie »

Quite frankly, I don`t have the time of day for people who go to Spain and cannot be bothered to learn the lingo.

I also don`t have the time of day for people who think that chicken and chips, plus a pint of beer for a euro, is their idea of Spain....

So, I`ll leave it at that..... for now.
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Post by spot »

Issie wrote: So, I`ll leave it at that..... for now.Then, to leave the sidetrack of Spain and return to the meat of the thread, why would you "also require that they must speak the English language after being here a while" where you would have no such firm requirement of the English in Spain?

I know a Polish lady who arrived in England in the late 1940s, whose English is utterly rudimentary and scarcely fit for her to shop in a greengrocer's with. Should she have been required to learn the language? Just as you, I see a benefit both to her and to her neighbours if she'd managed to pick sufficient up to talk about her attitudes and opinions. That's a long step from "require".
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Post by Issie »

Then, to leave the sidetrack of Spain and return to the meat of the thread, why would you "also require that they must speak the English language after being here a while" where you would have no such firm requirement of the English in Spain?

I never said that ....quote

Finally, I will agree with you that brits or anyone else should speak the Spanish language and having made the effort to learn the lingo myself, enough to converse with an average Spaniard and survive in Spain, then I hold the same view about them as I do immigrants to this country.

Sorry, I think we have got our wires crossed here.

I do and would insist that anyone from wherever settling in Spain are made to attend a language class and after a while, be made to take a test to prove their capabilities in conversing with a Spaniard....just as I would like an immigrant to be able to converse with me and not be allowed to live near me and continue to utter urdu after 20 years, what they do in their own home is their business, not mine, but I totally disagree when their language is the first one on the list and mine is not.....

I don`t play one rule for them and one for us.....that is double standards, and I try my hardest not to have such standards.
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Post by spot »

Issie wrote: I don`t play one rule for them and one for us.....that is double standards, and I try my hardest not to have such standards.I'm delighted. I still think you've ****ed the chances of half the East End of London with that entrance test, mind. I can't see Peggy Mitchell or her oafish lads getting far up the Costa del Crime on those terms.
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Post by Issie »

spot wrote: I'm delighted. I still think you've ****ed the chances of half the East End of London with that entrance test, mind. I can't see Peggy Mitchell or her oafish lads getting far up the Costa del Crime on those terms.
They cannot even speak English, so how the hell do you expect them to speak Spanish.?....

BTW, that was a joke, my OH is a Londoner.:)

When he asked me where I had put his strides, it took me quite some time to figure out, he meant his trousers :-2
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Post by Lulu2 »

SPOT says: "Your criticisms surely should be reserved for any government which fails to perform those socially desirable roles, not with any illegal immigrants themselves."



WHAT?

Of course my problem is with the government which chooses to overlook the actions of these criminals! HOWEVER....that in no way excuses the fact that they have (on their own initiative) broken FEDERAL LAWS and are, therefore, criminals!

How can anyone NOT blame them?:confused:
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Post by anastrophe »

OpenMind wrote: I watched the documentary about this earlier this year. It is absolutely disgusting what is going on here, and it's mostly illegal too. Another result of the shambles the health system is in today.


wait - am i reading this right? britain's nationalized/socialized health system is in shambles? that would be good information to have considering we have budding socialists of every stripe here in the US who want to nationalize our health care system.
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Post by anastrophe »

Scrat wrote: Funny Anastrophe. :thinking:



You told me just the other day that you couldn't afford the monthly payment to play an online game.




that is correct.





You also mentioned you lost you father recently.
actually, i mentioned recently that i had lost my father. but that loss was not recent, it was three years ago.





I don't mean to be insensitive (you have been where I am headed) here but I have to call you on this one.



Is there a connection?


er, no, not so far as i know. i've been against socialized medicine for a very long time.





I am not for socialized medicine but I am certainly for getting rid of this horrendous system we have now. The paperwork alone is crippling us.



I certainly hope you were not burdened with bills of your fathers passing that will make you have to sell your home like some people do.


no, my parents have been with kaiser most of their adult lives. i was with kaiser too until i hit 18. my father's health care was paid by their kaiser premiums. luckily, all things in balance, the costs were not enormous, as he didn't linger very long after the diagnosis of lung cancer (he died six weeks after the diagnosis). he had home hospice care for a few weeks, and that was it.



if you thought private health insurance had a horrendous burden of paperwork, wait until it's socialized. government bureaucracy inevitably involves even more tedious wastes of time.



our health care system is imperfect on many fronts, most of all the private insurance system. what woudl i propose? no insurance at all. health insurance isn't health insurance, it's illness insurance. sure, it's just a pleasant euphemism, but the fact is, it's like most insurance - a gambling system. you're betting that you'll need lots of expensive health care someday. the insurance company - the house - is betting they can take in more than they'll pay in the interval.



when health costs are "covered" by a low monthly payment, then there's no incentive to use the services wisely. why don't we have food insurance? i pay a fixed amount every month, and can then go to the grocery store and get whatever i want, in any amount i want. you can see the problem. we get people demanding MRI's and catscans at the first burning sensation below their heart. thousands of dollars are spent on procedures that are unnecessary.



well, those thousands of dollars have to come from somewhere. where do they come from? the house has to raise the ante, of course.



do you think the government would do any better, given a fresh revenue stream like health care to glom onto? i think not.



but we're far afield of racial crime in london.
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Post by OpenMind »

anastrophe wrote: wait - am i reading this right? britain's nationalized/socialized health system is in shambles? that would be good information to have considering we have budding socialists of every stripe here in the US who want to nationalize our health care system.


The problems started during Thatcher's Government. Restructuring the health system produced a top-heavy system. Labour then decided to give it specific targets to attain in order to receive further government funds. A stupid system in my mind.

Now we have overpaid managers, underpaid nurses, funds only going to those authorities that peerform well (with underperforming funds being denied the cash they need).

Somewhere along the line, the balance sheet stopped balancing up. I suspect that this would have something to do with the illegal immigrants receiving treatment. Other than that, health is a very costly product and the budgets just don't meet teh costs. Yup, it's a shambles.

The original system did fine for years. Government meddling has put paid to that.

I think that we need a system that provides a substantial safety net providing basic healthcare for those who can't afford it (providing they are paying their contributions). Others should be required to take out medical insurance. Perhaps we would take better care of our health then. The individual has to take some responsibility for their own health.

There are pros and cons with privatisation. But, ultimately, competition would force down the cost of healthcare products.
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Post by Accountable »

anastrophe wrote: [...] why don't we have food insurance? i pay a fixed amount every month, and can then go to the grocery store and get whatever i want, in any amount i want. [...]
Ooooo! I like that idea. Now there's a good thread subject to debate!
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Post by spot »

Lulu2 wrote: SPOT says: "Your criticisms surely should be reserved for any government which fails to perform those socially desirable roles, not with any illegal immigrants themselves."



WHAT?

Of course my problem is with the government which chooses to overlook the actions of these criminals! HOWEVER....that in no way excuses the fact that they have (on their own initiative) broken FEDERAL LAWS and are, therefore, criminals!

How can anyone NOT blame them?:confused:It's an interesting chicken-and-egg question, that. From where they come, they are breaking no law. They are not criminals until they set foot in the country that has laws prohibiting their arrival, or until they stay beyond their legal residency. The immigrants break no law before their arrival. - they are criminalized by their arrival or by overstaying their agreed period of residence, not by their departure from their original place of abode. Had the government enforced its own laws of residency, the immigrant could not have broken it. The illegal immigrants become criminalized by the inaction of the government which subsequently invokes the law by declaring them criminal while refusing to remove them from the country. I think in those circumstances it's fair to hold the government culpable, not the person that the passive government criminalizes but takes no action against.
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Post by Accountable »

spot wrote: It's an interesting chicken-and-egg question, that. From where they come, they are breaking no law. They are not criminals until they set foot in the country that has laws prohibiting their arrival, or until they stay beyond their legal residency. The immigrants break no law before their arrival. - they are criminalized by their arrival or by overstaying their agreed period of residence, not by their departure from their original place of abode. Had the government enforced its own laws of residency, the immigrant could not have broken it. The illegal immigrants become criminalized by the inaction of the government which subsequently invokes the law by declaring them criminal while refusing to remove them from the country. I think in those circumstances it's fair to hold the government culpable, not the person that the passive government criminalizes but takes no action against.
What kind of convaluted crap is that? Because we don't lock our doors, it's our fault we're burglarized?



If I move into an apartment, then stop paying rent, it's the landlord's fault not mine??



Granted, it chaps my ass that my gov't isn't enforcing its own laws, but that doesn't make the criminals any less criminal. It only makes the administrators painfully worthy of the boot.
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Post by spot »

Accountable wrote: What kind of convaluted crap is that? Because we don't lock our doors, it's our fault we're burglarized?



If I move into an apartment, then stop paying rent, it's the landlord's fault not mine??In both your examples, the act is illegal where and when the person commits it. That's the distinction I was playing with. I still feel that there are good reasons, outlined in this thread, for holding the government responsible rather than the black guy with the feeble use of English. One has power, the other has none.
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Post by Issie »

spot wrote: It's an interesting chicken-and-egg question, that. From where they come, they are breaking no law. They are not criminals until they set foot in the country that has laws prohibiting their arrival, or until they stay beyond their legal residency. The immigrants break no law before their arrival. - they are criminalized by their arrival or by overstaying their agreed period of residence, not by their departure from their original place of abode. Had the government enforced its own laws of residency, the immigrant could not have broken it. The illegal immigrants become criminalized by the inaction of the government which subsequently invokes the law by declaring them criminal while refusing to remove them from the country. I think in those circumstances it's fair to hold the government culpable, not the person that the passive government criminalizes but takes no action against.


Sorry, but any immigrant without paperwork who leaves one country to go to another, KNOWS from the moment they start their journey that they will be breaking the law on the arrival of their destination point.

anastrophe the NHS is another topic, one which I will gladly contribute my opinion, having worked all my life for the NHS, if you think it would be a good topic.

The principle of the NHS remains the same today as it was on its birth, however, demands placed upon the system, medical science, the cost of drugs, mis-management and the amount of people using the system, including immigrants....all these factors have helped to bring about the situated we are facing today.

TB and childhood Rickets had been virtually wiped out in the UK because of better education, living conditions and a mass vaccination programme, but, now because of immigrants TB is on the increase and immigrant children (because of the religous dress) are now being diagnosed in the UK with rickets....both TB and Rickets require medical resources, both pulled off the NHS....and this is just one example.

For anyone who doesn`t know, we need sunshine for the body to make Vitamin D, this vitamin cannot be stored by the body and it is essential for the body to absorb the calcium from our food....calcium builds strong bones, lack of strong bones is the reason for Rickets.

I`ll come back on the immigration issue in a moment.:)
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Post by OpenMind »

Accountable wrote: What kind of convaluted crap is that? Because we don't lock our doors, it's our fault we're burglarized?



If I move into an apartment, then stop paying rent, it's the landlord's fault not mine??



Granted, it chaps my ass that my gov't isn't enforcing its own laws, but that doesn't make the criminals any less criminal. It only makes the administrators painfully worthy of the boot.


Spot may have a point.

Arabic does not have a word to convey the sense of ownership. The verb 'to have' does not translate into Arabic. Their culture considers that everything is to be shared. Some countries have completely different customs to us.

So, you might say that ignorance is no excuse. That may be a fair argument. But, in our country at least, the laws have become so convoluted, it is impossible to keep up with them. Add to this the cost of solicitors' fees, most of our citizens cannot afford to keep abreast of changes in the law.

We do have the Citizens' Advice Bureau. But a working man has to forego wages to get their advice.

I blame the Government and the EU also for our present immigration problem.
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Post by Issie »

So, are you saying we should not place any onus on the illegal that sets off without the relevant documentation, and place all the blame on the government.?

Whilst the government and the stupid EU bureaucrats in Brussels are to take the majority of the blame, it is totally a load of toss to take the responsibility away from the immigrant, for coming here illegally.

Why do they come to the UK and not other European countries,? it is quite simply because of our generous benefit system, but when that system then makes the indigenous populations standard of living go downhill, then it wants stopping and they want removing and more border controls put in place.

We pander to the civil liberty groups, human rights brigade and all the other Christian “do gooders”, which makes the process of removing them become a long drawn out, expensive process in the British courts…..all costing money that could be channelled into the NHS.

We should do what Spain did a few years ago….round them all up, and dump them back (in Spain’s case) in the Moroccan dessert and say “ here you are, these belong to you” and tell the EU to bog off.

Take the case of the Brazilian who was shot in London, and whilst it was tragic, we have allowed a “mini shrine” to be built for him and the wheels of proving a case for prosecution against the officers involved, to be put in motion.

We had members of the Brazilian government over, plus his family, plus the lawyers, and I’ve no doubt the British government have paid an extortionate amount of money to his family….but, hang on a minute, 52 innocent people were blown to bits and others injured the day before. Do we give them the publicity that we afford to him ?….and at the end of the day, he was here illegally, but we allow lawyers to sue the government over an illegal.

It is irrelevant whether he ran or jumped over barriers…the fact is, he was here illegally and he knew it and refused to stop when he was asked too…. consequently he lost his life.

Further back, I gave you information about the Canary Islands and the illegals (not immigrants) who have invaded the Islands. Do you believe they will stay in Spain? They will use the Canary Islands as jumping point into Europe and Britain.

The majority have come from Senegal and they know that Spain has no repatriation agreement with Senegal, so they destroy their papers.

So, we must ask ourselves why do they want to leave Senegal and pay the mafiosa who deal in human cargo, money to take the risk on the Atlantic Ocean in a vessel not fit to sail on a lake. ?

A few years ago, Senegal had an aid package of approx 250 million Dollars, based over 5 years and the IMF wrote off all the country’s debt…..conditions were placed with the aid package and one of those conditions was that all the peanut farms should be state owned.

The peanut farmers who make up approx 70% of the population have not been paid by the Government for their crop.

The Government cannot account where the aid has gone, but they ride around in limos and banquet every night….they are corrupt and it serves their purpose to keep the people poor, while they siphon off aid intended for the people into Swiss bank accounts.

Take Nigeria, a few years ago the USA had a surplus of GI modified crops and they wanted to give Nigeria the surplus to help feed the people, but the government brainwashed the leaders of the tribes that this gift from the USA was poisoned, and they refused the offer…. The USA had to destroy the rotting crops that would have kept people alive ….consequently, thousands died

Live Aid 21 years ago, yet some of these countries are in a worse state today despite the millions of dollars worth of drugs, contraceptives, food and money poured into them.

Well, I say look at the countries leaders before looking at me for sympathy.
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Post by OpenMind »

In one word. Yes. Their governments as well as our governments.

These people would not bother trying to come here if they knew that their efforts would land them back where they started from. The reason they can is the fault of our governments. The reason they do is the fault of their own governments.

Perhaps their governments are more corrupt than our own, but ours are corrupt nonetheless in my opinion.

Cash aid from the IMF rarely shows good results without manipulation of the figures. As for Band Aid, Live Aid, and so on, I always said to those around me right from the start that they would be ineffective because of the corrupt governments.
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Post by spot »

Thank you Issie, it didn't take long to unveil your dark side, did it.

Here's a compliment for you - you don't sound remotely like a pensioner, you sound like a ranting twenty-something who doesn't want to admit her age. Not many pensioners can come up with "then I`m gonna get angry" or discuss who was "bothered to learn the lingo".

To be honest, I've not heard many pensioners declaim that "I was born before the NHS was invented and I was promised to be looked after from the cradle to the grave, if I paid into the system" while being so utterly ignorant of the National Insurance system, either.
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Spot wrote: To be honest, I've not heard many pensioners declaim that "I was born before the NHS was invented


It's feasible though, Spot. 59 at least.:D
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OpenMind wrote: It's feasible though, Spot. 59 at least.:DAnyone capable of writing "he was here illegally and he knew it and refused to stop when he was asked too…. consequently he lost his life" deserves spitting in the face of, and should the chance occur I'll take it. It is the most disgusting lie that he refused to stop, or that he was asked to stop, or that he was ordered to stop. The man was killed without any warning whatever, without having run, without having vaulted gates, without even knowing he was being followed, and he was surveilled and followed all the way until he had reached a location where the "shoot to kill" orders could be invoked. And "Issie" says it's his own fault he's dead? Issie, pensioner or (far more likely) not, you're a pernicious blight on the nation.

Oh no, I'm not a supporter of the BNP, I'm a laydee?

You're an evil git, whatever you keep in your underwear.
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spot wrote: Anyone capable of writing "he was here illegally and he knew it and refused to stop when he was asked too…. consequently he lost his life" deserves spitting in the face of, and should the chance occur I'll take it. It is the most disgusting lie that he refused to stop, or that he was asked to stop, or that he was ordered to stop. The man was killed without any warning whatever, without having run, without having vaulted gates, without even knowing he was being followed, and he was surveilled and followed all the way until he had reached a location where the "shoot to kill" orders could be invoked. And "Issie" says it's his own fault he's dead? Issie, pensioner or (far more likely) not, you're a pernicious blight on the nation.



Oh no, I'm not a supporter of the BNP, I'm a laydee?



You're an evil git, whatever you keep in your underwear.


I have to admit that I didn't know the full truth of it myself until you posted it. A knee-jerk reaction that we shouldn't have to expect from highly(?) trained officers. There have been too many of those lately.
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spot wrote: In both your examples, the act is illegal where and when the person commits it. That's the distinction I was playing with. I still feel that there are good reasons, outlined in this thread, for holding the government responsible rather than the black guy with the feeble use of English. One has power, the other has none.


bollocks. why throw in the 'black guy' reference? what does his skin color have to do with it?



the burglar isn't a burglar until he passes from the outside of the apartment to the inside. while standing on the threshold, he's not a criminal. once he crosses the threshold, he's "criminalized". it took HIS affirmative action to take that step. just as - in the case of the united states - when an person residing in mexico is standing on the mexican side of the fence at the border, he's not a criminal, but the moment he affirmatively climbs over (or burrows under, or whatever means to violate) the barrier, he becomes a criminal. there is intent involved, to either cross the threshold into someone's apartment uninvited, or to cross a border uninvited.
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The act he's committing isn't illegal in - given your instance - Mexico. The act the burglar is committing is illegal on both sides of the threshold. I do think it's a point, even if nobody else does.
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OpenMind wrote: Spot may have a point.

Arabic does not have a word to convey the sense of ownership. The verb 'to have' does not translate into Arabic. Their culture considers that everything is to be shared. Some countries have completely different customs to us.


if that's the case, then why has the family Saud not simply given us oil, rather than charging for it?



the cheek. apparently they don't understand their own lack of understanding of the concept of ownership.
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anastrophe wrote: bollocks. why throw in the 'black guy' reference? what does his skin color have to do with it?Oh... I didn't see that. Nobody, but nobody, would make a fuss if the illegal immigrant were a white South African, or a New Zealander, or an Aussie, or an Rhodesian farmer expelled from his farm. I know this for an utter certainty, living here as I do.
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spot wrote: The act he's committing isn't illegal in - given your instance - Mexico. The act the burglar is committing is illegal on both sides of the threshold. I do think it's a point, even if nobody else does.


try again. until the burglar crosses the threshold, he has committed no crime. period. until the mexican citizen crosses the border, he has committed no crime.



you're equivocating.
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spot wrote: Oh... I didn't see that. Nobody, but nobody, would make a fuss if the illegal immigrant were a white South African, or a New Zealander, or an Aussie, or an Rhodesian farmer expelled from his farm. I know this for an utter certainty, living here as I do.


really? where's all that high minded indignation you showed when i mentioned 'the palestinians wanting to kill israelis'. so, you speak for all your fellow countrymen now? generalizations are acceptable rhetoric for spot, but not for others.



ya kill me, buddy.
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anastrophe wrote: if that's the case, then why has the family Saud not simply given us oil, rather than charging for it?My understanding of Saudi society - having entertained a Saud for a while - is that it is considered proper to the point of being a duty for the Royal Family to ensure that all adult Saudis are provided for from the largesse of oil sales abroad. The oil isn't "owned" within Saudi society, it is the property of all.
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anastrophe wrote: really? where's all that high minded indignation you showed when i mentioned 'the palestinians wanting to kill israelis'. so, you speak for all your fellow countrymen now? generalizations are acceptable rhetoric for spot, but not for others.



ya kill me, buddy.I'm not generalizing, I'm making a statement about the opinion of the white English, and I'm perfectly correct about it. You could hold a poll and expect 100%.
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anastrophe wrote: try again. until the burglar crosses the threshold, he has committed no crime. period. until the mexican citizen crosses the border, he has committed no crime.



you're equivocating.Come on, that has nothing to do with what I wrote. I agree with both of your sentences but they're not my sentences.

additional thought: in this country, the burglar has commited an offence before crossing the threshold. At least in most circumstances, and possibly in all.

edit: I did try to post this a second time (rather than edit-add) but vBulletin seems too clever to allow the second post, it got merged back. My apologies.
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spot wrote: My understanding of Saudi society - having entertained a Saud for a while - is that it is considered proper to the point of being a duty for the Royal Family to ensure that all adult Saudis are provided for from the largesse of oil sales abroad. The oil isn't "owned" within Saudi society, it is the property of all.


so 'all' means 'all' unless you mean 'some'. fair enough.
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