We left the window open....................

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:01 pm

Two old ladies told me that in the old days (must be the good ole days eh? :rolleyes:) if a baby was born (not quite right :-2) they did not dress it / left the window open. Kindest way they said.

These two old ladies felt it was the right thing to do, not burden the system.

Your thoughts?

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:24 pm

fuzzy butt;834572 wrote: Well it was the right thing to do back then.

Donâ€™t kid yourself, history is still in the making and there are places where this still goes on.

In China thousands of little girls are abandoned each year and end in orphanages (if they are lucky). If a child in a orphanage is deemed as unsuitable to be adopted (usually due to poor health) they are put in a separate area where they are pretty much left to die.

http://www.channel4.com/fourdocs/archiv ... _room.html

â€˜Suffer the childrenâ€™?..... no problem there, they are still suffering all around the world.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:28 pm

I don't have a problem with it. The technology to help deformed kids didn't exist then and that makes a huge difference. It was better than making the kid live in the attic for the rest of its life. People do what they have to do at the time.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:55 pm

Geeze Buttercup,

That is an interesting question. It's easy NOT to become pregnant with all the birth control available and knowledge shared with the younger generation as to how the human body works. With the exceptions of medical reasons , rape, or some accidents happening ,there is no reason why women should get pregnant if they don't wish to....

I watched the movie recommended by RJ called "Perfume...The Story of a Murder." It was a fabulous, but disturbing movie, for me, that took place in 18th century Paris. Pregnant women, pregnant by rape or lack of knowledge or birth control, were giving birth in the streets and leaving the babies to die in the gutters. Only those babies who were the strongest survived....the others lived in misery.

Did anyone watch the movie "The Joy Luck Club" by Amy Tan? Most of the Chinese girls were sold into slavery or married off to a Lord for money or for hopes that they would survive. Even though the girls weren't deformed, they weren't wanted by society and would either die or become a prostitute.

So, I think that "that was then, this is now....."

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:58 pm

And it is still happening around the world. Girls as young as 5 sold into sex trades. Really gross what some parents will do for a few dollars. Sell their own child into a trade that has no regard for them at all.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:15 pm

It is my understanding that in China, girl babies are still often killed at birth just for being girls. The people are so ignorant they fail to realize without girls there would be none of their precious boys.

I disassociate that from killing a child horribly deformed however.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:35 pm

My BIL lucked out as he and his wife adopted two girls from China that were abandoned at birth for being girls. They even went back for a second daughter after they found out that his wife was pregnant. They are now the proud parents of two little girls from China and two little boys they had naturally.:-6

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:38 pm

qsducks;834777 wrote: My BIL lucked out as he and his wife adopted two girls from China that were abandoned at birth for being girls. They even went back for a second daughter after they found out that his wife was pregnant. They are now the proud parents of two little girls from China and two little boys they had naturally.:-6

Wow, that's lovely Ducks.....It give me hope....

SuzyB · Post by **SuzyB** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:42 pm

I remember my Nan telling me that she was 1 of 16, but 9 died, Nan said she remembered as a young girl coming across a shoe box and when she opened it a pair of twins that died were in there.

Things were just different in those days

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:47 pm

Oh, that breaks my heart:-1.

cars · Post by **cars** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:53 pm

buttercup;834493 wrote: Two old ladies told me that in the old days (must be the good ole days eh? :rolleyes:) if a baby was born (not quite right :-2) they did not dress it / left the window open. Kindest way they said.

These two old ladies felt it was the right thing to do, not burden the system.

Your thoughts?
Really provocative issue. There could/must have been & probably likely were degrees of "not quite right" for leaving the window open.

Depending on the severitity of the "not quite right", the women felt that more important then not only burdening the system, as they mentioned it was also actually kinder for the child itself! Not having to face a tremendous handycap for their entire life. They may have chosen to leave the window open for say a child born without legs, or arms.

Today, people are fortunate to have many more options for "not quite right"

children then in years gone by. Aren't we lucky we live in the world of today.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:57 pm

SuzyB;834797 wrote: I remember my Nan telling me that she was 1 of 16, but 9 died, Nan said she remembered as a young girl coming across a shoe box and when she opened it a pair of twins that died were in there.

Things were just different in those days

Hello Suzy:-4

Wow, 16 children...can't even imagine how difficult their lives were....imagine bodies in a shoe box...makes you want to cry.....

SuzyB · Post by **SuzyB** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:00 pm

Kathy Ellen;834838 wrote: Hello Suzy:-4

Wow, 16 children...can't even imagine how difficult their lives were....imagine bodies in a shoe box...makes you want to cry.....

My Nan is 94 now, she really does tell some good stories, her mind and memory is better than mine..........mind you that isn't to hard nowadays :wah:

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:28 pm

RedGlitter;834740 wrote: The people are so ignorant they fail to realize without girls there would be none of their precious boys.

If the Chinese social system is like the Indian in terms of marriage and dowry systems, then for poorer families in particular the birth of a daughter is a financial disaster. It means in something like fourteen years they are going to have to give an enormous sum of money to a husband. It's going to mean serious hardship.

I'm not saying it's a great system or anything like that, but it isn't ignorance.

Wry thought for all of us in our young Western civilisations: their system has been in stable existence for longer than Christian marriage has existed by thousands of years...

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:03 pm

Clodhopper;834873 wrote: If the Chinese social system is like the Indian in terms of marriage and dowry systems, then for poorer families in particular the birth of a daughter is a financial disaster. It means in something like fourteen years they are going to have to give an enormous sum of money to a husband. It's going to mean serious hardship.

I'm not saying it's a great system or anything like that, but it isn't ignorance.

Wry thought for all of us in our young Western civilisations: their system has been in stable existence for longer than Christian marriage has existed by thousands of years...

Hi Clod:-6

Have you ever watched the video "Joy Luck Club?" It' s a beautiful story and makes me cry everytime I watch it....

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:13 pm

Hi Kathy Ellen

No, I haven't, but I picked up the gist of it on the thread. I take the point. However, there are stories of abuse in Christian marriage. Violence... we all know them. We're not perfect either.

And I suspect Redglitter's comment was born out of sincere sympathy for those poor girls, but I feel that dismissing ancient systems that have served their societies well for thousands of years as ignorance is a little unfair.

Kathy Ellen · Post by **Kathy Ellen** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:21 pm

Clodhopper;834909 wrote: Hi Kathy Ellen

No, I haven't, but I picked up the gist of it on the thread. I take the point. However, there are stories of abuse in Christian marriage. Violence... we all know them. We're not perfect either.

And I suspect Redglitter's comment was born out of sincere sympathy for those poor girls, but I feel that dismissing ancient systems that have served their societies well for thousands of years as ignorance is a little unfair.

Hi Clod,

Sorry...just mentioned that movie because I thought it was a beautiful movie full of events that helped women in China move foward in difficult circumstances. If you watch it please let me know what you think of it.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:34 pm

China has only had this practice for how long? 20 years or so? Throwing girls away like they are trash. The one child per family has sown what? And the way they handle it is even more disturbing.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:38 pm

Clodhopper;834909 wrote: Hi Kathy Ellen

No, I haven't, but I picked up the gist of it on the thread. I take the point. However, there are stories of abuse in Christian marriage. Violence... we all know them. We're not perfect either.

And I suspect Redglitter's comment was born out of sincere sympathy for those poor girls, but I feel that dismissing ancient systems that have served their societies well for thousands of years as ignorance is a little unfair.

Clodhopper, are you seriously suggesting that killing female infants is an acceptable way to "serve" your society? You feel my statement is "unfair" yet you support the killing of any babies due to their gender? If I understand you correctly, we can just part company now because that's not even something I'm going to argue about.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:41 pm

qsducks;834945 wrote: China has only had this practice for how long? 20 years or so? Throwing girls away like they are trash. The one child per family has sown what? And the way they handle it is even more disturbing.

I can't say firsthand how long but I do believe it's been going on longer than 20 years, gsducks. Are you familiar with Chinese astrology? I'm a Fire Horse (1966) Girls born as Fire Horses were routinely killed because that sign was considered so unlucky. It was bad enough to birth a *girl* but to have one so temperamental as to be born a Fire Horse was unacceptable.

So this murder is not done just as a means of birth control. It's purely gender control and yes, Clod, other ignorance.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:42 pm

qsducks: Ah, I see. Thanks. Modern attempt at birth control (which is probably not a bad idea in itself) collides with existing ancient system? Gosh. You can see how it puts the pressure on any poor family with a firstborn daughter and no chance of recouping anything through a younger son...

tniou2 · Post by **tniou2** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:42 pm

so I guess with this discussion I should not pursue buying a chic?..........damn the luck:-3

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:44 pm

Clodhopper;834873 wrote: If the Chinese social system is like the Indian in terms of marriage and dowry systems, then for poorer families in particular the birth of a daughter is a financial disaster. It means in something like fourteen years they are going to have to give an enormous sum of money to a husband. It's going to mean serious hardship.

I'm not saying it's a great system or anything like that, but it isn't ignorance.

Wry thought for all of us in our young Western civilisations: their system has been in stable existence for longer than Christian marriage has existed by thousands of years...

Your point is what? That their system of ignorance is older than western marriage? So what? That's like saying footbinding makes sense if you want a husband because it was in existence for how many dynasties?

I am not persuaded by this.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:45 pm

So I'm the rabbit, what would that mean? From living with my own fire sign (daughter), they can be quite tempermental, but I guess that is another thread. What is the ratio over in china on men vs women?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:47 pm

Here is some info on gendercide from gendercide.org if anyone is interested:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:48 pm

RedGlitter;834949 wrote: Clodhopper, are you seriously suggesting that killing female infants is an acceptable way to "serve" your society? You feel my statement is "unfair" yet you support the killing of any babies due to their gender? If I understand you correctly, we can just part company now because that's not even something I'm going to argue about.

No. They shouldn't do it under theirs! But poor and desperate people do desperate things sometimes. No welfare state or pension scheme to help them in their old age. I'm just saying their system has worked for a very long time and dismissing that system as ignorant is unfair to it.

tniou2 · Post by **tniou2** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:52 pm

I do know the ratio of women to men in Russia it's 10 women for every man due to the slaughter of Russian men during world war 2....so I'm living in the wrong country right?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:52 pm

Well, we can disagree on the ignorance part.

Perhaps if they worked to change their cultural and social aspects, the babies would not be killed. I'd like to believe "poor China" and "poor India" but I cannot. I do agree about desperate people/times however. I just say it's time to change the cause of the despair.

qsducks · Post by **qsducks** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:53 pm

and possibly the wrong century.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:00 pm

qsducks;834958 wrote: So I'm the rabbit, what would that mean? From living with my own fire sign (daughter), they can be quite tempermental, but I guess that is another thread. What is the ratio over in china on men vs women?

I think rabbits are pretty safe, not sure though.

"In 2005, the mainland China sex ratio at birth stood at 118 males to 100 females, having already increased from 108:100 in 1981 to 111:100 in 1990. It is substantially above the natural baseline which ranges from 103:100 to 107:100. By the year 2020, there will be 30 million more men than women, according to a report by the State Population and Family Planning Commission."

From story: http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=34

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:03 pm

Redglitter: Is footbinding common practice in China today? No. In other words this ignorant many thousand year old system can and clearly has adapted. qsducks pointed out that it's had government sponsored birth control loaded onto it - presumably since Mao - which puts a lot of pressure on the poorest families. I don't condone the killing of baby girls anywhere, but I repeat that dismissing Indian and Chinese civilisations is unfair to them.

I can imagine Indian and Chinese families looking at reports of our kids running amok with lethal weapons in schools and on the streets and thinking we are the ignorant ones. It would be tricky to argue with them, though I'd give a damned good try.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:06 pm

Sorry - posts crossed.

It's 2:16 so I must sleep, but will come back to this if required.

jennyswan · Post by **jennyswan** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:25 am

I can't condone in any way the killing or leaving to die of any child for any reason and I hope anybody who would do such a thing should rot in hell for eternity. I'm not a hugely religious person but I do believe strongly in the right to life no matter who you are and how perfect or imperfect you may be.

I have met families over the years with handicapped or severely handicapped children and they said that the child has brought so much joy to their lives that they are so glad they have them.

I was born 4 months premature, weighing under two pounds and I'm certainly glad that they didn't just leave me to die.

As for the chinese and their baby daughters, I think this is horrendous! It makes me sick that in so many countries people use poverty and depravation as an excuse for murder. It still doesn't change the fact that it is murder!! Cold blooded and intentional. If they don't want to have a baby girl then they should remain celebate as that is the only way of making sure that won't happen.

There was a lot of things that happened in the 'olden days' just because things were easier but just because things are 'easier' it certainly does not make them right. Not in my mind anyway.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:32 am

[QUOTE=RedGlitter;834740]It is my understanding that in China, girl babies are still often killed at birth just for being girls. The people are so ignorant they fail to realize without girls there would be none of their precious boys.QUOTE]

What amazed me more than anything when I was in China adopting my daughter, was the number of boys that were in orphanages. Because of the partially true and partially over stated view on girls in China, it is true that more girls would be abandoned than boys, however the one child policy is not gender specific, if the second child is a boy, he to is abandoned.

I never really considered this, and many of the other parents that were over adopting daughters as well did not either. I just never thought there would be that many boys available for adoption in China.

The problem therefore, is that although there is a global awareness of the number of girls being abandoned over there, there is little awareness of the number of boys, and the vast majority of adoptions that take place are girls being placed with new families, where the boys are seldom adopted and grow up in institutions without homes.

Things are slowing changing as a couple of years ago China altered the one child policy to the following:

If the first child born is a girl, you can have a second child.

Although this helps the situation somewhat, the issue remains that if the second child is a girl also, it is the second child that get abandoned in an attempt to have a boy.

Having boys is still preferable in the country side where they are required by families for labour help on the farms, but in the cities girls are becoming more preferable due to government cash incentives to have girls (recognizing the gap between genders). In major cities where it is expensive to live, girls are now preferred as there is assistance in housing provided by the government.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:34 am

Chinese Embassy

40 Ailesbury Road,

Ballsbridge,

Dublin 4,

Ireland

Tel:00353-1-2691707 or 2601119

The Website can be googled on Chinese Embassy Eire.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:49 am

jennyswan;835033 wrote: It makes me sick that in so many countries people use poverty and depravation as an excuse for murder.
Me too. And now they're trying to make it part of our healthcare system.

:-1

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:19 am

Accountable;835102 wrote: Me too. And now they're trying to make it part of our healthcare system.

:-1

???? Trying to make "what" part of your healthcare system?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:57 am

Clodhopper;835105 wrote: ???? Trying to make "what" part of your healthcare system?

Killing babies. I find it amazing that most of the outraged people in this thread would be saying "So what?" if these Chinese people had abortions rather than killing after the child took breath.

So really what we're outraged about is the procrastination.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:58 am

buttercup;834493 wrote: Two old ladies told me that in the old days (must be the good ole days eh? :rolleyes:) if a baby was born (not quite right :-2) they did not dress it / left the window open. Kindest way they said.

These two old ladies felt it was the right thing to do, not burden the system.

Your thoughts?

In the old days there wasn't any system to burden. If you were poor you starved or ended up on the parish or in a workhouse. Brutal reality is if you have a baby that isn't likely to live for long or will never be able to support itself and you don't have the resources letting it die might be the only choice. Same back in the days when having a baby out of wedlock made you a social pariah- abandoning a baby might be the only choice you feel you have. Unless you've been there reserve judgement.

posted by red glitter

It is my understanding that in China, girl babies are still often killed at birth just for being girls. The people are so ignorant they fail to realize without girls there would be none of their precious boys.

Our own culture still values boys over girls. That things have changed is due to all those feminist activists that were once regarded as a danger to society threatening the very fabric of it with their calls for equality. Leaving politics aside take a look at some of the hostility directed at helen clinton just because she's female.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:15 am

Accountable;835140 wrote: Killing babies. I find it amazing that most of the outraged people in this thread would be saying "So what?" if these Chinese people had abortions rather than killing after the child took breath.

So really what we're outraged about is the procrastination.

Good point.

jennyswan · Post by **jennyswan** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:40 am

Just for the record I totally don't agree with abortion either, but people must make decisions for that like themselves because they are the ones to keep things like that on their own conscious.

In the old days there wasn't any system to burden. If you were poor you starved or ended up on the parish or in a workhouse. Brutal reality is if you have a baby that isn't likely to live for long or will never be able to support itself and you don't have the resources letting it die might be the only choice. Same back in the days when having a baby out of wedlock made you a social pariah- abandoning a baby might be the only choice you feel you have. Unless you've been there reserve judgement.

Even if the child did starve to death at least you were given the right to starve to death and that wasn't taken away from you who's decision it never was to make in the first place. If people were to reserve judgement all the time about the action of others the world would be even worse then it is now. Abandoning a child on a parish doorstep still gave it a chance of life. It might have not been the best or most enjoyable life but my personal opinion is that everybody deserves the right to try out the life once conceived.

These are my personal thoughts on the matter and naturally everybody is entitled to their own.

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:42 am

You know having been someone who has made that decision (to terminate a child because of the posibility of abnormality )all i can say is, it's not an easy decision .:-5

I know some of you think of it as Murder and yeah you are probably right . I made my decision at a time when it was right for me ...however i still regret it and if the situation arose again ...NO.. i wouldn't do it again.

I guess it must have been a whole lot tougher all thoses years ago .

jennyswan · Post by **jennyswan** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:55 am

pantsonfire321@aol.com;835381 wrote: You know having been someone who has made that decision (to terminate a child because of the posibility of abnormality )all i can say is, it's not an easy decision .:-5

I know some of you think of it as Murder and yeah you are probably right . I made my decision at a time when it was right for me ...however i still regret it and if the situation arose again ...NO.. i wouldn't do it again.

I guess it must have been a whole lot tougher all thoses years ago .

I'm not judging you Pants. I've never been in the situation so I really can't. I guess I just have an extreme opinion about it and my irish catholic background has possibly influenced that too. I think at the end of our days (and these are only my beliefs) we will all look back on our lives and wish we had done certain things differently. I know I have a few things too that I regret but you just can't change them, just learn from them.

pantsonfire321@aol.com · Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:01 am

jennyswan;835397 wrote: I'm not judging you Pants. I've never been in the situation so I really can't. I guess I just have an extreme opinion about it and my irish catholic background has possibly influenced that too. I think at the end of our days (and these are only my beliefs) we will all look back on our lives and wish we had done certain things differently. I know I have a few things too that I regret but you just can't change them, just learn from them.

Hey no problem here hun :-6. We're all entitled to an opinion and i understand if what i have just said upsets anyone ....i hope it doesn't .

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:04 am

pantsonfire321@aol.com;835381 wrote: You know having been someone who has made that decision (to terminate a child because of the posibility of abnormality )all i can say is, it's not an easy decision .:-5

I know some of you think of it as Murder and yeah you are probably right . I made my decision at a time when it was right for me ...however i still regret it and if the situation arose again ...NO.. i wouldn't do it again.

I guess it must have been a whole lot tougher all thoses years ago .

sympathy. I know from my own life how difficult those decisions can be.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:30 am

I just want people to realize there's no difference - none at all - between abortion and leaving a child with the window open.