$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Open or closed borders?
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by RedGlitter »

Homeland Security Scrapping, Replacing Sub-Par Virtual Fence Along Arizona-Mexico Border

Wednesday, April 23, 2008





TUCSON, Arizona —

The government will replace its highly touted "virtual fence" on the Arizona-Mexico border with new towers, radars, cameras and computer software, scrapping the brand-new $20 million system because it doesn't work sufficiently, officials said. The move comes just two months after Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff officially accepted the completed fence from The Boeing Co.

With the decision, Customs and Border Protection officials are acknowledging that the pilot program to detect illegal immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border doesn't work well enough to keep or to continue tweaking.

Chertoff accepted the program on Feb. 22 after Boeing apparently resolved software glitches. But less than a week later, the Government Accountability Office told Congress it "did not fully meet user needs and the project's design will not be used as the basis for future" developments.

The project is made up of nine towers along a 28-mile (45-kilometer) section of border straddling the border crossing at Sasabe, southwest of Tucson. DHS will put in about 17 new towers, some holding just communications gear, others featuring new cameras or new radars, at an undetermined cost.

The department also is spending at least $45 million to have a customized computer program written so the collected data is more quickly and efficiently fed to Border Patrol agents.

Although the system is operating today, it hasn't come close to meeting the Border Patrol's goals, said Kelly Good, deputy director of the Secure Border Initiative program office in Washington.

"Probably not to the level that Border Patrol agents on the ground thought that they were going to get. So it didn't meet their expectations."

Agents began using the virtual fence last December, and the towers have resulted in more than 3,000 detentions since, said Greg Giddens, executive director of the SBI program office in Washington.

But that's just a fraction of the several hundred illegal immigrants believed to cross through the Sasabe corridor daily.

The towers, equipped with radars, optical and thermal imaging cameras and other sensors, are supposed to show nearby Border Patrol agents a complete picture of the border on the laptop computers in their patrol trucks. But the system's less-than-optimal results have been heavily criticized by politicians and others.

The virtual fence is part of a national plan to use physical barriers and high-tech detection capabilities to secure the Mexican border — and ultimately the Canadian boundary too.

Boeing used off-the-shelf software and other equipment initially to get the system up and running quickly.

"Boeing has delivered a system that the Border Patrol currently is operating 24 hours a day," Boeing spokeswoman Deborah Bosick said. She declined further immediate comment.

The pilot project was not intended to be the final, state-of-the-art system for catching illegal immigrants, Giddens said.

The problems with the system involved not just the computer software but the radar and satellite links used to send the information. All will be replaced with different types.
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;845491 wrote: Kills me.



If we really wanted to we could secure the border over night.

All you need is to let the US military train on the southern border, give them rules of engagement that allow them to shoot intruders beyond a certain point across the border. And to leave the bodies where they drop.

Our illegal immigration problem from the southern border will end over night.


If there's an easy way and a bloody way then there's only one choice isn't there.
hoppy
Posts: 4561
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:58 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by hoppy »

Jester;845491 wrote: Kills me.



If we really wanted to we could secure the border over night.

All you need is to let the US military train on the southern border, give them rules of engagement that allow them to shoot intruders beyond a certain point across the border. And to leave the bodies where they drop.

Our illegal immigration problem from the southern border will end over night.


A well layed out mine field would work. Once planted, not much manpower needed.
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;846278 wrote: Bryn, I wasnt advocating we do that, just making the point that if we really ment biz on our southern border we could stop illegal immigration very quickly and easily.



The truth is we dont really want to stop it and most dont even want to control it.

Personally I think we ought to close the border, search everyone and every container that comes through there at the expense of the Importer, and make sure evey truck that came through met DOT standards for both drivers and truck, or it sits at the mexican side and rots till it does.

My solution is simpler though, still bloody simple... Anyone can enter the US with a thumbprint and a back ground check, free of charge to them. If they commit any crime in the US (as simple as driving without a license for example... We round them up, give them a standard parachute, and drop them by air from 4000 feet off a static line in the state of thier origin. If they try to reenter the country they can returned once only, from 4000 feet, no static line, no chute.

If they commit a violent crime, any and all blood relatives of the offender are deported by car over the border and the offender is executed.

I'd close the border with a 15 foot tall double wall chain link fence, seperated by a minefield 200 yards deep. Anybody caught on the inside wall is fair game to be shot.

Illegal immigration would stop in a year, and the non criminals on our southern border would be welcomed to the US as law abiding immigrants.

Using the US military to patrol and handle the air deportation woudlnt increase the cost... we could just shift them form the european theater, the chain link fence is relatively inexpensive, and we can use the current police forces to monitor the criminal element, and the current border patrol to conduct felony captures of criminals in the US.

If we do this by thumbprint and make it free to the immigrant then the illegal transport of persons over the border by the criminal element on the other side is reduced as well. Its safer for the law abiding immigrant even in their own country.

To get it started I'd order the fence built first, a 90 day amnesty to any immigrant that can prove they have been here legally or illegally continuously for two full years, or anyone who actually can prove they own property (deed). A huge show of force as the military deploys for thier part, and I'd move the border patrol to guard only entrance/exit checkpoints.

To save money though we could use some sort of catepault instead of airdropping them, still use the chute Idea though, but its not as accurate to gettign them back to the state they originated from.

Oh and I'd stop paying the mexican government aide as well.


You're obviously correct that no-one in office wants to prevent, or even slow down, illegal immigration.

Your solution still seems too complex and puts the onus on the law enforcement agencies to catch them.

Pass a law that anyone found to have employed an illegal immigrant, even if only as casual labour, will be jailed. Where the employer is a company, the definition of employed includes not only the immediate manager but each person in the chain of command up to and including the CEO and every person in HR involved in taking that person on up to and including the VP of Personnel.

It's already been shown that, when an area has, or even threatens, a crackdown on the employment of illegal immigrants, then they move elsewhere. Make it nationwide and total and they will leave because it is economically infeasible to stay.
FUBAR
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:33 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by FUBAR »

True. If the law dealt more harshly on the employers there would be no illegal immigrants as why would a manager run the risk. It is a bit strange though that a country built on immigrants is complaining about immigration. After all, if they disappeared who would pick the crops or wash the dishes? All the low paid would demand more pay as these illegals help keep pay lower than if they were gone.
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by RedGlitter »

FUBAR;847750 wrote: True. If the law dealt more harshly on the employers there would be no illegal immigrants as why would a manager run the risk. It is a bit strange though that a country built on immigrants is complaining about immigration. After all, if they disappeared who would pick the crops or wash the dishes? All the low paid would demand more pay as these illegals help keep pay lower than if they were gone.


As rightly they should, Fubar. All people need a living wage. That's why that argument goes out the window. Americans don't want to pick berries for $5 an hour for darned good reason. And it isn't laziness or pride either.

It is not our fault that Mexico pays sh*t. It is not our place to help them. (Although I'm sure someone will now bring up the current war and ask why USA is helping *that*)

Yes it is ironic about the immigrant thing, however I beg to say that the immigrants who came to America in older days were more respectful and wanted to become part of America instead of turning it all into Little Italy or whatever.

Getting back to the main point though, the answer is NO ONE. Employers would be forced to hire Americans and pay a decent rate. If they can't afford that then they had better start washing dishes themselves.
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Accountable »

Beat me to it, Red. I couldn't have said it better. :yh_flag
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable;847765 wrote: Beat me to it, Red. I couldn't have said it better. :yh_flag


Thanks, Acc! :yh_flag
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Accountable »

Where's the incentive? If I'm a criminal alien I'm not getting fingerprinted. I'm doing fine the way I am. Ten years is too long to even think about. I'm more concerned with next week's paycheck.
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;847948 wrote: Ok, theres a lot more to it than forcing the empolyers to do what the government should have done all along, and employers have enough to deal with as it is.

I used to be for employer fines for illegal immigrant hiring, but until the government puts a valid method for determining who is and who is not an illegal alien then thats unfair to push it on the backs of the employers.

My next issue is that if we dont have immigration then the US is in population decline. At .8 births per deaths per the 1990 census, and the birthrate is expected to decline further and be nearly .6 by 2020.

Besides that I have a difficult time telling someone they can't live the american dream if they are willing to work and not criminally take what they want.

I'm for balanced, legal immigration of quality persons, who have a work ethic and are not criminal in their actions. So we have to figure a way to get the good ones and have them contribute to the american way, towards citizenship in the normal methods.

I'm not necessarily for an amnesty program, but some sort of amnesty program to those here, who even though they may techincally be a criminal, have contributed to our society without violent criminal intent.

My plan isnt complicated at all, its rather simple a clean thumbprint gets you a guestworker visa, stay for ten years or so under the guest plan, apply for citizenship, take the test and we have ten years of background on US soil to check your criminal record, if any. Mess up inside the time frame and you get launched...




What's the problem? To be employed you have to supply a social security number, prospective employer contacts the tax office with SSID, name address and, if relevant, primary employment details. If the details match then the tax office says valid and the employer is in the clear - no match or doubt then further checks can be carried out before employment is allowed. I would imagine that the tax office would wish to contact the individual named - if he is currently unemployed to confirm cessation of benefits and if he is already employed to confirm the arrangements for taxation of dual employment. This would also provide a check for identity theft.

Certainly, the US, in common with many other western economies, is reliant on immigration to keep the wheels turning. What you (and we) need to do is keep them out of the black economy. Yes, your plan is fine, once the illegal immigrants are flushed out of the system but I do not see that it would make current illegals come out of the woodwork or deter new illegals from entering - if they're not in the system then they cannot be kicked out unless they're caught and no-one expects to be caught.
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;849803 wrote: Well, they have many, many false I.D's they use... mostly, and the system isnt fool proof in other ways.


They can have as many false papers as they like but if they don't load them onto the IRS central computer they won't be worth the paper they're printed on. Get around the problem of identity theft by cross reference to the original individual identified in the IRS database and fake IDs are useless.

Jester;849803 wrote: But, if the employer does his part and does the paperwork and later the employee is found to be illegal then the employer must not be held accountable. Using the thumbprint is better... enter the country scan your thumb, on hire scan your thumb, instant internet government approval to work. The thumbprint mwthod illiminates identity theft.


As I said, if the employer performs the check and is given the OK then he's in the clear.



Jester;849803 wrote: I agree, keep them out of the black ecomony, and make sure they do not have a criminal back ground, then if they get one here, get rid of them.

The deterrant from entering is the US military with orders to kill if you cross X fence line.

Well, we need to tighten the noose for finding the illegals, any and all encounters with the law to an individual should be processed through ID. Scan the thumb, if they can't prove US citizenship, and they arent in the legal guest worker program, then they are taken on the spot and deported. Any and all employment, schooling, any state or government registration process, anywhere one might have to show I.D., if you cant show US citizenship or scan as a guest worker, yer gone.


Back to the killing *again*? It is not necessary.

Jester;849803 wrote: I'd actually limit it further and make thumbscanning a requirement for driving and then at the gas pump you must show your drivers license to fill up any more than 2 gallons of gas for an auto and 1/2 Gallon per motorcycle.

That ought to limit their travel as well and keep them from illegally drving a vehicle.

And Im for giving guest workers a legal drivers license under current state laws for citizens.


If they are in the country legally then of course they should have the right to drive - how do you find work if you cannot move?
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15792
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Bryn Mawr »

Jester;850108 wrote: Yes the method of lethel force to protect our borders is necessary. Otherwise when the opposing group is large enough and angry enough they will walk right in and take, plunder and kill. Surely you dont disagree with protecting our own borders? Do you not defend your home from invasion with lethel force if needed?

Theres a lot of controversy here about what the dirvers license allows folks to do , its very much a univeral form of ID making lots of thing legal since most states issue drivers license based on birth certificate and valid social securuty number. Thats why I mentioned the dirver license issue.



I think the thumbprint is easier, you dont have to fold it up and carry it in your wallet, and if either you or your documents are seperated you can always have yer thumb printed! No 'lost' documents!

Heck a laptop I use at one place has a thumbscanner in it to access the datase, if a lap top can have that, then it can be linked to a data base soemwhere to instantly confirm ID, and nationality and immigration status. Its just quicker and easier.


If you make it uneconomic for them to come to stay then they won't try in the first place and I find you scenario of massed hoards of starving looters invading the country unrealistic and something to be dealt with on a one off basis - not with concentration camp type fences and massed guns. Yes, the UK would defend our borders from invasion using force but illegal immigrants are criminals, not invaders and, over here, we use the police.

Drivers licences are just that, licences to drive. Because the government has been unable to force through legislation to require everybody to carry ID cards they are trying to use the drivers licence as a substitute which it is not.

If you want a Police State then do it properly and make it illegal to be out without your government control papers and, whilst you're at it, fingerprint and take DNA samples from everyone before they can get a job. If the people don't want to give the government that much power then don't try to bring it in be the back door.
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

$20 Million Fence Not Good Enough. New One Going Up.

Post by Accountable »

jimbo;850129 wrote: it seems to me the only people in America with any right to complain about illegal immigrants are the red/native American indians , all you guys are illegals that took the land and wealth by force and now you got it cushy you don't want any one else to have a share of the wealth :thinking::thinking:







talk about the kettle calling the pot black :wah::wah:
So that makes you the skillet, right? :D You forget where we came from originally, England.

Return to “Immigration”