Northern Ireland UK Elections

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:31 am

UNIONIST intransigence in Northern Ireland could be exposed if the IRA decides to abandon the armed struggle for purely political means, Sinn Fein claims.

In its election manifesto, the Sinn Fein party set out five conequences if the IRA responds positively to Gerry Adam's request earlier this month to pursue its goals solely through democracy.

The document argued: ''Doing so would revive the peace process, deny the Democratic Unionist Party a veto over progress, remove unionist excuses for non-engagment with Sinn Fein, expose unionist intransigence and put the onus firmly on the British and Irish Governments to move forward.

In a foreword to the manifesto, Mr Adams also threw down the gauntlet to the two Governments. '' This presents a huge challenge to the British Government to face up to its responsibilities on equality, human rights, demilitarisation, justice and policing.'', the Sinn Fein leader said.

''It is a challenge to the Irish Government to address the United Ireland agenda, and the rights of Irish citizens living in Northern Ireland. It is a challenge to unionism to finally accept equally and human rights''.

The Sinn Fein manifesto called for the scaling down of military bases and the British Army's presence in Northern Ireland part of the island of Ireland.

Attached files

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:12 am

Northern Ireland UK Elections,

At present, the Democratic Unionist Party lead by the Rev. Ian Kyle Paisley MP has six seats.Followed by Ulster Unionist Party with five, Sinn Fein the nationalist party with four.

Sinn Fein could possibly finish with six seats.

Some Cartoons of slagging match now going on between the parties

Attached files

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Mon May 02, 2005 9:09 am

If there is one thing that the two opposing sides there agree upon it is that they hate each other.

The 'Peace Process' appears to be a huge exercise in futility.

It would be interesting to hear/see an post from someone living in Northern Ireland. Perhaps they are too busy fighting with each other to have time to voice an opinion on the Forum.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon May 02, 2005 9:45 am

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: If there is one thing that the two opposing sides there agree upon it is that they hate each other.

The 'Peace Process' appears to be a huge exercise in futility.

It would be interesting to hear/see an post from someone living in Northern Ireland. Perhaps they are too busy fighting with each other to have time to voice an opinion on the Forum.I'm from down South of Ireland. I can tell you that the Muslims & the Jews will be dancing in the streets in Israel, before Northern Ireland ever gets their act together. It will never end.

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:18 am

I fear you are absolutely correct, Cptn. B.

What a shame.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon May 02, 2005 11:28 am

Only this everning we learned that Nationalists/republicans and Loyalists/Unionists have firebombed each others clubs in Belfast and Derry Northern Ireland in the eun up to May 5 Election day.

www.bbc.co.uk

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:07 am

Hi there - CBuzz.

Just stopping by to check to see if you have sorted out the political problems in N.Ireland yet.

Seriously - I would be grateful for your clarification on one or two points which interest me.

Firstly - the political party headed up by Ian Paisley is presently the largest party there. Am I right? If after the election they are still the largest party with whom does the British government negotiate to further the process of peaceful advancement?

Secondly - Is there a working government in N Ireland or is that handled by the British.

It seems to me looking at it from afar that if Paisley's party and Sinn Fein both gain seats in the upcoming election it would further polarize the situation. Is that a fair comment?

What is your take on the situation?

Post by **spot** » Wed May 04, 2005 7:27 am

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: Secondly - Is there a working government in N Ireland or is that handled by the British.Umm... you do know that Northern Ireland is a British province, don't you? That the population votes members to the United Kingdom parliament in London? That the Head of State in Northern Ireland is Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, By the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of her other Realms and Territories, Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith? How much more working a government do you want?

There was a local assembly, for a while, but it's been suspended. I used to enjoy watching it, while it sat.

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:09 am

Spot- I've read enough to know that Northern Ireland is not a British Provence as you state.

As I understand it, Northern Ireland is a seperate country comprising 6 counties and should not be confused with the Provence of 'Ulster' which contains the same 6 British counties plus a further 3 which lie in the Replubic of Ireland.

It is an integral part of the United Kingdom but not of Britain.

I will be very surprised if the above information is incorrect as it come from 'an impeccable source'

Post by **spot** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:17 am

That's plain ignorance for which, being foreign, you can be excused.

The United Kingdom of which you speak is an abbreviation for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You can see from that name how the parts interact.

England, Scotland and Wales make up the island of Great Britain.

The island of Ireland is also known as Lesser Britain. The two Islands are known collectively as Britain. Northern Ireland is a consequently a British province within the United Kingdom.

I refer you to The Isles, by Norman Davies, 1999, Macmillan, London ISBN 0 333 76370X, for further details, from which I have abstracted these details.

Post by **spot** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:49 am

I do think, Captain, that if the Army Council accepts the democritisation call of Sinn Fein, bites the bullet and just scraps their entire arsenal publically, it would be a huge success for them. The only way to unite the island - and I see that as a desirable outcome - is to get a majority both in the Assembly and in the South, and then to claim a mandate for revising the Constitution back to the original demand.

What on earth will you do with several million militant Paisley-worshippers, though? You can't pack them off to England!

jahamaa · Post by **jahamaa** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:50 am

nothing to say guys, just a very interesting thread and I want to be notified when more is added

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:51 am

I've checked my info and it is absolutely correct and exactly as I stated.

Post by **spot** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:55 am

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: I've checked my info and it is absolutely correct and exactly as I stated.Then I'd like to see your source, Sir. Northern Ireland is a not a province of Great Britain, but it is a part of the British Isles - as is Eire, come to that, the Republic of Ireland - and as such it can be perfectly accurately described as a British province, being both a Province, legally, and British, geographically.

Please point us to your authority, since I've pointed you to mine.

Bothwell · Post by **Bothwell** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:12 am

Interesting point about Paisley, he will not sit down witn Adams never ever. One of the more amusing sideshows in the run up to the election was Jeremy Paxman grilling Martin McGuinness about his mebership of the IRA. Paxo presented the evidence from both British and Irish intelligence that proved both he and Gerry Adams sit on the IRA army council and Marty still flat out denied it. Paxo then asked McGuinness if Gerry Adamas asking the IRA to abandon the armed struggle meant he had to talk into a mirror

I have no doubt that the IRA has comitted and in some cases brave individuals who are happy to sacrifice their lives in the cause. However the struggle now is more about the control of organised crime than political objectives.

Only the impetus of the people will solve this when they have finally had enough of this violence and I have to say I think it is happening.

In answer to the question about the Northern Ireland Assembly it is suspended at the moment I think. It has been going a few times but gets suspended every time the peace process halts. MP's elected in Northern Ireland get seats in the House of Commons although Sinn Fein have never taken thiers up. Interestingly Adams and co are paid a salary by the British Government and it's tax payers.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:09 am

spot wrote: That's plain ignorance for which, being foreign, you can be excused.

The United Kingdom of which you speak is an abbreviation for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You can see from that name how the parts interact.

England, Scotland and Wales make up the island of Great Britain.

The island of Ireland is also known as Lesser Britain. The two Islands are known collectively as Britain. Northern Ireland is a consequently a British province within the United Kingdom.

I refer you to The Isles, by Norman Davies, 1999, Macmillan, London ISBN 0 333 76370X, for further details, from which I have abstracted these details.Some of us here in Southern Ireland have being called West Britains by Nationalists Republicans aka Sinn Fein IRA and their ikes.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:12 am

Bothwell wrote: Interesting point about Paisley, he will not sit down witn Adams never ever. One of the more amusing sideshows in the run up to the election was Jeremy Paxman grilling Martin McGuinness about his mebership of the IRA. Paxo presented the evidence from both British and Irish intelligence that proved both he and Gerry Adams sit on the IRA army council and Marty still flat out denied it. Paxo then asked McGuinness if Gerry Adamas asking the IRA to abandon the armed struggle meant he had to talk into a mirror

I have no doubt that the IRA has comitted and in some cases brave individuals who are happy to sacrifice their lives in the cause. However the struggle now is more about the control of organised crime than political objectives.

Only the impetus of the people will solve this when they have finally had enough of this violence and I have to say I think it is happening.

In answer to the question about the Northern Ireland Assembly it is suspended at the moment I think. It has been going a few times but gets suspended every time the peace process halts. MP's elected in Northern Ireland get seats in the House of Commons although Sinn Fein have never taken thiers up. Interestingly Adams and co are paid a salary by the British Government and it's tax payers. hmmm, I know, you are right on this one.Bothwell

Post by **spot** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:22 am

capt_buzzard wrote: Some of us here in Southern Ireland have being called West Britains by Nationalists Republicans aka Sinn Fein IRA and their ikes.I've heard the Scots referred to as the North Britons, too. http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/britishisles/ shows the correct terminology for the components of the British Isles.

Just for completeness, the correct designations for the main components are that England and Scotland are Countries, Wales is a Principality, Northern Ireland is a Province, and both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland are Sovereign States.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed May 04, 2005 11:03 am

spot wrote: I've heard the Scots referred to as the North Britons, too. http://www.macs.hw.ac.uk/britishisles/ shows the correct terminology for the components of the British Isles.

Just for completeness, the correct designations for the main components are that England and Scotland are Countries, Wales is a Principality, Northern Ireland is a Province, and both the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland are Sovereign States.Try this, www.reform.org

Click on the flag

Post by **spot** » Wed May 04, 2005 11:10 am

capt_buzzard wrote: Try this, [url=http://www.reform.org]Click on the flag"Ireland should, as a sovereign state, recognise its close relationship with the peoples of England Scotland and Wales by re-joining the Commonwealth"? That's a brave notion, I'm very impressed. What range of reactions do you get locally to it?

jahamaa · Post by **jahamaa** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:51 pm

I am the typical ugly American and am unfamiliar with the situation and cast of players can you recommend source where I can go to get brought up to date?

This is very interesting to me. Our news media gives very very little info.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:29 pm

I'm pro Real IRA.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:19 pm

posted by david813

I'm pro Real IRA. Why?

Bothwell · Post by **Bothwell** » Thu May 05, 2005 1:38 am

GMC just wait til you get the reply.

Davids mates may be one member short soon given the guy just cahrged in the Omagh bombing.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 10:07 am

spot wrote: "Ireland should, as a sovereign state, recognise its close relationship with the peoples of England Scotland and Wales by re-joining the Commonwealth"? That's a brave notion, I'm very impressed. What range of reactions do you get locally to it?Unfortunately the Reform Movement, is 30 years late. But I have to hand it to them for trying. www.reform.org

Click on the flag...

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri May 06, 2005 1:25 pm

capt_buzzard............. Thanx for the interesting thread.

I should follow their politics more as I am mainly of Ulster Scot decent.

I have much family history on my family here in the US. They arrived in America around 1730 For many years they had opposed the tyranny of the English monarchs, who had denied them the right of freedom of worship or

participation in civic affairs.

Thanx again

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Fri May 06, 2005 1:37 pm

Bothwell wrote: GMC just wait til you get the reply.

Davids mates may be one member short soon given the guy just cahrged in the Omagh bombing.
Yippers Bothwell, They got the goods on him (Sean Hoey).

The murdering SOB.....................

Wonder where Davids reply is? Very curious to hear how he can defend this group (RIRA)

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:03 pm

Hi again BTS. I also come from Ulster/Scottish ancestry

Interesting that religious bigotery in Northern Ireland today is driving out people from there as the same problem caused our forefathers to leave Egland many years ago.

By the way, thanks for your comments on my post re American politics.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:31 pm

gmc wrote: posted by david813

Why?I believe in a united socialist Ireland. Real IRA has a political program I agree with. Freedom fighters must use all means necessary to achieve their goal. As the Americans did to oust the British. It is unfortunate violence affects civilian populations but, again, when you look at history it is filled with tragedy as self determination is sought and won. Those Real IRA members caught by the Occupation and imprisoned will be replaced quickly I'm sure.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 2:58 pm

David813 wrote: I'm pro Real IRA.Does President know that you are out?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:00 pm

David813 wrote: I believe in a united socialist Ireland. Real IRA has a political program I agree with. Freedom fighters must use all means necessary to achieve their goal. As the Americans did to oust the British. It is unfortunate violence affects civilian populations but, again, when you look at history it is filled with tragedy as self determination is sought and won. Those Real IRA members caught by the Occupation and imprisoned will be replaced quickly I'm sure.**** off pal. You know nothing about Ireland, only from your armchair

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:01 pm

spot wrote: I do think, Captain, that if the Army Council accepts the democritisation call of Sinn Fein, bites the bullet and just scraps their entire arsenal publically, it would be a huge success for them. The only way to unite the island - and I see that as a desirable outcome - is to get a majority both in the Assembly and in the South, and then to claim a mandate for revising the Constitution back to the original demand.

What on earth will you do with several million militant Paisley-worshippers, though? You can't pack them off to England!The IRA army council is Sinn Fein, their alter ego.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:04 pm

spot wrote: "Ireland should, as a sovereign state, recognise its close relationship with the peoples of England Scotland and Wales by re-joining the Commonwealth"? That's a brave notion, I'm very impressed. What range of reactions do you get locally to it?Some of do Spot.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:05 pm

BTS wrote: capt_buzzard............. Thanx for the interesting thread.

I should follow their politics more as I am mainly of Ulster Scot decent.

I have much family history on my family here in the US. They arrived in America around 1730 For many years they had opposed the tyranny of the English monarchs, who had denied them the right of freedom of worship or

participation in civic affairs.

Thanx againBTS, www.ulster-scots.co.uk

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:08 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: **** off pal. You know nothing about Ireland, only from your armchairSo unless one is a resident of said country then you could not possibly know anything at all about anything going on in that country. I'm a wee bit more in tune with international politics than you think. Real IRA is closest to my political view. Dismiss that as you wish. And I'm not in an armchair. I'm on a swivel chair with no back.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:13 pm

David813 wrote: So unless one is a resident of said country then you could not possibly know anything at all about anything going on in that country. I'm a wee bit more in tune with international politics than you think. Real IRA is closest to my political view. Dismiss that as you wish. And I'm not in an armchair. I'm on a swivel chair with no back.I live here for Chrsts sake. If you are really that interested in your Real IRA. Why aren't you over here. They need some cannon fodder

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:14 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: **** off pal. You know nothing about Ireland, only from your armchair

lol. Did Capt. Buzzard just swear? Whoa! That was unexpected!

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:16 pm

David813 wrote: So unless one is a resident of said country then you could not possibly know anything at all about anything going on in that country. I'm a wee bit more in tune with international politics than you think. Real IRA is closest to my political view. Dismiss that as you wish. And I'm not in an armchair. I'm on a swivel chair with no back.Who is their O/C?

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:17 pm

Jives wrote: lol. Did Capt. Buzzard just swear? Whoa! That was unexpected! i think that **** meant play off Jives.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:17 pm

Jives wrote: lol. Did Capt. Buzzard just swear? Whoa! That was unexpected! Sorry Jives.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:22 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: I live here for Chrsts sake. If you are really that interested in your Real IRA. Why aren't you over here. They need some cannon fodderWe have much work to do here. Inside the beast! I'd LOVE a trip to Ireland, but not Occupied Ireland. That would be like visiting East Jerusalem! I'm sorry if my political persuasion isn't to your liking. I have no reason or desire to aggravate you. I feel the same fire when I think of capitalism, imperialism, Israeli apartheid and racism. I'm really not a bad lad.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:22 pm

That's OK! I've just never seen you get that worked up before!

Issues concerning your homeland, fire you up, eh Capt? Well...who can blame you?

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:24 pm

Jives wrote: That's OK! I've just never seen you get that worked up before!

Issues concerning your homeland, fire you up, eh Capt? Well...who can blame you?I'm Irish:D

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:25 pm

I guess only Unionists are allowed to express opinions here! I'll vacate the thread. I have too much respect for Captain, regardless of his political leanings.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:26 pm

David813 wrote: We have much work to do here. Inside the beast! I'd LOVE a trip to Ireland, but not Occupied Ireland. That would be like visiting East Jerusalem! I'm sorry if my political persuasion isn't to your liking. I have no reason or desire to aggravate you. I feel the same fire when I think of capitalism, imperialism, Israeli apartheid and racism. I'm really not a bad lad. Who is the President of Republican Sinn Fein?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:27 pm

capt_buzzard wrote: Who is the President of Republican Sinn Fein?Gerry Adams

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Fri May 06, 2005 3:31 pm

David813 wrote: Gerry AdamsWrong mister.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat May 07, 2005 1:24 am

posted by 813

We have much work to do here. Inside the beast! I'd LOVE a trip to Ireland, but not Occupied Ireland. That would be like visiting East Jerusalem! I'm sorry if my political persuasion isn't to your liking. I have no reason or desire to aggravate you. I feel the same fire when I think of capitalism, imperialism, Israeli apartheid and racism. I'm really not a bad lad.

I think you should make an effort. A discussion with the fist of reasoned debate would do you the world of good.

capn buzzard

I see David Trimble has lost his seat and his party all but gone. What do you reckon to Ian Paisley? Orange marching season here seems like the heid bangers are either gaining strength or are in the last throes can't make up my mind which.

Incidentally david813 ever read Freidrish Engels "Condition of The Working Class in England"? As a good socialist I'm sure you have. Have a reread of what he says about the Irish, good honest racism and bigotry.

Bothwell · Post by **Bothwell** » Sat May 07, 2005 1:46 am

David i will have a stab at explaining why we feel like we do. The current paranoia in the USA because of the 911 attacks are nothing new to us, for decades the IRA have been blowing up civilians on our mainland, killing politicians etc. For all the duplicitous nature of Sinn fein/IRA ( I make no distinction) they have at least come to the negotiating table. They have understood that this is the only way to resolve the situation.

The Real Ira however are hell bent on continuing the armed struggle, the most compelling reason being that they have too much to lose in terms of criminal activity. So here you have the official Republicans sitting down at the negotiating table whilst these criminals continue their murderous regime.

You will find as little support for the Unionist extremists here as you will for the Real IRA. So even though the majotiry of republicans who support the cause you espouse to want no part of the Real IRA you think they should continue their campaign.

Yes you can support any cause you like and as I have said before I know that the provisional Ira had many comitted members who were willing to lay down heir lives for the cause, the Real Ira are not of this stripe, however your attitude may change if you actually had to live with the problem on a day to day basis.

IMO the Captain's opinions are more valid than most peoples because he lives with it day to day. Those of us who have seen the results of terrorist outrages first hand are by definition more emotional about these matters, however I for one would happily see the peace process work and the good people of Northern ireland live in peace. The Real Ira want no part of this and will therefore condemn the population to years more violence, neither the British or Irish governments will let them succeed. If as you say you support the cause for a united Ireland then I suggest you endorse the peace process and those who are working whithin it. Support for the Real Ira in Ireland is akin to supporting Colombian Drug taffikers or the mafia in the USA.

Post by **spot** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:23 am

I regret seeing David Trimble leave the stage of British Politics. I had hoped, in an optimistic flight of fancy, that the Conservative and Unionist Party might select him as their replacement leader now that Michael Howard is stepping down, but that was never really on the cards. He's one of the great peacemakers.

I don't suppose many people read his acceptance speech for his Nobel Peace Prize in 1998 - here's a couple of paragraphs:

"In one sense the singling of one or two persons, for a peace prize, must always seem something of an injustice. In Northern Ireland I could name scores of people, Unionist and nationalist, who deserve this prize far more than I do. Add to that the thousands of people who I do not know, but who have born witness, in their own lives, by carrying out what Wordsworth called, "those little nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and love".

"And since I know there are thousands of such heroes and heroines in Northern Ireland, how many more millions of peacemakers must there be in the front line of the fight for peace across the globe. People who stand in the front line for peace in all the places where there is no peace - Bosnia, Kosovo, Gaza, Cyprus, Rwanda, Angola.

"Naturally it is not possible to name each and everyone of those heroes and heroines who make up the huge host of peacemakers who, even as we speak, are at work for peace around the world.

"But even if it is not possible to name them we can note their presence on the peacelines around the world.

"Having said that, I am at the same time, anxious to allay any fears on your part that I might fail to pick up the medal or the cheque. The people of Northern Ireland are not a people to look a gift horse in the mouth. It is imperative that I take the medal home to Northern Ireland - if only to prove that I have been to Oslo.

"And the way politics work in Northern Ireland - if John Hume has a medal, it is important that I have one too."

- a great man, a sense of humor, someone who tried hard to break down barriers.