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Open or closed borders?
charity2k4
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Post by charity2k4 »

Zapata wrote:

Then I have to look to my ancestors, maybe there's an answer there. Were the wealthy Europeans who came here and helped to build this land, owned slaves, but treated them fairly and were generally fine and upstanding citizens the ones I should admire

.

:eek::eek:
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Zapata wrote: I'm facing a dilemma here. Don't know on which side of the fence I belong. The one with the law-abiding, tax-paying, hard-working Americans who have slaved and done things the proper way and gained some assets during their lifetime and are now fearful of their lifestyle being taken away or diminished. I certainly qualify for this group.



Or on the side of a hypothetical creature I'm about to illustrate for consideration of worthiness. A Mexican woman, poorer than most of us can ever imagine, with small children, no husband, no means of support or any way of obtaining food, other than begging for it. They are near starvation in a country which has no welfare programs. She lives in a cardboard and tin shack with a dirt floor and feels grateful to have that. They sleep on rags. She sees the possibility of something better for herself, but more importantly, for her children, but it means breaking some laws.



I say I doubt what the proper thing to do is, but if I saw my children starving, I know what I would do.



Then I have to look to my ancestors, maybe there's an answer there. Were the wealthy Europeans who came here and helped to build this land, owned slaves, but treated them fairly and were generally fine and upstanding citizens the ones I should admire, or my other ancestors, the Native Americans they took the land from? Were my pioneer ancestors who went out with Danile Boone's party to settle the lands west of Ohio more admirable than the ancestor who was on the Trail of Tears, being banished to Oklahoma?



Like I said, I don't know where I belong.

You belong where you are.



Because you are a descendent of the strong spirits you listed, you can empathize with the situation you described. Now you can take it a step farther, if you choose. You can fight to relax the immigration law so that your worthy representative can come in legally. Or, even more directly, you can find a way to start a business (or convince another business to expand) in her area, so that she wouldn't have to put herself or her children in danger.



It is possible to root for both "sides" and still uphold the rule of law.
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

Cheryl said: "I've worked in the ER of a county hospital. I've seen all the folks come in with ailments that could of waited till the family physicians opened up the next day. But no they come to the ER because we cannot refuse them service for not having insurance or medicaid."

Yes---and THIRTEEN emergency centers closed in this part of CA in the last year or so. Any idea why that might've been? :rolleyes:

What people so often forget is that it's too bloody easy to come here illegally, form terror cells and create harm. Didn't 911 teach us ANYTHING?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
charity2k4
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Post by charity2k4 »

There are people who are genuinely seeking asylum from war-torn countries, weeding out who is genuine and who is not must be extremly difficult.

What is the alternative to not feeding, clothing and housing people while these areas are addressed. Throw them out on the streets, most likely

they would still prefer that and take their chances of survival, but you would by doing so criminalise them further. Some are criminalised only by default, that they have by not going through the correct systems of the country break the law. However they otherwise may be law -abiding citizens.



We may become a warn- torn country and may seek the charitable provision of persons from other countries, for our wifes, husbands and children. If it came to survival would you take the risk to protect yourself and family ?

I understand entirely the stress it places on the taxes and resources of the working everyday citizens. The lack of housing, NHS Welfare resources for its residents is and was already suffering under the strain of providing for its own naturalised citizens. For those who have paid their taxes and those who have not. The waiting lists for housing and healthcare are increasing, similtanously services are being cut due to the expanding debts that are occuring to maintain these. Regardless of the fact that 'need' of service is there.

The issue of catering to illegal immigrants then causes a further strain on resources, its understandable that its causing resentment, because it feels as though they are being given priority.

I do 'NOT' think the issue is that the U.K does not care about its people.

The issue is by far more complex than an emotional statement.

The U.K. recognises the plight of others.

However they need to have clear rules about what they will and will not accept. Allowing criminals into the country should be an absolute no.

Anyone seen to breaking the law within a particular time frame should be

sent back to their 'birth' country.

Lets face it costs you to keep someone in within the prison system too,

although on the face of it, those from war-torn countries would still benefit from 3 meals a day, a bed, no expenses to pay and come out with an education at the end of it and they get to LIVE and possibly a British Passport at the end of it.

Britain does need to recognise its limitations. The most appalling factor is the neighbouring countries who 'boot' the aliens out of their country and pack them on a plane to the U.K. The U.K. needs to do something about that issue and let those countries take responsibility for them than passing them onto the U.K.
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

Two years ago, I spent several weeks in Holland, Belgium and France. Without exception, people I met in those countries said that the biggest problem they face is due to uncontrolled immigration! Cultural pressures, overpopulation and the loss of what is "Dutch" or "Belgian," etc, are serious issues. Immigrants who will not assimilate and learn the new language are demanding that their children be taught in the native tongue....sound familiar?

I believe most people have good hearts, empathetic natures and benign intentions. BUT--there are BILLIONS of poor in the world and my country and the E.U. cannot take them all, nor should they!

What's ironic is that I cannot get a job in Mexico, because I'm not a citizen.

People tend to forget the security aspect of border control. We cannot allow unregulated entry into countries which are targeted by fundamental LOONIES with evil intentions.

(The last time I crossed from Ireland to Wales, I was amazed that NOBODY wanted to see my passport! I could've been a terrorist, for goodness' sake, and just waltzed right in!)
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
charity2k4
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Post by charity2k4 »

scotland, ireland, england and wales are part of the 'united kingdom' why have border control and create division inland, its bringing people together not causing segregation.

How do people want to assimilate immigrants into their prospective countries what exactly does that mean ?
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

"Assimilate" is a tricky word. I'll give you examples of people who don't assimilate...they're the ones who refuse to learn English, who expect their children to be educated in languages other than English. Earlier this year, large groups of illegals were demonstrating for their "right" to be here, waving Mexican flags, chanting in Spanish and disrupting much of Los Angeles.

Language is a huge part of it. Until local city governments stepped in, there were areas within the San Gabriel valley where none of the stores had signs legible to English speakers. Imagine yourself trying to shop in your community under those circumstances.

Another example might be in a nearby city which has seen a large influx of Armenians. These people "struck" to demand that city adopt a holiday (close the schools, banks, etc,) observing the Armenian genocide. Local merchants, teachers and parents were appalled, not so much at the request, but at the way it was done.

I can give you examples of groups which have assimilated successfully, become willing partners in the culture of their cities and contributed to all segments of life. We have a huge Asian population, largely due to legal immigrants who came at the time Hong Kong reverted back to mainland control. Their intention was to stay and become contributing citizens and they've done just that.

But the problem with illegal immigration goes much deeper. These people have no intention of remaining or adapting. Their only intention is to take what they can get and send it out of the country. Billions of dollars are removed from our economy every year and sent outside the borders. Entire neighborhoods are suffering from real estate devaluation which occurs when garages are converted to "apartments" housing ten or fifteen people. Imagine YOUR neighborhood being inundated with triple and quadruple numbers of people who are unconcerned with your safety or your housing standards. Crime soars. Trash collects.

The myth that illegals come just to pick seasonal crops is just that...a myth. Our cities and neighborhoods are suffering because populations have increased out of control, without planning and without resources.

.

It's the easiest thing in the world to level accusations of "racist" and "bigot" at people who cite these problems...easy because it cannot be proven. Many in this country have been quiet far too long, reluctant to give the appearance of racism, etc.

No more.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Sheryl
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Post by Sheryl »

For the first time in my life I've actually got to live somewhere more than a couple of years. I've now lived in the town I'm in for 14 years. I've gotten to observe the changes that occur over time. What have I seen, the closing of American owned mom and pop stores to big retailers like Wal-Mart. And the opening of several Mexican orientated stores.

Maybe those of us in the states that border Mexico see it quicker and more than our other states. But it is getting out of hand.
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Deep_Respect
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Ok I have to respond to this one. First of all lets give credit where it is due. The slaves built this land not the slave owners. The slaves got nothing in return so how can you say they were treated fairly?



Zapata wrote:

Then I have to look to my ancestors, maybe there's an answer there. Were the wealthy Europeans who came here and helped to build this land, owned slaves, but treated them fairly and were generally fine and upstanding citizens the ones I should admire
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Sheryl
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Post by Sheryl »

Deep_Respect wrote: Ok I have to respond to this one. First of all lets give credit where it is due. The slaves built this land not the slave owners. The slaves got nothing in return so how can you say they were treated fairly?



Not all slave holders treated their slaves like crap. There were families who treated their slaves like extended family. :)
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Deep_Respect
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Post by Deep_Respect »

What exactly is getting out of hand? The folding of American owned mom and pop stores or the opening of Mexican oriented stores in the presence if big businesses like Walmart. This is the nature of business competition in the US and its has always been that way. Mexican oriented stores survive by catering to a niche market whereas the traditional mom and pop stores survived by catering to a broader market that has been snatched by larger corporate businesses. That is the nature of business competition which drives US economy. I also hope you realize that primary objective of any business is to earn money for those who own it (ie share holders) and not some benevolent cause like creating jobs for or improve the lives of Americans. I would think you would be more upset at corporations who outsource jobs to other countries.

Sheryl wrote: For the first time in my life I've actually got to live somewhere more than a couple of years. I've now lived in the town I'm in for 14 years. I've gotten to observe the changes that occur over time. What have I seen, the closing of American owned mom and pop stores to big retailers like Wal-Mart. And the opening of several Mexican orientated stores.

Maybe those of us in the states that border Mexico see it quicker and more than our other states. But it is getting out of hand.
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Post by Deep_Respect »

So you say but did anyone ever ask the slaves for their opinion? I've never heard of anyone enslaving their extended family or friends or anyone else they truly cared about. Maybe they did whip them severely for their transgressions but where they offered the opportunity for an education? Were they offered the opportunity a fair opportunity of freedom? Were they ever compensated? To do anything otherwise is still treating someone like crap. Would you want to be someone's slave even if they treated you like extended family? Let's be for real and stop the crap.

Sheryl wrote: Not all slave holders treated their slaves like crap. There were families who treated their slaves like extended family. :)
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Sheryl
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Post by Sheryl »

Deep_Respect wrote: What exactly is getting out of hand? The folding of American owned mom and pop stores or the opening of Mexican oriented stores in the presence if big businesses like Walmart. This is the nature of business competition in the US and its has always been that way. Mexican oriented stores survive by catering to a niche market whereas the traditional mom and pop stores survived by catering to a broader market that has been snatched by larger corporate businesses. That is the nature of business competition which drives US economy. I also hope you realize that primary objective of any business is to earn money for those who own it (ie share holders) and not some benevolent cause like creating jobs for or improve the lives of Americans. I would think you would be more upset at corporations who outsource jobs to other countries.



Man you know how to attack on arguements huh!

What I meant by it getting out of hand, is large corporation stores like Wal-mart driving the mom and pop shops out of business with their cheaper prices. Then on the the shops opened that carry items mainly for the Mexican population is that there are so many of them on every corner. It's beginning to look alot like Little Mexico in my neighboring town.

I guess you just gotta see it to understand.
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BabyRider
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Post by BabyRider »

Deep_Respect wrote: So you say but did anyone ever ask the slaves for their opinion? I've never heard of anyone enslaving their extended family or friends or anyone else they truly cared about. Maybe they did whip them severely for their transgressions but where they offered the opportunity for an education? Were they offered the opportunity a fair opportunity of freedom? Were they ever compensated? To do anything otherwise is still treating someone like crap. Would you want to be someone's slave even if they treated you like extended family? Let's be for real and stop the crap.

But what was acceptable practices back then aren't now. Now we know our ancestors were wrong, but back then it was just how things were. No need to be quite so sharp about it.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
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Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




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valerie
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Post by valerie »

Deep_Respect wrote: So you say but did anyone ever ask the slaves for their opinion? I've never heard of anyone enslaving their extended family or friends or anyone else they truly cared about. Maybe they did whip them severely for their transgressions but where they offered the opportunity for an education? Were they offered the opportunity a fair opportunity of freedom? Were they ever compensated? To do anything otherwise is still treating someone like crap. Would you want to be someone's slave even if they treated you like extended family? Let's be for real and stop the crap.



Although in my opinion slavery is another thread (or should be)...



I will say this. I'm tired of having the "sins of the father" visited upon

ME. People did what they did back then and nothing I could ever do

will ever change history. And lest we forget, a certain number of those

slaves were slaves in their homeland, too. It wasn't right, it just WAS.



I give blood between 4 and 6 times a year. (Sorry, regulars who've

heard it before!) Any descendants of slaves who need my blood are

welcome to it.



There, how's that?
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Sheryl
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Post by Sheryl »

Deep_Respect wrote: So you say but did anyone ever ask the slaves for their opinion? I've never heard of anyone enslaving their extended family or friends or anyone else they truly cared about. Maybe they did whip them severely for their transgressions but where they offered the opportunity for an education? Were they offered the opportunity a fair opportunity of freedom? Were they ever compensated? To do anything otherwise is still treating someone like crap. Would you want to be someone's slave even if they treated you like extended family? Let's be for real and stop the crap.



Wow what are your credientials on all this?

If the slaves that were treated kindly by their masters hated it so much, why did they stay on and work the farms after they were freed?
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Deep_Respect
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Post by Deep_Respect »

I wasn't attacking you but rather trying to show how business in this country works. The American stores by failing to adapt to the changing market place (ie the influx of larger chain stores) and changing custmer base (ie the Mexicans) failed to take the necessary actions to survive. Why couldn't the American stores compete for Mexican customers? Most likely because they refuse to adapt. They were so busy seeing the problem that they didn't see the solution.

Sheryl wrote: Man you know how to attack on arguements huh!

What I meant by it getting out of hand, is large corporation stores like Wal-mart driving the mom and pop shops out of business with their cheaper prices. Then on the the shops opened that carry items mainly for the Mexican population is that there are so many of them on every corner. It's beginning to look alot like Little Mexico in my neighboring town.

I guess you just gotta see it to understand.
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Post by Deep_Respect »

That's an easy one. They stayed because they didn't have the resources to move off the plantations. Remember they were 1) refused an education 2) had no money 3) in some states denied the rights of ordinary citizens specifically the right to vote.

This information is in any high school history book along with the horrors that many of the unlucky slaves endured. You still haven't answered a single question that I posed to you.

And I will ask you the same question that you posed to me. Where did you get your credentials?



Sheryl wrote: Wow what are your credientials on all this?

If the slaves that were treated kindly by their masters hated it so much, why did they stay on and work the farms after they were freed?
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BabyRider
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Post by BabyRider »

valerie wrote: Any descendants of slaves who need my blood are

welcome to it.



Can I have some? My ancestors were here way before any of this even occured. :yh_eyerol
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




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valerie
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Post by valerie »

BabyRider wrote: Can I have some? My ancestors were here way before any of this even occured. :yh_eyerol



Abso-freakin'-lutely. It's high-octane stuff, the best of the nest.

(Hey that's kind of a cute typo up there I'm gonna leave it!)^



I'd be honored.



:-6
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BabyRider
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Post by BabyRider »

valerie wrote: Abso-freakin'-lutely. It's high-octane stuff, the best of the nest.

(Hey that's kind of a cute typo up there I'm gonna leave it!)^



I'd be honored.



:-6

That's a great typo!!!



And I have no doubt of the octane runnin' through your veins, lady!!! :yh_bigsmi
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




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valerie
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Post by valerie »

BabyRider wrote:

And I have no doubt of the octane runnin' through your veins, lady!!! :yh_bigsmi



I was, of course, referring to the high hemoglobin content of said blood.



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Sheryl
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Post by Sheryl »

Deep_Respect wrote: That's an easy one. They stayed because they didn't have the resources to move off the plantations. Remember they were 1) refused an education 2) had no money 3) in some states denied the rights of ordinary citizens specifically the right to vote.

This information is in any high school history book along with the horrors that many of the unlucky slaves endured. You still haven't answered a single question that I posed to you.

And I will ask you the same question that you posed to me. Where did you get your credentials?



I've answered your questions, you must not have liked or seen my answers. I'm not a big debator.
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Post by Deep_Respect »

I wasn't being sharp. I am being realistic. When someone tries to justify or other imply that slavery was "not so bad" I will respond with my opinion. It may have been acceptable but it was wrong. You may understand that it was wrong but there are still people in this country today who still do not agree and this is obvious is you read the post I was replying to.

BabyRider wrote: But what was acceptable practices back then aren't now. Now we know our ancestors were wrong, but back then it was just how things were. No need to be quite so sharp about it.
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Post by BabyRider »

Deep_Respect wrote: I wasn't being sharp. I am being realistic. When someone tries to justify or other imply that slavery was "not so bad" I will respond with my opinion. It may have been acceptable but it was wrong. You may understand that it was wrong but there are still people in this country today who still do not agree and this is obvious is you read the post I was replying to.

Perceived reality. It sounded sharp to me, so....it was sharp.
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




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Post by Deep_Respect »

Okay lets set the record straight. I never attacked you or anyone for being the a descendent of a slave owner and frankly don't care. I understand that history cannot be changed but slavery is wrong and when someone tries to sugar coat it I will speak my opinion. If you acknowledge that it is wrong them why can't you understand where I'm coming from.

valerie wrote: Although in my opinion slavery is another thread (or should be)...



I will say this. I'm tired of having the "sins of the father" visited upon

ME. People did what they did back then and nothing I could ever do

will ever change history. And lest we forget, a certain number of those

slaves were slaves in their homeland, too. It wasn't right, it just WAS.



I give blood between 4 and 6 times a year. (Sorry, regulars who've

heard it before!) Any descendants of slaves who need my blood are

welcome to it.



There, how's that?
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valerie
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Post by valerie »

Hey, I didn't feel YOU attacked ME, pal. Better men have tried, AND failed.



I don't see anyone tried to sugarcoat anything. It is a truth that SOME

slaves had decent lives. Whether that is an extremely small number

(and I'm sure it IS!!) doesn't make someone stating it guilty of

"sugarcoating".



Let me tell you a story. I watched a television production about the life

of Rosa Parks. Well after slavery, granted. But do you know what scene

moved me most of all? The one where she had to take a tracing of her

little girl's foot to the store to get her a new pair of shoes. Because

little black girls couldn't try on shoes in the store. I cried, and cried,

and then cried some more. But what does that get me? I'm more aware, perhaps.



You say you want me to understand where you're coming from and I

want you to try and understand there is no more that I personally

feel I can do. You don't know people around here very well yet but

maybe when/if you do, you won't be so quick to get your panties in

a bunch just because someone makes a simple statement of fact.
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Well I've looked for and haven't seen your answers while I've replied to a few more posts on this thread so I pose my questions again. Whether or not you are debator is not the issue here. You are trying to defend a position that has no logical defense.

So you say but did anyone ever ask the slaves for their opinion? I've never heard of anyone enslaving their extended family or friends or anyone else they truly cared about. Maybe they did whip them severely for their transgressions but where they offered the opportunity for an education? Were they offered the opportunity a fair opportunity of freedom? Were they ever compensated? To do anything otherwise is still treating someone like crap. Would you want to be someone's slave even if they treated you like extended family? Let's be for real and stop the crap.



Sheryl wrote: I've answered your questions, you must not have liked or seen my answers. I'm not a big debator.
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Well understand that I'm not asking for you to do anything about the past. Either you agree it was wrong or it wasn't. Don't act wishy washy by saying it was wrong but then justify it was okay if the slaves were treated well. If someone enslaved you would you consider that a decent life? Maybe you like having someone else control your life. That statement of fact you refer to is someone's opinion.



valerie wrote: Hey, I didn't feel YOU attacked ME, pal. Better men have tried, AND failed.



I don't see anyone tried to sugarcoat anything. It is a truth that SOME

slaves had decent lives. Whether that is an extremely small number

(and I'm sure it IS!!) doesn't make someone stating it guilty of

"sugarcoating".



Let me tell you a story. I watched a television production about the life

of Rosa Parks. Well after slavery, granted. But do you know what scene

moved me most of all? The one where she had to take a tracing of her

little girl's foot to the store to get her a new pair of shoes. Because

little black girls couldn't try on shoes in the store. I cried, and cried,

and then cried some more. But what does that get me? I'm more aware, perhaps.



You say you want me to understand where you're coming from and I

want you to try and understand there is no more that I personally

feel I can do. You don't know people around here very well yet but

maybe when/if you do, you won't be so quick to get your panties in

a bunch just because someone makes a simple statement of fact.
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Sheryl
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Post by Sheryl »

Deep_Respect wrote: Well I've looked for and haven't seen your answers while I've replied to a few more posts on this thread so I pose my questions again. Whether or not you are debater is not the issue here. You are trying to defend a position that has no logical defense.



So you say but did anyone ever ask the slaves for their opinion?



Well considering I was born bout 100 years to late, I'd ask them myself. But here's the deal there are several memoirs and such books out there. Not all of them tell tales of having horrid times as a slave.



I've never heard of anyone enslaving their extended family or friends or anyone else they truly cared about. Maybe they did whip them severely for their transgressions but where they offered the opportunity for an education?



Well considering some slave owners had black mistresses who produced children, then yes you can say extended family were enslaved. And yes some owners did offer education to their slaves.



Were they offered the opportunity a fair opportunity of freedom? Were they ever compensated? To do anything otherwise is still treating someone like crap. Would you want to be someone's slave even if they treated you like extended family? Let's be for real and stop the crap.



Here's the deal, we cannot change the past. Slavery happened, it's illegal now and we have to move on. I'm not here defending the slave owners, I'm just saying not all of them are the monsters depicted in movies and history.

So let's drop this argument, or you can start another thread on the topic.
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Post by ZAP »

Deep_Respect wrote: Ok I have to respond to this one. First of all lets give credit where it is due. The slaves built this land not the slave owners. The slaves got nothing in return so how can you say they were treated fairly?



Perhaps I should be a little more precise in my terms here. I called them "slaves", while the court records of the day called them "indentured servants." My ancestors had these "indentured servants" not on plantations in the South, but on huge farms in Pennsylvania and Virginia, (something like that of George Washington at Mt. Vernon, although his records may have referred to them as slaves). These "servants" had a document drawn up that is of record still today, which entitled them to clothing, food, housing and schooling in exchange for working on the farms. When they reached the age of 16, they were given clothing and some money and were allowed to go.

According to our genealogy records, at least one of these "servants" was white, as were the landowners. I wonder if her parents were happy to see her fed and clothed?

In my first post I asked whether these ancestors who HELPED to build America, which they certainly did do, were to be more admired than my other ancestors, the Native Americans, from whom they took the land. I might go on to add that two of the decendants of these landowners married Native Americans.
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Thank you for clarifying your post. I have a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Zapata wrote: Perhaps I should be a little more precise in my terms here. I called them "slaves", while the court records of the day called them "indentured servants." My ancestors had these "indentured servants" not on plantations in the South, but on huge farms in Pennsylvania and Virginia, (something like that of George Washington at Mt. Vernon, although his records may have referred to them as slaves). These "servants" had a document drawn up that is of record still today, which entitled them to clothing, food, housing and schooling in exchange for working on the farms. When they reached the age of 16, they were given clothing and some money and were allowed to go.

According to our genealogy records, at least one of these "servants" was white, as were the landowners. I wonder if her parents were happy to see her fed and clothed?

In my first post I asked whether these ancestors who HELPED to build America, which they certainly did do, were to be more admired than my other ancestors, the Native Americans, from whom they took the land. I might go on to add that two of the decendants of these landowners married Native Americans.
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Post by Accountable »

Deep_Respect wrote: Ok I have to respond to this one. First of all lets give credit where it is due. The slaves built this land not the slave owners. The slaves got nothing in return so how can you say they were treated fairly?

Okay!! Well, this statement took us on a good run off into the pasture, didn't it? However, I did notice that you haven't expressed your views on the subject yet, Deep. (Oh, and welcome. I like articulate people)



Would you mind taking the post in context and respond to the point Zap was making?
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Post by valerie »

Deep_Respect wrote: Well understand that I'm not asking for you to do anything about the past. Either you agree it was wrong or it wasn't. Don't act wishy washy by saying it was wrong but then justify it was okay if the slaves were treated well. If someone enslaved you would you consider that a decent life? Maybe you like having someone else control your life. That statement of fact you refer to is someone's opinion.



Wishy-washy? ME? :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl



I didn't "justify slavery" at ALL. A sugarcoated turd is still a turd. I'm

not about to do YOUR research for you. It was NOT just an opinion.

You come in here not knowing a soul and jump right in with the

. You don't take the time to find out what kind of people are

here. I "know" most of these people. Believe me, I'm not averse to calling

somebody on something if I think they need it, and I don't care if I'm

the only one who feels that way. (Most often, I'm not) Just a few days

ago, on another board I visit, someone posted an offensive joke. It had

THIRTY-EIGHT views at the time I saw it, and not one of those people

had reported it. I did, right away and the joke was removed.



You are asking questions you either already have the answers to, or

can't be answered. Do you REALLY expect someone in here to say "Oh

yes slavery was great wish we could bring it back"? WTF?



I hesitate to say it because it smacks of "Some of my best friends are

black" but here goes anyway: I try my hardest to be a well-read

person. On a lot of different subjects. I read Leonard Pitts Jr's columns

all the time. Two books I just pulled from the bookshelf next to where

I sit: The Color of Water: A Black man's Tribute to his White Mother.

By James McBride.

And: Slaves in the Family by Edward Ball.



I "know" Sheryl, at least I think I do, and furthermore I know her intent.

You don't and can't until after much more time passes.



You want to talk about hate and torture, slaves didn't have the corner

on that market, I don't think. By sheer numbers, if nothing else. I'm

of Jewish descent. Did you happen to see Elie Wiesel on Oprah? Did

you happen to see the rooms full of suitcases? Or shoes? Or HUMAN

HAIR? That was wrong, too. We shouldn't sugarcoat that or forget

it. I won't.



But how much better for us ALL not to do this kind of thing. Work for

change, work for better for everybody, not re-hash and incite and

dig at people who can't do anything about what's gone on before.



I think it was Oprah who said "If you have a little, give a little, if you

have a lot, give a lot". Try that. IMHO that would work best of all.

Give blood. Build houses. Plant gardens. Read to a child. The color of

the blood, well guess what works for everybody. The color of the

child? Hmmm, geez, IT DOESN'T MATTER!
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Post by Sheryl »

for Valerie's post above....:yh_clap :yh_worshp :yh_clap :yh_clap
"Girls are crazy! I'm not ever getting married, I can make my own sandwiches!"

my son
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Post by charity2k4 »

valerie wrote: Wishy-washy? ME? :yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl



I didn't "justify slavery" at ALL. A sugarcoated turd is still a turd. I'm

not about to do YOUR research for you. It was NOT just an opinion.

You come in here not knowing a soul and jump right in with the

. You don't take the time to find out what kind of people are

here. I "know" most of these people. Believe me, I'm not averse to calling

somebody on something if I think they need it, and I don't care if I'm

the only one who feels that way. (Most often, I'm not) Just a few days

ago, on another board I visit, someone posted an offensive joke. It had

THIRTY-EIGHT views at the time I saw it, and not one of those people

had reported it. I did, right away and the joke was removed.



You are asking questions you either already have the answers to, or

can't be answered. Do you REALLY expect someone in here to say "Oh

yes slavery was great wish we could bring it back"? WTF?



I hesitate to say it because it smacks of "Some of my best friends are

black" but here goes anyway: I try my hardest to be a well-read

person. On a lot of different subjects. I read Leonard Pitts Jr's columns

all the time. Two books I just pulled from the bookshelf next to where

I sit: The Color of Water: A Black man's Tribute to his White Mother.

By James McBride.

And: Slaves in the Family by Edward Ball.



I "know" Sheryl, at least I think I do, and furthermore I know her intent.

You don't and can't until after much more time passes.



You want to talk about hate and torture, slaves didn't have the corner

on that market, I don't think. By sheer numbers, if nothing else. I'm

of Jewish descent. Did you happen to see Elie Wiesel on Oprah? Did

you happen to see the rooms full of suitcases? Or shoes? Or HUMAN

HAIR? That was wrong, too. We shouldn't sugarcoat that or forget

it. I won't.



But how much better for us ALL not to do this kind of thing. Work for

change, work for better for everybody, not re-hash and incite and

dig at people who can't do anything about what's gone on before.



I think it was Oprah who said "If you have a little, give a little, if you

have a lot, give a lot". Try that. IMHO that would work best of all.

Give blood. Build houses. Plant gardens. Read to a child. The color of

the blood, well guess what works for everybody. The color of the

child? Hmmm, geez, IT DOESN'T MATTER!



How do you know what people think if you dont ask for clarification on what they meant ? The fact is each individuals response or whether they choose to dismiss or ignore a statement, does show a lot about individual character or individual values. Talking and discussion is a process of getting to know someone not a judgement call if an issue arises it actually stops pre-concieved ideas being made.

Or do you have to be around here 6months before your allowed to do so ?

I also hasten to add you do not Know Deep_ Respect either and you won't untill some time has passed.

This is a discussion forum, for people to discuss a variety of topics, some discussions make people feel uncomfortable, threatened, defensive, they provoke a variety of responses both negative and positive. Without discussion there is no growth, no mutual understanding, no sharing of knowledge, no learning.

This looks like a great forum, where there is diversity and complex issues are discussed. I would hope that people are able to discuss more than what flowers are in their garden because thats a 'safe' topic.

Oh and unfortunately the colour of a child does matter to a lot of people, thats the reality of the society we live in its ignorance and hypocrisy to shut your your eyes to the reality of that even if you dont practice it yourself.
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Post by valerie »

Hasten to add anything you like... I didn't say I knew Deep at all. I went

totally by his posts here. It SEEMS like sh*t-disturbing. To ME. YES, that

is ONLY an opinion, based on experience.



How DARE you call ME ignorant? I practically just get finished saying

I try to be well-read and you say I'm ignorant and shutting my eyes

to reality. PLEASE. Of COURSE I know the color of a child matters to

some people. Color of an adult, for that matter. The point was about

ways to help fellow human beings. Doesn't matter which ones, is

what I was trying to get at. Dare I say there is plenty of need out

there regardless of color? Even if you are a "hater" and only want to

give to your own, then do that. It is STILL a betterment to the human

condition, and might just possibly make the hater a better person, or

that child grow up to contribute something to this world.



Thanks for the lecture on what this place is. I really needed that.

:rolleyes:
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Post by charity2k4 »

charity2k4 wrote: its ignorance and hypocrisy to shut your your eyes to the reality of that even if you dont practice it yourself.



for those who are having difficulty reading :D

only too glad to offer a helping hand :wah:
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Post by valerie »

charity2k4 wrote: for those who are having difficulty reading :D



only too glad to offer a helping hand :wah:



Or do you have to be around here 6months before your allowed to do so ?



It's "you're" for those who are having a little difficulty spelling.



Happy to be of assistance.



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Post by charity2k4 »

valerie wrote: Or do you have to be around here 6months before your allowed to do so ?



It's "you're" for those who are having a little difficulty spelling.



Happy to be of assistance.



:yh_bigsmi



:wah: :wah: when it gets to that level of disagreement then it shows people argue for the sake of arguing. I'm sure you have a level of intelligence and way of thinking that can work to higher level than whats currently on display
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Post by Lulu2 »

:yh_clap
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by charity2k4 »

Pinky i think the person concerned is full aware of why i highlighted my own quote.

thanks for the tip on manners Pinky i' hope you have some too;)
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Post by valerie »

charity2k4 wrote: :wah: :wah: when it gets to that level of disagreement then it shows people argue for the sake of arguing. I'm sure you have a level of intelligence and way of thinking that can work to higher level than whats currently on display



Oh you are a TREASURE!! :-4



I didn't stoop to that level until YOU did, jefe.



I forgot to implement Peg's sig line: (I'm sure she won't mind me posting

it here!)



Never argue with an idiot. They just drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.



:D
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Post by charity2k4 »

valerie wrote: Oh you are a TREASURE!! :-4



I didn't stoop to that level until YOU did, jefe.



I forgot to implement Peg's sig line: (I'm sure she won't mind me posting

it here!)



Never argue with an idiot. They just drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.



:D

:wah: lmaoff i have to remember that when i come across you on here again.. thats funny lol
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Post by Accountable »

Somebody PM me when ya'll get back to the discussion, please.
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Post by Lulu2 »

(Thanks. I came in at the end and didn't understand how illegals became slaves. Were we to chain them up and sell them off?:wah: )
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Accountable wrote: Okay!! Well, this statement took us on a good run off into the pasture, didn't it? However, I did notice that you haven't expressed your views on the subject yet, Deep. (Oh, and welcome. I like articulate people)



Would you mind taking the post in context and respond to the point Zap was making?



I'm facing a dilemma here. Don't know on which side of the fence I belong. The one with the law-abiding, tax-paying, hard-working Americans who have slaved and done things the proper way and gained some assets during their lifetime and are now fearful of their lifestyle being taken away or diminished. I certainly qualify for this group.

Or on the side of a hypothetical creature I'm about to illustrate for consideration of worthiness. A Mexican woman, poorer than most of us can ever imagine, with small children, no husband, no means of support or any way of obtaining food, other than begging for it. They are near starvation in a country which has no welfare programs. She lives in a cardboard and tin shack with a dirt floor and feels grateful to have that. They sleep on rags. She sees the possibility of something better for herself, but more importantly, for her children, but it means breaking some laws.

I say I doubt what the proper thing to do is, but if I saw my children starving, I know what I would do.



Obviously there are different ways to view this issue as Zapata points out. I'm not overly concerned about this issue because I don't feel as if these people as a whole are taking anything away from me. Most illegal aliens work at jobs that I would never consider taking at a salary that wouldn't interest me. While I might be concerned if a large influx of criminals entered the country I'm more concerned about government corruption and corporate scandals like the savings and loan scandals of the 90's, Enron and Worldcom which the taxpayers the paid for and eminent domain abuse which is the latest monster in our midst.

Then I have to look to my ancestors, maybe there's an answer there. Were the wealthy Europeans who came here and helped to build this land, owned slaves, but treated them fairly and were generally fine and upstanding citizens the ones I should admire, or my other ancestors, the Native Americans they took the land from? Were my pioneer ancestors who went out with Danile Boone's party to settle the lands west of Ohio more admirable than the ancestor who was on the Trail of Tears, being banished to Oklahoma?

Like I said, I don't know where I belong.


I would ask why choose sides? Both cultures are a part of your past so simply appreciate each for what it is.

BTW - Thanks for the welcome

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