It's time these six innocent men are released from Indian prison.

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Post by G#Gill »

There are 6 innocent British Veterans being held in jail in India. They could be there for another 4 or more years. This video has been compiled by Yvonne Machugh from Glasgpw, along with other wives, to try to bring this awful injustice more into the general public's eye. What I'd like to know is what is our Government doing about this. Just watch the video, and maybe things will become clear to you.

https://www.change.org/p/british-foreig ... 882&jb=109
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Customs officials and police found 35 guns, including semi-automatic weapons, and almost 6,000 rounds of ammunition on board the ship which did not have permission to be in Indian waters.

India firearms charge ex-soldiers sent to jail - BBC News





You have a strange idea of what constitutes innocence, Gill.
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Apparently the men were part of a patrol, trying to protect merchant shipping from attack and piracy, which was rife at the time. Hence the guns and the ammunition on board. At first, it would seem, that the Indian authorities could find no reason to disbelieve that the vessel had accidentally strayed into Indian waters and the case was dismissed. Then there was a change of heart and the six men were arrested and jailed without charge, it would seem. If you have more evidence of how, why, when and where in this case, then perhaps you would explain further so that we can all be up-to-date with this mystifying situation. Of course, you have watched the video haven't you ?
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Were they about to invade a small island?

Is the question about whether the firearms existed or planted or did they have a goid excuse? Pirates?

Maybe they dont know how to use a fishing rod? Or they were on their own whaling cull?
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G#Gill;1512071 wrote: Apparently the men were part of a patrol, trying to protect merchant shipping from attack and piracy, which was rife at the time.
With whose authority, Gill? Which government licensed them to act as sheriff?
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Oh, well if thats the case then the shipping company will have records and contracts in relation to their security role. How trained military personel strayed where they shouldnt be is puzzling because it means they left their post.
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spot;1512075 wrote: With whose authority, Gill? Which government licensed them to act as sheriff?


I haven't the faintest clue, do you ?
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magentaflame;1512076 wrote: Oh, well if thats the case then the shipping company will have records and contracts in relation to their security role. How trained military personel strayed where they shouldnt be is puzzling because it means they left their post.


I understand that there was a bad storm at the time they strayed from the accepted area. Perhaps their compass went on the blink at the wrong time - before anybody else suggests that !
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G#Gill;1512077 wrote: I haven't the faintest clue, do you ?I do know. The answer is "with none", Gill, which gives them no authority whatever to be anything other than civilians. And they're taking 35 guns, including semi-automatic weapons, and almost 6,000 rounds of ammunition into India's territorial waters without declaring them or getting permission? You honestly think that's legal, or that it should be? Would you expect HM Customs and Excise to arrest a boatload of Indian nationals off Margate tooled up like that?
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Its not "sherriff" spot. Plenty of companies use protective services. Governments as well.
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G#Gill;1512078 wrote: from the accepted area.


Go on - accepted by whom?
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magentaflame;1512080 wrote: Its not "sherriff" spot. Plenty of companies use protective services. Governments as well.


Do they not need governmental authority before doing that? Can you give me an instance more recent than Captain Morgan when it's been lawful without written lawful authority?
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G#Gill;1512078 wrote: I understand that there was a bad storm at the time they strayed from the accepted area. Perhaps their compass went on the blink at the wrong time - before anybody else suggests that !


Well i hope their military service didnt include British navy. That would be a bit embarrassing.
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spot;1512083 wrote: Do they not need governmental authority before doing that? Can you give me an instance more recent than Captain Morgan when it's been lawful without written lawful authority?


Their crime as i see it, isnt their protective services role but straying into waters they shouldnt be in . If that is indeed the story.

And just for your info ...yes some protective services have authority (and yes only in citizen basis in a particular role of protection) in international lands. Its not unlike diplomats. You dont actually believe royalty, the pope, and other vips use only their own countrymen for protection do you?
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I just posted a video which demonstrated great concern towards 6 British veterans who have been incarcerated in a primitive Indian jail apparently without charge for some time now. At the least it is totally against human rights. If there are no charges after all this time, then those six men should be allowed to go free. I just posted the video because I felt that there was an injustice. I wasn't really expecting to have all that I have written, challenged spot, as if I've just typed a pack of lies.
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magentaflame;1512085 wrote: Their crime as i see it, isnt their protective services role but straying into waters they shouldnt be in . If that is indeed the story.

And just for your info ...yes some protective services have authority (and yes only in citizen basis in a particular role of protection) in international lands. Its not unlike diplomats. You dont actually believe royalty, the pope, and other vips use only their own countrymen for protection do you?


Of course some protective services have authority. My only point is that these six didn't. They had no authority from any government in the world, least of all India's, to be in Indian territorial waters with those weapons, and they were there and they had them. Claiming they didn't mean to be is irrelevant. As for gun-running, the arms haul is about the same as those cocky sods a couple of years ago bringing Czech small-arms into the UK across the English Channel in a speedboat.
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Its not yet an injustice gill. Different countries have different rules of remand/holding suspects/ and laws. Im afraid i have to agree with Spot in his margate scenario. Britain has laws to detain without charge and it would apply in this instance.

They'll eventually get it sorted.
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G#Gill;1512090 wrote: If there are no charges after all this time, then those six men should be allowed to go free.
Did you not read the BBC article I linked to? They were charged, the charges dropped, the prosecution appealed and won, the case was tried before a judge in court, the six were found guilty and sentenced to jail. If your video says otherwise then it's either a very old video or very untruthful.
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spot;1512093 wrote: Of course some protective services have authority. My only point is that these six didn't. They had no authority from any government in the world, least of all India's, to be in Indian territorial waters with those weapons, and they were there and they had them. Claiming they didn't mean to be is irrelevant. As for gun-running, the arms haul is about the same as those cocky sods with the speedboat a couple of years ago bringing Czech small-arms into the UK across the English |Channel in a speedboat.


Thats what i mean about proof of records and contracts.

Like i said, if its all above board itll be sorted
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Oh well gill...theres your answer i guess.

I tell my grown sons all the time be careful where you go in the world.
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Oh well, there you go. I keep telling myself not to get involved in politics or religion and now I think it would be wise to keep away from bickering between countries, simply because I cannot digest sufficient information to involve myself in a deep debate, when perhaps I would dearly like to get involved. It must be the age thing !
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Dont be silly gill, you were manipulated with the information. We've all been there.:wah:

Thank goodness we have spot to succinctly correct us
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G#Gill;1512102 wrote: Oh well, there you go. I keep telling myself not to get involved in politics or religion and now I think it would be wise to keep away from bickering between countries, simply because I cannot digest sufficient information to involve myself in a deep debate, when perhaps I would dearly like to get involved. It must be the age thing !


It's not that at all Gill, it's that you so often attempt to serve up the unpalatable as wholesome fare by defending the indefensible.
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Thank you Mr. spot for clarifying the various legal paths travelled in the Indian courts. As I have said, I really don't think I should get too involved with stuff that requires discussion and debate, don't you agree ? You know I can't even knit, so there is no point in taking up knitting as a substitute !
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spot;1512109 wrote: It's not that at all Gill, it's that you so often attempt to serve up the unpalatable as wholesome fare by defending the indefensible.


Go on then Mr. spot, quote the last time I did that, including the date please, cos I just cannot remember.
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G#Gill;1512111 wrote: Go on then Mr. spot, quote the last time I did that, including the date please, cos I just cannot remember.


http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/curre ... ost1510969 six weeks back?

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/warni ... ost1509838 six weeks before that? I'd definitely call Grumpy unpalatable and indefensible.

As for this thread it was the word "innocent" which set me off.
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magentaflame;1512106 wrote: Dont be silly gill, you were manipulated with the information. We've all been there.:wah:

Thank goodness we have spot to succinctly correct us


I do hope he is correct, because if he is wrong ............................................
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G#Gill;1512113 wrote: I do hope he is correct, because if he is wrong ............................................You can test what I said by looking at the BBC article I linked to, I've not said anything that's not there.
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I thought we'd all know each other by now, after all these years . Im a rough edged diamond...i accept that. But we also have to accept that almanac Spot has a tendency to piss down your leg, then tell you its a tropical spring shower. He doesnt see his outward persona sometimes.
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I'm old enough to plead incontinence.
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As for these six "innocent" Brits, I would imagine they were employed, by a US security firm with no power of arrest, to kill armed Somalis afloat off the East African coast. I do not believe they had any legal authority to do what they were employed to do, not from the UN or the USA or Somalia or India, and I don't believe they could have got any legal authority even if they'd tried to. There's too much of this "wanted dead or alive" gung-ho slaughter without trial in the name of Western Civilized Values these days. To describe them as "innocent" is an outrage, they appear not to have had even the fig-leaf of being mercenaries. In other times they might have been called bushwhackers setting out a trap.
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spot;1512112 wrote: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/curre ... ost1510969 six weeks back?

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/warni ... ost1509838 six weeks before that? I'd definitely call Grumpy unpalatable and indefensible.

As for this thread it was the word "innocent" which set me off.


I suppose I was guilty of emotion taking over from research and discovering the truth. I still feel that 4 years in those conditions is more than enough of a punishment, and they should be allowed their freedom.
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I reckon there's a half million petition signers who saw the words "innocent British Veterans" and clicked instantly.
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Well Mr. spot, at least I donated a different thread for you to have a discussion in. Made a bit of a change perhaps ?
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Hey MF, I do hope your son is OK, must have been a terrible shock to you for one so young to have a heart problem like that. I wish him all the very best. Take care both of you.
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G#Gill;1512126 wrote: I suppose I was guilty of emotion taking over from research and discovering the truth. I still feel that 4 years in those conditions is more than enough of a punishment, and they should be allowed their freedom.


There we are - released and headed back to the UK.

In the midst of planning her reunion with Billy, Yvonne wanted to take a moment to thank her signers:

“I am absolutely overwhelmed and delighted that our men have been acquitted of all charges and will soon be home in our arms. For four years we've fought this injustice and finally they are free. I literally could not have carried on had it not been for the support each and every one of our signers have shown. The parcels you sent the men. The letters you wrote to them and the messages of hope and support you sent myself and all the families was invaluable. Thank you.”
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spot;1512121 wrote: as for these six "innocent" brits, i would imagine they were employed, by a us security firm with no power of arrest, to kill armed somalis afloat off the east african coast. I do not believe they had any legal authority to do what they were employed to do, not from the un or the usa or somalia or india, and i don't believe they could have got any legal authority even if they'd tried to. There's too much of this "wanted dead or alive" gung-ho slaughter without trial in the name of western civilized values these days. To describe them as "innocent" is an outrage, they appear not to have had even the fig-leaf of being mercenaries. In other times they might have been called bushwhackers setting out a trap.


I REST MY CASE MR. SPOT !

Six British soldiers, who have been imprisoned in India for four years, are finally coming home to their families! They’ve been released, acquitted of all charges.

Hopefully they will be home in time for Christmas !

I wonder if they will be compensated for being incarcerated for 4 years when they were innocent of all charges !

At least one of those poor men will have missed their child growing from a year old to starting school !

I'm just relieved that they have been freed at last, after so many people in this country signed a petition to get them freed.
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They spent about half the last four years in jail and half on bail but confined to India, they've run up shocking debts in the process.

I have no idea why you persist in claiming they were innocent. I'd accept hard done by but they've been continually shat on by their employer since the arrests four years ago, that's the primary problem they've faced. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time while their employers were sneaking the ship into Indian waters to buy shady cheap fuel illegally, that was the trigger to all this. They were employees of the company. I've already said what I think of the morality of the job they were each being paid £3,000 a month to do.

Here's the BBC's summary of the background.

The men, who each earned about £3,000 a month, have not been paid since their arrest and AdvanFort has also failed to pay any of their mounting legal costs, according to Lisa Dunn, the sister of detainee Nick Dunn.

A recent hotel bill of about £12,000 was left unpaid by the firm.

"These men are dealing with the consequences for something they haven't done," Ms Dunn said.

[...] Email exchanges from inside AdvanFort HQ, delivered anonymously to the BBC, indicate the company ordered an illegal delivery of fuel to the ship.

Ships wanting to refuel out at sea must use regulated sources but AdvanFort managers are accused of using a local supplier, a fisherman, contrary to the maritime regulations.

In the emails seen by the BBC, managers commanded the boat's captain to hide the fuel and the crew was ordered not to discuss the delivery.

"Put all drums in engine room," it said.

"All crew and guards not to inform the current activity happened."

The guards were merely passengers on the ship and therefore not responsible for activities aboard, according to Mr Dunn.

"Our sole responsibility on that vessel was to rest and recuperate and await further transit," he said.

Another manager at the firm did recognise the danger of such an order.

"Misleading customs and port state officials regarding a vessel's mission, mechanical condition and seaworthiness is a serious matter," he said in an email to the company's bosses, Samir Farajallah - who lives in Dubai - and his son Ahmed.

"I will not condone that type of misrepresentation myself," the concerned employee continued, adding: "Such behaviour puts our vessels and crew at risk of arrest."

Shortly afterwards the coastguard, whose attention was drawn by the fuel exchange, detained the boat and its crew.

[...] "I'd say the company are more crooked than the pirates we are trying to stop getting on the ships," said Dave Taylor, a former employee.

"The lads out there in India, they're totally innocent, they haven't done anything wrong and the company is just letting them drift."

Other well-placed sources said the firm owed money to more than 200 employees, as well as having outstanding debts for rent, legal fees and insurance premiums.

The firm's behaviour is "reprehensible", according to Mr Luhta.

"They ship out on their bills," he said.

"I have a stack of letters in my office from people complaining this company had refused to pay them and still does refuse to pay them.

"The fact that they have abandoned these crew members in a country with no legal defence for more than two years is astonishing."

The BBC approached AdvanFort for an interview, which it declined.

AdvanFort accused of abandoning British men facing India trial - BBC News

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdvanFort

That Wiki info is interesting.
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Oil-rich Arab fly-by-nights with no concept of ethics and a US Corporation to hide behind.
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That's nothing.....say goodbye to the great barrier reef and lots of fertile farm land in Australia. (we don't have much of it) ADANI mine is on it's way. Not one bank would finance them but the Queensland premier has back it all the way. Now China has just lent them money. God help Australia.....cause nobody else will.
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"Chinese Government denies receiving application to fund Carmichael"?

But then they would for the moment, wouldn't they.

I have a feeling China commands more financial clout than Australia, and you're sat on their mineral resources.
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oh don't worry ....we know it.
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I was reading China Daily earlier. It is not an impressive paper but it's a start.
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spot;1512121 wrote: As for these six "innocent" Brits, I would imagine they were employed, by a US security firm with no power of arrest, to kill armed Somalis afloat off the East African coast. I do not believe they had any legal authority to do what they were employed to do, not from the UN or the USA or Somalia or India, and I don't believe they could have got any legal authority even if they'd tried to. There's too much of this "wanted dead or alive" gung-ho slaughter without trial in the name of Western Civilized Values these days. To describe them as "innocent" is an outrage, they appear not to have had even the fig-leaf of being mercenaries. In other times they might have been called bushwhackers setting out a trap.


Good lord they're still bleating on about it.

A former British serviceman who spent four years in an Indian prison has said he was let down by the UK government and that Boris Johnson did “nothing” as foreign secretary to secure their release.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... re-release




£3,000 a month and superior firepower over as many foreigners as you care to shoot, lined up like a coconut shy on an inflatable with nowhere to hide or run?

Let me guess. "A former British serviceman" has a ghost-written McNabish book coming out and he's drumming up public engagements to advertise the fact. They'll be phone-interviewing him on Radio Hereford at this rate. Why The Guardian is collaborating with the publisher's PR agency I have no idea.

Boris Johnson did “nothing” as foreign secretary to secure their release? Quite fairly too, if you ask me.
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It's time these six innocent men are released from Indian prison.

Post by LarsMac »

That kind of reminds me of a couple of stories of Americans wandering across the borders with guns.

One fellow was supposedly moving from Virginia to California and drove across the Mexican border with several guns in his pickup. Claiming he didn't know he was going across the border.

And a fellow driving into Canada who said he did not have any guns, and they asked if they could search his car, and with his permission, found a handgun in his glove box.

Or the fishermen who wandered into Canadian waters with a number of hunting rifles.

Mistakes happen.
“in prayer, it is better to have a heart without words than words without heart.”
― Bunyan

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