RedGlitter;754662 wrote: It's that gun that helps guarantee peaceful law abiding citizens. The only intent should be self defense.
The devil's in that should - it should be but in a large number of cases it isn't. Having guns on the street is no guarantee of peace or of citizen abiding by the law.
RedGlitter;754662 wrote: If the nutter has a gun, whether bigger than mine or not, I certainly want to make sure I have something at my disposal.
i wish I recalled the vitals on this but quite a few years back in a restaurant here in the US, some weirdo opened fire on the diners. There was a young woman there barely past the age to carry, and she was eating there with her family. She shot him. I believe he died, can't remember. But how many more innocent people would have been shot or killed if she hadn't been there to take down the criminal?
For every case that turns out like that there dozens that go the other way. Get the guns off the streets and the number of gun deaths will fall.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
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Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Bryn Mawr;754810 wrote: The devil's in that should - it should be but in a large number of cases it isn't. Having guns on the street is no guarantee of peace or of citizen abiding by the law.It's no guarantee of war, either. I choose trust.
Bryn Mawr wrote: For every case that turns out like that there dozens that go the other way. Get the guns off the streets and the number of gun deaths will fall.Get the drugs off the streets and the number of drug deaths will fall.
Get the knives off the streets and the number of knife deaths will fall.
Get tall buildings off the streets and the number of fall deaths will fall.
Get the sidewalks off the streets and the number of streetwalkers will ... no, that one doesn't work.
Get the scissors off the streets and the number of children running with them will fall, and they won't get hurt when they do ... because they won't be holding scissors.
Bryn Mawr wrote: For every case that turns out like that there dozens that go the other way. Get the guns off the streets and the number of gun deaths will fall.Get the drugs off the streets and the number of drug deaths will fall.
Get the knives off the streets and the number of knife deaths will fall.
Get tall buildings off the streets and the number of fall deaths will fall.
Get the sidewalks off the streets and the number of streetwalkers will ... no, that one doesn't work.
Get the scissors off the streets and the number of children running with them will fall, and they won't get hurt when they do ... because they won't be holding scissors.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Accountable;755027 wrote: It's no guarantee of war, either. I choose trust.
Get the drugs off the streets and the number of drug deaths will fall.
Get the knives off the streets and the number of knife deaths will fall.
Get tall buildings off the streets and the number of fall deaths will fall.
Get the sidewalks off the streets and the number of streetwalkers will ... no, that one doesn't work.
Get the scissors off the streets and the number of children running with them will fall, and they won't get hurt when they do ... because they won't be holding scissors.
Totally agree with the first two
Get the drugs off the street and the crime level would drop like a stone.
Get the drugs off the streets and the number of drug deaths will fall.
Get the knives off the streets and the number of knife deaths will fall.
Get tall buildings off the streets and the number of fall deaths will fall.
Get the sidewalks off the streets and the number of streetwalkers will ... no, that one doesn't work.
Get the scissors off the streets and the number of children running with them will fall, and they won't get hurt when they do ... because they won't be holding scissors.
Totally agree with the first two
Get the drugs off the street and the crime level would drop like a stone.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755098 wrote: Becasue we dont have enough police to get in my home fast enough in an emergent situation. Because if the policeman who shows up is also a bafoon I can still defend my home and my family, because, I am a wanted man by eight countries and safe only in the US, but becasue my country has a sieve for borders, I'm not very safe unless I can carry concealed... there could be lots of reasons.
I admire the comment about the musket it was unique, but it lacks subtance since the government at the time also just had muskets
The first two address the question as to whether you should have weapons in the home, not whether you should carry weapons in the street. The last one is an absolute example of why you shouldn't.
ETA That last one leads to two inevitable extensions :-
I am a mafiosi and I'm under threat from eight other families.
I am a mafiosi and I'm wanted by the police in every State.
Do you really want to arm criminals against the police?
I admire the comment about the musket it was unique, but it lacks subtance since the government at the time also just had muskets
The first two address the question as to whether you should have weapons in the home, not whether you should carry weapons in the street. The last one is an absolute example of why you shouldn't.
ETA That last one leads to two inevitable extensions :-
I am a mafiosi and I'm under threat from eight other families.
I am a mafiosi and I'm wanted by the police in every State.
Do you really want to arm criminals against the police?
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755424 wrote: I know several people who were 'captured' in foriegn countries and released and told never to return, later that coutnry issued orders to their military to sieze them if able. I would say those persons have a right to defend themselves individually if that country sends armed men in clandestine fashion for thier capture.
They are not mafioso, they are now private citizens who once worked for a legal government agency and they have every right to protect themselves.
Where is my home? Where is my livelihood, where is my family? Would you deny me the right to extend my protection outside of a geographic area if i were prtecting my home in the sense of my people and ability to provide for them?
There are armed criminals in abundance in the San Francisco Bay Area, I work in outlying areas at night, in some places even the police tell me to stay away from. I have acted to protect my crew and my equipment on a few occasions, once by 2x4 and once by brandishing and firing a 45 auto. I could have easily killed them both. I chose on both occasions to phsyically leave a life long impression on the choice they made to rob and harm me and my crew. In every instance the police was not able to respond in time. I would not be alive right now had I not had the ability to respond by returning fire, and even then I restrained myself from killing them.
As with your wanted in eight countries, my mafioso were there purely as an example.
I think were so far apart on this one we'll have to agree to disagree - I hold that you're put in your position of danger because of the prevailing gun culture whilst you see the only solution to that danger as maintaining the right to bear arms. I cannot see any resolution from there.
They are not mafioso, they are now private citizens who once worked for a legal government agency and they have every right to protect themselves.
Where is my home? Where is my livelihood, where is my family? Would you deny me the right to extend my protection outside of a geographic area if i were prtecting my home in the sense of my people and ability to provide for them?
There are armed criminals in abundance in the San Francisco Bay Area, I work in outlying areas at night, in some places even the police tell me to stay away from. I have acted to protect my crew and my equipment on a few occasions, once by 2x4 and once by brandishing and firing a 45 auto. I could have easily killed them both. I chose on both occasions to phsyically leave a life long impression on the choice they made to rob and harm me and my crew. In every instance the police was not able to respond in time. I would not be alive right now had I not had the ability to respond by returning fire, and even then I restrained myself from killing them.
As with your wanted in eight countries, my mafioso were there purely as an example.
I think were so far apart on this one we'll have to agree to disagree - I hold that you're put in your position of danger because of the prevailing gun culture whilst you see the only solution to that danger as maintaining the right to bear arms. I cannot see any resolution from there.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755440 wrote: Bryn its a great discussion, and I recognize your points. I'd like it to be 2x4 agaisnt 2x4, I think it would be great to go back to that. Maybe if we had not gone this road in the first place we'd not be here now.
Our nation was born in battle, its a waring nation it alwasy has been and it will be. Im not saying your wrong at all, you bring up valid points, but I need the ability to defend myself, its justifed because the threat is real.
Now, I have been hand to hand in mortal combat, its a hard thing to kill a man without a gun, it is, and there is just no explaination, it is extremely physically demanding, it is emotionaly disturbing and it haunts for your entire life. (if you have a conscience) If we did not have guns, we would have very few deaths related to guns, thats a given.
So please dont stop the discussion, keep bringing your points, this is one type of argument that I think discussion brings out more things to consider, but your furstration is well noted my friend.
Head + wall = sore
My major frustration is that I cannot see any route from the one to the other. Only that the first step has to be a move away from the concept of guns being an enshrined right of every man.
Our nation was born in battle, its a waring nation it alwasy has been and it will be. Im not saying your wrong at all, you bring up valid points, but I need the ability to defend myself, its justifed because the threat is real.
Now, I have been hand to hand in mortal combat, its a hard thing to kill a man without a gun, it is, and there is just no explaination, it is extremely physically demanding, it is emotionaly disturbing and it haunts for your entire life. (if you have a conscience) If we did not have guns, we would have very few deaths related to guns, thats a given.
So please dont stop the discussion, keep bringing your points, this is one type of argument that I think discussion brings out more things to consider, but your furstration is well noted my friend.
Head + wall = sore
My major frustration is that I cannot see any route from the one to the other. Only that the first step has to be a move away from the concept of guns being an enshrined right of every man.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755600 wrote: I would give up my right to carry concealed if I knew the government had my best interest in mind and they were capable and willing to protect me and my family bodily at a moments notice regardless of which political party was in office.
Consider it in this light: I consider it one of those basic ideologies of life that I be protected, I have to actually 'feel' reasonably protected, and I have to have my family reasonsbly protected. Now I don't care really how that happens, so long as it does. I am fully willing to self limit my rights if those conditions are met.
Can you discuss how I can do that in America without weapons? If we could take them away from all criminals I'd be part way willing to give mine up, however I still want some sort of reasonable gurantee that 20 years into the future my religious views arent declared against the law leaving me without a way to defend myself.
I cannot discuss how it would happen in America as I do not know enough about American society.
Here in the UK? In my life i have seen only one gun on the street (plenty in gun clubs and at shooting competitions). I reported the bastard and he was arrested - I had the satisfaction of knowing I had probably saved a life and that he was going down for at least five years.
I admit, criminals here do, sometimes, carry guns and they are used in inter-gang turf wars. Firstly, if you are in a criminal gang that settles their arguments with guns then you can have no complaints at being shot - they only rarely spill over into the general population. Secondly, the number of domestics involving guns and the number of random shootings is way less over here.
I maintain that the way to cut down the number of deaths amongst the general population (I deliberately exclude the criminal elements and, sadly, the police form this but they both insist on using guns) is to take stricter measures to prevent access to guns - not to make access easier.
Consider it in this light: I consider it one of those basic ideologies of life that I be protected, I have to actually 'feel' reasonably protected, and I have to have my family reasonsbly protected. Now I don't care really how that happens, so long as it does. I am fully willing to self limit my rights if those conditions are met.
Can you discuss how I can do that in America without weapons? If we could take them away from all criminals I'd be part way willing to give mine up, however I still want some sort of reasonable gurantee that 20 years into the future my religious views arent declared against the law leaving me without a way to defend myself.
I cannot discuss how it would happen in America as I do not know enough about American society.
Here in the UK? In my life i have seen only one gun on the street (plenty in gun clubs and at shooting competitions). I reported the bastard and he was arrested - I had the satisfaction of knowing I had probably saved a life and that he was going down for at least five years.
I admit, criminals here do, sometimes, carry guns and they are used in inter-gang turf wars. Firstly, if you are in a criminal gang that settles their arguments with guns then you can have no complaints at being shot - they only rarely spill over into the general population. Secondly, the number of domestics involving guns and the number of random shootings is way less over here.
I maintain that the way to cut down the number of deaths amongst the general population (I deliberately exclude the criminal elements and, sadly, the police form this but they both insist on using guns) is to take stricter measures to prevent access to guns - not to make access easier.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755632 wrote: I 100% agree. Just dont try to limit MY freedom to carry. Im making a point here, sorry to be so flippant. My point is, no one wants to go first, because we can't trust our safety to others.
Its an impass, I think your right.
In my lifetime in the US I have seen hundreds of guns in hunt clubs and in rural america, mostly for hunting or target shooting. Ive seen guns used several times and I have been involved with returning fire but I'd rather not explain details regarding those instances here. For me guns have been tools to protect myself and others from criminal acitivity that was life threatening. The use of guns for me has been a necessity, and I am certain I would not be standing here today if I was unarmed during most of those exchanges.
As I have said, I cannot see any way to get from your current position to one where the rule of law is sufficient to provide security.
I do know that it would be a better position to be in but I just cannot see how to get there without problems during the transition.
Its an impass, I think your right.
In my lifetime in the US I have seen hundreds of guns in hunt clubs and in rural america, mostly for hunting or target shooting. Ive seen guns used several times and I have been involved with returning fire but I'd rather not explain details regarding those instances here. For me guns have been tools to protect myself and others from criminal acitivity that was life threatening. The use of guns for me has been a necessity, and I am certain I would not be standing here today if I was unarmed during most of those exchanges.
As I have said, I cannot see any way to get from your current position to one where the rule of law is sufficient to provide security.
I do know that it would be a better position to be in but I just cannot see how to get there without problems during the transition.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
I think I can solve these problems for US society by a simple substitution, rather than being a right to bear arms it should be an obligation. Every US adult with no criminal convictions should have to carry at all times and the rest banned. That way you'll easily be able to recognize the criminals as a bonus.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Acknowledging the right without mandating the obligation allows those who don't wish to bear arms their rights as well.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
If you make it an obligation you can disarm the police while you're at it. They might even turn polite in the process.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755652 wrote: I agree each male or head of household should be issued a weapon and training.
Mandatory or voluntary?
Mandatory or voluntary?
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
AussiePam;753850 wrote:
In Australia we've never had the right to bear arms, though a few people own guns, and shoot with clubs. Hunting is also not part of the Austalian psyche, though a few people do it. I very much doubt whether ordinary Aussies feel in any way deprived here. It's not something you normally think about at all. And you don't grieve over what you've never had. Getting shot is pretty unlikely too.
As a foreigner, I don't feel in a position to judge what Americans have chosen to do in their own country.
Personally, I like guns and enjoy target shooting.
I think you might be mistaken.
Australians did, at one time have the right to own guns legally in 1996, and now that all has changed as did the crime rate:
Australia saw its violent crime rates soar after its 1996 gun control measures banned most firearms. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed than they did the year before the law went into effect. Murder and manslaughter rates remained unchanged, but armed robbery rates increased 74%, aggravated assaults by 32%. Australia's violent crime rate is also now double America's. In contrast, the United States took the opposite approach and made it easier for individuals to carry guns. Thirty-seven of the 50 states now have right-to-carry laws that let law-abiding adults carry concealed handguns once they pass a criminal background check. Violent crime in the United States has fallen much faster than in Canada, and violent crime has fallen even faster inright-to-carry states than for the nation as a whole. The states with the fastest growth in gun ownership have also experienced the biggest drops in violent crime rates.
In Australia we've never had the right to bear arms, though a few people own guns, and shoot with clubs. Hunting is also not part of the Austalian psyche, though a few people do it. I very much doubt whether ordinary Aussies feel in any way deprived here. It's not something you normally think about at all. And you don't grieve over what you've never had. Getting shot is pretty unlikely too.
As a foreigner, I don't feel in a position to judge what Americans have chosen to do in their own country.
Personally, I like guns and enjoy target shooting.
I think you might be mistaken.
Australians did, at one time have the right to own guns legally in 1996, and now that all has changed as did the crime rate:
Australia saw its violent crime rates soar after its 1996 gun control measures banned most firearms. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed than they did the year before the law went into effect. Murder and manslaughter rates remained unchanged, but armed robbery rates increased 74%, aggravated assaults by 32%. Australia's violent crime rate is also now double America's. In contrast, the United States took the opposite approach and made it easier for individuals to carry guns. Thirty-seven of the 50 states now have right-to-carry laws that let law-abiding adults carry concealed handguns once they pass a criminal background check. Violent crime in the United States has fallen much faster than in Canada, and violent crime has fallen even faster inright-to-carry states than for the nation as a whole. The states with the fastest growth in gun ownership have also experienced the biggest drops in violent crime rates.
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Bryn Mawr;754523 wrote: Not at the moment, ever.
If you wish to believe that science has disproved religion that is your opinion, it is certainly not mine.
Here's an idea - why don't you suggest a justifiable reason why a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun.
I will start with this occupation for now but add more reasons why "a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
How about a store clerk?
A fast google of "STORE CLERK KILLED" got these results:
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 190,000 for
store clerk killed. (0.08 seconds)
Liquor Store Clerk Killed in Daytime Robbery - washingtonpost.com
A member of a family that operates a liquor store in Fort Washington was shot and killed yesterday afternoon during a robbery of the store, police said.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/a ... 01666.html - Similar pages - Note this
ABC7 News Online - Store clerk shot during robbery dies
LEE COUNTY: The store clerk and sheriff’s explorer who was shot during an armed robbery at a Hess Station on August 25th died from his injuries Friday. ...
www.abc-7.com/articles/readnews.asp?art ... 372&z=2&p= - 31k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Houston News ...
HOUSTON -- A robber and a clerk die in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reports. Friday, December 28, 2007.
www.click2houston.com/news/14937292/detail.html - 65k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot On Christmas Eve - ClickonDetroit.com- msnbc.com
Surveillance cameras rolled as an employee at a liquor store was shot on Christmas Eve during an armed robbery in Dearborn.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22400756/ - 50k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot In Face During Robbery - Cincinnati News Story ...
ROSELAWN -- A store clerk is recovering at University Hospital after being shot in the face on Tuesday night. Wednesday, January 2, 2008.
www.wlwt.com/news/14959497/detail.html - 61k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Valley Store Clerk Shot, Suspect Arrested - from CBS 42 wiat.com
Authorities have detained a suspect in the Christmas Eve shooting of a store clerk in Valley.
www.wiat.com/news/local/12828322.html - 35k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
cbs2chicago.com - Loan Store Clerk Killed In Waukegan
A deadly shooting claimed the life of a clerk at a loan store in north suburban Waukegan on Monday. VIDEO: Neighbors Remember The Young Woman Who Was ...
cbs2chicago.com/local/shooting.check.n.2.337166.html - 43k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
WTNH.com, Connecticut News and Weather - Store clerk killed in robbery
Connecticuts Leader for Breaking News, Traffic and Weather in New Haven, Hartford, New London, Middletown, Waterbury, Bridgeport, Norwich, Groton, ...
www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=7536782 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store clerk shot in back in Newark robbery - Topix
A grocery store clerk was shot during a robbery in Newark tonight, and the suspects fled on foot, police said. via Jersey Journal. Leave a Comment ...
www.topix.com/city/newark-nj/2007/12/st ... rk-robbery - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Yahoo! News
A robber and a clerk died Friday in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reported.
news.yahoo.com/s/kprc/20071228/lo_kprc/14937292 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
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If you wish to believe that science has disproved religion that is your opinion, it is certainly not mine.
Here's an idea - why don't you suggest a justifiable reason why a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun.
I will start with this occupation for now but add more reasons why "a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
How about a store clerk?
A fast google of "STORE CLERK KILLED" got these results:
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 190,000 for
store clerk killed. (0.08 seconds)
Liquor Store Clerk Killed in Daytime Robbery - washingtonpost.com
A member of a family that operates a liquor store in Fort Washington was shot and killed yesterday afternoon during a robbery of the store, police said.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/a ... 01666.html - Similar pages - Note this
ABC7 News Online - Store clerk shot during robbery dies
LEE COUNTY: The store clerk and sheriff’s explorer who was shot during an armed robbery at a Hess Station on August 25th died from his injuries Friday. ...
www.abc-7.com/articles/readnews.asp?art ... 372&z=2&p= - 31k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Houston News ...
HOUSTON -- A robber and a clerk die in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reports. Friday, December 28, 2007.
www.click2houston.com/news/14937292/detail.html - 65k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot On Christmas Eve - ClickonDetroit.com- msnbc.com
Surveillance cameras rolled as an employee at a liquor store was shot on Christmas Eve during an armed robbery in Dearborn.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22400756/ - 50k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot In Face During Robbery - Cincinnati News Story ...
ROSELAWN -- A store clerk is recovering at University Hospital after being shot in the face on Tuesday night. Wednesday, January 2, 2008.
www.wlwt.com/news/14959497/detail.html - 61k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Valley Store Clerk Shot, Suspect Arrested - from CBS 42 wiat.com
Authorities have detained a suspect in the Christmas Eve shooting of a store clerk in Valley.
www.wiat.com/news/local/12828322.html - 35k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
cbs2chicago.com - Loan Store Clerk Killed In Waukegan
A deadly shooting claimed the life of a clerk at a loan store in north suburban Waukegan on Monday. VIDEO: Neighbors Remember The Young Woman Who Was ...
cbs2chicago.com/local/shooting.check.n.2.337166.html - 43k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
WTNH.com, Connecticut News and Weather - Store clerk killed in robbery
Connecticuts Leader for Breaking News, Traffic and Weather in New Haven, Hartford, New London, Middletown, Waterbury, Bridgeport, Norwich, Groton, ...
www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=7536782 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store clerk shot in back in Newark robbery - Topix
A grocery store clerk was shot during a robbery in Newark tonight, and the suspects fled on foot, police said. via Jersey Journal. Leave a Comment ...
www.topix.com/city/newark-nj/2007/12/st ... rk-robbery - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Yahoo! News
A robber and a clerk died Friday in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reported.
news.yahoo.com/s/kprc/20071228/lo_kprc/14937292 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
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"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Bryn Mawr;754548 wrote: It's way past my bedtime so you've got to let me go :p
Examine the concept that a person can carry any form of weapon, from an RPG upwards, and the authorities can do f-all about it until they catch him using it.
Then consider the situation where anyone found in possession of any form of firearm is going down for at least five years.
Where is society safer?
"Where is society safer?"
In England ???:
Public fear of violent crime fed by rise in robberies with guns
Gun Control's Twisted OutcomeRestricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
Examine the concept that a person can carry any form of weapon, from an RPG upwards, and the authorities can do f-all about it until they catch him using it.
Then consider the situation where anyone found in possession of any form of firearm is going down for at least five years.
Where is society safer?
"Where is society safer?"
In England ???:
Public fear of violent crime fed by rise in robberies with guns
Gun Control's Twisted OutcomeRestricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Bryn Mawr;754573 wrote: Whatever weapon you carry round with you for self defence a nutter intent on killing will carry more. Short of an arms war where everyone carries Armageddon as routine your scenario does not work in the long term.
Tell me why home invasions in the UK are higher than the USA's then?
Why?
I am interested in your opinion why this can make you safer than me,
me being, a little ol AMERICAN citizen packin heat next to his bed?
In America it is sorta like.......... "Feel Lucky Punk?"
I think that is why our home invasions are so much lower per capita.
Wass you think it is?
Tell me why home invasions in the UK are higher than the USA's then?
Why?
I am interested in your opinion why this can make you safer than me,
me being, a little ol AMERICAN citizen packin heat next to his bed?
In America it is sorta like.......... "Feel Lucky Punk?"
I think that is why our home invasions are so much lower per capita.
Wass you think it is?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755639 wrote: It would certainly protect certain segments of our society, but it may make other segments less safe.
There is still the element that we did not agree on and thats the element of over throwing our government by force if necessary. How would you go about that if your government turned away from the rule of law?
Gee F@rider:
Coming from stock that fought the bloody British because of their tyranny, I can see why Bryn will have a hard time with this key question.
There is still the element that we did not agree on and thats the element of over throwing our government by force if necessary. How would you go about that if your government turned away from the rule of law?
Gee F@rider:
Coming from stock that fought the bloody British because of their tyranny, I can see why Bryn will have a hard time with this key question.
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
BTS;755690 wrote: I think you might be mistaken.
Australians did, at one time have the right to own guns legally in 1996, and now that all has changed as did the crime rate:
Australia saw its violent crime rates soar after its 1996 gun control measures banned most firearms. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed than they did the year before the law went into effect. Murder and manslaughter rates remained unchanged, but armed robbery rates increased 74%, aggravated assaults by 32%. Australia's violent crime rate is also now double America's. In contrast, the United States took the opposite approach and made it easier for individuals to carry guns. Thirty-seven of the 50 states now have right-to-carry laws that let law-abiding adults carry concealed handguns once they pass a criminal background check. Violent crime in the United States has fallen much faster than in Canada, and violent crime has fallen even faster inright-to-carry states than for the nation as a whole. The states with the fastest growth in gun ownership have also experienced the biggest drops in violent crime rates.
Dunno where you get your stats from, BTS, but I'm not getting into this old perennial, pointless argument. What I said related to a constitutional right to bear arms, not the ability to purchase and own guns.
Australians did, at one time have the right to own guns legally in 1996, and now that all has changed as did the crime rate:
Australia saw its violent crime rates soar after its 1996 gun control measures banned most firearms. Violent crime rates averaged 32% higher in the six years after the law was passed than they did the year before the law went into effect. Murder and manslaughter rates remained unchanged, but armed robbery rates increased 74%, aggravated assaults by 32%. Australia's violent crime rate is also now double America's. In contrast, the United States took the opposite approach and made it easier for individuals to carry guns. Thirty-seven of the 50 states now have right-to-carry laws that let law-abiding adults carry concealed handguns once they pass a criminal background check. Violent crime in the United States has fallen much faster than in Canada, and violent crime has fallen even faster inright-to-carry states than for the nation as a whole. The states with the fastest growth in gun ownership have also experienced the biggest drops in violent crime rates.
Dunno where you get your stats from, BTS, but I'm not getting into this old perennial, pointless argument. What I said related to a constitutional right to bear arms, not the ability to purchase and own guns.
"Life is too short to ski with ugly men"
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drumbunny1
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:29 am
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Fuzzy, what exactly is a "rifle-head", someone that enjoys guns, or exercising their RIGHT to own one? I'm just curious about what you mean....
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;755639 wrote: It would certainly protect certain segments of our society, but it may make other segments less safe.
There is still the element that we did not agree on and thats the element of over throwing our government by force if necessary. How would you go about that if your government turned away from the rule of law?
The time to worry is when the army turn rogue. If it is the Government turning away from the rule of la then you have the police and the judiciary to enforce it.
There is still the element that we did not agree on and thats the element of over throwing our government by force if necessary. How would you go about that if your government turned away from the rule of law?
The time to worry is when the army turn rogue. If it is the Government turning away from the rule of la then you have the police and the judiciary to enforce it.
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drumbunny1
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:29 am
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Gotcha Fuzzy.... But in America, it is a constitutional right....The right to bear arms.
But in America, it is a constitutional right....The right to bear arms.Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
BTS;755694 wrote: I will start with this occupation for now but add more reasons why "a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
How about a store clerk?
A fast google of "STORE CLERK KILLED" got these results:
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 190,000 for
store clerk killed. (0.08 seconds)
Liquor Store Clerk Killed in Daytime Robbery - washingtonpost.com
A member of a family that operates a liquor store in Fort Washington was shot and killed yesterday afternoon during a robbery of the store, police said.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/a ... 01666.html - Similar pages - Note this
ABC7 News Online - Store clerk shot during robbery dies
LEE COUNTY: The store clerk and sheriff’s explorer who was shot during an armed robbery at a Hess Station on August 25th died from his injuries Friday. ...
www.abc-7.com/articles/readnews.asp?art ... 372&z=2&p= - 31k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Houston News ...
HOUSTON -- A robber and a clerk die in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reports. Friday, December 28, 2007.
www.click2houston.com/news/14937292/detail.html - 65k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot On Christmas Eve - ClickonDetroit.com- msnbc.com
Surveillance cameras rolled as an employee at a liquor store was shot on Christmas Eve during an armed robbery in Dearborn.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22400756/ - 50k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot In Face During Robbery - Cincinnati News Story ...
ROSELAWN -- A store clerk is recovering at University Hospital after being shot in the face on Tuesday night. Wednesday, January 2, 2008.
www.wlwt.com/news/14959497/detail.html - 61k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Valley Store Clerk Shot, Suspect Arrested - from CBS 42 wiat.com
Authorities have detained a suspect in the Christmas Eve shooting of a store clerk in Valley.
www.wiat.com/news/local/12828322.html - 35k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
cbs2chicago.com - Loan Store Clerk Killed In Waukegan
A deadly shooting claimed the life of a clerk at a loan store in north suburban Waukegan on Monday. VIDEO: Neighbors Remember The Young Woman Who Was ...
cbs2chicago.com/local/shooting.check.n.2.337166.html - 43k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
WTNH.com, Connecticut News and Weather - Store clerk killed in robbery
Connecticuts Leader for Breaking News, Traffic and Weather in New Haven, Hartford, New London, Middletown, Waterbury, Bridgeport, Norwich, Groton, ...
www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=7536782 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store clerk shot in back in Newark robbery - Topix
A grocery store clerk was shot during a robbery in Newark tonight, and the suspects fled on foot, police said. via Jersey Journal. Leave a Comment ...
www.topix.com/city/newark-nj/2007/12/st ... rk-robbery - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Yahoo! News
A robber and a clerk died Friday in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reported.
news.yahoo.com/s/kprc/20071228/lo_kprc/14937292 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
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You appear to be trying to prove that, in a culture where guns are rife, store clerks are shot on a casual basis by every Tom Dick and Harry robbing a store.
I agree, I can happen over here - I remember two or three cases in the last year, but 190,000 - the Government would fall if law an order became so bad.
How about a store clerk?
A fast google of "STORE CLERK KILLED" got these results:
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 190,000 for
store clerk killed. (0.08 seconds)
Liquor Store Clerk Killed in Daytime Robbery - washingtonpost.com
A member of a family that operates a liquor store in Fort Washington was shot and killed yesterday afternoon during a robbery of the store, police said.
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/a ... 01666.html - Similar pages - Note this
ABC7 News Online - Store clerk shot during robbery dies
LEE COUNTY: The store clerk and sheriff’s explorer who was shot during an armed robbery at a Hess Station on August 25th died from his injuries Friday. ...
www.abc-7.com/articles/readnews.asp?art ... 372&z=2&p= - 31k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Houston News ...
HOUSTON -- A robber and a clerk die in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reports. Friday, December 28, 2007.
www.click2houston.com/news/14937292/detail.html - 65k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot On Christmas Eve - ClickonDetroit.com- msnbc.com
Surveillance cameras rolled as an employee at a liquor store was shot on Christmas Eve during an armed robbery in Dearborn.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22400756/ - 50k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store Clerk Shot In Face During Robbery - Cincinnati News Story ...
ROSELAWN -- A store clerk is recovering at University Hospital after being shot in the face on Tuesday night. Wednesday, January 2, 2008.
www.wlwt.com/news/14959497/detail.html - 61k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Valley Store Clerk Shot, Suspect Arrested - from CBS 42 wiat.com
Authorities have detained a suspect in the Christmas Eve shooting of a store clerk in Valley.
www.wiat.com/news/local/12828322.html - 35k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
cbs2chicago.com - Loan Store Clerk Killed In Waukegan
A deadly shooting claimed the life of a clerk at a loan store in north suburban Waukegan on Monday. VIDEO: Neighbors Remember The Young Woman Who Was ...
cbs2chicago.com/local/shooting.check.n.2.337166.html - 43k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
WTNH.com, Connecticut News and Weather - Store clerk killed in robbery
Connecticuts Leader for Breaking News, Traffic and Weather in New Haven, Hartford, New London, Middletown, Waterbury, Bridgeport, Norwich, Groton, ...
www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=7536782 - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Store clerk shot in back in Newark robbery - Topix
A grocery store clerk was shot during a robbery in Newark tonight, and the suspects fled on foot, police said. via Jersey Journal. Leave a Comment ...
www.topix.com/city/newark-nj/2007/12/st ... rk-robbery - 51k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Robber, Clerk Killed In Separate Store Shootings - Yahoo! News
A robber and a clerk died Friday in shootings at two separate convenience stores in the Houston area, KPRC Local 2 reported.
news.yahoo.com/s/kprc/20071228/lo_kprc/14937292 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
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You appear to be trying to prove that, in a culture where guns are rife, store clerks are shot on a casual basis by every Tom Dick and Harry robbing a store.
I agree, I can happen over here - I remember two or three cases in the last year, but 190,000 - the Government would fall if law an order became so bad.
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drumbunny1
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:29 am
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Oh yeah, I agree with you on the rifle head thing, I also own a gun, but I do not get "off" from firing one
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
BTS;755701 wrote: "Where is society safer?"
In England ???:
Public fear of violent crime fed by rise in robberies with guns
Gun Control's Twisted OutcomeRestricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
You read some funny articles, it's a wonder where you find them. Don't believe every story to come across.
In England ???:
Public fear of violent crime fed by rise in robberies with guns
Gun Control's Twisted OutcomeRestricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.
You read some funny articles, it's a wonder where you find them. Don't believe every story to come across.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
BTS;755703 wrote: Tell me why home invasions in the UK are higher than the USA's then?
Why?
I am interested in your opinion why this can make you safer than me,
me being, a little ol AMERICAN citizen packin heat next to his bed?
In America it is sorta like.......... "Feel Lucky Punk?"
I think that is why our home invasions are so much lower per capita.
Wass you think it is?
First tell me what a home invasion is and then show me the statistics you're quoting.
Why?
I am interested in your opinion why this can make you safer than me,
me being, a little ol AMERICAN citizen packin heat next to his bed?
In America it is sorta like.......... "Feel Lucky Punk?"
I think that is why our home invasions are so much lower per capita.
Wass you think it is?
First tell me what a home invasion is and then show me the statistics you're quoting.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
If I'm not mistaken, home invasion is breaking & entering. Burglary.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;756004 wrote: Having spent a career in the US military this subject has come up more than once, bunches of times in fact, when I was lower enlisted and then less and less as I claimbed the NCO ladder. I have sat around with a bunch of guys and discussed how we'd do it, mostly out of selfish reasons such as knocking off a certain officer that was an idiot who made our lives miserable, and we could have easily done it, the problem is that for the rogue element to happen there has to be a reason big enough and then the element breaking off needed to be big enough.
Its a futile thought though, you'd have to secure an extremely large section of the military's loyalty and over come discipline of rank, I'm not saying its impossible, but its highly unlikely.
Look at other countries - the military coup is the standard method of transfer of power in some. It's not usually a small portion of the army tuning rogue, it's the senior command deciding that "things have gone too far" and that "civilians are not to be trusted with the running of the country".
If you put overwhelming physical power in the hands of the few then you'd better be damn'd sure that they're on a short leash.
The discipline of rank is to obey their superior officers - if *the* superior officers (discounting the President as head of the armed forces) gave the orders then forces discipline work against you.
Its a futile thought though, you'd have to secure an extremely large section of the military's loyalty and over come discipline of rank, I'm not saying its impossible, but its highly unlikely.
Look at other countries - the military coup is the standard method of transfer of power in some. It's not usually a small portion of the army tuning rogue, it's the senior command deciding that "things have gone too far" and that "civilians are not to be trusted with the running of the country".
If you put overwhelming physical power in the hands of the few then you'd better be damn'd sure that they're on a short leash.
The discipline of rank is to obey their superior officers - if *the* superior officers (discounting the President as head of the armed forces) gave the orders then forces discipline work against you.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Our gov't's short leash is tied to a barrel of a privately-owned firearm. 
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Bryn Mawr;755733 wrote: You appear to be trying to prove that, in a culture where guns are rife, store clerks are shot on a casual basis by every Tom Dick and Harry robbing a store.
I agree, I can happen over here - I remember two or three cases in the last year, but 190,000 - the Government would fall if law an order became so bad.
You can try to twist it ALL you like...but....
This is what I was replying to:
Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr
....................
Here's an idea - why don't you suggest a justifiable reason why a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
(color added by bts)
And I gave you a thousand + reasons.............
For why:
"a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
Did you read even one of the reasons why I might like to feel protected?
Sad truth is, YES there are bad guys with guns out there that will do harm for their own interests. (see my prior links) Does that mean I am willing to give up my right to bear arms and surrender all handguns as you seem to suggest.
OK, so what if I did so, then will all the bad guys turn them in also..........
I would bet NOT!!!!
IMO........I like these stories better in that the ending for the INNOCENT comes out much better than the killing of those that had no self defence.
Police: 7-Eleven Clerk Shoots Suspected Robber
West Side Store Clerk Shoots Alleged Robber
7-Eleven clerk shoots, wounds would-be thief
I agree, I can happen over here - I remember two or three cases in the last year, but 190,000 - the Government would fall if law an order became so bad.
You can try to twist it ALL you like...but....
This is what I was replying to:
Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr
....................
Here's an idea - why don't you suggest a justifiable reason why a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
(color added by bts)
And I gave you a thousand + reasons.............
For why:
"a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
Did you read even one of the reasons why I might like to feel protected?
Sad truth is, YES there are bad guys with guns out there that will do harm for their own interests. (see my prior links) Does that mean I am willing to give up my right to bear arms and surrender all handguns as you seem to suggest.
OK, so what if I did so, then will all the bad guys turn them in also..........
I would bet NOT!!!!
IMO........I like these stories better in that the ending for the INNOCENT comes out much better than the killing of those that had no self defence.
Police: 7-Eleven Clerk Shoots Suspected Robber
West Side Store Clerk Shoots Alleged Robber
7-Eleven clerk shoots, wounds would-be thief
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Accountable;756064 wrote: Our gov't's short leash is tied to a barrel of a privately-owned firearm.
The short leash is for the army and not the government (which, on its own, you can deal with peaceably) and all the privately owned firearms in the country ill do you no good if the army turn rogue.
The short leash is for the army and not the government (which, on its own, you can deal with peaceably) and all the privately owned firearms in the country ill do you no good if the army turn rogue.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Jester;756093 wrote: Bryn I spent 20 years in the military, I topped out as a high level NCO, of the hundreds of officers I served under, there are maybe five that I'd give my life for, if any one of those five asked me to join them in an armed insurrection against the United States, I'd assume they were pod people and kill them with my bare hands, and the pods too.
Then the US is lucky to have such soldiers - I thought we were playing hat if?
Military coups do happen in the way I described but if you feel that the loyalty of the army to the country (as opposed to the government or the commanders) is unquestionable then you have absolutely no need for privately owned firearms to keep the government on the straight and narrow.
Then the US is lucky to have such soldiers - I thought we were playing hat if?
Military coups do happen in the way I described but if you feel that the loyalty of the army to the country (as opposed to the government or the commanders) is unquestionable then you have absolutely no need for privately owned firearms to keep the government on the straight and narrow.
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
BTS;756106 wrote: You can try to twist it ALL you like...but....
This is what I was replying to:
Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr
....................
Here's an idea - why don't you suggest a justifiable reason why a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
(color added by bts)
And I gave you a thousand + reasons.............
For why:
"a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
Did you read even one of the reasons why I might like to feel protected?
Sad truth is, YES there are bad guys with guns out there that will do harm for their own interests. (see my prior links) Does that mean I am willing to give up my right to bear arms and surrender all handguns as you seem to suggest.
OK, so what if I did so, then will all the bad guys turn them in also..........
I would bet NOT!!!!
IMO........I like these stories better in that the ending for the INNOCENT comes out much better than the killing of those that had no self defence.
Police: 7-Eleven Clerk Shoots Suspected Robber
West Side Store Clerk Shoots Alleged Robber
7-Eleven clerk shoots, wounds would-be thief
You don't get it do you?
The fact that two or three store clerks managed to shoot the idiot robbing their shop means nothing against the 190,000 store clerks shot whilst working. (your figures)
You cannot argue statistics by quoting individual occurrences - you need to go to the Office of National Statistics or the National Audit Office or whatever else you want to call it and find the rates of killing of innocent citizens in gun crime versus the number of lives saved by those private citizens carrying a gun and shooting their assailants. Then you can show that the right to carry arms makes you safer.
Or find a report where the journalist has done that for you.
The sites you've been quoting do not present fact, they present propaganda. They are not there to inform opinion but to manipulate it.
This is what I was replying to:
Originally Posted by Bryn Mawr
....................
Here's an idea - why don't you suggest a justifiable reason why a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
(color added by bts)
And I gave you a thousand + reasons.............
For why:
"a peaceable, law abiding citizen in a society under the rule of law wound need to carry a gun."
Did you read even one of the reasons why I might like to feel protected?
Sad truth is, YES there are bad guys with guns out there that will do harm for their own interests. (see my prior links) Does that mean I am willing to give up my right to bear arms and surrender all handguns as you seem to suggest.
OK, so what if I did so, then will all the bad guys turn them in also..........
I would bet NOT!!!!
IMO........I like these stories better in that the ending for the INNOCENT comes out much better than the killing of those that had no self defence.
Police: 7-Eleven Clerk Shoots Suspected Robber
West Side Store Clerk Shoots Alleged Robber
7-Eleven clerk shoots, wounds would-be thief
You don't get it do you?
The fact that two or three store clerks managed to shoot the idiot robbing their shop means nothing against the 190,000 store clerks shot whilst working. (your figures)
You cannot argue statistics by quoting individual occurrences - you need to go to the Office of National Statistics or the National Audit Office or whatever else you want to call it and find the rates of killing of innocent citizens in gun crime versus the number of lives saved by those private citizens carrying a gun and shooting their assailants. Then you can show that the right to carry arms makes you safer.
Or find a report where the journalist has done that for you.
The sites you've been quoting do not present fact, they present propaganda. They are not there to inform opinion but to manipulate it.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Discussing the Right On list: The right to bear arms.
Bryn Mawr;756129 wrote: The short leash is for the army and not the government (which, on its own, you can deal with peaceably) and all the privately owned firearms in the country ill do you no good if the army turn rogue.
Viva La Revolution!!
Viva La Revolution!!