Assisted suicides

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OpenMind
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Post by OpenMind »

This article was in the news today and I sympathise with this couple.



Debbie Purdy 'ecstatic' as she wins House of Lords appeal over assisted suicide

Multiple sclerosis sufferer Debbie Purdy has won a landmark court battle that campaigners fear could lead to more people ending their lives in foreign "suicide clinics".

Debbie Purdy 'ecstatic' as she wins House of Lords appeal over assisted suicide - Telegraph



But what of those people who have not had the foresight or the chance to commit suicide with their spouse's or close partner's help.

I think that if, for instance, I lost my intellectual abilities, and needed constant assistance to continue to live a meaningless life, I would want to be 'put down'.

What are your opinions?
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Post by mrsK »

I would like to think that if I was no longer capable of much that I could do something to solve the problem.

Probably won't know for sure till the time comes.
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Post by kazalala »

I think you can have what they call a living will stating your wishes if ever you get to that stage OM,,, I suppose if you are not ill and have no idea you may one day be in that position, it wouldnt be thought of as an option though :thinking: What im thinking here as well is,,, what about the people who cannort afford to go to switzerland and do this,,:( did you ever watch the film, "a short trip to Switzeralnd" i think it was caled or something similar with Julie walters,, it was based on a true story and covered the trials and tribulations of this scenario.




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Post by Oscar Namechange »

If you have ever watched anyone truely suffer you will agree with assisted suicide. After my father had died, my mother revealed that he was on the point of asking me to help him over-dose. He told her that out of everyone, i would be the only one who would have the courage to do it and stand by my convictions. That was in a strange way a huge compliment from my father but i'm not sure i could have done it. Like many, i wouldn't have given a toss about the law and what happened to me afterwards, but could i have done it to my father? I don't know. I suppose i'm relieved, he never actually asked me.

It's very easy to comment and for those to disagree with it if you have never been in that situation.

We would not keep a dog alive the way my father suffered yet we have this stigma over assisted suicide.
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Post by OpenMind »

kazalala;1223282 wrote: I think you can have what they call a living will stating your wishes if ever you get to that stage OM,,, I suppose if you are not ill and have no idea you may one day be in that position, it wouldnt be thought of as an option though :thinking: What im thinking here as well is,,, what about the people who cannort afford to go to switzerland and do this,,:( did you ever watch the film, "a short trip to Switzeralnd" i think it was caled or something similar with Julie walters,, it was based on a true story and covered the trials and tribulations of this scenario.


No, I didn't see the film. I read about the film.

It wasn't that long ago - some time in the last century - that attempted suicide was illegal.

I don't think we have 'living' wills in the UK.

It's a convoluted and emotive subject. We generally know when someone is better off dead as such, but assisting suicide is tantamount to murder in the eyes of the law. Care and caution has to be exercised in case a someone wilfully murdered their partner and put it down to assisted suicide. But I think that a person should have the right to end their partner's or dependent relative's life when that life becomes meaningless or unbearable without any hope of recovery.

On the other side of the coin, even where, as in the posted article, the court's permission has been obtained, the final act should still be ordained by court with recommendations by doctors and solicitors to protect an individual from reckless 'assisted suicide'.
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Post by OpenMind »

oscar;1223285 wrote: If you have ever watched anyone truely suffer you will agree with assisted suicide. After my father had died, my mother revealed that he was on the point of asking me to help him over-dose. He told her that out of everyone, i would be the only one who would have the courage to do it and stand by my convictions. That was in a strange way a huge compliment from my father but i'm not sure i could have done it. Like many, i wouldn't have given a toss about the law and what happened to me afterwards, but could i have done it to my father? I don't know. I suppose i'm relieved, he never actually asked me.

It's very easy to comment and for those to disagree with it if you have never been in that situation.

We would not keep a dog alive the way my father suffered yet we have this stigma over assisted suicide.


The difference between an animal and a human being 'put down', as it were, is religious, I believe. Despite our apparently irreligious society, we still have moral codes based on centuries of religious doctrine. Afer all, it is mostly through religious moral codes that we have become a 'civilised' society. Don't laugh. Most people do live by a moral code. And it is repugnant to us to coldly murder someone, even if they are not a close relative.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

OpenMind;1223293 wrote: The difference between an animal and a human being 'put down', as it were, is religious, I believe. Despite our apparently irreligious society, we still have moral codes based on centuries of religious doctrine. Afer all, it is mostly through religious moral codes that we have become a 'civilised' society. Don't laugh. Most people do live by a moral code. And it is repugnant to us to coldly murder someone, even if they are not a close relative. I agree with you. Not sure i could have helped my father. Even when all are saying there is nothing more to be done, you still hold out for a miracle.
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Post by OpenMind »

oscar;1223294 wrote: I agree with you. Not sure i could have helped my father. Even when all are saying there is nothing more to be done, you still hold out for a miracle.


To be honest, I am not in a position to say. Both my parents have been gone for over a decade now and required no assistance.

Yet, it must be the greatest act of love to perform this act for your beloved. Nonehteless, I would not wish this act to be placed upon my daughter at any time. Unless she expressed to the relevant authorities that she could and wished to do it, I would expect to be euthanised by a properly qualified doctor.
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Post by Oscar Namechange »

OpenMind;1223302 wrote: To be honest, I am not in a position to say. Both my parents have been gone for over a decade now and required no assistance.

Yet, it must be the greatest act of love to perform this act for your beloved. Nonehteless, I would not wish this act to be placed upon my daughter at any time. Unless she expressed to the relevant authorities that she could and wished to do it, I would expect to be euthanised by a properly qualified doctor. I can see that if it were made legal, some would exploit the law and open up a can of worms in legal cases being brought.
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Post by kazalala »

OpenMind;1223288 wrote: No, I didn't see the film. I read about the film.

It wasn't that long ago - some time in the last century - that attempted suicide was illegal.

I don't think we have 'living' wills in the UK.

It's a convoluted and emotive subject. We generally know when someone is better off dead as such, but assisting suicide is tantamount to murder in the eyes of the law. Care and caution has to be exercised in case a someone wilfully murdered their partner and put it down to assisted suicide. But I think that a person should have the right to end their partner's or dependent relative's life when that life becomes meaningless or unbearable without any hope of recovery.

On the other side of the coin, even where, as in the posted article, the court's permission has been obtained, the final act should still be ordained by court with recommendations by doctors and solicitors to protect an individual from reckless 'assisted suicide'.
I dont think it should be just "allowed" to assist in suicide without proper supervision, rules etc.. I mean the ones now that go to switzerland have to sign forms etc,, the "assistance they need is probably assistance in actually getting there,,and of course the asistance from proffessional doctors to aid in the final process.

It would have to be done i suppose while the person still has enough faculties to make it known its what they want,, and maybe when it is proven that the act is only bringing on the inevitable in a more controlled way.




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Post by Bill Sikes »

OpenMind;1223279 wrote: Debbie Purdy 'ecstatic' as she wins House of Lords appeal over assisted suicide


All she got was a ruling that the DPP must set out the circumstances in which it would prosecute people for procuring a suicide abroad. Nothing else.
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Post by Odie »

this is illegal in Canada......pity.
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Post by OpenMind »

Bill Sikes;1223311 wrote: All she got was a ruling that the DPP must set out the circumstances in which it would prosecute people for procuring a suicide abroad. Nothing else.


Quite so. The article prompted me to start a thread here on the subject to explore mine and members' thoughts on the subject.
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Post by OpenMind »

kazalala;1223309 wrote: I dont think it should be just "allowed" to assist in suicide without proper supervision, rules etc.. I mean the ones now that go to switzerland have to sign forms etc,, the "assistance they need is probably assistance in actually getting there,,and of course the asistance from proffessional doctors to aid in the final process.

It would have to be done i suppose while the person still has enough faculties to make it known its what they want,, and maybe when it is proven that the act is only bringing on the inevitable in a more controlled way.


It's a complex issue. Let's say a perfectly healthy young man who had not made provision for an assisted suicide had an accident which left him in an intolerable condition, psychologically, physiologically, intellectually, or otherwise, and unable to communicate by any means. His life would be sustained by any means available as required by law. Let's further compound this and assume his parents are dead, he has no siblings, and is neither married or engaged to be. In other words, he has no one to petition on his behalf.

Can you imagine what it would be like to live the rest of your life like this. At the moment, a hospital has to sustain him if he needs medication. A hospital is not required to sustain a man if he does not require medication.

If he did have even just one family member, then that one person would be morally obliged to nurture him for the rest of his unbearable life.

I respect that this is supposition. Nonetheless, I would not want to have my life sustained if that was me.
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Post by kazalala »

OpenMind;1223350 wrote: It's a complex issue. Let's say a perfectly healthy young man who had not made provision for an assisted suicide had an accident which left him in an intolerable condition, psychologically, physiologically, intellectually, or otherwise, and unable to communicate by any means. His life would be sustained by any means available as required by law. Let's further compound this and assume his parents are dead, he has no siblings, and is neither married or engaged to be. In other words, he has no one to petition on his behalf.

Can you imagine what it would be like to live the rest of your life like this. At the moment, a hospital has to sustain him if he needs medication. A hospital is not required to sustain a man if he does not require medication.

If he did have even just one family member, then that one person would be morally obliged to nurture him for the rest of his unbearable life.

I respect that this is supposition. Nonetheless, I would not want to have my life sustained if that was me.


yes unfortunately scenarios like this probably happen ,,, even if the young man has family ,, sometimes depending on circumstances they are asked to make the decision to either carry on sustaining him or to turn off life support,,, the hardest decision for anyone:thinking:, I suppose its good to talk about these things to friends and family so they know your feelings:thinking:but if you had no family ,, it would be left in hands of doctors i would assume,, and maybe a court?

in this issue though, that you have brought up in your OP ,, it might make things a lot easier and clearer for some people in the future to be able to at least make a decision without worrying about thier loved ones they are leaving behind are going to end up in jail. Thats assuming of course they can afford to do it. The next step,,, a long way off i think is having some sort of facilty in the United Kingdom.




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Post by Bill Sikes »

OpenMind;1223350 wrote: Let's say a perfectly healthy young man who had not made provision for an assisted suicide had an accident which left him in an intolerable condition, psychologically, physiologically, intellectually, or otherwise, and unable to communicate by any means. His life would be sustained by any means available as required by law. Let's further compound this and assume his parents are dead, he has no siblings, and is neither married or engaged to be. In other words, he has no one to petition on his behalf.

Can you imagine what it would be like to live the rest of your life like this.


There are big difficulties with ideas like this - in particular, above:

He's unable to communicate - how do you know that he's in an "intolerable condition"? You don't.

There is no-one to petition on his behalf - even if there were, it would be unfair to expect a relative to sanction "assisted suicide", not knowing whether this was desired by the person concerned - it would be an extremely dangerous action to take in any case.

He "had made no provision for "assisted suicide" - even if he had, it might be the case that he'd changed his mind.

"Can you imagine what it would be like to live the rest of your life like this"? That is also a dangerous idea. People have recovered from unconciousness after years and years. Medical advances are constantly being made.

It is unsafe and unsound to make assumptions such as those made in post#14.
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Post by minks »

I am all for assisted suicide. I wish we could have aided my ex FIL it just is not fun seeing someone you love drugged up on morphine so they don't know they are going to die.:-1
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Post by OpenMind »

Bill Sikes;1223367 wrote: There are big difficulties with ideas like this - in particular, above:

He's unable to communicate - how do you know that he's in an "intolerable condition"? You don't.

There is no-one to petition on his behalf - even if there were, it would be unfair to expect a relative to sanction "assisted suicide", not knowing whether this was desired by the person concerned - it would be an extremely dangerous action to take in any case.

He "had made no provision for "assisted suicide" - even if he had, it might be the case that he'd changed his mind.

"Can you imagine what it would be like to live the rest of your life like this"? That is also a dangerous idea. People have recovered from unconciousness after years and years. Medical advances are constantly being made.

It is unsafe and unsound to make assumptions such as those made in post#14.


I agree and the example exemplifies the complexity of the issue.
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Post by Odie »

a couple of years ago, my mother had a miracle happen, sure glad we never had the chance to decide..........



now...........maybe it would be much better for her.:-4
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Post by OpenMind »

Odie;1223537 wrote: a couple of years ago, my mother had a miracle happen, sure glad we never had the chance to decide..........



now...........maybe it would be much better for her.:-4


Did you know beforehand that a 'miracle' might happen?
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Post by Odie »

OpenMind;1223561 wrote: Did you know beforehand that a 'miracle' might happen?


no, how could we know?

-nurses and doctors were completely in shock.
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Post by Victoria »

Suicide was a criminal offense in the UK until 1967.



While you do hear of miricle cases lets remember thats what they are, one in a million, the rest die in agony or so doped up they dont know who they are anymore thats not life thats a living death.

As I now live in the netherlands where euthanasia is legal I have known people who have chosen to leave rather than carry on in agony.



A 27 yr old man who had suffered cancer since the age of 13. He had had operations to remove tumors chemo and radio therapy and at 25 was declared cancer free but he wasnt, it had got into his spine and the pain was agonizing. For him there was no cure, no miricle waiting to happen so he choose to end his suffering.

He gave a big party for all his friends and family and two days later he went into hospital and died.

The rules here are

you must be terminal,

you must have exhausted every medical option,

you must prove you are in pain and have no resonable quality of life,

you must be of sound mind and not in depression

Two doctors must independantly assess and agree the above terms are met , then and only then will you be allowed euthansia.

Doctors say they cant play God but thats what they do everyday by not letting people go, by forcing them to stay alive they are determining when its time to die..

My life = my choice.
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Post by kazalala »

Excellent post Victoria:-6,, and thanks for contributing here as you are in a country that allows it:)




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Post by OpenMind »

That looks like a fuss-free simple set of parameters, Victoria.

I wonder what our Government would tack together.

Debbie Purdy case: MP David Winnick pledges to launch Bill calling for assisted suicide to be legalised in UK



Debbie Purdy case: MP David Winnick pledges to launch Bill calling for assisted suicide to be legalised in UK - Telegraph
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Post by Victoria »

It is a clear set of guidelines with safeguards. For example someone with alzhiemers or a sickness which will render a patient unable to communicate can make a sort of living will called a declaration of euthanisa in which they lay out exactly what they do and dont want as regards treatment and at what point they want a doctor to help them end thier life..

Yet the UN are challenging it, quoteing 'the right to live'

but surely by taking away someones right to die we are not 'giving' them a right to live, we are just forcing our will on them?
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Post by OpenMind »

Victoria;1223739 wrote: It is a clear set of guidelines with safeguards. For example someone with alzhiemers or a sickness which will render a patient unable to communicate can make a sort of living will called a declaration of euthanisa in which they lay out exactly what they do and dont want as regards treatment and at what point they want a doctor to help them end thier life..

Yet the UN are challenging it, quoteing 'the right to live'

but surely by taking away someones right to die we are not 'giving' them a right to live, we are just forcing our will on them?


I wouldn't stake my life on it but, I believe these arcane laws derive from religious beliefs where suffering was considered to be good for the soul.

I believe that some suffering is good for the soul but there is a point beyond which suffering depletes a person's spirit.
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Post by Accountable »

I don't see how we can conscientiously prohibit a person's right to determine his own death or wishes upon incapacitation, if he decides to. I think suicide or assisted suicide should be permitted, but decisions on euthenasia should be set up by the individual well ahead of time. One of our Gardeners has been at least close to such a decision. Many others might have chosen mercy killing if it was an option. I wonder what I would want, what I would choose.
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Post by OpenMind »

Accountable;1223794 wrote: I don't see how we can conscientiously prohibit a person's right to determine his own death or wishes upon incapacitation, if he decides to. I think suicide or assisted suicide should be permitted, but decisions on euthenasia should be set up by the individual well ahead of time. One of our Gardeners has been at least close to such a decision. Many others might have chosen mercy killing if it was an option. I wonder what I would want, what I would choose.


The only thing I would question of what you have said is '...but decisions on euthenasia should be set up by the individual well ahead of time.'

For instance, if a young adult may not have got around to setting up a provisions for euthanasia. If said person had a bad accident that rendered their life intolerable, pointless, or worthless, etc., then there needs to be a process whereby the matter could be taken to court.
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Post by Bill Sikes »

OpenMind;1223431 wrote: I agree and the example exemplifies the complexity of the issue.


There's a "flip side" to the argument, too - consider capital punishment.
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Post by OpenMind »

Bill Sikes;1223804 wrote: There's a "flip side" to the argument, too - consider capital punishment.


As the law stands at the moment, capital punishment is not an option in the UK. I think this is just as well as their can be an element of doubt on any guilty verdict given.

On the other hand, it may be appropriate for someone who is absolutely known to to be a danger to the public - a psychopath for instance or someone who repeatedly murders. It would be the lesser of two evils. Better that one person is killed 'humanely' rather than two horribly.
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Post by Accountable »

OpenMind;1223802 wrote: The only thing I would question of what you have said is '...but decisions on euthenasia should be set up by the individual well ahead of time.'

For instance, if a young adult may not have got around to setting up a provisions for euthanasia. If said person had a bad accident that rendered their life intolerable, pointless, or worthless, etc., then there needs to be a process whereby the matter could be taken to court.
Who would define intolerable, pointless, & worthless? A politician in some law? No. I think provisions are already in place for next of kin to make such decisions. If a person has no next of kin, I would think it rather calous for disinterested parties to even discuss turning off the machine.
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Post by OpenMind »

Accountable;1223865 wrote: Who would define intolerable, pointless, & worthless? A politician in some law? No. I think provisions are already in place for next of kin to make such decisions. If a person has no next of kin, I would think it rather calous for disinterested parties to even discuss turning off the machine.


The court would make the decision.

It would be an inhumane society that left a person to suffer because they had no close relatives.

In the UK, the only instance of allowing someone to die is if they are on life support machines.
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Post by Accountable »

It would be an inhumane society who took away a person's chance to fight for life without knowing his wishes.



I can understand turning off a machine that is operating organs of a brain dead body, but to euthanize someone because a court of healthy people think they can empathize is going too far. Fight for the person who can't fight for himself until he is healthy enough to communicate his own wishes.
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Post by OpenMind »

Accountable;1223960 wrote: It would be an inhumane society who took away a person's chance to fight for life without knowing his wishes.



I can understand turning off a machine that is operating organs of a brain dead body, but to euthanize someone because a court of healthy people think they can empathize is going too far. Fight for the person who can't fight for himself until he is healthy enough to communicate his own wishes.


You are making assumptions that may not exist. For instance, the person may never recover sufficiently to communicate, and for that, the person may be condemned to a life of hell.

A court, at least in the UK, would not make a decision without a great deal of debate along with testaments by professionals qualified to offer an expert opinion on the quality of the person's experience of life.
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Post by Accountable »

OpenMind;1223966 wrote: You are making assumptions that may not exist. For instance, the person may never recover sufficiently to communicate, and for that, the person may be condemned to a life of hell.

A court, at least in the UK, would not make a decision without a great deal of debate along with testaments by professionals qualified to offer an expert opinion on the quality of the person's experience of life.
Now who's making the assumptions? Hell? You're sure? (rhetorical)

I'm assuming nothing. I'm saying that your court of Solomons are inadequate to the task of determining who should live and who should die.
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Post by OpenMind »

Accountable;1224284 wrote: Now who's making the assumptions? Hell? You're sure? (rhetorical)

I'm assuming nothing. I'm saying that your court of Solomons areinadequate to the task of determining who should live and who should die.


Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't. Your Daddy's a ******.

Surely you can do better than indulge in name-calling.
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Post by Accountable »

OpenMind;1224306 wrote: Yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't. Your Daddy's a ******.

Surely you can do better than indulge in name-calling.
Didn't mean it as name-calling, sorry. I was trying to say in a colorful way that no human has the wisdom of making such decisions. I'm sure we won't convince each other.
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Post by OpenMind »

Accountable;1224392 wrote: Didn't mean it as name-calling, sorry. I was trying to say in a colorful way that no human has the wisdom of making such decisions. I'm sure we won't convince each other.


I agree. We're not going to agree.

I'll just say this then. I would try to establish whether the person is suffering or not. I would feel as guilty for leaving the person suffering needlessly for the rest of his life as I would for needlessly euthanising a person who was not suffering.

I acknowledge that no system is foolproof. Also, each individual's experience and meaning of suffering can be different.
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Post by Accountable »

We can agree there.
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Post by Mariposa Traicionera »

I'm coming in to this late, but I wouldn't want to live a life where I had to be assisted to move, bathe, dress myself, etc. Even if I was not in pain I think it would be humiliating and would want the option to be euthanized.
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Post by OpenMind »

Mariposa Traicionera;1235803 wrote: I'm coming in to this late, but I wouldn't want to live a life where I had to be assisted to move, bathe, dress myself, etc. Even if I was not in pain I think it would be humiliating and would want the option to be euthanized.


I think that your view is shared by most and the simple remedy is to create a 'living will' to empower others to arrange for our euthanisation. The problem is how to deal with those who have no living will and are unable to convey their wishes.
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Assisted suicides

Post by K.Snyder »

Mariposa Traicionera;1235803 wrote: I'm coming in to this late, but I wouldn't want to live a life where I had to be assisted to move, bathe, dress myself, etc. Even if I was not in pain I think it would be humiliating and would want the option to be euthanized.


I sincerely doubt you'd say that if you were actually in that position(No pain).

Obviously I believe the pain aspect of life would be the worst set of circumstances anyone could bear...

How can anyone suggest not euthanizing a patient when no modern medicine relieves their torment can be acceptable by any standard let alone standards known by "yourselves"! If I had the power I'd bring "you" up on charges of felony battery
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