Denmark's Queen Accused

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Lulu2
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Lulu2 »

I'm sure this could go in several existing threads, but I can't find them. I wondered if anyone had heard of this?

“Danish Queen Masterminded Muhammad Cartoon Affair”

From the desk of Hjörtur Gudmundsson on Mon, 2006-10-02 03:08

Queen Margrethe II of Denmark was the villain behind a hate campaign against Islam and Muslims which culminated in the Danish Cartoon affair. At least that is what some Danish imams maintain. On 30 September 2005 the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten published twelve cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. According to the imams it was the Queen who instigated this when in April 2005 she urged the Danish people to resist Islam.

This allegation was made to Arab newspapers, officials and politicians by Danish imams, touring the Middle East nine months ago in order to stir up hatred and violence against Denmark. The imams claimed Margrethe had urged the Danes to fight the Muslim minority in the country.

This information was revealed last Summer by the Danish Foreign Ministry, which had been informed by Det Dansk-Egyptiske Dialoginstitut, the Danish-Egyptian Dialogue Institute. The imams also claimed that the Danish government and the Danish people were behind the hate campaign. Hanna Ziadeh, the media researcher for the Det Dansk-Egyptiske Dialoginstitut, said the imams’ aim was to make the entire Danish people responsible for the Muhammad cartoons.

The imams also told the Islamic world that their voice was excluded from the Danish media and that more “horrible reviles” against Islam were being planned in Denmark, including blasphemous films and threats to burn down mosques. Ziadeh said the information he gathered was only from about ten interviews given by the imams to as many large Middle Eastern newspapers. However, the imams talked to many more Arab media, including several TV stations. Only a small part of the false information which the imams spread in the Middle East is actually known in the West.

The imams have consistently claimed that they only told the truth during their tour and that false information in the interviews are the responsibility of the journalists who wrote them. Ziadeh, however, says that the cases of false information are so numerous that they cannot be explained as being merely mistakes made by the journalists. In the interviews he also discerns a pattern which makes the imams’ denial untrustworthy.

According to Hanna Ziadeh “The avowed aim of the imams was to create huge indignation in the Muslim world in order to mobilize broad public protests which would eventually force Jyllands-Posten and the Danish government to apologize. But the cartoons alone were obviously not brutal enough. Therefore the imams were forced to underline that the affair was more than just some drawings in a single newspaper on one specific day. This had to be part of a systematic insult including an offensive film and a censorship of the Koran and there had to be a government and an entire nation behind this hate campaign against Islam and Muslims.”

The campaign of the hatemongering Muslim religious leaders against Denmark and Jyllands-Posten is not over yet. Last August the Egyptian Grand Imam, Sayyed Tantawi, said the newspaper should be closed down and its editor, Carsten Juste, imprisoned for three years. According to Tantawi, who is the spiritual leader of one billion Sunni Muslims, Fleming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s former cultural editor who commissioned the Muhammad cartoons, should suffer the shame of being depicted as a pig. The Grand Imam said the cartoon affair had nothing to do with freedom of expression, but the freedom to be presumptuous. “In the West you must understand that you cannot treat prophets in the same way as presidents or other ordinary people,” Tantawi told the Danish daily Berlingske Tidende.

According to a poll produced by Rambøll Management one year after the Danish cartoons were published, 53% of the Danes still believe Jyllands-Posten did nothing wrong by publishing the cartoons, while 38% think the cartoons should never have been published and the others are not sure. In a similar poll last November (which was before Muslims began rioting, burning down embassies and boycotting Danish products) 54% said it was the right decision to publish the cartoons while 25% said it was not.

Another poll, published in early September, says that 57% of the Danish people expect another crisis similar to the cartoon affair to take place within the next five years. The poll also shows that, while a few months back 50% thought Islam and democracy could be reconciled, today only one third thinks this is possible. A vast majority of the Danes want tighter immigration laws. According to yet another recent poll one in four Danes is more negative towards Islam and Muslims in Denmark than before the cartoon affair.

And...in another view....

Queen Margrethe II of Denmark has said her country needs to find a "counter-balance" to Islamic fundamentalism, regardless of the opprobium such a stance provokes abroad.

The Danish government has already been accused of fuelling xenophobia by introducing measures which effectively closed the country to asylum-seekers.

But in overtly political passages from an official biography published yesterday Queen Margrethe makes comments certain to complicate her nation's relationship with Muslims.

She said: "We are being challenged by Islam these years. Globally as well as locally. There is something impressive about people for whom religion imbues their existence, from dusk to dawn, from cradle to grave. There are also Christians who feel this way.

"There is something endearing about people who give themselves up completely to their faith. But there is likewise something frightening about such a totality, which also is a feature of Islam.

"A counterbalance has to be found, and one has to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on you. For there are some things for which one should display no tolerance. And when we are tolerant, we must know whether it is because of convenience or conviction."

The Queen, who turns 65 tomorrow and has reigned since 1972, wields no political power but does occasionally comment on political issues.

Denmark has seriously limited immigration in the past three years and the anti-immigrant Danish People's Party, an ally of the centre-Right government, has pushed through laws making it harder to bring in foreign spouses or qualify for asylum.

The queen told her biographer, Annelise Bistrup, that she understood how disaffected young Muslims might find refuge in religion. This tendency should be fought by encouraging Muslims to learn Danish so they could integrate better, she said.

"We should not be content with living next to each other. We should rather live together."

In the original version of this story, relying on a translation provided by an international news agency, the Telegraph quoted Queen Margrethe as saying "We have to show our opposition to Islam". But the correct translation should be "counter-balance". The story was re-published on Feb 16, 2006 to reflect that.

“Danish Queen Masterminded Muhammad Cartoon Affair”

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1403



Thoughts?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Lulu2
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Lulu2 »

I'm bumping this, because I think it's important. Anyone in Europe should know what's involved here...and anyone in the States should pay attention.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
gmc
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by gmc »

Lulu2 wrote: I'm bumping this, because I think it's important. Anyone in Europe should know what's involved here...and anyone in the States should pay attention.



What is it you think is involved here? A bunch of fundamentalist muslims try and stir up hatred against europe? It's a problem for moderate muslims living in european countries to worry about as they are likely to be the target if the locals get annoyed at muslims. It's hardly a threat to western democracy.
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Bill Sikes
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Bill Sikes »

Lulu2 wrote: I'm sure this could go in several existing threads, but I can't find them. I wondered if anyone had heard of this?

“Danish Queen Masterminded Muhammad Cartoon Affair”

From the desk of Hjörtur Gudmundsson on Mon, 2006-10-02 03:08

Queen Margrethe II of Denmark was the villain behind a hate campaign against Islam and Muslims which culminated in the Danish Cartoon affair. At least that is what some Danish imams maintain. On 30 September 2005 the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten published twelve cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. According to the imams it was the Queen who instigated this when in April 2005 she urged the Danish people to resist Islam.

This allegation was made to Arab newspapers, officials and politicians by Danish imams, touring the Middle East nine months ago in order to stir up hatred and violence against Denmark. The imams claimed Margrethe had urged the Danes to fight the Muslim minority in the country.

[snip]

“Danish Queen Masterminded Muhammad Cartoon Affair”

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1403



Thoughts?



Sounds to me like a lot of self-serving people stirring up trouble. Perhaps "some

Danish imams" should be deported, and some journalists.
pantsonfire321@aol.com
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by pantsonfire321@aol.com »

for a peaceful religion they sure do kill a lot of people .:lips:
Can go from 0 - to bitch in 3.0 seconds .:D







Smile people :yh_bigsmi







yep, this bitch bites back .;)
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Lulu2
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Lulu2 »

"It's a problem for moderate muslims living in european countries to worry about as they are likely to be the target if the locals get annoyed at muslims. It's hardly a threat to western democracy."

What's involved here is yet another attempt to stir the pot of hatred and discontent. I completely disagree that it's a problem for moderate muslims...it's a problem for every Dane and soon it'll be a problem for everyone who ignores incidents like these.

They're not going away. They're going to escalate.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
twizzel
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by twizzel »

Lulu2 wrote: I'm sure this could go in several existing threads, but I can't find them. I wondered if anyone had heard of this?

“Danish Queen Masterminded Muhammad Cartoon Affair”

From the desk of Hjörtur Gudmundsson on Mon, 2006-10-02 03:08

Queen Margrethe II of Denmark was the villain behind a hate campaign against Islam and Muslims which culminated in the Danish Cartoon affair. At least that is what some Danish imams maintain. On 30 September 2005 the Danish daily Jyllands-Posten published twelve cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. According to the imams it was the Queen who instigated this when in April 2005 she urged the Danish people to resist Islam.

This allegation was made to Arab newspapers, officials and politicians by Danish imams, touring the Middle East nine months ago in order to stir up hatred and violence against Denmark. The imams claimed Margrethe had urged the Danes to fight the Muslim minority in the country.

This information was revealed last Summer by the Danish Foreign Ministry, which had been informed by Det Dansk-Egyptiske Dialoginstitut, the Danish-Egyptian Dialogue Institute. The imams also claimed that the Danish government and the Danish people were behind the hate campaign. Hanna Ziadeh, the media researcher for the Det Dansk-Egyptiske Dialoginstitut, said the imams’ aim was to make the entire Danish people responsible for the Muhammad cartoons.

The imams also told the Islamic world that their voice was excluded from the Danish media and that more “horrible reviles” against Islam were being planned in Denmark, including blasphemous films and threats to burn down mosques. Ziadeh said the information he gathered was only from about ten interviews given by the imams to as many large Middle Eastern newspapers. However, the imams talked to many more Arab media, including several TV stations. Only a small part of the false information which the imams spread in the Middle East is actually known in the West.

The imams have consistently claimed that they only told the truth during their tour and that false information in the interviews are the responsibility of the journalists who wrote them. Ziadeh, however, says that the cases of false information are so numerous that they cannot be explained as being merely mistakes made by the journalists. In the interviews he also discerns a pattern which makes the imams’ denial untrustworthy.

According to Hanna Ziadeh “The avowed aim of the imams was to create huge indignation in the Muslim world in order to mobilize broad public protests which would eventually force Jyllands-Posten and the Danish government to apologize. But the cartoons alone were obviously not brutal enough. Therefore the imams were forced to underline that the affair was more than just some drawings in a single newspaper on one specific day. This had to be part of a systematic insult including an offensive film and a censorship of the Koran and there had to be a government and an entire nation behind this hate campaign against Islam and Muslims.”

The campaign of the hatemongering Muslim religious leaders against Denmark and Jyllands-Posten is not over yet. Last August the Egyptian Grand Imam, Sayyed Tantawi, said the newspaper should be closed down and its editor, Carsten Juste, imprisoned for three years. According to Tantawi, who is the spiritual leader of one billion Sunni Muslims, Fleming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s former cultural editor who commissioned the Muhammad cartoons, should suffer the shame of being depicted as a pig. The Grand Imam said the cartoon affair had nothing to do with freedom of expression, but the freedom to be presumptuous. “In the West you must understand that you cannot treat prophets in the same way as presidents or other ordinary people,” Tantawi told the Danish daily Berlingske Tidende.

According to a poll produced by Rambøll Management one year after the Danish cartoons were published, 53% of the Danes still believe Jyllands-Posten did nothing wrong by publishing the cartoons, while 38% think the cartoons should never have been published and the others are not sure. In a similar poll last November (which was before Muslims began rioting, burning down embassies and boycotting Danish products) 54% said it was the right decision to publish the cartoons while 25% said it was not.

Another poll, published in early September, says that 57% of the Danish people expect another crisis similar to the cartoon affair to take place within the next five years. The poll also shows that, while a few months back 50% thought Islam and democracy could be reconciled, today only one third thinks this is possible. A vast majority of the Danes want tighter immigration laws. According to yet another recent poll one in four Danes is more negative towards Islam and Muslims in Denmark than before the cartoon affair.

And...in another view....

Queen Margrethe II of Denmark has said her country needs to find a "counter-balance" to Islamic fundamentalism, regardless of the opprobium such a stance provokes abroad.

The Danish government has already been accused of fuelling xenophobia by introducing measures which effectively closed the country to asylum-seekers.

But in overtly political passages from an official biography published yesterday Queen Margrethe makes comments certain to complicate her nation's relationship with Muslims.

She said: "We are being challenged by Islam these years. Globally as well as locally. There is something impressive about people for whom religion imbues their existence, from dusk to dawn, from cradle to grave. There are also Christians who feel this way.

"There is something endearing about people who give themselves up completely to their faith. But there is likewise something frightening about such a totality, which also is a feature of Islam.

"A counterbalance has to be found, and one has to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on you. For there are some things for which one should display no tolerance. And when we are tolerant, we must know whether it is because of convenience or conviction."

The Queen, who turns 65 tomorrow and has reigned since 1972, wields no political power but does occasionally comment on political issues.

Denmark has seriously limited immigration in the past three years and the anti-immigrant Danish People's Party, an ally of the centre-Right government, has pushed through laws making it harder to bring in foreign spouses or qualify for asylum.

The queen told her biographer, Annelise Bistrup, that she understood how disaffected young Muslims might find refuge in religion. This tendency should be fought by encouraging Muslims to learn Danish so they could integrate better, she said.

"We should not be content with living next to each other. We should rather live together."

In the original version of this story, relying on a translation provided by an international news agency, the Telegraph quoted Queen Margrethe as saying "We have to show our opposition to Islam". But the correct translation should be "counter-balance". The story was re-published on Feb 16, 2006 to reflect that.

“Danish Queen Masterminded Muhammad Cartoon Affair”

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1403



Thoughts?



I wish to God Queen Elizabeth would tell the police to arrest and throw out our militant muslims, there is to much ***** footing around with peoplew who advocate murder.
gmc
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by gmc »

Lulu2 wrote: "It's a problem for moderate muslims living in european countries to worry about as they are likely to be the target if the locals get annoyed at muslims. It's hardly a threat to western democracy."

What's involved here is yet another attempt to stir the pot of hatred and discontent. I completely disagree that it's a problem for moderate muslims...it's a problem for every Dane and soon it'll be a problem for everyone who ignores incidents like these.

They're not going away. They're going to escalate.



No it's a problem for moderate muslims because they live in societies tolerant of their faith and respectful of their rights. People don't bother rthem because they appreciat that the fundamntalists are not representative of the majority any more than the likes of Pat Roberson speaks for all christians in america.

People who live in free countries that value individual freedom and free speech (liberal democracies that is) are intolerant of those that would take away the things they value. They are not taken in by the arguement that we need to give up some of our rights-no arrest without trial etc just to defend ourselves from a bunch of lunatics that think blowing people up will scare people in to doing what they want.

Quite frankly islamic fundamentalists have a snowballs chance in hell of overthrowing a western democracy and only a complete idiot would take the threat seriously, they may delude thenselves that tolerance and a love of freedom and a preference for living in peace are signs of weakness but that's their problem. I am not responsible for what they believe and quite frankly don't really care. Swaggering bullies are just not frightening. There is no muslim horde coming over the skyline to get us in our homes. I am more bothered by govt's telling me we need ID cards and by the way they want to monitor my every activity-as if any semi intelligent terrorist is not going to find ways round that. They want us to change our way of life so how does doing so help defeat them?

At the moment most in europe do not support or condone muslim terrorists an any shape or form but most realise it is symptomatic of other problems and that going in mob handed will not solve anything but instead garner them support out of a sense of frustration and helplessness which is why most arec opposed to US forteign policy and why many in the UK are getting increasingly annoyed at TB for getting us in to this mess in Iraq.

It's a problem for moderate muslims because if the fundamntalists do manage to antogonise the danes, the germans, the british indeed the rest of europe they will have annoyed the most aggressive people on the planet and their cosy little world where they can do and say as they please will become very unpleasant indeed. Given enough provovation you will see mosques being firebombed and muslims targeted to the extent they will not be able top go oput on the streets. It will however take a lot of provocation but moderate muslims should be worried about the effect their nutters might have. I would match our mindless thugs against theirs any day.

Why are so many americans convinced that there is real danger that one day an imam will be sitting in the whitehouse? Who is going to vote for him?
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Lulu2
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Lulu2 »

I don't think anyone here seriously thinks an Imam will be leading this country. What is happening is that Muslim extremists are working toward seeing Imams leading the world!

Nowhere have I suggested that Europeans are condoning or supporting terrorists. Your post reminds me of that old saying...something about "all that needs to happen for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing." Nobody believed that Hitler or Idi Amin or Pol Pot could ever do what they did, either. People just stuck their heads in the proverbial sand and thought it would all die down.



Extremists are increasing their activities all over the world. You can explain away their motives and make excuses all you wish, but the fact is that they want to extend Islam into every corner of the world.

What part of that do you not see? You're attempting to make it political, and it's not. Obviously, they're outraged at the smallest excuse, because it fuels their HOLY MISSION.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
twizzel
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by twizzel »

gmc wrote: No it's a problem for moderate muslims because they live in societies tolerant of their faith and respectful of their rights. People don't bother rthem because they appreciat that the fundamntalists are not representative of the majority any more than the likes of Pat Roberson speaks for all christians in america.

People who live in free countries that value individual freedom and free speech (liberal democracies that is) are intolerant of those that would take away the things they value. They are not taken in by the arguement that we need to give up some of our rights-no arrest without trial etc just to defend ourselves from a bunch of lunatics that think blowing people up will scare people in to doing what they want.

Quite frankly islamic fundamentalists have a snowballs chance in hell of overthrowing a western democracy and only a complete idiot would take the threat seriously, they may delude thenselves that tolerance and a love of freedom and a preference for living in peace are signs of weakness but that's their problem. I am not responsible for what they believe and quite frankly don't really care. Swaggering bullies are just not frightening. There is no muslim horde coming over the skyline to get us in our homes. I am more bothered by govt's telling me we need ID cards and by the way they want to monitor my every activity-as if any semi intelligent terrorist is not going to find ways round that. They want us to change our way of life so how does doing so help defeat them?

At the moment most in europe do not support or condone muslim terrorists an any shape or form but most realise it is symptomatic of other problems and that going in mob handed will not solve anything but instead garner them support out of a sense of frustration and helplessness which is why most arec opposed to US forteign policy and why many in the UK are getting increasingly annoyed at TB for getting us in to this mess in Iraq.

It's a problem for moderate muslims because if the fundamntalists do manage to antogonise the danes, the germans, the british indeed the rest of europe they will have annoyed the most aggressive people on the planet and their cosy little world where they can do and say as they please will become very unpleasant indeed. Given enough provovation you will see mosques being firebombed and muslims targeted to the extent they will not be able top go oput on the streets. It will however take a lot of provocation but moderate muslims should be worried about the effect their nutters might have. I would match our mindless thugs against theirs any day.

Why are so many americans convinced that there is real danger that one day an imam will be sitting in the whitehouse? Who is going to vote for him?



We are at greater risk from our own parliament selling us down the line to europe who just happen to be the people we have been thrashing for eight hundred years and who by and large have no love for the English.
gmc
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by gmc »

Lulu2 wrote: I don't think anyone here seriously thinks an Imam will be leading this country. What is happening is that Muslim extremists are working toward seeing Imams leading the world!

Nowhere have I suggested that Europeans are condoning or supporting terrorists. Your post reminds me of that old saying...something about "all that needs to happen for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing." Nobody believed that Hitler or Idi Amin or Pol Pot could ever do what they did, either. People just stuck their heads in the proverbial sand and thought it would all die down.



Extremists are increasing their activities all over the world. You can explain away their motives and make excuses all you wish, but the fact is that they want to extend Islam into every corner of the world.

What part of that do you not see? You're attempting to make it political, and it's not. Obviously, they're outraged at the smallest excuse, because it fuels their HOLY MISSION.



They may be working to get imams running the world and extend islam everywhere but they have very little chance of succeeding. 350 milion americans -or whatever the population is-might be frightened enough to vote in a muslim govt but I find it a bit hard to believe they will do so. Certainly I can't see 55 million britons agreeing to it either or the millions in europe.

Islamic fundamentalists may be danagerous as terrorists and to each other but they are hardly a serious military threat to any of the industrialised nations n or are any of them likely to convert to islam. the idea is ridiculous.

This all stems from the political situation in the middle east religious extremism is replacing "normal" political activity becaise in their own countries political freedom is surpressed. The biggest culprit is Saudi arabia and have a lot to answer fo in encouraging wahibism to divert it's people from agitating for political change.

The only reason political or religious extremists get support is because of the political and economic situation. I am neither explaining away their motives nor making excuses for them. Neither am I going to be fooled in to thinking this is some kind of religious conflict that everybody has to join in. It's not good against evil or bad religon against the good christian one it's just another conflict like all the ones down through the ages with a modern slant to it.

Hitler is a bad example to use, apart from anything else he was a leader of one of the most powerful states in europe. It took the combined might of the US Russia, the free french, free poles and the British empire to defeat them. There is not a single islamic state that would stand a chance in open warfare with the US or europe or china or russia. Trying to paint the war on terror as a fight to protect democracy is ludicrous. Invading countries that had nothing to do with the terrorist attack on the US is silly.

Being concerned about terrorism is understandable, being terrified of it and convinced they are coming to taken over the country is ridiculous. Lashing out indiscriminately is not going to end the problem. Understanding the reasons behind fundamentalist gaining support might suggest tactics, dismissing them all as bunch of nutters will not.
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Bill Sikes
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Bill Sikes »

twizzel wrote: We are at greater risk from our own parliament selling us down the line to europe who just happen to be the people we have been thrashing for eight hundred years and who by and large have no love for the English.



Might I remind you that the "English" are "Britons" as well, as are the Scots,

Welsh, and Irish - we have fought against all comers for a long time; it's when

there aren't any left left, or when we can't be bothered with them, that we

squabble amongst ourselves (as one dunghill **** said to the other).

Why we have a government who lead us headlong into the clasp of our most

grasping enemies, I just don't There's a world out there to *get on* with,

rather than these dyed-in-the-wool old memories.



See other thread.
gmc
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by gmc »

Bill Sikes wrote: Might I remind you that the "English" are "Britons" as well, as are the Scots,

Welsh, and Irish - we have fought against all comers for a long time; it's when

there aren't any left left, or when we can't be bothered with them, that we

squabble amongst ourselves (as one dunghill **** said to the other).

Why we have a government who lead us headlong into the clasp of our most

grasping enemies, I just don't There's a world out there to *get on* with,

rather than these dyed-in-the-wool old memories.



See other thread.



You kind of lost me at the end there. Tired or have you been at the real ale again?
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Lulu2
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Lulu2 »

Nowhere have I suggested that Europeans are condoning or supporting terrorists. Your post reminds me of that old saying...something about "all that needs to happen for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing." Nobody believed that Hitler or Idi Amin or Pol Pot could ever do what they did, either. People just stuck their heads in the proverbial sand and thought it would all die down.



+++++++ I just wanted to bring that up agan. It seems as if people want to ignore it.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Lulu2
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Lulu2 »

GMC "What is it you think is involved here? A bunch of fundamentalist muslims try and stir up hatred against europe? It's a problem for moderate muslims living in european countries to worry about as they are likely to be the target if the locals get annoyed at muslims. It's hardly a threat to western democracy."

+++++++++++++ Here's one thing: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
twizzel
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by twizzel »

Bill Sikes wrote: Might I remind you that the "English" are "Britons" as well, as are the Scots,

Welsh, and Irish - we have fought against all comers for a long time; it's when

there aren't any left left, or when we can't be bothered with them, that we

squabble amongst ourselves (as one dunghill **** said to the other).

Why we have a government who lead us headlong into the clasp of our most

grasping enemies, I just don't There's a world out there to *get on* with,

rather than these dyed-in-the-wool old memories.



See other thread.



You are not quite right the Scots have invariably sided with the french the Irish nation surported germany in the last war and hundreds of brave merchant seaman died as a result, and the spanish in the 1500s whose help they sought to throw off English rule. We are not one united island as a scotish blair is attempting to prove by breaking up the United Kingdom unlawfully the act of union 1707 requires that every one in the United Kingdom must vote before the scots irish or welsh can get there own parliaments the Westminster parliament cannot just give it to them.
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Bill Sikes
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Denmark's Queen Accused

Post by Bill Sikes »

twizzel wrote: You are not quite right the Scots have invariably sided with the french the Irish nation surported germany in the last war and hundreds of brave merchant seaman died as a result, and the spanish in the 1500s whose help they sought to throw off English rule.



Scots, and Irish (from both sides of the border), fought in WWII. Their

contribution in ridding everyone of the threat was most valuable and

commendable. Do you agree?

twizzel wrote: We are not one united island as a scotish blair is attempting to prove by breaking up the United Kingdom unlawfully the act of union 1707 requires that every one in the United Kingdom must vote before the scots irish or welsh can get there own parliaments the Westminster parliament cannot just give it to them.



We are not one united island, that's plain. However, people[1] from these islands

do tend to stick together to a large degree. I hope it remains so, because IMO

desire for fragmentation will weaken the whole.



[1] Perhaps I should say "Ordinary people untroubled by sht-stirring people with

self-serving agendas[2].

[2] In this class, I include Mr. Blair.
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Post by gmc »

Lulu2 wrote: GMC "What is it you think is involved here? A bunch of fundamentalist muslims try and stir up hatred against europe? It's a problem for moderate muslims living in european countries to worry about as they are likely to be the target if the locals get annoyed at muslims. It's hardly a threat to western democracy."

+++++++++++++ Here's one thing: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml



Most people in the Uk will live and let live. We are a very diverse nation that generally speaking rubs along well together but that doesn''t mean getting to that point was a peaceful process.

Being tolerant doesn't mean you are going to put up with someone trying to run your life. It's a problem for moderate muslims because if the islamic fundamntalists manage to get the British people stirred up the way they think they want to the resulting backlash is likely to be violent and extreme. Tolerant doesn't mean you let people walk all over you. Exerting your rights to freedon od expression does not equate to telling people that they cannot criticise or that such criticism should be illigal and sibject to draconian punishment. We just won't have that.

People will start voting for right wing parties by way of protest, if the main political parties don't take the hint they will get more support. You will see the occasional mosque being set on fire by the more knuckle dragging constituents of the population and the violence can easliy escalate in some of our cities-we have a long history of civil unrest and violence against authority. The tories got a shock with the poll tax riots and ignored the signs as being from a small insignificant minority

It's a problem for moderate muslims because they get us annoyed at their peril. Course i might be talking a load of tosh but that probably won't surpsise you:yh_rotfl

posted by twizzel

You are not quite right the Scots have invariably sided with the french the Irish nation surported germany in the last war and hundreds of brave merchant seaman died as a result, and the spanish in the 1500s whose help they sought to throw off English rule. We are not one united island as a scotish blair is attempting to prove by breaking up the United Kingdom unlawfully the act of union 1707 requires that every one in the United Kingdom must vote before the scots irish or welsh can get there own parliaments the Westminster parliament cannot just give it to them.



You should go away and read a bit of history. Eire was an independent nation that stayed neutral.

In 1707 not everyone could vote so the act is hardly likely to have such a provision. Certainly there would have never been a union if left to a popular vote.

We do not have a written constitution that lays down the way things should be done-if we did it woukd be written in blood. the sovereign power is parliament it can do what it likes.

Please, don't remind people Blair is scots we are hoping people will forget or at any rate not hold it against us. Besides you are just worried we will ask for all the oil money back and not let you have any water when the south east runs out.
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Post by twizzel »

Bill Sikes wrote: Scots, and Irish (from both sides of the border), fought in WWII. Their

contribution in ridding everyone of the threat was most valuable and

commendable. Do you agree?



We are not one united island, that's plain. However, people[1] from these islands

do tend to stick together to a large degree. I hope it remains so, because IMO

desire for fragmentation will weaken the whole.



[1] Perhaps I should say "Ordinary people untroubled by sht-stirring people with

self-serving agendas[2].

[2] In this class, I include Mr. Blair.



It is true that the people of Scotland wales and Irland have fought hard and well for this islands freedom, however these national minorities in the United Kingdom at national level do not like the English just look at who the Scots surport when our national team has an international match. I trust you do not include me with your remarks on Bliar.
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twizzel wrote: It is true that the people of Scotland wales and Irland have fought hard and well for this islands freedom, however these national minorities in the United Kingdom at national level do not like the English just look at who the Scots surport when our national team has an international match. I trust you do not include me with your remarks on Bliar.



Actually the press were stirring that one up mostly it's friendly rivalry with the odd numpty taking it to another level. Try being scots in london when you meet a bunch of skinheads and see if you thnk it's one sided or not.

At least you now fly the english flag instead of the union flag when your team is playing, that really used to annoy. There are always people looking for a fight but the level of violence of which we are capable as a nation is quite staggering. There are many english people living up here-including mywife as it happens nobody bothers apart from the odd incident.

If anything it's more a scots/north of england divide against London and the south east. Perhaps due to our tribal heritages there are IMO distinct cultural differences. North of watford being Black pudding country as I heard it described by a londoner

Mostly we have learned to get along with each other but the point i was trying to make is that while we might be generally tolerant as a nation that doesn't mean we will tolerate being taken advantage of. I think moderate muslims should worry about the effect extremists are having on the way they are viewed generally.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

twizzel wrote: It is true that the people of Scotland wales and Irland have fought hard and well for this islands freedom,



I might possibly say for that, and also - for an ideal.



twizzel wrote: however these national minorities in the United Kingdom at national level do not like the English just look at who the Scots surport when our national team has an international match.



Well, there is that... I would like to think (and do think) that it's not the entire

population acting like that - just the more visible portion. The reaction of some

Britons from England is not too savoury, either. It's this sort of thing that helps

no-one.

twizzel wrote: I trust you do not include me with your remarks on Bliar.



Certainly not! I have no idea what you think. You're not a fascist megalomaniac

paranoid control freak with narcissistic tendencies and delusions of grandeur,

are you?
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Post by twizzel »

gmc wrote: Actually the press were stirring that one up mostly it's friendly rivalry with the odd numpty taking it to another level. Try being scots in london when you meet a bunch of skinheads and see if you thnk it's one sided or not.

At least you now fly the english flag instead of the union flag when your team is playing, that really used to annoy. There are always people looking for a fight but the level of violence of which we are capable as a nation is quite staggering. There are many english people living up here-including mywife as it happens nobody bothers apart from the odd incident.

If anything it's more a scots/north of england divide against London and the south east. Perhaps due to our tribal heritages there are IMO distinct cultural differences. North of watford being Black pudding country as I heard it described by a londoner

Mostly we have learned to get along with each other but the point i was trying to make is that while we might be generally tolerant as a nation that doesn't mean we will tolerate being taken advantage of. I think moderate muslims should worry about the effect extremists are having on the way they are viewed generally.

I think that bliar needs shooting for what he is doing to the united kingdom and parliament generally want shooting for selling us out to europe, I would rather the Scots fighting on my side than the french.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

gmc wrote: Try being scots in london when you meet a bunch of skinheads and see if you thnk it's one sided or not.



What about being English in Edinburgh when you meet a bunch of skinheads?

Would that be any different?



gmc wrote: I think moderate muslims should worry about the effect extremists are having on the way they are viewed generally.



I agree - however, organisations such as the "Muslim Council of Britain", despite

their efforts, do not seem to help much - perhaps the reverse. IMO all racist

organisations should be disbanded.
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Post by twizzel »

Bill Sikes wrote: I might possibly say for that, and also - for an ideal.





Well, there is that... I would like to think (and do think) that it's not the entire

population acting like that - just the more visible portion. The reaction of some

Britons from England is not too savoury, either. It's this sort of thing that helps

no-one.



Certainly not! I have no idea what you think. You're not a fascist megalomaniac

paranoid control freak with narcissistic tendencies and delusions of grandeur,

are you?

Not at all.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

(Is Twizzel like Blair?)

twizzel wrote: Not at all.



Well, thank *goodness* for that!

Blair's talking about his legacy, and how people will remember him... Hah! Earth

to Blair, *WAKE UP to REALITY!*.
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Post by gmc »

Bill Sikes wrote: What about being English in Edinburgh when you meet a bunch of skinheads?

Would that be any different?






I agree - however, organisations such as the "Muslim Council of Britain", despite

their efforts, do not seem to help much - perhaps the reverse. IMO all racist

organisations should be disbanded.





Not in the least. We have our vicious bastards as well. There are occasional incidents but they are rare. I'm not saying there isn't anti english sentiment but it's usually from people that actually know very little of their own history and usually verbal after a drink or two.

How do you class an organisation as racist? The SNP for instance, are they racist, or the BNP, the welsh nationalists.

One thing I strongly object to is faith schools. They cause sectarian division and with muslim schools add in race and they exacerbate the problem. As if we didn't have enough problems with catholic and protestant. Certainly the ones up here seem to think they should be outside the normal school inspectorate, and should be allowed lower standards in teachers-especially for girls.

Best way to encourage tolerance is mix up the children not keep them seperate.
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Post by gmc »

gmc wrote: Not in the least. We have our vicious bastards as well. There are occasional incidents but they are rare. I'm not saying there isn't anti english sentiment but it's usually from people that actually know very little of their own history and usually verbal after a drink or two.

How do you class an organisation as racist? The SNP for instance, are they racist, or the BNP, the welsh nationalists.

One thing I strongly object to is faith schools. They cause sectarian division and with muslim schools add in race and they exacerbate the problem. As if we didn't have enough problems with catholic and protestant. Certainly the ones up here seem to think they should be outside the normal school inspectorate, and should be allowed lower standards in teachers-especially for girls.

Best way to encourage tolerance is mix up the children not keep them seperate.



Blair's talking about his legacy, and how people will remember him... Hah! Earth

to Blair, *WAKE UP to REALITY!*.



:yh_rotfl
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Post by Bill Sikes »

gmc wrote: How do you class an organisation as racist? The SNP for instance, are they racist, or the BNP, the welsh nationalists.



The SNP and Welsh nationalists, are, AFAIK, pursue policies which aren't to do

with race, merely political separation. The BNP do seem to whiff of racism. The

MCB seem, at a superficial level, to come somewhere in between. ICBW, though.

An organisation like, for instance, the Black Police Association, would seem to

be racist by definition.



gmc wrote: One thing I strongly object to is faith schools. They cause sectarian division and with muslim schools add in race and they exacerbate the problem. As if we didn't have enough problems with catholic and protestant. Certainly the ones up here seem to think they should be outside the normal school inspectorate, and should be allowed lower standards in teachers-especially for girls.



What of the moves to make "faith schools" admit a minimun 25% of "non-faith"

pupils? I wonder whether that will be useful.



gmc wrote: Best way to encourage tolerance is mix up the children not keep them seperate.



AOL.
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Post by gmc »

Sorry I seem to have posted twice somehow.

posted by Bill Sikes

What of the moves to make "faith schools" admit a minimun 25% of "non-faith"

pupils? I wonder whether that will be useful.



I just think tjhe very iidea is counter productive. Have seperate RE lessons if you must but put the kids in the same school.

Coloured by personal experience. When I was 7 or 8 they opened a new catholic primary school. It went from "we are going to a differnt school next term-Why's that?-Because we're catholic-what's a catholic?-a different religon-You mean you're not christian?" at that age it really is an irrelevance. Two months after it opened some were going round to beat up the papes.

It brought in a division that was unnecessary and completely counterproduvtive. Mindless differences introduced by the parents. You really do learn bigotry at your parents knee. School is one place to counteract it if you get a chance to meet the "other".

What's AOL?
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Post by Bill Sikes »

gmc wrote: posted by Bill Sikes

Quote:

What of the moves to make "faith schools" admit a minimun 25% of "non-faith"

pupils? I wonder whether that will be useful.



I just think tjhe very iidea is counter productive. Have seperate RE lessons if you must but put the kids in the same school.



Isn't that sort of what the intended legislation is supposed to do? To dilute the

school populations from (perhaps) wholly of one faith, to (somewhat) mixed?



gmc wrote: What's AOL?



An old Usenet term, still in popular use, now meaning (sort of) "I agree!".
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Post by gmc »

posted by bill sikes

Isn't that sort of what the intended legislation is supposed to do? To dilute the

school populations from (perhaps) wholly of one faith, to (somewhat) mixed?



They're also making it easier for independent schools to opt in to the state sector. Currently they have to meet stringent conditions so far as curriculum and teaching standards are concerned and also have buildings which are for for purpose.

It means effectively the taxpayer will be funding them.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,13882,1554593,00.html

http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,,1544168,00.html

Almost half the Government's planned new flagship city schools are sponsored by religious organisations, prompting fears that the programme could become a 'Trojan horse' for radical evangelicals.

The next wave of privately-funded City Academies includes at least one school planning to teach children creationism - the doctrine that the earth was created by God and that the Darwinian model accepted by scientists is therefore wrong.



Our politicians don't seem to grasp that one reason some faith schools seem to do well is that they effectively are selecting pupils not just on faith but streaming for ability as well.

We brought in the comrehensive system to provide equality of opportunity for all. For all it's flaws that was idealistic. Now far from providing equality of opportunity we are going backwards. It's as bad as suggesting companies can sponser schools, that was another of their brain waves.
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Post by gmc »

posted by bill sikes

Isn't that sort of what the intended legislation is supposed to do? To dilute the

school populations from (perhaps) wholly of one faith, to (somewhat) mixed?



They're also making it easier for independent schools to opt in to the state sector. Currently they have to meet stringent conditions so far as curriculum and teaching standards are concerned and also have buildings which are for for purpose.

It means effectively the taxpayer will be funding them.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,13882,1554593,00.html

http://education.guardian.co.uk/faithschools/story/0,,1544168,00.html

Almost half the Government's planned new flagship city schools are sponsored by religious organisations, prompting fears that the programme could become a 'Trojan horse' for radical evangelicals.

The next wave of privately-funded City Academies includes at least one school planning to teach children creationism - the doctrine that the earth was created by God and that the Darwinian model accepted by scientists is therefore wrong.



Our politicians don't seem to grasp that one reason some faith schools seem to do well is that they effectively are selecting pupils not just on faith but streaming for ability as well.

We brought in the comrehensive system to provide equality of opportunity for all. For all it's flaws that was idealistic. Now far from providing equality of opportunity we are going backwards. It's as bad as suggesting companies can sponser schools, that was another of their brain waves. Keep religon out of the school system. imo

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