ILLEGAL aliens

Open or closed borders?
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

Spinner, Chonsi's one of my best friends. I'm resisting coming to her aid with every fiber, but she can well handle herself. I have to say it's funny to see the accusations you throw at her, knowing her as I do.



She's a fabulous person; hardly the person you apparently see. When you're ready to take a break from this thread, check her history.
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

RedGlitter;440934 wrote:

Chonsi knows Mexicans (etc) so it's okay for her to speak about what she sees but Saffron is incorrect about what *she* sees

and has no right to speak her mind as she is not Mexican and is politically incorrect. :thinking:

Saffron has every right to speak her mind. She does not have a right to speak with impunity. Saffron's a bigot. I will not stand by to let bigots spew their tripe unchallenged.
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable;440937 wrote: Saffron has every right to speak her mind. She does not have a right to speak with impunity. Saffron's a bigot. I will not stand by to let bigots spew their tripe unchallenged.



You don't have to stand by, Accountable. I don't think Saffron is a bigot. But even a bigot has a right to their opinion in this country.
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

RedGlitter;440938 wrote: You don't have to stand by, Accountable. I don't think Saffron is a bigot. But even a bigot has a right to their opinion in this country.

You don't have enough evidence.



The fireworks started on post #15.

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12658&page=2
User avatar
Lulu2
Posts: 6016
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Lulu2 »

In 1997, President Ernesto Zedillo said, "I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders. (National council of La Raza, July 23, 1997.)

Mario Obledo, co-founder of the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF) said that "California is going to be a Hispanic state and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. We are going to take over all of the political instituions in California." (KIEV Radio...June 16, 1998.)

Mexican consul-General Jose Angel Pescador Osuna said "We are practicing la Reconquista in California." (Southwestern University School of Law, Feb. 6, 1998.)

MECHA, the Chicano student group which has chapters on most high school/college campuses (including one in my own city) makes no secret of its goal to return California to Mexico, including all the wealth and resources accumulated by those American citizens who have made it what it is.

Ask me why I'm so passionate in the fight against this illegal invasion.....
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable;440941 wrote: You don't have enough evidence.



The fireworks started on post #15.

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12658&page=2



I read the whole thread. I find it speaks volumes that "LadyCop" referred to her illegal neighbors as "filth" and you let that go, Accountable. As did everyone else. Sure, many of us have trash neighbors in our neighborhoods but by that post, the loud music and kids running in the yard is what made them "filth."



I object to that even though I support her right to have said it.



I read all your highlighted stuff and with a few exceptions, don't see a major problem. Illegal or not, a person who was in a public relations field and could not speak the common language of that country would **** me off too. And does. The other "assumptions" speak for themselves but I don't feel calling someone a slur such as bigot is any better than acting like one. If you would like to see a change in a person, there are better ways of letting that be known.



What it looked like mostly to me is that the posters in that thread didn't care for illegals of whatever nationality either, if they were ILLEGAL. (or TOO LOUD or HAD KIDS IN THEIR YARD (god forbid) ) The last two are silly and I totally support the first one.



Personally? I think you might have a problem with Saffron. If you do, that's your problem and not my business. But why not object to calling someone "filth?" I am surprised by that. Or maybe it's moot since the thread is old and LC is gone now.



BTW, your comment about my accusations (?!) of Chonsi? What are you referring to? I don't believe I accused her of anything but what she had said herself, but I would like to see where you think I did as that was not my intention. Thanks.



ETA: Oh yeah- I did object to the term wetback.
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Lulu2;440943 wrote: In 1997, President Ernesto Zedillo said, "I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders. (National council of La Raza, July 23, 1997.)



Mario Obledo, co-founder of the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF) said that "California is going to be a Hispanic state and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. We are going to take over all of the political instituions in California." (KIEV Radio...June 16, 1998.)



Mexican consul-General Jose Angel Pescador Osuna said "We are practicing la Reconquista in California." (Southwestern University School of Law, Feb. 6, 1998.)



MECHA, the Chicano student group which has chapters on most high school/college campuses (including one in my own city) makes no secret of its goal to return California to Mexico, including all the wealth and resources accumulated by those American citizens who have made it what it is.



Ask me why I'm so passionate in the fight against this illegal invasion.....





:mad: I would REALLY like to hear some opinions about that one!!!
User avatar
Lulu2
Posts: 6016
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Lulu2 »

Me, too, Glitter. That's why I posted it.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
User avatar
Sheryl
Posts: 8498
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:08 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Sheryl »

Honestly I find it very scary. Especially when I do a google search of "Mexican take over of America" and get 10 pages of hits.

http://www.ccir.net/AUDIO/TakeoverOfAmericaCD/Menu.html

But this link scared me the most, some of these folks are already elected officials in our country. :-2
"Girls are crazy! I'm not ever getting married, I can make my own sandwiches!"

my son
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

I wanted to find out Mexico's immigration policy to see how *they* do it.

There's no fair play happening here:



http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/Mexicos_Immigration_Law.pdf



http://www.mexicolaw.com/LawInfo10.htm







I am stunned by the vitriolic chum I read on your link, Sheryl. I know we're not supposed to be using the R word now but what the heck else would we call it? Seems pretty blatant to me. Especially the part about "old white people, it's your duty to die." :thinking: If a white person made that remark about any other race, could you imagine the eruption that would follow? But yet it's okay for Hispanics to say that? No. Those are some scary wicked people with some really odd ideas.
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

SnoozeControl;441073 wrote: Sort of off topic here, but extreme fundamentalists and white supremacists that have their own militias scare me too. No one group of people is without psychos or news whores that are only interested in getting their sound bite published...



Yes, the fundys are truly scary. In my opinion, not as much as the supremacists groups only because (I think) over the decades we may have put a decent sized dent into racism so that we might be eroding it bit by bit, but the funds still have a belief foothold in society that's considered acceptable by far too many. I guess what I mean, is that I think they hold more power than say, the KKK. I find that disturbing.



Sorry. Went off topic. :thinking:
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

RedGlitter;440945 wrote: I read all your highlighted stuff and with a few exceptions, don't see a major problem. Illegal or not, a person who was in a public relations field and could not speak the common language of that country would **** me off too. And does. The other "assumptions" speak for themselves but I don't feel calling someone a slur such as bigot is any better than acting like one. If you would like to see a change in a person, there are better ways of letting that be known.
Not sure what you mean when you refer to highlighted stuff. Any highlights were probably incidental.



The most positive thing about you is that you look for the good. So do I, usually, but I don't disregard bigotry and I call it when I see it. Does that make me bigotted against bigots? If there is such a label I'll wear it proudly.

If a house has mold, one group of people come to expose the rotting wood to the air and a different crew comes later to rebuild and make it beautiful again. In this case, I've exposed the rot. I'll leave the rest to you.



RedGlitter wrote: BTW, your comment about my accusations (?!) of Chonsi? What are you referring to? I don't believe I accused her of anything but what she had said herself, but I would like to see where you think I did as that was not my intention. Thanks.
Oops! That was meant for Spinner, not you. :o I've edited the post. Sorry.
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable;441116 wrote: Not sure what you mean when you refer to highlighted stuff. Any highlights were probably incidental.



The most positive thing about you is that you look for the good. So do I, usually, but I don't disregard bigotry and I call it when I see it. Does that make me bigotted against bigots? If there is such a label I'll wear it proudly.

If a house has mold, one group of people come to expose the rotting wood to the air and a different crew comes later to rebuild and make it beautiful again. In this case, I've exposed the rot. I'll leave the rest to you.



Oops! That was meant for Spinner, not you. :o I've edited the post. Sorry.





Hi. I thought you had highlighted some stuff you wanted me to see because it was in orange. Thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it as I do try to find the good in people and situations and I notice that you do too. I am relieved to know that little part up there wasn't for me as I was concerned that you or anyone might think I had accused Chonsi of anything. Glad that's sorted out. :o I understand where you are coming from. Maybe it's the underdog in me but I have such a kneejerk reaction to anything that remotely hints at censorship that I see red over it, apparently much as you do with bigotry. There are a lot of things people say that I really hate but I usually (there are a couple subjects where I can't hold back) refrain from trying to tell them what they can think or say or do because *I* hold some unpopular views too at times and I want the freedom to do that without being corrected or browbeaten or censored in any form.



I haven't changed my mind as far as my opinions go whether on this subject or on illegal residents but I'm not happy about having posted when I was so worked up. I try really hard to keep a firm control but I can get caught up just like the next person. Anyway, thank you for your considerate post. :)
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by chonsigirl »

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and we can accept or not the other poster's facts/advice/opinions. Thst is what makes this a discussion. That is what makes us a person.

To resort to calling me not a good American because I hold my own opinions, is very judgmental. I do not have to agree with what other have stated. And so far, I have seen nothing that would change my way of thinking. And none of my statements makes me a bad American at all. It is only your opinion that views me as such.

Spinner, you really have no right to ask me who you are dealing with, I did not ask such things of you. I do consider that rude. As everywhere else, we are all equal. If you want my educational background, since I believe you have gathered enough on my personal background-or else go back and do some reading of posts-in a nutshell it is this:

BA History Cal Poly Pomona

MA History Cal State Fullerton major fields: ancient history, US Urbanization

PhD UCRiverside major fields: Native American history, 19th century US, Latin America

I am well written in my field of Native Americas, and publish many times a year and speak at national conferences on this topic.



I also will call things as I see it, and if I view the topic or comment as one of prejudice, I will say so.
User avatar
cherandbuster
Posts: 8594
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 11:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by cherandbuster »

Accountable;440936 wrote: Spinner, Chonsi's one of my best friends. I'm resisting coming to her aid with every fiber, but she can well handle herself. I have to say it's funny to see the accusations you throw at her, knowing her as I do.



She's a fabulous person; hardly the person you apparently see. When you're ready to take a break from this thread, check her history.



Well said, Acc.

I have the utmost respect for Chonsigirl. As much or more than anyone else in the Garden.

Her professional credentials are above reproach.

And her opinions, unlike Saffron's, are without bigotry and deserve to be heard.
Live Life with

PASSION
!:guitarist





User avatar
zinkyusa
Posts: 3298
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:34 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by zinkyusa »

Everyone take a deep breath and relax now..In a way this has been an excellent thread and is a microcosm of the debate going on the US right now about a very emotional issue. Obviously there is no easy answer and no one is entirely right in their viewpoint..The main thing is the issue is being discussed. If we can all kiss and make up that will be even better.:-4
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by chonsigirl »

:)

That was a very sweet comment, and you are correct. It is only a discussion, and everyone is entitled to their opnion. We are all equal participants of the FG experience...........................
User avatar
YZGI
Posts: 11518
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:24 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by YZGI »

Okay back to being flippant.:)
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

:wah: YZGI, I enjoy your humor.



Zinky, thanks, I agree with all you said.



So...how about the Mexican Immigration Policy or some of that scary diatribe? Anyone have any comments good or bad?? :)
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

Is the past-tense of flippant, back flippant?
User avatar
Lulu2
Posts: 6016
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Lulu2 »

Flappant, please....past perfect tense.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

Accountable;440936 wrote: Spinner, Chonsi's one of my best friends. I'm resisting coming to her aid with every fiber, but she can well handle herself. I have to say it's funny to see the accusations you throw at her, knowing her as I do.



She's a fabulous person; hardly the person you apparently see. When you're ready to take a break from this thread, check her history.



Accountable, I am not attacking her..I don't know her. I am attacking what I perceive to be a mindset that is leading this country down the path to the "poor house":



1. No one is allowed to have an opinion that differs from another's simply because that person has illegal aliens in their families? (I am not referring to Americans of Hispanic descent.)



2. Just because it is a perceived necessity of someone that they must come here, does not give them right to trample our laws for their convenience.



3. If you can justify breaking one law, then you can justify breaking all laws. Then you have the break down of society...there would be anarchy.





If you had a house that would hold 500 people, and a disaster hit your area..and you had taken in 360 people but there was another 1000 coming down the street demanding that you let them in also..what would you do?

You would say, "Look ..I sympathize with you and I can take a few more, but it is mathematically impossible for me to take you all. I can't do it."



They get mad and storm your house. Your attempt at generousity has now turned them into mob rule. Who is at fault? Is there any fault. Should you just give up you home to these people...give them your house and yourself become homeless?



This is what people, illegal aliens...are asking us to do. And they are spurred on by people who are willing to give away what isn't theirs to give. Namely the money we pay from road taxes, property taxes and health care for our own families. So..if these generous people want to give their money, property and jobs up...fine. But do not cause me to have to do this.



That's how I see it.



Spinner
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Well said and polite too.:-6
User avatar
Lulu2
Posts: 6016
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Lulu2 »

Spinner, it's how I see it, too. Interesting how those of us in states which have the most direct damage from this invasion are the most vocal!

Let's use your example of life after the horrific disaster. You're not unfeeling and you might even be willing to help some of these people. But how do you know which of them are honest and which are criminals? How much crime can you absorb in your house? How many murders and gang wars and drug deals are the result of illegal immigration? How much is the country willing to absorb, just because we feel sorry for someone who's poorer than we are?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

Spinner;441944 wrote: Accountable, I am not attacking her..I don't know her. I am attacking what I perceive to be a mindset that is leading this country down the path to the "poor house":



1. No one is allowed to have an opinion that differs from another's simply because that person has illegal aliens in their families? (I am not referring to Americans of Hispanic descent.)
I was referring more to my instinct to come to a friend's aid, whether she needs it or not, more than anything.
User avatar
guppy
Posts: 6793
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 5:49 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by guppy »

anybody got a good cheese enchilada recipe???:D
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Does anyone feel it is correct of Mexico to demand that US take in their citizens when Mexico has such stringent requirements and policies for immigrants into their own country? :confused:
User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

Lulu2;440943 wrote: In 1997, President Ernesto Zedillo said, "I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders. (National council of La Raza, July 23, 1997.)



Mario Obledo, co-founder of the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF) said that "California is going to be a Hispanic state and anyone who doesn't like it should leave. We are going to take over all of the political instituions in California." (KIEV Radio...June 16, 1998.)



Mexican consul-General Jose Angel Pescador Osuna said "We are practicing la Reconquista in California." (Southwestern University School of Law, Feb. 6, 1998.)



MECHA, the Chicano student group which has chapters on most high school/college campuses (including one in my own city) makes no secret of its goal to return California to Mexico, including all the wealth and resources accumulated by those American citizens who have made it what it is.



Ask me why I'm so passionate in the fight against this illegal invasion.....





Thank you for posting this. It is evidence of the militant agenda of the radical illegal alien groups.



Let me be very clear here.



I am not ANTI-IMMIGRANT. I am ANTI-ILLEGAL ALIEN



The press and the liberals have used word art to blur the meaning of these and other such words. "Illegal alien" and "undocumented immigrant" are NOT the same things. What part of illegal is not getting through to these people?



I do not care who you are, where you live..it is a basic Right and human instinct to protect your family and your home. There have been territorial boundaries since people lived in caves. Even animal do it.



I will not apologize for being one who stands up and fights any perceived threat to my home, my family...and this includes my friends and my country.



If this was a century ago, I'd be on the front lines with a rifle but today..the pen is mightier than the sword. Just look at politics.



My intent is not to insult any person here on a personal basis but I am not now, nor ever have been politically correct. If someone, anyone, feels I have attacked them personally, I offer my sincerest apologies.



But my opinions are still the same. And I don't care if it is Mexicans (they are just the most numerous), or Vietnamese, or whomever....you are welcome here ..legally.



BTW, I host a discussion group on Yahoo that deals with law, color of law, lawful & legal, etc....It is called the Jefferson Forum. If anyone wants to check it out.



Spinner



User avatar
Lulu2
Posts: 6016
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Lulu2 »

Glitter, it's no more "right" than the fact that US citizens can't own land in Mexico within a certain distance of the coastline, nor can we get jobs there, unless Mexicans can't do that particular function.

US citizens who live in Mexico are required to maintain an account in a Mexcian bank and some of these accounts have been siezed by the government!

US citizens are routinely charged more for utilities and civic services.

And we're not always popular there, either.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
User avatar
Lulu2
Posts: 6016
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Lulu2 »

Your point about illegals from many nations is valid, Spinner. I don't know about your area, but we have uncounted illegals from Asian nations and a multitude who had visitor/student visas and just never went home.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
User avatar
guppy
Posts: 6793
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 5:49 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by guppy »

we have a mexican compound in a town close to us. it is a major drug gang. alot of people are being killed in the area. :thinking:
Saffron
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:33 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Saffron »

Oh so what's the matter here, did everyone stop arguing because I left last night?

:yh_rotfl
Your Kitty Forum

My Website
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

Saffron;441965 wrote: Oh so what's the matter here, did everyone stop arguing because I left last night?

:yh_rotfl

:confused:
User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

guppy;441963 wrote: we have a mexican compound in a town close to us. it is a major drug gang. alot of people are being killed in the area. :thinking:





Oh yes...the south, southwest and east sides of Houston are that way too. The gang types have typical gang mentality. No respect for anyone's property, or for anyone period.



But...if someone is coming across the border, trampling through someone's property, leaving trash, food, debris strewn across the place...what makes you think they'll have respect for anyone else once they get here.



They don't appear to appreciate what they have once they get here either. They just demand more of it.



What is interesting is this idea of social welfare for people who haven't paid into the system. Where do they think the money comes from?



There is an old saying: Water rises to its own level.



Once the politicians let all these people come here and stay..it won't be 20 years and the US will look like Mexico.... then where will they run to..invade Canada?



Have you seen the this http://www.spp.gov/ & http://stopspp.com/stopspp/



Spinner
User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

Saffron;441965 wrote: Oh so what's the matter here, did everyone stop arguing because I left last night?

:yh_rotfl





Don't be too disappointed....I'm sure it will revive again....



Spinner
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by chonsigirl »

Thank you Spinner for your reply, and yes, it was very nicely written and polite.

No one is allowed to have an opinion that differs from another's simply because that person has illegal aliens in their families? (I am not referring to Americans of Hispanic descent.)



No, we can each have our own opinions. That is our right as human beings. We can choose to disagree, and still be amiable to each other.

Just because it is a perceived necessity of someone that they must come here, does not give them right to trample our laws for their convenience.



This could go on a tangent, about the United States trampling laws of other nations also, but it detracts from the topic. I suggest the laws should be changed, to allow more immigration so they can be here legally. And I am not for deportation of those who are here and contributing positively to society.

If you can justify breaking one law, then you can justify breaking all laws. Then you have the break down of society...there would be anarchy.



Well, the United States became it's own sovereign nation doing just that. They broke the law, and the law won, as the song goes. There are numerous examples. I refer to my response to your #2 remark.



*off topic remark*

When threads return to a good discussion format, it is easier for people to want to participate and contribute. It is rare that I venture into these threads at all, because of the way they have been sidetracked in the past. My commendations to all for allowing a discussion format of the issues. And my apologies to Spinner if I in any way seemed to offensive in my replies to her. We will each have our viewpoints, and they may differ, but that is what makes us individuals who decide these issues for themselves.
User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

Lulu2;441959 wrote: Glitter, it's no more "right" than the fact that US citizens can't own land in Mexico within a certain distance of the coastline, nor can we get jobs there, unless Mexicans can't do that particular function.



US citizens who live in Mexico are required to maintain an account in a Mexcian bank and some of these accounts have been siezed by the government!



US citizens are routinely charged more for utilities and civic services.



And we're not always popular there, either.





You can pretty much surmise, from just this thread, that we are sitting on a powder keg. I wonder what will be the match that sets it off?



Imperial Admiral Yamamoto, who conceived, designed and promoted the Pearl harbor attack, cautioned against a war with the United States. Having twice held naval attache positions within the Japanese embassy in the U. S. Capitol, he knew well the industrial strength, material wealth and temperament of the United States. Overruled by his superiors, he dedicated his efforts as Commander in Chief of the Imperial Combined Fleet to a successful attack. Upon completion of the attack he is quoted as saying "We have awakened a sleeping giant and have instilled in him a terrible resolve".



I fear this resolve will be seen again if the powder keg blows.



Spinner
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

chonsigirl;441994 wrote: This could go on a tangent, about the United States trampling laws of other nations also, but it detracts from the topic. I suggest the laws should be changed, to allow more immigration so they can be here legally. And I am not for deportation of those who are here and contributing positively to society.

I'm all for opening up immigation more, but the ones that are here illegally are criminals and should not be rewarded for criminal behavior. We don't turn our heads if a bank robber buys a nice house for his family with his gains, do we? Robin Hood was a thief, too.
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by chonsigirl »

Well, I do not see them as criminals. So that is where we agree to disagree.:)
User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

chonsigirl;441994 wrote: Thank you Spinner for your reply, and yes, it was very nicely written and polite.







No, we can each have our own opinions. That is our right as human beings. We can choose to disagree, and still be amiable to each other.







This could go on a tangent, about the United States trampling laws of other nations also, but it detracts from the topic. I suggest the laws should be changed, to allow more immigration so they can be here legally. And I am not for deportation of those who are here and contributing positively to society.







Well, the United States became it's own sovereign nation doing just that. They broke the law, and the law won, as the song goes. There are numerous examples. I refer to my response to your #2 remark.







*off topic remark*



When threads return to a good discussion format, it is easier for people to want to participate and contribute. It is rare that I venture into these threads at all, because of the way they have been sidetracked in the past. My commendations to all for allowing a discussion format of the issues. And my apologies to Spinner if I in any way seemed to offensive in my replies to her. We will each have our viewpoints, and they may differ, but that is what makes us individuals who decide these issues for themselves.



OK...from what you have posted here..it sounds as though you are attempting to equate the Revolutionary War to that of the plight of the Mexicans in Mexico who erroneously believe that they still have a right to this land.



If anyone, IMHO, has a right to this land...it would be the Native Americans.



I now believe that you are either an illegal yourself or you are just one generation removed from Mexico. Why do I say this? Because you do not seem to understand the impetus for the Revolutionary War....from what you have written. This is not meant as a detraction..only an observation based on comment.



The colonies had tried unsuccessfully to get King George to listen to them. His basic attitude was that of "Shut-up and just pay your taxes". After repeated efforts and feeling they had no other choice they made the following declaration:



When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.



You can click the text to read it all.



As for Texas, the following part of their Declaration sounds an awful lot like today's relationship between the American people and the Federal Gov't.:



When a government has ceased to protect the lives, liberty and property of the people, from whom its legitimate powers are derived, and for the advancement of whose happiness it was instituted, and so far from being a guarantee for the enjoyment of those inestimable and inalienable rights, becomes an instrument in the hands of evil rulers for their oppression.



When the Federal Republican Constitution of their country, which they have sworn to support, no longer has a substantial existence, and the whole nature of their government has been forcibly changed, without their consent, from a restricted federative republic, composed of sovereign states, to a consolidated central military despotism, in which every interest is disregarded but that of the army and the priesthood, both the eternal enemies of civil liberty, the everready minions of power, and the usual instruments of tyrants.



When, long after the spirit of the constitution has departed, moderation is at length so far lost by those in power, that even the semblance of freedom is removed, and the forms themselves of the constitution discontinued, and so far from their petitions and remonstrances being regarded, the agents who bear them are thrown into dungeons, and mercenary armies sent forth to force a new government upon them at the point of the bayonet.



When, in consequence of such acts of malfeasance and abdication on the part of the government, anarchy prevails, and civil society is dissolved into its original elements. In such a crisis, the first law of nature, the right of self-preservation, the inherent and inalienable rights of the people to appeal to first principles, and take their political affairs into their own hands in extreme cases, enjoins it as a right towards themselves, and a sacred obligation to their posterity, to abolish such government, and create another in its stead, calculated to rescue them from impending dangers, and to secure their future welfare and happiness.



Nations, as well as individuals, are amenable for their acts to the public opinion of mankind. A statement of a part of our grievances is therefore submitted to an impartial world, in justification of the hazardous but unavoidable step now taken, of severing our political connection with the Mexican people, and assuming an independent attitude among the nations of the earth.



The Mexican government, by its colonization laws, invited and induced the Anglo-American population of Texas to colonize its wilderness under the pledged faith of a written constitution, that they should continue to enjoy that constitutional liberty and republican government to which they had been habituated in the land of their birth, the United States of America.

In this expectation they have been cruelly disappointed, inasmuch as the Mexican nation has acquiesced in the late changes made in the government by General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, who having overturned the constitution of his country, now offers us the cruel alternative, either to abandon our homes, acquired by so many privations, or submit to the most intolerable of all tyranny, the combined despotism of the sword and the priesthood. ...





And there were many Mexican families that sided with the Texans as well.



I have to go to work now..but I'll continue tomorrow....



Spinner

User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

Accountable;442005 wrote: I'm all for opening up immigation more, but the ones that are here illegally are criminals and should not be rewarded for criminal behavior. We don't turn our heads if a bank robber buys a nice house for his family with his gains, do we? Robin Hood was a thief, too.





I appreciate your nature to be helpful but y'all aren't getting the message.



America cannot take in any more immigrants, legal or illegal right now...and not for another ten years. The massive run on the country by the Mexicans have ruined it for others hoping to get in here. This is not opinion. This is a fact.



http://www.frostywooldridge.com/articles/art_2005oct10.html



I realize this is a tough pill to swallow but please do the research so that you'll see the big picture. It isn't a question of want to or don't want to...it's a question of cannot.



Gotta run...late now.





Spinner
User avatar
Accountable
Posts: 24818
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Accountable »

Pfft. Never say cannot. I don't accept cannot.
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Spin, I read that article rather cursorily, and I didn't see what I was looking for. I assume you are saying US cannot take in any more foreigners, period, due to population and space issues?? If this is what you meant, I'm not sure what would be the difference between taking in foreigners or giving birth to the same number of US citizens or taking in legal immigrants. If there's no room, there's no room, regardless of who we're talking about. But maybe I am misunderstanding you...?



My objection lies solely with the fact that I feel American citizens' rights and wellbeing should come before that of a criminal. Criminal meaning a person of any ethnicity who comes here with disregard for the proper legal channels.
User avatar
chonsigirl
Posts: 33631
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by chonsigirl »

I now believe that you are either an illegal yourself or you are just one generation removed from Mexico. Why do I say this? Because you do not seem to understand the impetus for the Revolutionary War....from what you have written. This is not meant as a detraction..only an observation based on comment.



I am 100% white, and I am sorry to inform you, your observation is incorrect. I married into a Hispanic family. And they are many generations removed from Mexico.

Otherwise, I think I will absent myself from a thread that seems to promote such negative feelings towards fellow human beings. It does nothing positive about the situation, no matter which viewpoint you take. Or our perspective of one another here at FG.
User avatar
Spinner
Posts: 75
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:15 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Spinner »

Well...again..I was not trying or intending to be disrespectful. Had we been conversing face to face, you would have understood from my tone of voice and facial expressions that I was just trying to comprehend why you would equate the two.



Open dialogue is always better than closing up....but that is your right.



Spinner
User avatar
zinkyusa
Posts: 3298
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:34 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by zinkyusa »

The ONLY way illegal immigration will cease IMO is when Mexico and other countries in SA are able to offer some sort of a decent life to their people. This where our efforts should be, encouraging and assisting in political stability first and economic assistance secondly. A few less dollars to Israel and a few more for our neigbors to the south. That or start shooting them down at the borders. Wringing our hands and gnashing our teeth will not stop it. I be trying to leave if I was poor and living in Mexico. What do you really expect them to do? This problem is not unique to Hispanics btw, Europe is dealing with immigrants from the ME and people have been trying to get out of Russia for years..
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
User avatar
Lulu2
Posts: 6016
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:34 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by Lulu2 »

GLITTER "Criminal meaning a person of any ethnicity who comes here with disregard for the proper legal channels."

+++++++++ I'm always puzzled by folks who don't understand how a person can be "illegal." The term is about ILLEGAL CONDUCT and that's just what Glitter's pointed out quite clearly. How can anyone (my friend Chonsi's included here) not see that illegal activity is ILLEGAL ACTIVITY?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay

Return to “Immigration”