ILLEGAL aliens

Open or closed borders?
ZAP
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Post by ZAP »

Some very good points. Thank you.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

I knoew nobody would pm me. :yh_wait

:p

Deep_Respect wrote: Obviously there are different ways to view this issue as Zapata points out. I'm not overly concerned about this issue because I don't feel as if these people as a whole are taking anything away from me. Most illegal aliens work at jobs that I would never consider taking at a salary that wouldn't interest me.


True, they may not be taking your job, but they are draining your money. Employers save big on unpaid payroll taxes when they use illegal (criminal) aliens, and those criminal aliens don't pay income taxes. These unpaid taxes decrease the pool that the corporations you are concerned about are draining through corporate welfare. Therefore, you're paying a higher percentage than you would if the employees were legal.



Most of the criminals don't pay social security taxes, which endangers your retirement subsidy you've worked years to qualify for. Social security would still be in danger, because politicians can't keep their hands off it, but it would certainly last longer if all employees were legal and paid into it as required.



A huge number of these criminals work in the construction industry. Employers (also criminals btw) can pay these guys standard wages and still reap huge profits from breaking the law. That displaces skilled workers who would otherwise be paying income taxes rather than collecting unemployment. Also, there is no way to know if these criminals are actually qualified or skilled enough to do the work they're hired to do. The house you buy with your hard-earned, heavily taxed dollar, may fall down around your ears, because of these criminals you're not overly concerned about.



Deep_Respect wrote: While I might be concerned if a large influx of criminals entered the country I'm more concerned about government corruption and corporate scandals like the savings and loan scandals of the 90's, Enron and Worldcom which the taxpayers the paid for and eminent domain abuse which is the latest monster in our midst.


We're in full agreement here.
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

" I don't feel as if these people as a whole are taking anything away from me. Most illegal aliens work at jobs that I would never consider taking at a salary that wouldn't interest me."

Have you considered that these criminals are suppressing wages in jobs which fill a wide range of employment? Perhaps your friends and neighbors might be interested in jobs other than field labor? Construction, transportation, food services and many more are fields in which illegals are working.

Have you considered the degredation of resources brought on by massive waves of overpopulation? Southern California parks and roads are suffering from unplanned use due to millions of the undocumented. We're not the only ones.

Have you considered the impact on criminal activity and overwhelmed police services trying to deal with the drugs and gang wars these people have brought with them?

"While I might be concerned if a large influx of criminals entered the country I'm more concerned about government corruption and corporate scandals .."

Have you considered that a large influx of criminals HAS entered and CONTINUES to enter the country every day? And that government and corporate inability/lack of interest in dealing with them IS a scandal?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Deep_Respect
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Accountable wrote: I knoew nobody would pm me. :yh_wait

:p

True, they may not be taking your job, but they are draining your money. Employers save big on unpaid payroll taxes when they use illegal (criminal) aliens, and those criminal aliens don't pay income taxes. These unpaid taxes decrease the pool that the corporations you are concerned about are draining through corporate welfare. Therefore, you're paying a higher percentage than you would if the employees were legal.



Most of the criminals don't pay social security taxes, which endangers your retirement subsidy you've worked years to qualify for. Social security would still be in danger, because politicians can't keep their hands off it, but it would certainly last longer if all employees were legal and paid into it as required.



A huge number of these criminals work in the construction industry. Employers (also criminals btw) can pay these guys standard wages and still reap huge profits from breaking the law. That displaces skilled workers who would otherwise be paying income taxes rather than collecting unemployment. Also, there is no way to know if these criminals are actually qualified or skilled enough to do the work they're hired to do. The house you buy with your hard-earned, heavily taxed dollar, may fall down around your ears, because of these criminals you're not overly concerned about.






You raise very valid points but also consider that the tax system in the US is designed to benefit investors not employees and it has always been that way. It is the tool that the government uses to prevent the middle class from obtaining wealth. That is why we still have the alternative minimum tax which is not adjusted for inflation. We also have a tax structure that doesn't compensate for the cost of living in the more expensive areas of the country. Therefore those living in the more expensive regions who generally are paid higher wages due to the higher costs of living also pay higher taxes. The bottom line is if you really want to succeed you have to become an investor to benefit from the tax breaks and loopholes. The more savvy you are as an investor the more you stand to gain from the system.

As a person who hopes for the best but plans for the worse I'm not expecting social security to be around when I retire. I'm therefore actively planning for my retirement by investing. If SS is there when I retire, it's the icing on the cake.

As far as poor construction practices in building homes I blame the homebuilder for that. If an unscrupulous homebuilder decides to cut corners I doubt that he's going to hire skilled workers regardless of whether he can hire illegal aliens or not. There are unskilled, unemployed American citizens whom he could still hire for less that what a skilled worker would demand.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Deep_Respect wrote: You raise very valid points but also consider that the tax system in the US is designed to benefit investors not employees and it has always been that way. It is the tool that the government uses to prevent the middle class from obtaining wealth. That is why we still have the alternative minimum tax which is not adjusted for inflation. We also have a tax structure that doesn't compensate for the cost of living in the more expensive areas of the country. Therefore those living in the more expensive regions who generally are paid higher wages due to the higher costs of living also pay higher taxes. The bottom line is if you really want to succeed you have to become an investor to benefit from the tax breaks and loopholes. The more savvy you are as an investor the more you stand to gain from the system.
'kay. I don't disagree, but it has zero to do with illegal aliens.



Deep_Respect wrote: As a person who hopes for the best but plans for the worse I'm not expecting social security to be around when I retire. I'm therefore actively planning for my retirement by investing. If SS is there when I retire, it's the icing on the cake.
Good for you! Too bad everyone can seem to understand that concept. But I was making a point about how it - and you - are being negatively impacted by the criminal aliens.



Deep_Respect wrote: As far as poor construction practices in building homes I blame the homebuilder for that. If an unscrupulous homebuilder decides to cut corners I doubt that he's going to hire skilled workers regardless of whether he can hire illegal aliens or not. There are unskilled, unemployed American citizens whom he could still hire for less that what a skilled worker would demand.
I'm afraid you missed my point. True, unethical businessmen are always going to find ways to cut corners, each of which has a negative impact on you, either in terms of direct quality issues or indirectly through higher insurance rates. My point was that criminal aliens are involved in the ripoff, thus have a negative impact on you, directly and indirectly.
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

Finally, Deep Respect, to answer this statement: " I'm not overly concerned about this issue because I don't feel as if these people as a whole are taking anything away from me."

Sometimes we get involved with things because we know they're the right thing to do for our country....or our state....or even our town. I'd hate to think that none of my male ancestors had argued for womens' suffrage, just because it didn't "take anything away" from them. And I'd hate to think that nobody stood up to defend Hawaii from Japanese attacks for the same reason.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: Finally, Deep Respect, to answer this statement: " I'm not overly concerned about this issue because I don't feel as if these people as a whole are taking anything away from me."



Sometimes we get involved with things because we know they're the right thing to do for our country....or our state....or even our town. I'd hate to think that none of my male ancestors had argued for womens' suffrage, just because it didn't "take anything away" from them. And I'd hate to think that nobody stood up to defend Hawaii from Japanese attacks for the same reason.
To be fair, I don't have illegal aliens threatening to withhold my favorite meal (an other favorites :sneaky: ) unless I give them what they want. :D
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

Perhaps, although the recent "work-stoppage/protest for their 'rights to be here' " they tried to pull in the Los Angeles area could theoretically have disrupted food supplies.

It's gratifying to see growing protest against the government's ineptitude in keeping our borders safe!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

From my email today:

My wife, Rosemary, wrote a wonderful letter to the editor of the OC Register which, of course, was not printed. So, I decided to "print" it myself by sending it out on the Internet. Pass it along if you feel so inclined.

Dave LaBonte

.....

Written in response to a series of letters to the editor in the Orange County Register:

Dear Editor:

So many letter writers have based their arguments on how this country is made up of immigrants. Ernie Lujan for one, suggests we should tear down the Statute of Liberty because the people now in question aren't being treated the same as those who passed through Ellis Island and other ports of entry. Maybe we should turn to our history books and point out to people like Mr. Lujan why today's American is not willing to accept this new kind of immigrant any longer. Back in 1900 when there was a rush from all areas of Europe to come to the United States, people had to get off a ship and stand in a long line in New York and be documented. Some would even get down on their hands and knees and kiss the ground. They made a pledge to uphold the laws and support their new country in good and bad times. They made learning English a primary rule in their new American households and some even changed their names to blend in with their new home.

They had waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture. Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them. All they had were the skills and craftsmanship they had brought with them to trade for a future of prosperity.

Most of their children came of age when World War II broke out. My father fought along side men whose parents had come straight over from Germany, Italy, France and Japan. None of these 1st generation Americans ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Americans fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan. They were defending the United States of America as one people. When we liberated France, no one in those villages were looking for the French-American or the German American or the Irish- American. The people of France saw only Americans. And we carried one flag that represented one country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country's flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl. And here we are in 2006 with a new kind of immigrant who wants the same rights and privileges.

Only they want to achieve it by playing with a different set of rules, one that includes the entitlement card and a guarantee of being faithful to their mother country. I'm sorry, that's not what being an American is all about. I believe that the immigrants who landed on Ellis Island in the early 1900s deserve better than that for all the toil, hard work and sacrifice in raising future generations to create a land that has become a beacon for those legally searching for a better life. I think they would be appalled that they are being used as an example by those waving foreign country flags. And for that suggestion about taking down the Statute of Liberty, it happens to mean a lot to the citizens who are voting on the immigration bill. I wouldn't start talking about dismantling the United States just yet.

(signed)

--Rosemary LaBonte
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
rainbowsmiles
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Post by rainbowsmiles »

I was just reading through this thread and it got a little difficult cause my eyes get crossed when I stare at the screen that long so I apologize for not reading it in its entirety but...

At heart, I agree with what you had to say chonsigirl. But I also feel the law is the law and if it is illegal to be in the country, then it is illegal. The laws we have in place should be enforced and the illegal immigrants should have to pay the price for breaking the law. Just the same as we do when we enter Mexico illegally. I have had the luxury of living in Mexico for a year while studying and I did see American citizens that I came to know get deported because they didn't have the proper papers - so turn-abouts-fair-play here I believe.

I just wanted to comment on two things I read posted here:

Because - illegals don't pay taxes and they don't pay into Social Security

Interestingly, Mexico won't take immigrants unless they are educated. That seems hypocritical to me.



Because of my ability to speak fluent spanish, I have come to know many Mexicans in my state (plus, my city is inhabited by quite a few - some of which are not legal). They do pay taxes. Maybe not all of them, but the few I know do pay taxes (a fact that is not lost on our government since I heard wolf blitzer speak of it on CNN). They also pay into social security. Maybe not all of them, but yes, some of them do.

And... Mexico does take immigrants that only have a basic education. My cousin moved to Mexico 20 years ago and decided to stay there permanently nearly 10 years ago. She works time-share. Not exactly a top notch education in my eyes. :wah:
Issie
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Post by Issie »

buttercup wrote: its up to us to vote in a party that will make policies that we agree with regarding this matter pants, obviously the majority of people here voted in the labour party agree with what they do

immigrants are not the only people who abuse the benefits system



People did vote in the Labour Party, based on their manifesto.

But, you should know the old saying...never trust a politician....they change their agenda once in power.

True, Immigrants are not the only ones abusing the system, but they are the majority of the people who do....in the UK.

What hacks me off the most...is they come, they don`t integrate, speak or even try to speak English, they drain the system and particularly the NHS.....they know which benefits to claim and which department to attend to plead their case.

We in the UK cannot take anymore immigrants, whether they be asylum seekers, migrant workers, immigrants or illegals....Fact and period.

We are a small Island and we are "full up" beyond bursting point, our own social and welfare structure is now at breaking point.

When the government say that anyone on the poverty line needs £114.00 per week to live on, and then says, the state pension for the people who have worked and paid into the system all their lives is £84.00 per week ....then something is radically wrong.

The Human Rights bill and waving the racist card does not work on me....

We have illegals who use the human rights act and state that they are in fear of their lives, they then promote themselves to asylum status......and then the whole legal process is put into place, with some smart human rights lawyer fighting their cause in the courts...whilst my taxes are paying for the whole thing....and in the meantime, the queue for the dentist, hospital and social issues gets longer and longer.
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

Issie, I'm shaking your hand on the "human rights/racist card don't work on me," business! ("HIGH FIVES" ISSIE!)

From our news today:

Employers in three states targeted by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents as part of an enhanced effort to combat illegal-alien employment schemes have been arrested for, or pleaded guilty to, charges of harboring illegal aliens.



ICE spokesman Dean Boyd said two limited-liability corporations in Kentucky pleaded guilty Thursday to criminal charges of harboring illegal aliens and money laundering in an illegal employment scheme at hotels. They agreed to pay $1.5 million cash in lieu of forfeiture and create internal compliance programs.

Sentencing in the case is scheduled for October.

In Ohio, ICE agents arrested the owner of a restaurant on felony charges of harboring illegal aliens after 10 of his illegal workers were apprehended, Mr. Boyd said. Chinese citizen Jiang Fei Jiang, 36, who owns and operates Bee's Buffet in Fairfield, was arrested Thursday.

In Arkansas on Tuesday, ICE agents arrested the owner of a construction business on felony charges and apprehended 27 of his illegal workers, ICE said. Alejandro Arevalo, the manager of Arevalo Framing, was charged with harboring illegal aliens and re-entry after deportation.



"ICE is taking an increasingly tough stance against egregious corporate violators that knowingly employ illegal aliens. Bringing criminal charges against these unscrupulous employers and targeting their ill-gotten gains is a tactic we are adopting nationwide," said Homeland Security Assistant Secretary Julie L. Myers, who heads ICE.



Mr. Boyd said that during fiscal 2006, ICE has arrested 445 persons on criminal charges in work-site investigations and apprehended another 2,700 of their illegal workers on immigration violations. During fiscal 2005, he said, ICE arrested 176 persons on criminal charges and another 1,116 illegal-alien workers.

++++++++++ I believe the increase reflects the rapidly growing/publicly expressed dissatisfaction of the people here. I hope so, anyway.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Issie
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Post by Issie »

Lulu

I don`t know what it is like in the USA, but, here in the UK we are soooo politically correct, that anyone who dares to object to the immigrants, then they are called a racist.

I`m no racist, and I`m now at the age where I couldn`t give a **** what people call me.....so, bring it on I say, and if stating the truth means being called a racist, then I aint gonna lose no sleep over it....so be it.!

End of!

Regards honey.
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Issie wrote: Lulu

I don`t know what it is like in the USA, but, here in the UK we are soooo politically correct, that anyone who dares to object to the immigrants, then they are called a racist.



I`m no racist, and I`m now at the age where I couldn`t give a **** what people call me.....so, bring it on I say, and if stating the truth means being called a racist, then I aint gonna lose no sleep over it....so be it.!

End of!



Regards honey.

It's similar here. Nobody that knows me will call me a bigot (except for taking the **** ;) ). My views, apparently like yours, have nothing to do with the color of the criminals, but their actions. But there are those here in the States that think it racist or at least incompassionate to be against illegal immigration.
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

That "racist card" is just soooooo easy to play, isn't it?

Don't like people defiantly sneaking into this country? YOU MUST BE A RACIST!

Don't like supporting generations of people who make a career of public assistance? YOU MUST BE A RACIST!

Don't like seeing signs you can't even read posted in block after block of your community? WELL! YOU MUST BE A RACIST!

And you've really no way to disprove it or even deny it when the P.C. police are ready to smear you!

So, Issie, like you, I just say F@#* 'em! I know who I am and what my motivations are.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Is this the only issue (so far) that I line up with Lulu & Issie? :D
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

How do you feel about icy cold Margaritas on a hot summer day? Sleeping late on a rainy Saturday? Puppies? Kittens?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Accountable
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: How do you feel about icy cold Margaritas on a hot summer day? Sleeping late on a rainy Saturday? Puppies? Kittens?

AAAaaaahhhhh!! :cool:



I love multifaceted friends.
Deep_Respect
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Lulu2 wrote: " I don't feel as if these people as a whole are taking anything away from me. Most illegal aliens work at jobs that I would never consider taking at a salary that wouldn't interest me."

Have you considered that these criminals are suppressing wages in jobs which fill a wide range of employment? Perhaps your friends and neighbors might be interested in jobs other than field labor? Construction, transportation, food services and many more are fields in which illegals are working.

Have you considered the degredation of resources brought on by massive waves of overpopulation? Southern California parks and roads are suffering from unplanned use due to millions of the undocumented. We're not the only ones.

Have you considered the impact on criminal activity and overwhelmed police services trying to deal with the drugs and gang wars these people have brought with them?

"While I might be concerned if a large influx of criminals entered the country I'm more concerned about government corruption and corporate scandals .."

Have you considered that a large influx of criminals HAS entered and CONTINUES to enter the country every day? And that government and corporate inability/lack of interest in dealing with them IS a scandal?




Have you considered that these criminals are suppressing wages in jobs which fill a wide range of employment? Perhaps your friends and neighbors might be interested in jobs other than field labor? Construction, transportation, food services and many more are fields in which illegals are working.

Most of my friends and neighbors are not particularly interested in these jobs either. There are no field labor jobs here in NYC but there are plenty of construction jobs and most I see are not filled by immigrants. Most immigrants in transportation drive taxi cabs which here is the most dangerous job second to law enforcement as it common for drivers to be shot and killed after being robbed. No one else will take the food services jobs because the pay is horrible.

Have you considered the degredation of resources brought on by massive waves of overpopulation? Southern California parks and roads are suffering from unplanned use due to millions of the undocumented. We're not the only ones.

I'm not sure about the degradation of resources. The more afluent areas get the best resources while the poorer areas are passed over.

Have you considered the impact on criminal activity and overwhelmed police services trying to deal with the drugs and gang wars these people have brought with them?

Most the immigrants here are hard working people. The drug trafficking and gang wars here are problems brought on by those who were born here. Now I also notice that the police response to crime greatly varies based upon the neighborhood demographics.

Have you considered that a large influx of criminals HAS entered and CONTINUES to enter the country every day? And that government and corporate inability/lack of interest in dealing with them IS a scandal?

Yes. But blame the government. Most of these immigrants are only trying to better their lives. If you were in their situation you might be doing the same thing too. I don't get upset when I see poor people struggling to better their lives but nothing makes me more upset than seeing greedy wealthy people prospering at the expense of the hard working poor (If you depend on a job as your sole means financial support then you are poor).
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

I see that the idea of illegality (as in CRIMINAL ACTIVITY) doesn't resonate with you, D'R.

And I see that you don't understand how illegals and the people who employ them create/further the suppression of wages, either.

I've NO IDEA what you mean about this: (me) "Have you considered the degredation of resources brought on by massive waves of overpopulation? Southern California parks and roads are suffering from unplanned use due to millions of the undocumented. We're not the only ones."

(you) "I'm not sure about the degradation of resources. The more afluent areas get the best resources while the poorer areas are passed over. "

It appears you don't live in an area overwhelmed with millions of people who haven't paid into your system but who freely take from it.

Finally you say "But blame the government."

Well, of course I blame the federal government for not enforcing our border controls. AND I blame the criminals who are here and who plan every day to come here.

You say that if my family were hungry, I might do the same thing. Oh, please...stop glamorizing these people! Do you know how much they pay coyotes to bring them across the border?

Do you glamorize American criminals? Gee....you know...I don't have as much money for my family as I'd like...I think I'll just break into YOUR house and take your food and use your resources. After all...I'm just looking for more opportunity!

When did it become acceptable for citizens of other countries to break federal laws because they're poor?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Adam Zapple
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Post by Adam Zapple »

What are you doing up?:Isn't it past your bedtime?:yh_tired It is mine..:yh_sleep
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Lulu2
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Post by Lulu2 »

Too hot to work tomorrow and had a nap in the 110 degree heat today!

You?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Lulu2 wrote: I see that the idea of illegality (as in CRIMINAL ACTIVITY) doesn't resonate with you, D'R.

And I see that you don't understand how illegals and the people who employ them create/further the suppression of wages, either.

I've NO IDEA what you mean about this: (me) "Have you considered the degredation of resources brought on by massive waves of overpopulation? Southern California parks and roads are suffering from unplanned use due to millions of the undocumented. We're not the only ones."

(you) "I'm not sure about the degradation of resources. The more afluent areas get the best resources while the poorer areas are passed over. "

It appears you don't live in an area overwhelmed with millions of people who haven't paid into your system but who freely take from it.

Finally you say "But blame the government."

Well, of course I blame the federal government for not enforcing our border controls. AND I blame the criminals who are here and who plan every day to come here.

You say that if my family were hungry, I might do the same thing. Oh, please...stop glamorizing these people! Do you know how much they pay coyotes to bring them across the border?

Do you glamorize American criminals? Gee....you know...I don't have as much money for my family as I'd like...I think I'll just break into YOUR house and take your food and use your resources. After all...I'm just looking for more opportunity!

When did it become acceptable for citizens of other countries to break federal laws because they're poor?



Do I glamorize American criminals? No. The entertainment media with its mafia movies and glorification of ghetto violence glamorizes American criminals. These people kill our children and terrorize our neighborhoods and they are the ones who sell their poison our children all while the police stand by and let it happen. I pointed out that most criminal activity is perpetrated by citizens of this country. How is that glamorizing American criminals?

I am fortunate enough to live in a gentrified section of Brooklyn NY. There is no lack of resources here. I have seen however immigrants cleaning the sidewalks in front of businesses and cleaning graffiti off of public works so in a sense they are part of that resource. Now I have seen hard working people being booted from their homes by the government under eminent domain to make way for wealthy developers to build overly expensive luxury housing. And I add that these developers are given this land at deep discount and often with hugh tax breaks.

Is immigration the cause of wage suppression? Frankly I don't know how much is caused by immigration verses overseas outsourcing. I do know that alot of jobs in information technologies, customer service, telemarketing and other fields that most likely would not have gone to immigrants have gone to other countries via outsourcing. Then one also has to consider the manufacturing jobs that were moved overseas when American companies were looking to take advantage of cheap labor.

I predict that in the future most Americans will have to establish a business to sustain the lifestyle that they are accustomed to today because having a job will not be enough. Ironic as it may sound many of their customers may be the very immigrants that you all are complaining about.
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Adam Zapple
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Post by Adam Zapple »

Lulu2 wrote: Too hot to work tomorrow and had a nap in the 110 degree heat today!

You?



Working. ...And I forgot about Pacific Time. You're not up as late as I thought.:-2
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Post by Accountable »

Deep_Respect wrote: I am fortunate enough to live in a gentrified section of Brooklyn NY. There is no lack of resources here. I have seen however immigrants cleaning the sidewalks in front of businesses and cleaning graffiti off of public works so in a sense they are part of that resource.

These are immigrants you speak of, not illegal aliens. You don't see a difference?
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Post by Accountable »

Deep_Respect wrote: Have you considered that these criminals are suppressing wages in jobs which fill a wide range of employment? Perhaps your friends and neighbors might be interested in jobs other than field labor? Construction, transportation, food services and many more are fields in which illegals are working.



Most of my friends and neighbors are not particularly interested in these jobs either. There are no field labor jobs here in NYC but there are plenty of construction jobs and most I see are not filled by immigrants. Most immigrants in transportation drive taxi cabs which here is the most dangerous job second to law enforcement as it common for drivers to be shot and killed after being robbed. No one else will take the food services jobs because the pay is horrible.


Ever consider why the pay is horrible? Perhaps it's because there's a ready source of criminal aliens willing to take the job at low wages.



Instead of poo pooing the issue, why not work to relax the red tape those that are willing to follow our laws have to go through?



Has it occurred to you that so long as it's possible for millions of criminal aliens to cross our borders for work, it's just as possible for those wishing to do us harm to do the same thing?
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Post by Lulu2 »

"Has it occurred to you that so long as it's possible for millions of criminal aliens to cross our borders for work, it's just as possible for those wishing to do us harm to do the same thing?"

AGREE! AGREE!

And, DeepRespect, I'll ask that you review your post about how illegals are "only trying to better their lives."

THAT, my friend, is "glamorizing" criminals. There are wayyyy too many stories about these poor, suffering people who cross the desert and die, etc, etc, etc. How many tugs can one's heartstrings bear before one asks...."Hey...who forces these people to come? Who forces them to hand over significant money to the coyotes? Whose government should be responsible for them?"
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Lulu2 »

From my email today...another perspective:

CHEAP LABOR



Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?



Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage



Consumers don't want expensive produce



Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs but the bottom line is cheap labor.

The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie ~ there is no such thing as "cheap labor."



Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children.



He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour.



At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at

the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned

income credit" of up to $3,200 free.



He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent



He qualifies for food stamps



He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care



His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school



He requires bilingual teachers and books



He qualifies for relief from high energy bills



If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for

SSI.



Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare.



All of this is at that taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.



Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed

material.



He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.



Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour Left after paying their bills and his.



The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.



Cheap labor?



YEAH RIGHT!



Wake up people!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Deep_Respect »

Lulu2 wrote: From my email today...another perspective:

CHEAP LABOR



Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?



Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage



Consumers don't want expensive produce



Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs but the bottom line is cheap labor.

The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie ~ there is no such thing as "cheap labor."



Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children.



He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/hour.



At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at

the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an "earned

income credit" of up to $3,200 free.



He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent



He qualifies for food stamps



He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care



His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school



He requires bilingual teachers and books



He qualifies for relief from high energy bills



If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for

SSI.



Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare.



All of this is at that taxpayer's expense.

He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.



Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed

material.



He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.



Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour Left after paying their bills and his.



The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.



Cheap labor?



YEAH RIGHT!



Wake up people!



Its cheap labor for the businesses. The other things you mention are expenses passed on to the so called middle class Americans to keep them from gaining wealth. This is how the government caps the middle class. Those whose sole source of income is their job get hit the worse because they have fewer tax breaks and if their income is high enough they get to the alternative minimum tax. Those middle class American living in cities with high real estate prices and can't afford homes get hit hard too. This is the way the government works. If it wasn't immigration it would be something else that they would be paying taxes for. You see this as a problem because you are on the short end of the stick. Those in power who are not in your shoes don't see this as a problem. There are American citizens who are generating rental income from section 8 housing and believe me as long as they are getting paid they don't give damn whether they are other Americans or immigrants.
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Post by Lulu2 »

Exactly. I agree with you. I posted this for those who continue to believe that these people are "necessary."

They're NOT "necessary"....they do these jobs because they CAN and because the government, supporting big business, makes it possible for them to come here.

Then, the media prints all these HEART-RENDING tales of poor so & so, who struggles to get here, crossing the heat-struck desert, etc, etc, etc.--all in the name of free social services and money to send home.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Accountable »

And I just ask for a raise. Dammit! I shoulda asked for a cut! :-5
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Post by Lulu2 »

We're all "family" here, right? So I can confess something and you won't hurl tomatoes at me?

Pat Buchanan is interviewed in this week's "TIME" and....(gulp) I found myself agreeing with him on this point:

(Question: Is the U.S. in a state of emergency?) "If we do not get control of our borders and stop this greatest invasion in history, I see the dissolution of the U.S. and the loss of the American Southwest--culturally and linguistically, not politically--to Mexico. It could become a part of Mexico in the way that Kosovo is now a part of Albania.

(Question: You liken the immigrant wave to the Visigoths who sacked Rome. Is that fair?) I'm predicting that America will no longer be one nation but more like the Roman Empire--a conglomerate of races and cultures held together by a regime. The country I grew up in was culturally united, even if it was racially divided....We were one nationality. We're ceasing to be that when you have hundreds of thousands of people who want to retain their own culture, their own language, their own loyalty."

++++++++++++ To further lift my eyebrows, it seems Mr. Buchanan was given an award last year by PETA!

:-3 :-3 :-3
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Accountable »

I saw a little of that. Didn't he say Bush was committing cultural treason?
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Post by Lulu2 »

Not in this piece. he says (based on policy re: the middle east) "The President is widely reviled."

Well, no $#*&!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Lulu2 »

This interesting letter comes from my local paper. It talks about incidents in Maywood, which is part of the greater L.A. area. Interesting....

Something's wrong with immigration protests

THE city of Maywood - a 1.2-square-mile town with an official population of just over 28,000 about eight miles south of downtown Los Angeles - is a pocket for illegal immigrants, lauded by immigrant advocates and decried by detractors. In this 96 percent Hispanic town, signs advising pedestrians to use crosswalks are printed in Spanish and English, and many storefronts' signs are in Spanish as well. The last census says 55 percent of residents are foreign-born, and 92 percent speak a language other than English at home.

Earlier this year, the Maywood City Council passed a resolution opposing the Sensenbrenner immigration bill after it passed in the House, and the town was designated the first "sanctuary city" in the state. The city also nixed police checkpoints so as not to net illegal immigrants without driver's licenses, and disbanded its traffic division for the same reason.

On Saturday, Save Our State showed up to protest that policy in front of Maywood City Hall, numbering several dozen with "Don't tread on me" and American flags. "Not anti-Hispanic, anti-illegal alien," read one sign; "Maywood is part of the U.S. and its elected officials need to act accordingly," read another. One man held a small sign that read "traitors," and the group was fronted by a banner championing Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo for president. ("Tancredo? Who's that?" a confused counter-demonstrator asked me.)

Police in riot gear manned a buffer zone on blocked-off Slauson Avenue, surrounding the anti-illegal-immigration demonstrators who were being faced down by a few hundred counter-protesters and neighboring residents who pulled out Mexican flags and joined the event. I had gotten wind of a socialist organization calling people out for the demonstration, hence showed up to find the counter-protest to be an eclectic mix of white guys in Che T-shirts and Latinos - wearing shirts ordering people to not call them Latino or Hispanic (too European), but Mexican - denouncing white people.

And if immigration proponents have been trying to pass off reconquista claims - the belief that immigrants want to take back "Aztlan" - as paranoid, these protesters weren't helping. One sign proclaimed "Stolen continent" - yet displayed two continents, North and South America. "White racists this is our continent" read one sign. Another said, "We will never live in peace until we get the European squatters off our lands."

I squatted in the middle of the counter-protesters for a couple of hours, reading their literature, listening to them talk, trotting next to protesters trying to circumvent police lines and confronting a fleet of motorcycle cops on the next side street over.

And if what I witnessed is what the immigration debate has come down to, it's nothing less than vicious and hate-filled. This is where intelligent discourse flies out the window, and people start drawing territorial lines within communities.

A couple of times, unwelcome people came into the counter-protesting crowd to take photos or video, and were quickly surrounded by an angry crowd and pelted with water bottles and debris. Shouts of "you little white b-" were directed at a blond woman; a man yelled "Get out of here, this is our town" through a bullhorn to others.

Some wearing lucha libre masks and some with bandannas obscuring their faces, counter-protesters tried to get close to the SOS demonstrators by cutting down side streets leading to Slauson, and were angry when the cops were already there. Others manned the front lines with signs depicting Arnold Schwarzenegger as a Nazi, chanting "Minutemen! Resist! They're the real terrorists."

Toward the end of the counter-demonstration, those protesters raised the Mexican flag on the pole in front of the U.S. Post Office. Don Silva of SOS said one woman with his group was assaulted while trying to move through the opposition crowd, and some of their cars had tires slashed and were vandalized.

Maywood, regardless of its demographics, is still within the United States of America, and still falls under the laws of this country. Lobby against those laws if you feel they're unfair; that's the beauty of our system.

But when you have virulent protests that include a pre-teen boy yelling "f- that white b-" at a passing fair-skinned woman - me - something is seriously wrong. Especially when it comes from the side holding a banner that proclaimed "Say NO to racism."
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Accountable »

Cryin' shame. We need to seal the borders to catch terrorists. The Mexican invasion is secondary (though serious), but keeps distracting from the real danger.
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Post by Felinessa »

First of all, I'd like to make it clear that I don't endorse illegal immigration. I myself am working on a very legal immigration file because I believe in upholding the law and sleeping undisturbed at night.

But allow me to play the devil's advocate here:

1. My student visa allows me to work on-campus, which for grad students means teaching (i.e. a decent per hour rate). Every paycheque, I get a good chunk deducted for income tax, unemployment insurance, pension plan, etc., and when I file my taxes I get to pitch in for the Ontario health plan. Now I believe very strongly in social services and in all of us pooling our resources to maintain a civilized standard of living.

But this is the catch: because I'm a temporary resident, I don't qualify for the provincial health plan, or for unemployment insurance, pension plan, and any such perks. I have to pay almost $700/year for limited health insurance. Thus, my taxes, along with the taxes of others like me, pay for unemployed Canadians' welfare, free healthcare, minimal rent, and the such.

How is this any more fair than everyone else's taxes covering benefits for illegals? It's probably a balancing act, since I don't think Canada has too many illegal aliens (and the legal immigrants are pretty well selected through the list of approved occupations, which ensures that the majority of immigrants have a post-secondary education, and through language requirements, medical screening, etc). As a matter of fact, there are probably far more unemployed Canadians than illegal aliens out there.

Which brings me to my second point.

2. How are homegrown lazy bums any better than the imported ones? I understand that anyone may be unexpectedly struck with a short bout of unemployment, which is why I support the concept of unemployment insurance and welfare. But the truth is that there are many jobs out there, which anyone can see advertised. Considering the availability of OSAP, adult education programs, career counselling, temp agencies, etc, anyone who is completely unable to find a job is, in my humble opinion, unwilling to find one.

Perhaps if more people took their cue from the legal immigrants, some of whom are doctors, engineers, or professors, yet are driving cabs until they pass the necessary licensing exams, there would be less pressure on the social support systems. And, implicitly, less pressure on the taxpayers.

Now let's shift gears, because Canada is overall pretty willing to work with newcomers and ensure their integration. This might be a result of the rational immigration policy, which is both friendly and selective at the same time. So far, from what I've seen, people who have the right qualifications don't have trouble immigrating. This isn't always the case in other parts of the world.

3. Exploitation. It is easy to demonize the illegals, and I will concede that they are committing a crime by overstaying their visas or entering the country illegally. While they should bear the responsibility for their acts, as some have pointed out they are not the only ones responsible. The main other culprits are those who are willing to employ them, at ridiculous wages, and often in inhumane conditions.

Illegals don't always enter the country with the intention of being illegals. Many are trafficked or lured by the promise of a better life under legal conditions. I understand people in LA have been angered by the Mexican protests, but, at the same time, how do they dare be angered when they know full well that there countless sweatshops operating in their city, sweatshops which make their nice clothes and shoes affordable? What about the homeowners employing builders or household help, also knowing full well that illegal employees may be overworked, underpaid, or mistreated because they have little legal recourse? The ones you saw in the streets are the vocal ones: for every one of them, there are others labouring in silence, knowing that they can't complain or ask for more humane conditions because "La Migra" is permanently dangled over their heads by their employers. And what about the law-abiding, tax-paying citizens who visit the brothels populated by underage girls trafficked from Central America? Could these brothels exist in the absence of demand?

Aren't these people criminals? Aren't they just as criminal as the illegals? I'd say even more so, because they are not only breaching immigration and employment laws, but also profiting from the exploitation of other human beings. In other words, they trespass against both the state and the illegals (but since we are used to considering illegals as somehow subhuman, most of us don't worry that they might have rights too: maybe not citizenship rights, but human rights nevertheless). And don't think that it's just the johns, pimps, or sweatshop owners who are guilty: every one of us, when buying a product manufactured in a sweatshop, is automatically an accomplice - we are cheating the state and fellow citizens (although indirectly) and we are contributing to the exploitation of other human beings.

So what's there to be done?

If I ruled the world and wanted to get illegal immigration under control, I'd raid the sweatshops, close the brothels, and impose exceedingly harsh penalties on those employing illegals. Then I would give an ultimatum to every homegrown lazy bum: either find a job on your own within a specified amount of time, or take your turn in the aforementioned sweatshops (at minimum wage, of course). This way, they'd do something in exchange for the benefits they receive anyway. Who's going to fund this? Why, your taxpayer money, of course. But maybe many of you will sleep better at night knowing that the illegals are being booted and your unemployed fellow citizens are now finding jobs (cleaning sh*t and working 16-hour days). Oh yes, and everyone refusing a sweatshop job would be automatically booted to Mexico as well :wah: (if you threaten with some nukes, they might relax their uppity immigration policy :wah: ).

All right, so this is pretty unrealistic. But what we can do, instead of whining, is at least a little bit of research on the products we buy. There is a league of companies which have opted for transparency and which manufacture their products in approved, legal factories. Buy their products and boycott others. At least you'll know that in your own small way, you are not an accomplice.

Oh yes, and petition for the government to impose rules on corporations limiting outsourcing, or vote for those who have a clear record for fighting outsourcing. That alone will bring jobs back to the country. But then, don't you dare whine that products are too expensive. It's the price you pay for booting the illegals and keeping citizens employed. On the other hand, maybe this will cast a different perspective regarding exactly how much luxury anyone needs: monster cars? Jimmy Choos? a computer that can talk to aliens? Maybe we don't really need that much after all, if that's the cost of legal employment for all.

4. Now the hairiest point which many will not like. What reason exactly do the UK, France, and Belgium have to complain about illegal immigration? Why, did no one realize that something like this would happen after centuries of imperialism? Did no one foresee that those Indians or North Africans would ask for their debts back? Sure, YOU weren't around for that, YOU didn't condone it, YOU didn't colonize or enslave or exploit anyone. Why should your ancestors' sins be visited upon YOU? But then step back and think from the point of view of Indians or North Africans. Why should your ancestors' sins be visited upon THEM? Why should THEY live in conditions you would find unacceptable because their countries were sucked dry and involved in conflicts generated by the greed of imperialism? For the effects of colonialism don't die out once independence is proclaimed. YOU, in fact, are living a decent life because your ancestors enslaved theirs and kept them poor and uneducated. This is why THEY are not living a decent life. So until you have paid back every penny extorted by colonial practices, you have no right to wonder why they are now invading your country. It's just history's way of showing us how the others must have felt when their countries were invaded by the West.

And while North America is at least making a stab at multiculturalism and integration, I haven't seen much of this happening in Europe. The worst example is France, which seemed taken aback by the riots earlier this year. But one of the reasons so many immigrants (including legal ones and second generation citizens) don't have jobs and are burdening the welfare system is because no one is GIVING them jobs. And this is the segment of the vicious circle which needs to be tackled first: acknowledge they're human, treat them like the legal residents they are, and get over your inbred sense of French superiority.

While I AM peeved that my taxes don't give me equal access to certain services, I will acknowledge this about Canada: immigrants are treated humanely here, helped out, and integrated. And to this I tip my hat.
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Post by Spinner »

Referring to the invasion of aliens as "illegal immigration" or "undocumented immigrants" implies a subconscious approval to the act. It sets the stage to argue for amnesty for these "poor people". You cannot equate the illegal act of invasion with that of immigration. In reality this is false immigration. It is invasion by a foreign country and it is done not only with the blessing of Vicente Fox but at his encouragement.



If these invaders were wearing military uniforms and carrying weapons, they would be met by our military forces and with armament. Because they are civilians, or appear to be civilians, these illegals are seen as simply "those poor people" who want a better life.



To come into this country by sneaking across the borders is in itself an illegal act. If the foundation one is standing on is illegal, then everything after wards has no validity. If evidence in a case is obtained during a faulty search or from a defective search warrant, then that evidence is not allowed in the court nor any other evidence obtained from that event.



Why then is this principle not carried over to the illegal alien issue?



It should not matter that any percentage of the illegal alien sector leads a productive life within these borders.



Can I go to a bank and justify stealing the money because 1) I really needed it because I am "too poor" to pay my bills and 2) I am a really good person in the other areas of my life?



Or how about if the next time the local police stop you for nothing more but you were not wearing your seatbelt and you say, "If the city tolerates illegal aliens whose very presence is prima facie evidence of a crime, then surely the city will tolerate my not wearing a seatbelt. Otherwise, this is discrimination!"



This is why the entire notion of a "sanctuary city" is ridiculous. The city has just told their voting and tax paying base that there are certain rules that pertain only to certain segments of the citizenry. If you are a law abiding citizen, then these special privileges are not for you. You have to obey all the rules. But if you are an invader, then you get the "Red Carpet" treatment.



Am I the only one to think there is something wrong with this picture? NO...

Thank God (yes..I said the bad 3 letter word!)...there is one Mayor in the whole entire country whose principles are in good working order. Who isn't afraid to be "politically incorrect". Thank you Mayor Lou Barletta of Hazleton, PA!



In an Open Letter he stated that due to the illegal alien issue, the people of Hazleton are afraid, they are not getting the full benefit of services their tax dollars are paying for, plus the hospitals and schools are over burdened. And he has stated that English will be the language of business conducted in the courts and the city. Landlords and employers who knowingly rent to or hire illegals will suffer a stiff financial penalty.



To Mayor Bill White of Houston, Texas: Do you hear what this small town mayor has done to protect his people? What is your excuse?



"A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet" -- Shakespeare "Romeo and Juliet" Undocumented immigrants, illegal immigrants and illegal aliens all mean the same thing: ILLEGAL INVADERS across our borders.



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Post by valerie »

Quite possibly THE best first post I've ever seen... kudos and a warm

welcome to the Garden...



:yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap



:-6
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Post by Lulu2 »

From an Associated Press story today--Latin Americans working outside their countries will send $60 billion home this year. The bulk of the money, an estimated $45 billion is being sent by 12.6 million "immigrants" from Latin American who ship money home regularly from the United States.

These are people who are receiving free education for their children, usually free medical care (although I can't qualify for it) and who are using resources (including gasoline) now being stretched thin by the presence of millions of illegals.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Lulu2 »

A local candidate for office has been soundly THRASHED and CONDEMNED by media and other candidates, because his office sent a letter to newly registered voters, reminding them that Federal law prohibits illegals from registering/voting.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: A local candidate for office has been soundly THRASHED and CONDEMNED by media and other candidates, because his office sent a letter to newly registered voters, reminding them that Federal law prohibits illegals from registering/voting.
Will you vote for him? :)
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Post by Lulu2 »

Not in my district and not in my party. Would YOU?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Post by Accountable »

Lulu2 wrote: Not in my district and not in my party. Would YOU?
I would definitely give him big points right from the start.
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Post by RedGlitter »

Did this candidate do something wrong? I'm not seeing it. I don't know if I would vote for him based on this but I would credit him for it.



I was looking through this entire thread last night.

I am getting extremely tired of that cop-out about "they take jobs Americans are too good for." There's a reason Americans won't take those jobs and I feel, rightly so. I'm afraid I see illegal aliens coming here and stealing our jobs and our benefits the same way union workers see "scabs" who cross the picket line to make a buck. I can't apologize for that. :thinking:
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Post by Spinner »

RedGlitter wrote: Did this candidate do something wrong? I'm not seeing it. I don't know if I would vote for him based on this but I would credit him for it.



I was looking through this entire thread last night.

I am getting extremely tired of that cop-out about "they take jobs Americans are too good for." There's a reason Americans won't take those jobs and I feel, rightly so. I'm afraid I see illegal aliens coming here and stealing our jobs and our benefits the same way union workers see "scabs" who cross the picket line to make a buck. I can't apologize for that. :thinking:



You are SSOOO right!



For a time I worked as a Project Coordinator for a company that not only did floor and carpet maintenance, but also did After Construction Cleaning. I would go out to job sites, ask for the foreman or job superintendent and see if they had given the contract to someone. I can't tell you how many times I went to job sites where NO ONE spoke English. Usually they were bricklayers or cement workers. Those are skilled crafts that Americans can do and will do but not for $6/hr.



I went to CiCi's Pizza today with my daughter. She asked the girl behind the counter to make a special pizza...the girl had to go get someone who spoke English!



These jobs use to be held by teens after school, on week-ends and during the summer. Not any more....I don't care if it is McDonald's, Whataburger, Wendy's or any other fast food chain...they all hire illegals and that cuts the teenagers and the older folks out of the job.



I'm sick of politicians who refuse to uphold their Oaths of Office..to protect America from all enemies both foreign and domestic.



Vote them out and start over!



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ILLEGAL aliens

Post by telephoto lens »

Excuse me if I am duplicating someone's prior responce but there are issues not being discussed regarding illegal aliens. The major one is NAFTA. Before NAFTA there were 2 million illegals in American and afterwards, 12 million. Why? NAFTA lowered trade barriers that protected Mexican farmers and tradesmen and, since NAFTA, a minimum of 25,000 small businessmen have gone out of business. When these barriers were removed american agriculture conglomerates could import corn at rediculously low prices so Mexican farmers could not make any money from their yield. Also, the barriers that protected local craftsman...cobblers, tailers.....were eliminated and placed them in a positon to compete against the likes of Wallmart so they could not make any money, they actually lost money, when they produced shoes, dresses, etc. What NAFTA did was to place the average Mexican in an economic depressed state and where did they go? Here. Because the corrupt Mexican government does not guard the border - as they should, they tacitly allow illegals to come to America. The porous border is a safeguard for the Mexican government because it allows discontented Mexican citizens (an often dangerous) route to escape poverty. And who benefits from this? Upper class Mexicans and upper class Americans. I am not one of those people who preach class warefare but this is what is happening. Until NAFTA is re-negotiated with protections for workers and the environment, non-wealthy Americans and Mexicans will continue to get the shaft. Furthermore, if the American government did really want to clampdown on American businesses who employ illegals, all they have to do is make the fine for hiring illegals prohibitive - to the point where the fine is not considered a business deduction. Furthermore, if the American economy goes sour - a serious recession, you will see Mexicans leave the country because working class Americans will do the jobs that illegals currently do. In the late 19th century there were many skilled Chinese workers in America and when the economy tanked there was a serious anti-chinese movement afoot and there was much discrimination and violence against the chinese workers. When this happenned the Chinese went home.

Just some thoughts.
RedGlitter
Posts: 15777
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by RedGlitter »

Some good points to think about there, Telephoto.
telephoto lens
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:42 pm

ILLEGAL aliens

Post by telephoto lens »

RedGlitter wrote: Some good points to think about there, Telephoto.



Now that I hit the vaunted 15 posts I will be able to supply the link where I learned the NAFTA information. It will take me some time but I will find it.

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