Dan Wentzel - Dan Wentzel on Bigotry in a Post-Proposition 8 World
Bigotry on the Bus
By Dan Wentzel
Monday, November 24, 2008; A17
A week after the election, I was riding the bus home in Santa Monica when we went past one of the many protests around the city against the narrow passage of Proposition 8, which amended the California constitution to eliminate marriage rights for an entire class of people.
The bus driver surveyed the situation and exclaimed, loud enough for the passengers to hear, "sodomites!" I've been so hurt and angry since my theoretically liberal and gay-friendly state passed Proposition 8 that I instantly replied, just as loudly, "Hey, I'm one of those sodomites, too!" Maybe I should have had a snappier comeback, but the driver was stunned. I'm guessing that nobody had ever stood up to him for saying something homophobic. The driver has a right to free speech and is entitled to his beliefs and opinions -- and his bigotry -- just like everyone else. However, he was a public employee in uniform, on the clock.
Once upon a time, I might have been too scared to say something, or I'd have just grumbled in silence. No more. In my anger, I wanted to immediately report the driver to the transit authority. But I found myself with a moral dilemma. What if this person was fired as a result of my complaint? These are tough economic times. Would he find another job? What if he was just having a really bad day? So for two days I thought about whether to report the driver.
I realized that in a post-Proposition 8 world, it is not okay for me to enable anyone's bigotry with my silence. If he had said the "n" word or the "k" word or something else offensive regarding someone's race, gender or religion, there would have been no question about whether to report him. But gay men and lesbians are no longer willing to be doormats. It is no longer acceptable for people to say bigoted and hateful things about gays or anyone else in front of me. This behavior has to stop now.
If the bigots thought they would slap down gay men and lesbians by passing Proposition 8, or if they thought it would end the gay civil rights movement, they were mistaken. I haven't seen the gay community this galvanized in a long time. The passage of Proposition 8 might be this generation's "Stonewall," the 1969 riot that began after an unprovoked police raid on a gay bar in Greenwich Village and that marked the start of the gay rights movement. If we can somehow harness the energy unleashed by California's Proposition 8 vote, we can achieve tremendous gains for us and for future generations of gay men and lesbians.
One of the most gratifying aspects of attending "No on 8" rallies was the number of straight demonstrators who showed up -- people who see this not just as an issue for gay men and lesbians but as a matter of everyone's civil rights.
So I finally stood up for myself and reported the driver to the transit authority. If someone were to say something racist, sexist or antisemitic, I would say something, even though I am white, male and non-Jewish. But I wonder, when a homophobic remark is made in a conversation among straight people, whether anyone is willing to say, "That's not appropriate and I find that offensive." I don't know, but I hope so.
I am sorry I had to report the bus driver, because I'm sorry that the incident happened. However, if I won't stand up for myself now, who else will stand up for me? The world has changed. No more Mr. Nice Gay. We are all in a post-Proposition 8 world now.
Comments?
Is Gay the new Black?
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Is Gay the new Black?
No, gay isn't the new black, IMO. Blacks are allowed to marry each other.
Gay is another step down the food chain to some folks, apparently. You would think that blacks and women and every other group that has ever had to fight for rights in america, would be a bit more supportive of an entire group being denied rights that they take for granted today. But that's not how we operate in the real world.
In the real world, in those secret places of our souls , we like knowing that folks who are different then us are not quite as good as us. That they are not as entitled as us. We like having someone to look down upon.
And while I sincerely hope that folks who feel gays are an abomination and deserve to not be accepted by society as equals, will be judged as harshly by their own version of god... I accept that in that secret place in my own soul, that makes me as bad as them...
The way I've always viewed it...I don't have to understand where gays are coming from, with their choice of partner. I just need to understand it is not my business.
But if I'm not willing to stand up for the cause, who do I ask to support me when someone decides it's best if women not be allowed to do something..
Gay is another step down the food chain to some folks, apparently. You would think that blacks and women and every other group that has ever had to fight for rights in america, would be a bit more supportive of an entire group being denied rights that they take for granted today. But that's not how we operate in the real world.
In the real world, in those secret places of our souls , we like knowing that folks who are different then us are not quite as good as us. That they are not as entitled as us. We like having someone to look down upon.
And while I sincerely hope that folks who feel gays are an abomination and deserve to not be accepted by society as equals, will be judged as harshly by their own version of god... I accept that in that secret place in my own soul, that makes me as bad as them...
The way I've always viewed it...I don't have to understand where gays are coming from, with their choice of partner. I just need to understand it is not my business.
But if I'm not willing to stand up for the cause, who do I ask to support me when someone decides it's best if women not be allowed to do something..
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
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Is Gay the new Black?
flopstock;1067955 wrote: No, gay isn't the new black, IMO. Blacks are allowed to marry each other. I'm pretty sure you know I mean that homosexual people are styling themselves as the downtrodden du jour.
flopstock wrote: Gay is another step down the food chain to some folks, apparently. You would think that blacks and women and every other group that has ever had to fight for rights in america, would be a bit more supportive of an entire group being denied rights that they take for granted today. But that's not how we operate in the real world.
In the real world, in those secret places of our souls , we like knowing that folks who are different then us are not quite as good as us. That they are not as entitled as us. We like having someone to look down upon.
And while I sincerely hope that folks who feel gays are an abomination and deserve to not be accepted by society as equals, will be judged as harshly by their own version of god... I accept that in that secret place in my own soul, that makes me as bad as them...
The way I've always viewed it...I don't have to understand where gays are coming from, with their choice of partner. I just need to understand it is not my business.
But if I'm not willing to stand up for the cause, who do I ask to support me when someone decides it's best if women not be allowed to do something..I don't disagree with you; I just think a better solution to the prob would be for the federal gov't to eliminate marriage as a legal institution altogether. I would support the same thing for my state & local governments.
My question is more along the lines of, well, quality I guess. Does the "plight" of the homosexual community of the same level of civil/human rights issues as the historical plight of black Americans? Is the homosexual community justified in drawing the parallel?
flopstock wrote: Gay is another step down the food chain to some folks, apparently. You would think that blacks and women and every other group that has ever had to fight for rights in america, would be a bit more supportive of an entire group being denied rights that they take for granted today. But that's not how we operate in the real world.
In the real world, in those secret places of our souls , we like knowing that folks who are different then us are not quite as good as us. That they are not as entitled as us. We like having someone to look down upon.
And while I sincerely hope that folks who feel gays are an abomination and deserve to not be accepted by society as equals, will be judged as harshly by their own version of god... I accept that in that secret place in my own soul, that makes me as bad as them...
The way I've always viewed it...I don't have to understand where gays are coming from, with their choice of partner. I just need to understand it is not my business.
But if I'm not willing to stand up for the cause, who do I ask to support me when someone decides it's best if women not be allowed to do something..
I don't disagree with you; I just think a better solution to the prob would be for the federal gov't to eliminate marriage as a legal institution altogether. I would support the same thing for my state & local governments.My question is more along the lines of, well, quality I guess. Does the "plight" of the homosexual community of the same level of civil/human rights issues as the historical plight of black Americans? Is the homosexual community justified in drawing the parallel?
Is Gay the new Black?
Only 23 views!
...
You know what?
I don't even care!
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You know what?
I don't even care!
Is Gay the new Black?
Accountable;1068013 wrote: I don't disagree with you; I just think a better solution to the prob would be for the federal gov't to eliminate marriage as a legal institution altogether. I would support the same thing for my state & local governments.
My question is more along the lines of, well, quality I guess. Does the "plight" of the homosexual community of the same level of civil/human rights issues as the historical plight of black Americans? Is the homosexual community justified in drawing the parallel?
The only distinction I can think of that marks Black Americans from the homosexual community is one of enslavement. This is not a minor distinction. The history of Black Americans is very different to that of homosexuals.
Homosexuals, initially, faced religious bigotry and mistrust and disgust from others mostly borne from religious views. Today, I find the main problem is that heterosexuals do not want to be 'hit' on by a gay person. They feel that a 'hit' implies that they are gay. Yet this shows that there is still a lot of discomfort about the concept of homosexuality.
To a certain extent, there was religious propoganda concerning black people as a whole, American or otherwise and this served to justify their enslavement. Nonetheless, I don't think the gay community can really draw a parallel with the Black Americans.
As for your comment concerning marriage. I disagree with you here. Marriage is a social institution which has a lot to merit it. It should be for the individuals to decide whether they get married or not and I see no reason for stipulating who can get married to whom. Neither do I believe that people should be forced to get married if it is not what they want to do.
However, I do have other considerations concerning marriage which I am planning to raise in another thread (if I ever get the time:rolleyes:).
My question is more along the lines of, well, quality I guess. Does the "plight" of the homosexual community of the same level of civil/human rights issues as the historical plight of black Americans? Is the homosexual community justified in drawing the parallel?
The only distinction I can think of that marks Black Americans from the homosexual community is one of enslavement. This is not a minor distinction. The history of Black Americans is very different to that of homosexuals.
Homosexuals, initially, faced religious bigotry and mistrust and disgust from others mostly borne from religious views. Today, I find the main problem is that heterosexuals do not want to be 'hit' on by a gay person. They feel that a 'hit' implies that they are gay. Yet this shows that there is still a lot of discomfort about the concept of homosexuality.
To a certain extent, there was religious propoganda concerning black people as a whole, American or otherwise and this served to justify their enslavement. Nonetheless, I don't think the gay community can really draw a parallel with the Black Americans.
As for your comment concerning marriage. I disagree with you here. Marriage is a social institution which has a lot to merit it. It should be for the individuals to decide whether they get married or not and I see no reason for stipulating who can get married to whom. Neither do I believe that people should be forced to get married if it is not what they want to do.
However, I do have other considerations concerning marriage which I am planning to raise in another thread (if I ever get the time:rolleyes:).
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Is Gay the new Black?
OpenMind;1068058 wrote: As for your comment concerning marriage. I disagree with you here. Marriage is a social institution which has a lot to merit it. Exactly, which is why there's no reason for the gov't to issue any law about its legality or illegality, and no reason to endorse or oppose it. It is a social institution.
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Is Gay the new Black?
K.Snyder;1068047 wrote: Only 23 views!
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You know what?
I don't even care!
And yet you post. :yh_think
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You know what?
I don't even care!
And yet you post. :yh_think
Is Gay the new Black?
Accountable;1068089 wrote: And yet you post. :yh_think
:yh_think
:yh_think
Is Gay the new Black?
Accountable;1068013 wrote: I'm pretty sure you know I mean that homosexual people are styling themselves as the downtrodden du jour.
I don't disagree with you; I just think a better solution to the prob would be for the federal gov't to eliminate marriage as a legal institution altogether. I would support the same thing for my state & local governments.
My question is more along the lines of, well, quality I guess. Does the "plight" of the homosexual community of the same level of civil/human rights issues as the historical plight of black Americans? Is the homosexual community justified in drawing the parallel?
Actually, that is how I understood you. I was in a rush here so probably didn't complete my thoughts as well as I'd have liked..
If the only issues that blacks had to overcome was the ability to marry one another, I'd say yeah, same struggle, blacks ahead. For hundreds of years, members of the gay community chose to live a heterosexual lifestyle in public and hid their issue. Blacks have never had that luxury. Blacks are black. Women are women. It's a visual thing that gays can fudge their way around.
So the struggles are not the same, IMO.
That doesn't mean that it should be okay to treat them any differently then we treat anyone else in this country. They are just as entitled to the rights and protections as the rest of us, IMO..... and that means they can marry any other adult they'd like without getting my approval.
BTW, I don't think the courts could handle the load from dissolved relationships if marriage was done away with. how would we assess rights to property, responsibilities for children and bills? Inheritance?
I don't disagree with you; I just think a better solution to the prob would be for the federal gov't to eliminate marriage as a legal institution altogether. I would support the same thing for my state & local governments.
My question is more along the lines of, well, quality I guess. Does the "plight" of the homosexual community of the same level of civil/human rights issues as the historical plight of black Americans? Is the homosexual community justified in drawing the parallel?
Actually, that is how I understood you. I was in a rush here so probably didn't complete my thoughts as well as I'd have liked..
If the only issues that blacks had to overcome was the ability to marry one another, I'd say yeah, same struggle, blacks ahead. For hundreds of years, members of the gay community chose to live a heterosexual lifestyle in public and hid their issue. Blacks have never had that luxury. Blacks are black. Women are women. It's a visual thing that gays can fudge their way around.
So the struggles are not the same, IMO.
That doesn't mean that it should be okay to treat them any differently then we treat anyone else in this country. They are just as entitled to the rights and protections as the rest of us, IMO..... and that means they can marry any other adult they'd like without getting my approval.
BTW, I don't think the courts could handle the load from dissolved relationships if marriage was done away with. how would we assess rights to property, responsibilities for children and bills? Inheritance?
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Is Gay the new Black?
K.Snyder;1068047 wrote: Only 23 views!
...
You know what?
I don't even care!
Why should you care how many views? Is this an offshoot of another thread?
...
You know what?
I don't even care!
Why should you care how many views? Is this an offshoot of another thread?
I expressly forbid the use of any of my posts anywhere outside of FG (with the exception of the incredibly witty 'get a room already' )posted recently.
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
Folks who'd like to copy my intellectual work should expect to pay me for it.:-6
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Is Gay the new Black?
flopstock;1068168 wrote: BTW, I don't think the courts could handle the load from dissolved relationships if marriage was done away with. how would we assess rights to property, responsibilities for children and bills? Inheritance?Then in the interest of saving tax dollars, I will support the equality of granting undeserved privileges for all that only most have enjoyed, rather than erasing undeserved privileges for all.
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Is Gay the new Black?
The history of the American"black" culture and the history of the American"gay" culture are two different experiences. But both cultures do suffer prejudice.
Not every black person looks black, and not every gay person looks gay. We can get ourselves into trouble when we jump to conclusions about a person just by the way they look when we first percieve them.
There is enough room for everyone in America no matter what their appearence or sexual preference as long as they are law abiding citizens and good neighbors.
Just MO.
Not every black person looks black, and not every gay person looks gay. We can get ourselves into trouble when we jump to conclusions about a person just by the way they look when we first percieve them.
There is enough room for everyone in America no matter what their appearence or sexual preference as long as they are law abiding citizens and good neighbors.
Just MO.
Life is a Highway. Let's share the Commute.
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Is Gay the new Black?
What if they are black and gay? :yh_think:yh_think:yh_think:yh_think:yh_think
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Is Gay the new Black?
I am just me but if an adult is in a caring loving consensual relationship with another adult who are we to judge? Is there so much hatred in the world that we cannot tolerate love in form not the same as our own?
I think some people just need someone to hate,they need to pour out their venom onto someone else so that they will feel better in their own miserable exsitence .
I think some people just need someone to hate,they need to pour out their venom onto someone else so that they will feel better in their own miserable exsitence .
Is Gay the new Black?
flopstock;1068169 wrote: Why should you care how many views? Is this an offshoot of another thread?
I don't care, really! <------I'm wondering if there should be a comma after "care"...
I don't care, really! <------I'm wondering if there should be a comma after "care"...
Is Gay the new Black?
Victoria;1068408 wrote: I am just me but if an adult is in a caring loving consensual relationship with another adult who are we to judge? Is there so much hatred in the world that we cannot tolerate love in form not the same as our own?
I think some people just need someone to hate,they need to pour out their venom onto someone else so that they will feel better in their own miserable exsitence .
that says it perfectly! :-6
I think some people just need someone to hate,they need to pour out their venom onto someone else so that they will feel better in their own miserable exsitence .
that says it perfectly!
:-6Is Gay the new Black?
I think you - people living in the United States - are in a very good situation regarding the rights of homosexuals. I don't know the american society, have never been to America but it always seemed to me a wise and liberal nation. Not very long time ago I visited such a stupid country as Poland, you know this bastard-country in Eastern Europe, and I was really astonished how intolerant Poles are when it comes to the issue of sexual orientation. My jewish grand-parents used to live in Poland before the world war two (that's why I'm curious how it looks like and visit there) and I must say I am really very compassionate and sad when I think how hard it must have been for them to live in such an intolerant and cruel country. Imagine - even today gays have no rights there, they cannot reveal their orientation, because otherwise, I mean - if they did it in public, they would be mocked, laughed at and persecuted. They would lose their job and be excluded from the community they live in. There are special programs on TV that are devoted only to persecuting and mocking gays. If someone says they support gays, they are immediately proclaimed the public enemy number one. So - to sum up I would say you should thank god (if it exists) that you live in the US, not in Poland. It applies first of all to those who are gay.
Is Gay the new Black?
Jester;1069124 wrote: Being black cant be helped, you are black if your black, practicing homosexuality is a choice, it is not an unchangeable factor like being black is. Practicing homosexuality is a behavior.
Which will be the bases of this entire argument until the end of time I think.
Which will be the bases of this entire argument until the end of time I think.
Is Gay the new Black?
The sexual drive is a strong one. Past repression by Christianity has shown that there are side effects which are not necessarily beneficial. Flagellation is one such side effect of sexual repression.
An individual cannot help their sexual preferences. Whether you like homosexuality or not, Jester, it is better out in the arena where it can be more easily controlled. Repression never serves society usefully.
An individual cannot help their sexual preferences. Whether you like homosexuality or not, Jester, it is better out in the arena where it can be more easily controlled. Repression never serves society usefully.
Is Gay the new Black?
Jester;1069811 wrote: I wholeheartedly and fully disagree, that sounds like phsycological hogwash to me.
One should have self control over proper behavior. Sodomy is not proper behavior. It's disease causing and distructive behavior both physically and psyhcologically.
What does your god want? Does he want peace on earth? Does he want people to be good? At what point does he begin to judge? Where are his priorities?
Is it skin colour, Is it sexuality, Is it car preference?
My understanding of god, is he wants peace on earth, he wants good people!
So, if this is what god is about, and I hope he is, cos otherwise all you religious people are scaring me - why would he judge anyone for any other reason than the goodness within them. Why would sexuality matter to him?
Good is good. Evil is evil!
One should have self control over proper behavior. Sodomy is not proper behavior. It's disease causing and distructive behavior both physically and psyhcologically.
What does your god want? Does he want peace on earth? Does he want people to be good? At what point does he begin to judge? Where are his priorities?
Is it skin colour, Is it sexuality, Is it car preference?
My understanding of god, is he wants peace on earth, he wants good people!
So, if this is what god is about, and I hope he is, cos otherwise all you religious people are scaring me - why would he judge anyone for any other reason than the goodness within them. Why would sexuality matter to him?
Good is good. Evil is evil!
Is Gay the new Black?
Jester;1069905 wrote: Ok your like my mother in law you get a three question limit!
God, wants his will to be done, peace on earth will come no matter what man does. Good comes from God, man is not good and can do no good apart from God, why would he expect it from man alone?
Gods will is that a beliver be filled with the Holy Spirit and will slowly be changed by the renewing of his mind in Jesus Christ, which is to bring every motive, thought, action and deed in to subjection to God. It's called Spiritual Maturity.
In part it involves a proper understanding of sexuality, and that proper understanding does not include homosexual activity.
As a matter of fact, homosexual activity is directly counter to Gods truth concerning sexuality. It is also in direct violation of his standard of design based on creation.
Did I answer all your questions?
No you did not answer my questions
And why does mother in-law only get 3 questions!!!
You did not answer my questions about gods view of good and evil. You did not answer why homosexuality is evil over all evils.
Oh by the way, Hi Jester
God, wants his will to be done, peace on earth will come no matter what man does. Good comes from God, man is not good and can do no good apart from God, why would he expect it from man alone?
Gods will is that a beliver be filled with the Holy Spirit and will slowly be changed by the renewing of his mind in Jesus Christ, which is to bring every motive, thought, action and deed in to subjection to God. It's called Spiritual Maturity.
In part it involves a proper understanding of sexuality, and that proper understanding does not include homosexual activity.
As a matter of fact, homosexual activity is directly counter to Gods truth concerning sexuality. It is also in direct violation of his standard of design based on creation.
Did I answer all your questions?
No you did not answer my questions
And why does mother in-law only get 3 questions!!! You did not answer my questions about gods view of good and evil. You did not answer why homosexuality is evil over all evils.
Oh by the way, Hi Jester
Is Gay the new Black?
Jester;1069913 wrote: As I have said many times to practice homoseuality is a choice no one is born that way, its not like being black or white, its a behavior. And I dont have to accept anyones miss behavior.
I wholeheartedly and fully disagree, that sounds like religious hogwash to me.
I wholeheartedly and fully disagree, that sounds like religious hogwash to me.
Is Gay the new Black?
Homosexuality is not a behaviour, but an innate sexual preference. No one can choose whether to be or not to be a gay. It's god who decides who are you going to date and this given tendency is unchangeable. That's why all the civilised people should accept homosexuals and respect their rights to build relationships, have families, adopt children and to express their sexuality to that extent that it is allowed in case of heterosexuals.
Is Gay the new Black?
Jester;1070335 wrote: And there you go.
The heart of disagreement. Isn't it great that in a free society we get to choose which opinion we want to have, and not have it forced down our throats?
I'm glad that we can agree on this point.
The homosexuals don't particularly want to force anything onto anyone else. They just want the right to a civil marriage for themselves. In this respect, they are resisting the views that other people have imposed upon them.
I agree with you that the Jewish and Christian principles do not permit homosexual marriages within their institutions.
In view of both the Old and New testament views of marriage, I would not expect either Jewish synagogues or Christian churches to agree to homosexual marriages.
The heart of disagreement. Isn't it great that in a free society we get to choose which opinion we want to have, and not have it forced down our throats?
I'm glad that we can agree on this point.
The homosexuals don't particularly want to force anything onto anyone else. They just want the right to a civil marriage for themselves. In this respect, they are resisting the views that other people have imposed upon them.
I agree with you that the Jewish and Christian principles do not permit homosexual marriages within their institutions.
In view of both the Old and New testament views of marriage, I would not expect either Jewish synagogues or Christian churches to agree to homosexual marriages.
Is Gay the new Black?
Jester;1070427 wrote: no you dont understand what it is they want, its not enough for the state to recognize a same sex marriage, they want to make it normal in all aspect sof society where it touched them.
While I was gone a teacher in one of the fairly local public schools went from one sex to another through surgical intervention and the school system had no choice but to introduce her/him/it to the class room as a person who changed thier sex. They did this with no process to the children or parents. One day he was a Mr and the next a Mrs.
Now If some one wants to do that go right ahead (I wont argue the merits of insurance paying for such rediculis surgeries here) but she/he/it did it to make a statement without regard to the children he/she/it teaches. Or parents for that matter.
Now you do realize the agenda that the homosexual are pushign is not just 'same sex marriages, it it is also the bisexual and transsexual agenda as well?
They want it 'normalized' and 'ligitimized', so that they can strut the way they want to be regardless of the affects on society and they want the right to prosecute anyone who disbelives they are not normal.
They key to thier success is procesuting those who do not believe the way they think they are. They want the church proper to be forced to recognize their marriage status.
And your a fool if you think they just want to be married like everybody else.
This is my view, and I am not trying to force it upon you. Please understand this. I know I would be wasting my time anyway.
Reading what you said about the schoolteacher made me stop and think a bit about how I felt if this occurred in a school my daughter may attend.
Firstly, the teacher has a right, in my view, to change sex if they want to. I don't see a problem with that and, of course, I would be willing to discuss the matter with my daughter if she needed to discuss it with me. But I would discuss it with her so that she can form her own opinion, not mine, or anyone else's. Likewise, I would not expect the aforesaid teacher to discuss it with her unless she is trained to do so and the discussion is undertaken with the objective of providing the child with the facts for forming her own opinion. If the teacher's opinions were forced upon her, then I would most certainly take issue with the school. At the end of the day, my daughter is going to be confronted with this matter and I would rather she was prepared spiritually and psychologically. One thing I would not encourage in her is prejudice. But I will encourage her to form her own opinions.
As for the rest of what you say may be so where you are. This has not been my experience of them. From what I have seen, they just want to be who they are. If a guy is effeminate, or a woman rather masculine, in their psychological makeup, then I would rather they behaved as such so that I at least know. There are many I have encountered who are otherwise quite normal human beings and I would not have known they were gay if I had not been told. If a guy makes a pass at me, I just tell him I'm not interested. If he persists, then I am insulted. For that matter, I expect the same modicum of decency to be shown by guys who make a pass at a woman. Quite often, I have seen heterosexual men behave disrespectfully towards women and more so than gays I have encountered.
Just the same, I would not expect any Christian church in this country or anywhere else in the world to marry homosexuals as it is against their creed. Neither would I expect them to be forced to do so by law. It would be synonymous to forcing Anglicans to pay worship in an Adventist church (or Catholics in a Protestant church).
While I was gone a teacher in one of the fairly local public schools went from one sex to another through surgical intervention and the school system had no choice but to introduce her/him/it to the class room as a person who changed thier sex. They did this with no process to the children or parents. One day he was a Mr and the next a Mrs.
Now If some one wants to do that go right ahead (I wont argue the merits of insurance paying for such rediculis surgeries here) but she/he/it did it to make a statement without regard to the children he/she/it teaches. Or parents for that matter.
Now you do realize the agenda that the homosexual are pushign is not just 'same sex marriages, it it is also the bisexual and transsexual agenda as well?
They want it 'normalized' and 'ligitimized', so that they can strut the way they want to be regardless of the affects on society and they want the right to prosecute anyone who disbelives they are not normal.
They key to thier success is procesuting those who do not believe the way they think they are. They want the church proper to be forced to recognize their marriage status.
And your a fool if you think they just want to be married like everybody else.
This is my view, and I am not trying to force it upon you. Please understand this. I know I would be wasting my time anyway.
Reading what you said about the schoolteacher made me stop and think a bit about how I felt if this occurred in a school my daughter may attend.
Firstly, the teacher has a right, in my view, to change sex if they want to. I don't see a problem with that and, of course, I would be willing to discuss the matter with my daughter if she needed to discuss it with me. But I would discuss it with her so that she can form her own opinion, not mine, or anyone else's. Likewise, I would not expect the aforesaid teacher to discuss it with her unless she is trained to do so and the discussion is undertaken with the objective of providing the child with the facts for forming her own opinion. If the teacher's opinions were forced upon her, then I would most certainly take issue with the school. At the end of the day, my daughter is going to be confronted with this matter and I would rather she was prepared spiritually and psychologically. One thing I would not encourage in her is prejudice. But I will encourage her to form her own opinions.
As for the rest of what you say may be so where you are. This has not been my experience of them. From what I have seen, they just want to be who they are. If a guy is effeminate, or a woman rather masculine, in their psychological makeup, then I would rather they behaved as such so that I at least know. There are many I have encountered who are otherwise quite normal human beings and I would not have known they were gay if I had not been told. If a guy makes a pass at me, I just tell him I'm not interested. If he persists, then I am insulted. For that matter, I expect the same modicum of decency to be shown by guys who make a pass at a woman. Quite often, I have seen heterosexual men behave disrespectfully towards women and more so than gays I have encountered.
Just the same, I would not expect any Christian church in this country or anywhere else in the world to marry homosexuals as it is against their creed. Neither would I expect them to be forced to do so by law. It would be synonymous to forcing Anglicans to pay worship in an Adventist church (or Catholics in a Protestant church).
Is Gay the new Black?
jimbo;1070463 wrote: forced down our throatsok ok i get it :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
I did not wish to know that.
Is Gay the new Black?
jimbo;1070487 wrote: very good :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
see you at the fg meet up sweetness :-4:-4
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl keep an open mind will you :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Always.:-6:-6
see you at the fg meet up sweetness :-4:-4
:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl keep an open mind will you :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Always.:-6:-6
Is Gay the new Black?
jimbo;1071245 wrote: i dont like the way you have used the term gay in this thread
YouTube - A bit of Fry and Laurie - The word "gay"
Excellent, Jimbo. I remember that sketch.
Gay still holds its original meanings though I don't come across any lasses called Gay anymore. This phrase seems to no longer apply - "A gay old man with an eye for the ladies".
Perhaps we should start a campaign to hike it back again to its former usage without the homosexual connotation. According to Dictionary.com, it is considered offensive if used with respect to specific individuals irrespective of whether they are homosexual or not.
YouTube - A bit of Fry and Laurie - The word "gay"
Excellent, Jimbo. I remember that sketch.
Gay still holds its original meanings though I don't come across any lasses called Gay anymore. This phrase seems to no longer apply - "A gay old man with an eye for the ladies".
Perhaps we should start a campaign to hike it back again to its former usage without the homosexual connotation. According to Dictionary.com, it is considered offensive if used with respect to specific individuals irrespective of whether they are homosexual or not.
Is Gay the new Black?
jimbo;1071559 wrote: what a fantastic,great,brilliant idea:-6:-6
you go into your local rough toughy type pub next time your in a happy mood and tell them your having a gay day
and if your still in one piece i will think about going into mine :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
In Leeds. You've gotta be joking.:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
you go into your local rough toughy type pub next time your in a happy mood and tell them your having a gay day
and if your still in one piece i will think about going into mine :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
In Leeds. You've gotta be joking.:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
Is Gay the new Black?
Jester;1071967 wrote: See now I thought sodomites were welcome everywhere in the enlightened land of the UK?:-2
This thread is about gays. Sodomy is applicable to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.
This thread is about gays. Sodomy is applicable to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.
Is Gay the new Black?
OpenMind;1071977 wrote: This thread is about gays. Sodomy is applicable to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.
Got a friend that is well into that and shes not gay
Got a friend that is well into that and shes not gay
I am nobody..nobody is perfect...therefore I must be Perfect!