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telephoto lens
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Post by telephoto lens »

telephoto lens wrote: Now that I hit the vaunted 15 posts I will be able to supply the link where I learned the NAFTA information. It will take me some time but I will find it.



Here is the link regarding the destruction NAFTA has done to the Mexican economy:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Thanks, Lens. Y'know, as much as I love to throw this kind of stuff in people's faces when they talk about how great gov't programs are, how credible is this source? I mean, they throw all kinds of stats in the article, but never say where the numbers come from.
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Post by Accountable »

Just poking around in that same site (commondreams.org) & found this article, originally published by Inter Press Service:





"For example, she [Anuradha Mittal, executive director of the Oakland Institute] said, Mexico has been growing corn for 10,000 years. But under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which was supposed to level the playing field, Mexico opened its markets to imports from the United States, including corn.



"'Mexican farmers, mostly operating small-scale family farms, were unable to compete against giant U.S. corn producers,' Mittal told IPS. These corn producers are the largest single recipient of U.S. government subsidies -- 10.1 billion dollars, or some 10 times the total Mexican agricultural budget in 2000.



"Not surprisingly, then, U.S. corn exports to Mexico have tripled, and they account for almost one-third of the domestic Mexican market, leading to an acute crisis in the Mexican corn sector.



"She pointed out that dumping of cheap subsidised corn into Mexico has reduced real prices of Mexican corn by more than 70 percent. The result is that millions of poor farmers have been displaced from their land."
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner »

telephoto lens wrote: Here is the link regarding the destruction NAFTA has done to the Mexican economy:



http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-30.htm



If you want to really understand the B-I-G picture, view this before it is removed from the web.



I've seen it twice. It is almost 2hrs long so grab a drink & some popcorn...AND pencil & paper as you will want to take notes!



http://video. google.com/ videoplay? docid=-431273027 7175242198&q=america+freedom+ to+fascism+ movie



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Post by Saffron »

The thing is (and I experienced this on Friday at work), is that they say they've come here to work, but they don't. I was at at temp job on Friday and all weekend. The male illegal was not working but talking on his cell phone. While making the female Mexicans climb up into the huge trash bins and push trash down. I did not see him working the entire time he was there. And then he started an argument with me because I said something to him! He called me a "redneck" and accused me of being jealous of him taking my job. I told him I am going to report him and get him fired. He didn't show up to work the next day. And I did report him this morning to the agency. He also chased me in a little golf cart, harrassment. We were working at the fairgrounds all weekend.

I am sorry, but I cannot stand them. Not only was he not working; but after our supervisors went home and we were all there by ourselves, the female illegal Mexicans began picking up bottle and cans in plastic bags to take home. So they were not working either!

All of this nonsense about them "taking our jobs away" or that they "do the work that we won't do", is bull. They don't work. They don't know the meaning of work. :-5
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Post by Accountable »

This is me, not stirring up trouble. :)
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Post by Lulu2 »

Where is the REAL "Accountable?" What've you done with him?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
RedGlitter
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Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable...I'm counting on you here, buddy.

This is not the time to be PC!



:wah:
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

I'm going to take a REAL exception to that "they don't know the meaning of work" statement! I know many illegals who work very hard at what they do, trying to make money to send home.

It's easy to villify the many based on the overwhelmingly negative impact of illegal immigration, but there are undoubtedly hundreds of thousands who are "honest" and hard-working.

I put quotes around the "honest" part because, obviously, they are criminals, by virtue of knowingly breaking immigration laws to be here. It's not an easy issue...nothing "black or white" about it.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by RedGlitter »

Okay, I might get static for this but I am not taking any offense at Saff's post. Where I live there are a LOT of illegal aliens at work (and not!) I understand what she says and I agree with it, based on my own observations, which is about all any of us can go on- what we see, ourselves.

Why is it okay to assume that because a lot of illegals work hard, that there are none who don't? Who actually knows the correct ratio for this?!

A generality is a generality. To me saying most illegals work hard (or whatever) is only the opposite of what Saffron said. I don't see it as an insult. God I hate what PC has done to this world! It's okay to think for yourself! I don't see it as villifying a lot of people...it may not be a pleasant subject but there is truth in it.
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Post by Lulu2 »

Glitter...I'm the LEAST "P.C." person you know. But there was a rather blanket statement up above, and as much as I resent illegals here, the vast majority of those I've known personally have been working hard. In the same way that I've known some native-born workers who were milking the system, I'm sure there are illegals who do the same, but it's not really fair to paint the many with the observations of a few.

JMHO.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by RedGlitter »

Lulu2 wrote: Glitter...I'm the LEAST "P.C." person you know. But there was a rather blanket statement up above, and as much as I resent illegals here, the vast majority of those I've known personally have been working hard. In the same way that I've known some native-born workers who were milking the system, I'm sure there are illegals who do the same, but it's not really fair to paint the many with the observations of a few.



JMHO.



But that's what I'm saying from the opposite perspective... sure it's nice to assume the good in everyone I suppose but how do we know it's accurate? Personally I don't know for certain either way, if *most* illegals are hardworking or if they're sluffs. I hear both opinions, but I only know what I see. Why are we assuming most illegals are hardworking? Who says so? I'm playing devil's advocate here, not trying to insult you or anyone else.



I wonder if it's just based on what we each "know" to be true...? In my town, what I have mostly seen with my own eyes is just about what Saffron pointed out. So why would I not assume that to be the general case?

It's like the thing with the French hygiene issue we just had...I truly didn't know if that was a stereotype or if it was a general observation so I asked and got poked with the PC Stick. To be honest I still don't know but there must be some kernel of fact in there for it to stick. Doesn't mean all French peopel smell, I am sure. But why is it that people tell me "most" do? :thinking:



I was afraid to post that trailer link in the redneck flamingo thread, thinking I;d get called out for picking on all kinds of people. I can vouch that there are a LOT of trashy mobile homes and a LOT of trashy rednecks. Not all by any means but from what I see and know...I don't think it's wrong to say most.



I don't like to hurt anyone's feelings so in that respect I am for PC. But other than that it makes me nuts because it sugarcoats a lot of factuality.



Did I just highjack this thread? :o I'm sorry. Okay...I feel that stick coming on again... :cool:
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Post by Accountable »

Saffron wrote: They don't work. They don't know the meaning of work.
RedGlitter wrote: To me saying most illegals work hard (or whatever) is only the opposite of what Saffron said.
These are not opposite statements. One is all-encompassing (they), and one allows for exceptions (most).



I've ben debating on whether to re-expose this bigot for the new guys, but I don't feel like having my Knuckles Rapped. So here's what I'll do: I'll tell you that Arnold and I already went a couple rounds with Saffron the bigot on February 5th of this year. As long as she sticks to her vapid chitchat I have no problem with her, but I don't have much self-restraint when facing bigotry.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Accountable wrote: These are not opposite statements. One is all-encompassing (they), and one allows for exceptions (most).






Ok, I can agree with that.
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Post by Lulu2 »

From my email this morning....a friend in Texas has forwarded this. Unfortunately, I don't know WHERE it was published, so I can't vouch for the author. It does discuss something I know to be true...illegals can get free health care by virtue of being "poor," while citizens without health insurance can be denied it.







"Illegal Immigrants: Equal Medical Care Or Better Medical Care? -- by Bryanna Bevens , military wife



"As I mentioned in a previous column, I am hugely fat pregnant right now

(by the time this is published I may have had the little critter.hopefully) so I have baby issues on the brain.



"Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Texas is a fairly famous institution and for a variety of reasons:



1. John F. Kennedy died there in 1963

2. Lee Harvey Oswald died there shortly after

3. Jack Ruby-who killed Lee Harvey Oswald, died there a few years later..by coincidence



"On the flip side, Parkland is also home to the second busiest maternity ward in the country with almost 16,000 new babies arriving each year.

(That's almost 44 per day---every day)



'"A recent patient survey indicated that 70 percent of the women who gave birth at Parkland in the first three months of 2006 were illegal immigrants.' Crikey, that's 11,200 anchor babies born every year .just in Dallas. According to the article, the hospital spent $70.7 million delivering 15,938 babies in 2004 but managed to end up with almost $8 million dollars in surplus funding. Medicaid kicked in $34.5 million, Dallas County taxpayers kicked in $31.3 million and the feds tossed in another $9.5 million.



"'The average patient in Parkland's maternity wards is 25 years old, married and giving birth to her second child.' She is also an illegal immigrant. By law, pregnant women cannot be denied medical care based on their immigration status or ability to pay. OK, fine. That doesn't mean they should receive better care than everyday, middle-class American citizens. But at Parkland Hospital, they do.



"Parkland Memorial Hospital has nine prenatal clinics. NINE.



"The Dallas Morning News article followed a Hispanic woman who was a patient at one of the clinics and pregnant with her third child---her previous two were also born at Parkland. Her first two deliveries were free and the Mexican native was grateful because it would have cost $200 to have them in Mexico. This time, the hospital wants her to pay $10 per visit and $100 for the delivery but she was unsure if she could come up with the money. Not that it matters, the hospital won't turn her away. (I wonder why they even bother asking at this point.)



"How long has this been going on? What are the long-term affects?



"Well, another subject of the article was born at Parkland in 1986 shortly after her mother entered the U.S. illegally---now she is having her own child there as well. (That's right, she's technically a U.S. citizen.) These women receive free prenatal care including medication, nutrition, birthing classes and child care classes. They also get freebies such as car seats, bottles, diapers and formula.



"Most of these things are available to American citizens as well but only for low-income applicants and even then, the red tape involved is almost insurmountable.



"Because these women are illegal immigrants they do not have to provide any sort of legitimate identification---no proof of income. An American citizen would have to provide a social security number which would reveal their annual income---an illegal immigrant need only claim to be poor and the hospital must take them at their word.



"My husband is a pilot for the United States Navy

(yes, he fought in Iraq) and while the health care is good, we Navy wives don't get any of these perks! "Car seats? Diapers? Not so much. "So my question is this: Does our public medical care system treat illegal immigrants better than American citizens? Yes it does!



"As I mentioned, the care I have received is perfectly adequate but it's bare bones, meat and potato medical care---not top of line.



"Their (the illegals) medical care is free---simply because they are illegal immigrants? Once again, there is no way to verify their income.



"Parkland Hospital offers indigent care to Dallas County residents who earn less than $40,000 per year. (They also have to prove that they did not refuse health coverage at their current job Yeah, the 'free' care is not so easy for Americans.)



"There are about 140 patients who received roughly $4 million dollars for un-reimbursed medical care. As it turns out, they did not qualify for free treatment because they resided outside of Dallas County. So the hospital is going to sue them! Illegals get it all free! But U.S. citizens who live outside of Dallas County get sued! How stupid is this?



"As if that isn't annoying enough, the illegal immigrant patients are actually complaining about hospital staff not speaking Spanish. In this AP story, the author speaks with a woman who is upset that she had to translate comments from the hospital staff into Spanish for her husband. The doctor was trying to explain the situation to the family and the mother was forced to translate for her husband who only spoke Spanish. This was apparently a great injustice to her.



"In an attempt to create a Spanish-speaking staff, Parkland Hospital is now providing incentives in the form of extra pay for applicants who speak Spanish. Additionally, medical students at the University of Texas Southwestern for which Parkland Hospital is the training facility will now have a Spanish language requirement added to their already jammed-packed curriculum. No other school in the country boasts such a ridiculous multi-semester

(multicultural) requirement.



"In the meantime, I have to end my column here. I have to go buy a car seat."



(Ed: Sorry for the length, but this needs wide circulation----particularly to our "employees" in the Congress.)
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Spinner
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Post by Spinner »

Lulu2 wrote: From my email this morning....a friend in Texas has forwarded this. Unfortunately, I don't know WHERE it was published, so I can't vouch for the author. It does discuss something I know to be true...illegals can get free health care by virtue of being "poor," while citizens without health insurance can be denied it.




LuLu, look here:



http://www.vdare.com/bevens/060807_parkland.htm









Illegal Mexicans, or any other nationality, have both good and bad. They have workers and they have lazy bums.



Just as some Blacks try to play the race card when they don't get their way, some illegals sit on their rears and milk the system.



As for the incident Saff shared, one has to remember that the mexican culture is a male dominant "macho" culture. The women do as they are told, the men can do nothing wrong...it is seen in how they raise their children..the difference between the boys and the girls. This is seen less in the Americanized generations but it is still very strong in the ones who come over from Mexico.



My daughter worked for a doctors office and she was "forced out" by the 4 mexican girls because she would not put up with them not doing their share. But because she was seen as the one making trouble, they were going to fire her so she quit.



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Post by Lulu2 »

Thanks, Spinner...I was hoping one of our Texans would recognize this piece.

We MUST stop this overwhelming illegal invasion!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Sheryl »

Lulu that was an excellant article thanks for posting it. Spinner thanks for the link.

When I worked in the ER I could see out to the drive up to see what was coming in. It always peeved me off to see an expensive car like a Cadillac Escalade pull up, then the persons getting out hand me a medicaid card. :-5



Oh and another thing that hacks me off. To see an ad in the paper for a job, they say they are equal oppurtunity employers, but then at bottom of the ad it sais bilingual preferred. :mad:
"Girls are crazy! I'm not ever getting married, I can make my own sandwiches!"

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Post by RedGlitter »

Lulu2 wrote:

"As if that isn't annoying enough, the illegal immigrant patients are actually complaining about hospital staff not speaking Spanish. In this AP story, the author speaks with a woman who is upset that she had to translate comments from the hospital staff into Spanish for her husband. The doctor was trying to explain the situation to the family and the mother was forced to translate for her husband who only spoke Spanish. This was apparently a great injustice to her.






Oh GOD! Don't even start me on this!!!!

That shows me just how ungrateful they are! Geez- the few times I've been to Mexico, I use what teeny amount of Spanish I know out of consideration. I'm just a visitor there for a day! Why must we placate these whining, usurping women and learn their language to make *their* experience better?!



:mad:
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Post by chonsigirl »

Saffron wrote:

All of this nonsense about them "taking our jobs away" or that they "do the work that we won't do", is bull. They don't work. They don't know the meaning of work. :-5



Obviously, neither do you, with asking people on FG to do your homework.

The Mexican people know how to work, and are respectable members of our society. When others make value judgments on them, it shows a lack respect for human beings in general. To categorize a group of people by the experience of a few, shows a lack of knowledge of people in general.

I will call you out on every further prejudice comment you make, Saffron. I do not like bigotry, such as you have exhibited in the post. Are you saying my family does not know the meaning of work? Say it to my face, girl.



I work 3 jobs, take care of an invalid husband. My children, who are all adults, work 40+ hours each week. My #2 daughter works 2 jobs, goes to college more then full time, and does her own homework. She does not cheat, and ask others to do hers. She stays up late at night to complete her asignments.

I lived 10 years in a barrio-a Mexican ghetto. I saw hard working people, with a great love of family. You descriptions are skewed by your narrow vision.
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Post by Saffron »

chonsigirl;440230 wrote: Obviously, neither do you, with asking people on FG to do your homework.

The Mexican people know how to work, and are respectable members of our society. When others make value judgments on them, it shows a lack respect for human beings in general. To categorize a group of people by the experience of a few, shows a lack of knowledge of people in general.

I will call you out on every further prejudice comment you make, Saffron. I do not like bigotry, such as you have exhibited in the post. Are you saying my family does not know the meaning of work? Say it to my face, girl.



I work 3 jobs, take care of an invalid husband. My children, who are all adults, work 40+ hours each week. My #2 daughter works 2 jobs, goes to college more then full time, and does her own homework. She does not cheat, and ask others to do hers. She stays up late at night to complete her asignments.

I lived 10 years in a barrio-a Mexican ghetto. I saw hard working people, with a great love of family. You descriptions are skewed by your narrow vision.



You may have seen and known hard-working Mexicans. And so have I. But the workers I was with over the weekend were not working! I will not come here to defend myself from you. I saw what I saw with my own two eyes. And you can read what I wrote in my "homework essay" thread.

P.S. I don't have "narrow vision". I've lived in southern Calif. my entire life. And have never seen such a group of lazy humans in my life. That is my experience with them. If it offends you, then maybe you shouldn't read my threads any more.:rolleyes:

BTW, the brute that was harrassing me from Mexico while I was working, didn't show up for work the for rest of the job. In other words, he was too afraid of getting deported after the security saw what he did to me. So not only is he lazy. He is also a coward.
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chonsigirl
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Post by chonsigirl »

I am from So. Cal, and lived there for 45 years. So I think I have a little more knowledge on the situation then you, since I lived with them and have many relations among them.

And I will choose to reply to your threads when I see fit, and I will.
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Post by cherandbuster »

Saffron;440486 wrote: And you can read what I wrote in my "homework essay" thread.



So Saffron

Am I to assume that all people who live in church shelters are too damn lazy to do their own homework? :-3
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Post by Saffron »

chonsigirl;440230 wrote: Obviously, neither do you, with asking people on FG to do your homework.

The Mexican people know how to work, and are respectable members of our society. When others make value judgments on them, it shows a lack respect for human beings in general. To categorize a group of people by the experience of a few, shows a lack of knowledge of people in general.

I will call you out on every further prejudice comment you make, Saffron. I do not like bigotry, such as you have exhibited in the post. Are you saying my family does not know the meaning of work? Say it to my face, girl.



I work 3 jobs, take care of an invalid husband. My children, who are all adults, work 40+ hours each week. My #2 daughter works 2 jobs, goes to college more then full time, and does her own homework. She does not cheat, and ask others to do hers. She stays up late at night to complete her asignments.

I lived 10 years in a barrio-a Mexican ghetto. I saw hard working people, with a great love of family. You descriptions are skewed by your narrow vision.

And what were you doing, waiting for me to come back and post again?:wah: :yh_clap

Are you saying my family does not know the meaning of work? Say it to my face, girl.


Don't worry, I'd "say it to your face" loud and clear if we were supposed to be working somewhere and you weren't working. And that isn't what bigotry is. Calling it as I see it....that isn't bigotry.

and does her own homework. She does not cheat, and ask others to do hers.
Go ahead and throw in the red herring fallacy if you like. But the point of the post is "illegal aliens", not homework. If you want to call me "lazy" for posting my essay assignment here, you're only trying to change the subject.

It always cracks me up when Mexicans who aren't from Mexico defend lazy Mexican illegal aliens. I always wonder why they (people like yourself) feel it your responsibility to defend lazy Mexicans who suck off our system. Why do you feel it necessary to speak for them? Since your family isn't illegal.

There is a reason it is called illegal. they are here illegally. They are illegal. My grandfather and grandmother on both sides of my family migrated here from Ireland and went through all of the legal channels. And they had a good life. My grandfather worked for the Army, then competed as an athlete on the American track and field team in the Olympics. And he went to work for the Federal Government after that. And they never sucked off the American system. He put his own taxes and hard work into the system.

Hey, but who the hell wants to listen to me, I am just a homeless girl. But listen up.....where I live......the Mexicans come onto the property every single day and go through the trash bins. They never speak to anyone, and never say thank you. They are just scavengers. Every morning as I am leaving for work or class there comes a group of pregnant Mexican illegal alien women, and some pushing babies in strollers, to dig through the trash. They are obviously poor but still producing babies. And there is a huge building we call "the patio" where people come and drop off used clothing and all kinds of things. Sometimes I work in there hanging up garments. I volunteer. It's like a huge thrift store, but nobody has to pay money to take clothes. And these Mexican illegals dig through all of it and push you out of the way to get the clothes that are rejected and put into the trash. Every single day. Never once do they say thank you, or speak to anybody. And they take loaves of bread and other food. Never a thank you, or even a civil word. :-5
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Post by Saffron »

cherandbuster;440505 wrote: So Saffron

Am I to assume that all people who live in church shelters are too damn lazy to do their own homework? :-3



Maybe when I haven't slept in a couple of nights due to the drama and stress I live in. So yeah, sometimes I am a but lazy when it comes to homework. But when I am at work, I work. If I don't work, I don't eat much, and I have no money to save....in order to get my apartment.

But homework and illegal Mexcians have nothing to do with each other.
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Post by valerie »

cherandbuster;440505 wrote: So Saffron



Am I to assume that all people who live in church shelters are too damn lazy to do their own homework? :-3





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Post by valerie »

Saffron;440527 wrote:



But homework and illegal Mexcians have nothing to do with each other.



They do when YOU initiate the connection.



IMNSHO, saff, you should just give it up. You are dangerously close

to insulting people I care for greatly, and I'm just not going to let it

happen.



Spend time on whatever 'puter you have access to doing your

required work rather than posting tripe here.



Capische?
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Post by cherandbuster »

valerie;440547 wrote: They do when YOU initiate the connection.



IMNSHO, saff, you should just give it up. You are dangerously close

to insulting people I care for greatly, and I'm just not going to let it

happen.



Spend time on whatever 'puter you have access to doing your

required work rather than posting tripe here.



Capische?



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Post by chonsigirl »

It always cracks me up when Mexicans who aren't from Mexico defend lazy Mexican illegal aliens. I always wonder why they (people like yourself) feel it your responsibility to defend lazy Mexicans who suck off our system. Why do you feel it necessary to speak for them? Since your family isn't illegal.



I lived with them and can speak for them. Anyone can post their opinions, this is a free board. It doesn't matter who starts the thread, as members of FG we can post our thoughts. (I noticed your use of the singular pronoun, once posted, a thread is a thread for all, it is not yours)

Since I know many of them, I will speak for them.



There is a reason it is called illegal. they are here illegally. They are illegal. My grandfather and grandmother on both sides of my family migrated here from Ireland and went through all of the legal channels. And they had a good life. My grandfather worked for the Army, then competed as an athlete on the American track and field team in the Olympics. And he went to work for the Federal Government after that. And they never sucked off the American system. He put his own taxes and hard work into the system.




My position is well known, unless you are 100% Native America, we are all here illegally. From land taken by force, against the will of the people who owned it.

And do you say thank you everyday-I remember a thread you started just a few days ago complaining about responsibilities expected of you. If you do not like, do something about it. This is said in seriousness, not flippant reply. Go somewhere else, and do something else for an occupation. Look at the options you have open to you, and pursue them. If you are stymied about thinking of that, then start a thread to see if people can offer suggestions to help you change your circumstances.
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Post by YZGI »

CG, no disrespect but are you saying no one should have to abide by our immigration laws? If so I have to disagree.
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Post by chonsigirl »

Immigration laws need to be changed, as they have various times in our history.

Not only in our country alone, but in others.

General amnesty programs for illegals who currently live here have not worked, for many reasons.

1. The large sum of money to pay for it. Last program ran about $1,000 per person to file the paperwork, or more. It is a lengthy process, and requires legal assistance.

2. Not sufficient paperwork from their original land of origin to even do the paperwork. (It is almost impossible to obtain documents like birth certificates, baptismal records, etc. from Mexico and other countries-you must go there to get them, they will not send them.)

3. Fear-the people fear that even starting the paperwork will mean deportation. They are very relunctant to start the process of being here legally. And if there is not sufficient funds for the whole family to apply, they fear separation from each other.

A general overhaul of the system is needed.
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Post by YZGI »

I'm not talking about amnesty. I'm asking do you feel it is okay to be here illegally, and do you feel it is okay to shun our immigratiom laws?
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Post by chonsigirl »

Yes, I do. If there is no way legally for them to obtain entrance to living in the United States, I do not see it as a major violation of law to be here.

Not a popular view, but it is mine.

It is all right to disagree with me, that is everyone's right.

I think I see it from a personal/historical viewpoint. You have read the personal. Historically, many of the people south of the border lived here within the area now the United States. Before artifical boundaries of nations were established, they went back and forth over these areas all the time. Seeking better places of subsistence, comparable to the modern time.

A large group of illegals who live in the United States now do follow similar patterns, and go back and forth across national borders.

Do I think that they should abide by the law, to the best of their ability, when here? Yes-I am not condoning illegal trafficking in drugs and bad things like that. They should be encouraged to reside here legally, not afraid to obtain that right. I do not think those who are productive members of our society should be deported if they want to remain, and should be allowed to do so.
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chonsigirl;440593 wrote: Yes, I do. If there is no way legally for them to obtain entrance to living in the United States, I do not see it as a major violation of law to be here.



Not a popular view, but it is mine.



It is all right to disagree with me, that is everyone's right.



I think I see it from a personal/historical viewpoint. You have read the personal. Historically, many of the people south of the border lived here within the area now the United States. Before artifical boundaries of nations were established, they went back and forth over these areas all the time. Seeking better places of subsistence, comparable to the modern time.



A large group of illegals who live in the United States now do follow similar patterns, and go back and forth across national borders.



Do I think that they should abide by the law, to the best of their ability, when here? Yes-I am not condoning illegal trafficking in drugs and bad things like that. They should be encouraged to reside here legally, not afraid to obtain that right. I do not think those who are productive members of our society should be deported if they want to remain, and should be allowed to do so.



Would you also be willing to have 10-20 million illegal Muslims, Canadians, Japanese, Russians etc. etc.
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Post by chonsigirl »

I do not find anything wrong with that.

Why were we once considered the melting pot? Is that image no longer viable? Are we going into an isolationist period of reflection as far as borders are concerned? Then along those lines, is it permissible to take the United States presence to other areas of the world?

Many questions, with multiple answers and reasonings behind them.
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Post by Spinner »

chonsigirl;440230 wrote: Obviously, neither do you, with asking people on FG to do your homework.



The Mexican people know how to work, and are respectable members of our society. When others make value judgments on them, it shows a lack respect for human beings in general. To categorize a group of people by the experience of a few, shows a lack of knowledge of people in general.



I will call you out on every further prejudice comment you make, Saffron. I do not like bigotry, such as you have exhibited in the post. Are you saying my family does not know the meaning of work? Say it to my face, girl.





I work 3 jobs, take care of an invalid husband. My children, who are all adults, work 40+ hours each week. My #2 daughter works 2 jobs, goes to college more then full time, and does her own homework. She does not cheat, and ask others to do hers. She stays up late at night to complete her asignments.



I lived 10 years in a barrio-a Mexican ghetto. I saw hard working people, with a great love of family. You descriptions are skewed by your narrow vision.



What is obvious is that no one is giving validity to another's experience...each thinking their personal experience s the ONLY one that counts.



I tried to point out, rather unsuccessfully, that any group of people have good & bad..positive & negative.



And I worked 4 part-time jobs, went to college full-time, raised 3 children, fought an ex for child-support and took care of my elderly grandmother plus I am the legal guardian for my retarded brother. So what's your point?



The FACT (not experience) of the matter is this:



This is America (and this is Texas). English is the language, not Spanish.



There are rules that everyone must abide by to live in a civilized society and respect for the laws of the country is a basic one.



There was a time, when people (immigrants) who came to America, wanted to become American. They wanted to assimilate into this culture, they wanted to learn English, they wanted to contribute to this country and they wanted to live by the laws here.



Coming here today, sneaking across the border like rats through a crack in the wall is not the answer. It is bad for this country because America cannot absorb so many, so fast. Especially when these people have no loyalty to this country, for the most part.



http://www.numbersusa.com/overpopulation/ourlostfuture.html







The recent marches and demonstrations prove my point. Flying the Mexican flag on their cars, over the Federal Post Office, over our schools is unacceptable.



Let's look at what is NOT acceptable by the Mexican government for Americans or any tourist to do. (Tourist have permission to be in the county..something that illegals do not have.)



http://math.ucr.edu/ftm/bajaPages/Legal.html#Section6

Flying an American flag is illegal in Mexico unless it is on a flagstaff at the stern of a cruising yacht that has been legally registered for passage into Mexican waters (a boat permit). Signs, decals, and photographs of foreign flags are not banned. Also, the flying of a Mexican flag is illegal unless written permission is obtained from the office of the Secretería de Gobernación. I see Mexican Flag decals on cars, trucks, apt windows....all over the place in Houston. Mexicans EXPECT to do here what we cannot do there.



http://math.ucr.edu/ftm/bajaPages/Legal.html

There is one area in which a foreigner has an additional responsibility, and that is in the matter of a "visa." With the exception of the border region for up to 72 hours (a few miles into Mexico, the corridor to San Felipe, and the Tijuana/Ensenada/Tecate triangle), any visitor must have a proper and current visa ("Tourist Card"). Click here to view the Tourist Card page. Do I REALLY have state the obvious here? The Mexican government encourages its citizens to break our laws by coming here. P-L-E-A-S-E!

Article 42 of the Mexican constitution forbids "tourists from engaging in any activity not commonly associated with a tourist." Read this somewhat ambiguous statement closely because it empowers Mexican immigration with a vast number of reasons to cite and detain individuals who may be engaged in activities that deviate, even slightly, from those of a pure tourist. Tourists are forbidden to engage in any activity, lucrative or not, that deviates from what a standard tourist would be expected to be doing.

This act is designed to stop people from "assisting" friends or acquaintences build a home, rebuild an engine, install plumbing or electrical, unless the worker possesses a valid Mexican Work Permit. Also, one especially sensitive area is that of foreigners entering Mexico to participate in political activities. Enforcement is spotty, but if a person is cited by immigration officials it can lead to permanent expulsion from Mexico.

Geeezzz...this sounds an awful lot like marching, demonstrating, working, ...Oh..but the illegals DEMAND that they can do these things here!





What really gets my goat is that I see this county being invaded by people with no respect for our culture or our people. Sorta like when the Romans invaded Britain or when the English invaded Scotland.





And quite frankly...it puts a "big burr under my saddle".



And I make this prediction, if the US gov't. doesn't get off it's hind quarters and start protecting this country..the people will...and it won't be pretty.







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Post by Sheryl »

Spinner;440712 wrote:



And I make this prediction, if the US gov't. doesn't get off it's hind quarters and start protecting this country..the people will...and it won't be pretty.








You know I think your right about this.
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Post by Spinner »

Sheryl;440733 wrote: You know I think your right about this.





Yes...and it is unfortunate. The truth is this, the US has signed Treaties with Canada and Mexico and the UN, to create this "North American Union"...they want these hemispheres to be one big happy family. They think they can do with these large countries, what happened with the small independent "countries" ..the 13 original "states". Remember...each state had their own currency and laws. This is one reason they grouped together ..to make commerce easier.



Same thing now. To make commerce easier. The problem is that the original 13 states were close in culture and language..plus they had shared memories of fighting for independence.



There is just TOO much difference between the northern hemisphere and the southern in the way of language, cultural and shared experiences.



So I think they are encouraging a battle because it will reveal who the "trouble makers" are, it will certainly kill off a whole bunch of folks.



Check this out:



US Army Announces Readiness for Total Military Takeover of America



and this: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/concentration.html





We certainly live in interesting times.







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Post by chonsigirl »

Last I looked, English is not the official language of the United States. There is not one designated.

What really gets my goat is that I see this county being invaded by people with no respect for our culture or our people. Sorta like when the Romans invaded Britain or when the English invaded Scotland.



I already stated, it was the Native Americans land first. Who invaded who?

Coming here today, sneaking across the border like rats through a crack in the wall is not the answer.



Inflammatory remark.

The recent marches and demonstrations prove my point. Flying the Mexican flag on their cars, over the Federal Post Office, over our schools is unacceptable.




Personal opinion.

And I make this prediction, if the US gov't. doesn't get off it's hind quarters and start protecting this country..the people will...and it won't be pretty.



Do you see a volatile solution to this problem?
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Post by zinkyusa »

Here in North Carolina we have a program to take citizens to Mexico to see why people are leaving. It's not your vacation type of visit. I know a Deputy Sheriff who just returned from there and you would not believe the 180 he has done with his views on illegals. I don't blame anyone for wanting a better life and some opportunity.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
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Post by Spinner »

And just an after thought....



By the lack of action on the part of the current administration to do anything about the problems concerning illegals ...this nation owes the Dixie Chicks an apology.



Think I'll make that the next topic of my blog-entry!



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Post by zinkyusa »

Spinner;440861 wrote: And just an after thought....



By the lack of action on the part of the current administration to do anything about the problems concerning illegals ...this nation owes the Dixie Chicks an apology.



Think I'll make that the next topic of my blog-entry!



Spinner



The Dixie Chicks can kiss my &^%:mad:
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Post by Spinner »

chonsigirl;440835 wrote: Last I looked, English is not the official language of the United States. There is not one designated.



I already stated, it was the Native Americans land first. Who invaded who?





Inflammatory remark.





Personal opinion.





Do you see a volatile solution to this problem?





You should recall the 10th Amendment, commonly referred to as "States Rights". Each state can set their preference. The de facto language is English (it is the language of commerce, which is why most global business is conducted in English) and it is a shame that we'd have to create another law, after 200+ years to enforce the obvious. But...this is what happens when you bring in a lot of foreigners who do not share your values. A perfect example to prove my early point. Thank you for making it for me.:-6





http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html"There has been at least one interesting contrast to the pro-English efforts. In 1923, Illinois officially declared that English would no longer be the official language of Illinois - but American would be. Many of Illinois' statutes refer to "the American language," (example: 225 ILCS 705/27.01) though the official language of the state is now English (5 ILCS 460/20).

According to U.S. English, the following states have existing official language laws on their books: Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Wyoming. A small handful date back more than a few decades, such as Louisiana (1811) and Nebraska (1920), but most official language statutes were passed since the 1970's."Actually, if you want to go back to the very beginning..we don't know whose it was. After all, every one migrated here from somewhere else. And since I am (documented--have the Roll Number) Cherokee & Creek...I can have my 2 cents.



My comment was not an inflammatory remark but a descriptive one.



How can you possibly call this "personal opinion" when there is evidence from news footage showing demonstrations and citations from the Mexican law?



This was a prediction based on the escalating crisis (health care, traffic, jobs, crime) and the inflammatory actions by groups such as Aztlan.

WARNING: To View this video first lock your guns up and hide the key, and take a zanex because the lies and INFLAMMATORY remarks will cause any American to want to "take matters into their own hands".

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=811






http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/aztlan.html

Mexicans Have Plans for the American Southwest




They vow to take it over








Our southern neighbor is not shy about expressing its intention to conquer the American Southwest, which Mexico regards as territory lost in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildalgo in 1846. Mexican children are taught in school that the United States stole that land, which they call “Aztlan.” .....




How is this winning "Friends and Influencing People"? And you wonder why Americans find the illegals intolerable?







http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27941

The poll found that 58 percent of Mexicans agree with the statement, "The territory of the United States' southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico." Zogby said 28 percent disagreed, while another 14 percent said they weren't sure.

Meanwhile, a similar number – 57 percent – agreed that "Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission," while 35 percent disagreed and 7 percent were unsure.Fully 65 percent of Americans, Zogby said, don't support granting amnesty to illegal immigrants currently in the U.S., as President Bush has advocated, compared to 26 percent who do support it.



Also, 68 percent said they agreed that U.S. troops should be temporarily deployed along the U.S. border "to help the U.S. Border Patrol curb illegal immigration." Twenty-eight percent disagreed, while 3 percent said they weren't sure.

I think my prediction is proved out from the above poll results.



My point is...don't try to paint the illegal aliens as poor innocent victims with clean hands and Americans trying to protect their homeland as the bad guys.



I can't speak for CA, AZ & NM but Texas fought a war and WON...therefore, under the Law of Nations Texas does not belong to Mexico any more than the US belongs to Britain....





(Hey Clancy...Scotland's looking better all the time!:wah: )



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P.S. zinkyusa, George W Bush is not a Texan. He was born in Conn.
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Post by Lulu2 »

I get weary of the argument that "WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS.'' Of course, we're all descended from immigrants, even those of us (like myself) who have native blood. HOWEVER...there've been immigration laws in place for DECADES.

We're now under seige from an illegal invasion by people from other countries who cannot be bothered to abide by immigration laws. These people, by definition of law, are ILLEGALLY IN THE COUNTRY.

We've been all through the negative impact on our society, our environment and our economy. They don't do us any good. I realize THEY find it beneficial, but I submit that it's a VERY "short-sighted, selfish" attitude.

In the long run, illegal immigration has a huge and very negative impact on our country.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by chonsigirl »

You only quote from this one site, which I looked at. It is slanted. You will have to bring in more figures to corroborate your comments. You basis of judgment on the poll results I find invalid.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html

Your site quoted says, “Many people are surprised to learn that the United States has no official language.” The state I live in is not listed. Hooray for them!

In your reply about Aztlan, that is also a very slanted group that does not speak for the majority of the people they claim to represent.

Misrepresentation of the topic.



PS Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed in 1848
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Post by Accountable »

I'm more a small picture guy. There are laws. Follow them. If they are wrong. Change them to right ... then follow them. If it is not within your power to change them - say, because you are on the outside - follow the lawful way to obtain that power ... then change them.
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Post by Spinner »

chonsigirl;440898 wrote: You only quote from this one site, which I looked at. It is slanted. You will have to bring in more figures to corroborate your comments. You basis of judgment on the poll results I find invalid.



http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_lang.html



Your site quoted says, “Many people are surprised to learn that the United States has no official language.” The state I live in is not listed. Hooray for them!



In your reply about Aztlan, that is also a very slanted group that does not speak for the majority of the people they claim to represent.



Misrepresentation of the topic.







PS Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed in 1848





So tell me..what language do you speak? Where did you learn it? Where you born? I just want to know who I am dealing with?



I don't care what you think of the poll results since I can see that you will not accept any information unless it validates your opinion. If you are really interested, you can check polls.com ...which you may or may not accept.



Aztlan is a very slanted but outspoken group. If it were a group demanding Confederate Historical Accuracy, the gov't would have locked them up for hate speech. But it is OK for people who have not taken the Oath of allegiance to this country, and therefore do not have any rights protected under the US Constitution, to claim they have the right to speak out against this country.



I find it amazing, your lack of loyalty to this country and its values. There is no misrepresentation. Just your opinion.



As for the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...I know when it was signed..after the supposed annexation of the Republic of Texas.



I fail to see your point. The Republic had declared it's independence from Mexico, fought a war and won. Texas was an independent country 1836-1845.



----





http://www.barnesreview.org/The__Reconquista_-Mexico_s_Dre/the__reconquista_-mexico_s_dre.html



"America subsequently obtained the Southwest in various ways—mostly by conquest in the Mexican (or Mexican Amer i can) War, partly by purchase (the Gadsden Purchase) and partly by agreement (the annexation of Texas, at the time an independent republic. It should also be mentioned that the bear flag of the Re public of California was raised by American settlers at Sonoma on June 14, 1846.) This prompts the question as to how Spain and then Mexico came to “own” what is now the American Southwest, which, of course, was never under the control of the Aztec nation. .....



Since the United States inherited its claim to the western lands from Britain, the Treaty of Tordesillas is logically a nullity as far as the U.S. government is (or should be) concerned. It should perhaps be noted that U.S. claims to the west really go as far back as colonial days, since many of the British colonial charters purported to grant to the colonies lands in America stretching all the way to the Pacific Ocean. ....



Beginning with Texas in 1845, which be came a sovereign country in 1836, and California, Nevada, Utah and parts of New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and Wyo ming (all of which Mexico ceded to the United States in 1848), American settlers outnumbered Mexicans by at least five to one in all eight states except in Texas, where Americans outnumbered Mexicans 10 to one....



....the United States seized California in 1846 and how the U.S. government ended the Texas-Mexico border dispute. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidal go, which officially ended the war, was signed in February 1848.



According to Muzzey, the annexation of Texas was a perfectly fair transaction. For nine years, since the victory of San Ja cinto in 1836, Texas had been an independent republic, whose military reconquest Mexico had not the slightest chance of effecting. In fact, at the very moment of annexation, the Mexican government, at the suggestion of England, had agreed to recognize the independence of Texas, on condition that the republic should not join itself to the United States. The United States was not taking Mexican territory, then, in annexing Texas...."





http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty199.htm





“In the year 2010-15, the Hispanic-Latino cohort, which includes illegal aliens, will become dominant populations in the states of California, Florida, Illinois, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas,” Flack said. “While 100 hospitals have closed by 2006, 2,000 more will close by 2010, all bankrupt. All schools will be overcrowded, on year-around schedules, and academic success will be less than half of what it was in 2004. Restricted private-proprietary schools and hospitals will appear to take care of the upper-class, with armed-guards at the doors. Murders in all other schools will be commonplace.”



“By 2015-20, the Hispanic-Latino cohort will also dominate the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Mississippi, New York, and perhaps a few more,” Flack said. “The rich and upper-class will be insulated, just as it is in Mexico in 2006.”







Again, the growth-rate for the "illegal-alien cohort" is now 17 percent annually. That rate will increase as the "citizenship-opportunity" word spreads to Mexico and beyond. If nothing changes substantially in the next few years, here are those projected numbers:





As of September 2004, there were 20 million illegals, plus their nine million kids here. (Seven million of those kids are "Instant-citizens.") These are Bear-Stearns numbers.









As of September 2005, there were 23 million illegals, plus their 11 million kids here. (Eight million of those kids are "Instant-citizens.")







As of September 2006, there were 27 million illegals, plus their 13 million kids here. (Nine million of those kids are "Instant-citizens.")







As of September 2007, there will be 32 million illegals, plus their 15 million kids here. (11 million of those kids are "Instant-citizens.")







As of September 2008, there will be 37 million illegals, plus their 17 million kids here. (12 million of those kids are "Instant-citizens.")







As of September 2009, there will be 44 million illegals, plus their 20 million kids here. (14 million of those kids are "Instant-citizens.")







As of September 2010, there will be 51 million illegals, plus their 23 million kids here. (17 million of those kids are "Instant-citizens.")









So...we agree to disagree:-2



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Post by Spinner »

Accountable;440929 wrote: I'm more a small picture guy. There are laws. Follow them. If they are wrong. Change them to right ... then follow them. If it is not within your power to change them - say, because you are on the outside - follow the lawful way to obtain that power ... then change them.





Thanks Accountable.



K.I.S.S.



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Post by RedGlitter »

Lulu2;440897 wrote: I get weary of the argument that "WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS.'' Of course, we're all descended from immigrants, even those of us (like myself) who have native blood. HOWEVER...there've been immigration laws in place for DECADES.



We're now under seige from an illegal invasion by people from other countries who cannot be bothered to abide by immigration laws. These people, by definition of law, are ILLEGALLY IN THE COUNTRY.



We've been all through the negative impact on our society, our environment and our economy. They don't do us any good. I realize THEY find it beneficial, but I submit that it's a VERY "short-sighted, selfish" attitude.



In the long run, illegal immigration has a huge and very negative impact on our country.



Right on, Lulu. :-6



I am disgusted by the things I am reading here. So far the crux as I gather it is this:



Chonsi knows Mexicans (etc) so it's okay for her to speak about what she sees but Saffron is incorrect about what *she* sees

and has no right to speak her mind as she is not Mexican and is politically incorrect. :thinking:





Chonsi, Saffron, I like you both so understand I am not making personal affronts in this post even though I am angry and it's going to come off that way. (Actually that goes for all here at this thread, I have no probs with any of you, just some of your opinions, as you might also feel about me.)

You are both as correct as you are incorrect as I see it. You cancel each other out. You offer two opposite views and both are factual.



I am a "white" girl but I have Mexicans in my family as well as other nationalities. But since we're mainly talking about illegal Mexican aliens I will stick with that. My cousin went to Mexico and married a very nice man. Everyone screamed "GREENCARD!" And maybe that was true, I don't know. I do know however, that he came to the US, learned English taught by his wife, learned American customs, completed school, got a decent, respectable job and raised a family of two. He's courteous, speaks the LANGUAGE OF WHAT IS NOW HIS COUNTRY, and contributes to society.



But he screwed up when he brought his relatives over here illegally. They're still illegal. :mad: I have hence lost respect for him.



I grew up in both California and Arizona and I feel just as qualified as anyone else here to "speak about what I know." And like everyone else here, I will. The casino housekeeping along the river is staffed almost completely by illegal Mexican women. As far as I know, most are hard working. And many are also thieves. They routinely line their pockets with extra food from the dining rooms and they stock up on the hotel toiletries. They make good money so why shouldn't they buy these things as the rest of us do? Is it my fault they have 14 other illegal family members at home and are still cranking out kids as well and can't afford shampoo and potatoes?



I am appalled that someone here thinks illegals (Mexican or otherwise!) should be allowed to come here, make a good life for themselves, take our jobs and not even have the decency to speak the language which is BY DEFAULT in AMERICA, all the while sugarcoating their illegality by saying they work hard. That is unacceptable! How dare you? How about we break a lot more laws and rules because "people work hard" and should be excused for their actions?!

My white farmer grandparents came to California as fruit pickers during the Depression and worked their collective @$$ off to get decent paying jobs to survive on. If they had to work that hard in their own country, then I expect a foreigner to work just as hard and be legal doing it. I have taken care of sick and dying people since I was fourteen years old and still in school. I have a high school diploma (no GED) and two years of college. I am a licensed cosmetologist, I have worked in factories, I have been a hotel maid, a railroad dispatcher, a child care worker, a store manager, a small business owner and for the past seven years I have worked in animal rescue. I am no slacker. I work hard for my money, I contribute to my community and I am continuing my education. Why should someone from another country come here for free, use up resources that *I* can't even access, not pay taxes yet get a considerable return at year's end, raise kids that *I* have to pay for and more often than not, not even speak my damned language?! :mad:



Now as for calling it as one sees it, I am all for that. That is why it is called an OPINION. But I'll tell you what- Saffron's opinion that most illegals are lazy and disrespectful because that's what she sees is no more invalid than Chonsi's opinion that most illegals are hardworking and contributary because that's what she sees. I am guessing it's a STEREOTYPE for me to say that illegal aliens are usurping the resources of my country, but TOTALLY ACCURATE for me to say that illegal aliens are fine upstanding, hardworking human beings! That is ALSO a STEREOTYPE. It's fine to criticize people for their opinions, but be willing to accept criticism of your opinion too. ALL opinions, and that even includes mine. I probably just made a few enemies here sadly, but one thing you can always count on with me is that you'll know where I stand. Thanks for reading.

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