What Are They Dying For?

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:41 am

Seeing as it is Remembrance/Veteran's Day and that, recently, a few members have said that not everyone should have the freedom of speech and/or a fair trial... I'd like to hear some answers on what our soldiers have died for.

I've also heard that we should take various actions because other countries would do the same. We fight other countries to keep our values and way of life. Again, what are they dying for?

watermark · Post by **watermark** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:12 am

koan;718636 wrote: We fight other countries to keep our values and way of life. Again, what are they dying for?

I would say that is why, what you said above. I don't know why everyone has to fight like this, but his is how people settle things, by fighting to the death.

It might sound like I don't appreciate where I live or the freedoms I have but that is not true. I'm grateful for being born and having lived in a free country like the US. Thanks to men and women who have fought for my way of life I say thank you. I know I couldnt be a soldier and so I'm glad someone will do this job.

Maybe someday we won't have to fight for freedom like this. Maybe someday everyone on earth will have freedom and things will not need to come to war.

E

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:16 am

I think this topic could wait until after Veterans Day. It's not very sharp to question why they died or are dying on a day we use to honor them.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:52 am

What better way to honour them than to try and ensure that what they fought for is retained?

I keep getting told that I'm being inappropriate and I'd like to state that it is simply a matter of seeing the world differently. This thread is my way of honouring those people whether or not you approve of it or understand it.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:02 am

Call it what you want Koan, but I see no difference between starting a thread like this and picketing a military funeral. One thing I've learned the hard way is that there really is a time and a place for everything. Your timing is off when we have members here who have dead loved ones, amputated and blinded loved ones, and loved ones who may not even come home. I don't care if you think I should approve or not, the fact is you've offended me and I would guess to say I'm not the only one. You forget we are honoring ALL war veterans and not just those in Iraq. I have people in my family who fought in wars and I don't appreciate this BS on their memory.

cinamin · Post by **cinamin** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:14 am

RedGlitter;718658 wrote: I think this topic could wait until after Veterans Day. It's not very sharp to question why they died or are dying on a day we use to honor them.

Who died and made you the FG policewoman? Considering all of the stupid posts you subject us to, you are in no place to tell anyone what they can and cannot write here. BTW, are you looking for a brownie button for the nutjob who started the most posts? :rolleyes:

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:44 am

watermark;718655 wrote: I would say that is why, what you said above. I don't know why everyone has to fight like this, but his is how people settle things, by fighting to the death.

It might sound like I don't appreciate where I live or the freedoms I have but that is not true. I'm grateful for being born and having lived in a free country like the US. Thanks to men and women who have fought for my way of life I say thank you. I know I couldnt be a soldier and so I'm glad someone will do this job.

Maybe someday we won't have to fight for freedom like this. Maybe someday everyone on earth will have freedom and things will not need to come to war.

E

Sounds good to me.

I posted this last year at this time. I shall post it again.

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath--a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path....

TRIBES

This is life kids.

Deal with it.

Imladris · Post by **Imladris** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:02 pm

I completely and whole heartedly agree with Red here. Today is a day to remember and honour, a day to admire and reflect on how lucky we are NOT a day to start a debate on whether their sacrifice was right, justified or worth it.

Just thank God that their sacrifice was made and that we have the freedom (whatever country you belong to) to be able to discuss it. Just not today.

Let us retain some dignity for goodness sake, for one day.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:07 pm

RedGlitter;718658 wrote: I think this topic could wait until after Veterans Day. It's not very sharp to question why they died or are dying on a day we use to honor them.

Actually the point of remembrance day in the UK is not only to remember the fallen but also remind ourselves of the futility of war and the consequences of blind obedience to patriotism's call. It is very much to remember them and question why they died and a promise from the living to the dead that it will not happen again. In a very real sense they died so that you COULD question. It's almost an insult to their memory not to question why they died and also not to question why soldiers are again being asked to die for us. As well as sadness IMO you should feel anger at the politicians who so happily go to war with other people's children and wave the banner of patriotism at those who dare to ask why and who would use remembrance day and the sentiments aroused by it for their own purposes to stop the questioning.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

Saw the documentary. He makes the point that all wars end at the conference table so why not sit at a table before so many died. Kind of says it all really.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:11 pm

gmc;718757 wrote: Actually the point of remembrance day in the UK is not only to remember the fallen but also remind ourselves of the futility of war and the consequences of blind obedience to patriotism's call. It is very much to remember them and question why they died and a promise from the living to the dead that it will not happen again. In a very real sense they died so that you COULD question. It's almost an insult to their memory not to question why they died and also not to question why soldiers are again being asked to die for us. As well as sadness IMO you should feel anger at the politicians who so happily go to war with other people's children and wave the banner of patriotism at those who dare to ask why and who would use remembrance day and the sentiments aroused by it for their own purposes to stop the questioning.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

Saw the documentary. He makes the point that all wars end at the conference table so why not sit at a table before so many died. Kind of says it all really.

Bravo gmc.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:01 pm

Well said Jimbo I agree. :yh_flag

[QUOTE]yes remember them and those that are still dying today but ask why and maybe if enough people ask why .. then maybe just maybe lessons will be learned and no more of our brave sons will die in the name of blind patriotism [/QUOTE]

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:27 pm

Thank you, gmc.

I didn't post this to start a fight, it is sincerely my way of trying to ensure that none of those deaths have been in vain. I always believed this was a day to reflect on the lessons we've learned from wars of the past and did not start it with the current war in mind.

Thank you jimbo, for making a very personal contribution as well.

Despite having very different opinions than many members here, very commonly differing from RedGlitter in our perspective, I don't try to disturb the peace, I try to make my words count and I speak honestly. If that offends anyone I'm not about to apologise. We have limited words left to speak in any given lifetime and I use mine to question, to challenge the status quo and to try and bring new light to our understanding of the world.

War is a terrible fact of life. We can only hope that each one takes us one step closer to the last.

minks · Post by **minks** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:42 pm

Honored in life, honored in death, to each his/her own. As long as we continue to honor them.

my grandfather Curtis S Miller faught in and survived WWII fighting for freedom

My cousin Thomas J Stirling faught in and was seriously wounded in Afghanastan, fighting for peace being a peacekeeper

I owe a great honor to both and all other veterans.

freetobeme · Post by **freetobeme** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:21 pm

We should never forget why our veterans died. They died to keep us free and paid with the ultimate price - their lives. There was no negotiating with Hitler, if these troops had not fought we wouldn't be here talking about it now.

I'm, with RG on this one... tad late in replying just saw this thread.

find me here

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:29 pm

gmc;718757 wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

Saw the documentary. He makes the point that all wars end at the conference table so why not sit at a table before so many died. Kind of says it all really.

Actually gmc we tried to sit at the BIG table (UN) with Saddam but he snubbed us and the rest of the world for years...... (16 UN Security Sanctions alone)

Maybe dat der table don't work?

Just ask Saddam Insane!!!

Kind of says it all really.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:20 pm

koan;718636 wrote: Seeing as it is Remembrance/Veteran's Day and that, recently, a few members have said that not everyone should have the freedom of speech and/or a fair trial... I'd like to hear some answers on what our soldiers have died for.

I've also heard that we should take various actions because other countries would do the same. We fight other countries to keep our values and way of life. Again, what are they dying for?

My father died when I was 5 years old. He died in an aircrft that he was the pilot.....he killed himself and his co-pilot .................they SLAMMMED straight into the side of a mountain....downdraft sucked them right in. That hits home every day of the week.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:25 am

BTS;725066 wrote: Actually gmc we tried to sit at the BIG table (UN) with Saddam but he snubbed us and the rest of the world for years...... (16 UN Security Sanctions alone)

Maybe dat der table don't work?

Just ask Saddam Insane!!!

Kind of says it all really.

Oh Bollocks. Go away have look at the history of how Saddam came to power and stayed in power within the happy collusion of the west and in particular the american government so long as he was doing what they wanted. The time to have kicked saddam out of power was after the first gulf war rather than encourage internal revolt and then sit back and watch while he slaughtered those who rose against him and he re-exerted control.

He never had weapons of mass destruction he had nothing to do with 911 and the only reason for the invasion was to get control of the oil. You've had almost 4,000 killed an forty thousand wounded how many will it take before you start to question what you are told and call your government to account for what they do in your name. Blind patriotism is one of the most destructive forces in politics. That's what we remember on remembrance day. The sheer stupidity of ww1 and the millions that died because to ask why was unpatriotic. We also remember how we stood alone against Nazi Germany

It's not just saddam and his ilk that snub the rest of the world. The US abrogates international treaties like the geneva convention when it suits refuses to sign up to the international court in case an american get called to account, announces it will "renegotiate" trade treaties until it gets what it wants. ignores things like global warming because it might affect your economy -tells the UN either support us or get stuffed and then bleat that nobody likes you and

Pakistan HAS nuclear weapons, forget Iran worry about them. Pakistan USED to be a democracy, it no longer is and does your government support support democracy there? No you back up military dictator in Pakistan who is imprisoning all the secular opposition because they're daft enough to believe he is on your side in the war on terror and will be able to keep the fundamentalists in check when in reality he is leaving things open for them to take control.

When eventually you do pull out of iraq there will be civil along religious lines war and the country will split in two with thousands killed on all sides and eventually what will happen. That's right they will sit down at a table and come to an agreement to end it all. . Fifty years from now people will look back and wonder what the heck we were thinking of.

The thing that really angers me is that the British got suckered as well. Tony Blair is an arsehole and it is to our shame we let him get away with it-but that's our problem. GW is yours-If you do go to war against Iran-and GW doesn't have long to start that one are you going to fall for it all again or will you remember that many died so that people like you have the right to question what your government does and do in fact have the power. Maybe it's going to take seeing anti-war demonstrators being gunned down on your street for you to realise what you can lose.

http://foxattacks.com/iran

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:30 am

I believe Noam Chomsky said "It is the duty of the intellectual to question authority." I give everyone the credit of being intellectual enough to accomplish that.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:35 am

"democratic and friendly Iran."

from one of the articles mentioned on gmc's link.

This stood out. No country is safe unless it is democratic AND friendly. Iran is democratic but that is already being used in an excuse to attack because the subjective quality of "friendly" isn't being met as well.

Sending soldiers over and dropping bombs on them will make them friendlier?

freetobeme · Post by **freetobeme** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:38 am

Iran - democratic hmmm try and dress outside the proscribed limits.

They have an elected President, but he is not the Supreme Leader who controls the military and police etc. He is chosen by the Assembly of Experts

Above the president is the Supreme Leader who controls the military and police. He also appoints the heads of the judiciary etc.

The Supreme Leader is chosen by the elected Assembly of Experts, based on his qualifications and 'esteem', he can also be booted out, the current one is Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. The real power in Iran are the Mullahs, who isolate and repress he Iranians. e.g. Fashion police you can be lashed and thrown in Janin in Iran for not wearing the correct clothing, a woman can be arrested for "bad hijab"

Dropping bombs on Iran's nuclear facilities won't make them any friendlier, but there is no real evidence that the U.S. will do that, only conjecture and speculation. Sometimes I wonder if people are really rooting for the U.S. to do that so they can work themselves up into another frenzy.

find me here

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:42 am

When the Palestinians elected Hamas their democracy was slapped with sanctions. Do people still think that democracy is one of the goals of the 'free world'?

buttercup · Post by **buttercup** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:35 pm

Q. What are they dying for?

A. Mates / Regiment / Platoon / Unit.

Does anyone actually still believe its all about queen & country?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:46 am

buttercup;725515 wrote: Q. What are they dying for?

A. Mates / Regiment / Platoon / Unit.

Does anyone actually still believe its all about queen & country?

Was it ever?

drumbunny1 · Post by **drumbunny1** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:09 pm

I'm with Jester on this one..again I believe this thread is about "what are they dying for"? So are we JUST talking about Soldiers in the middle east or ALL soldiers...I don't think they should be seperate. I disagree with any argument about "our politicians sending our son's/daughters to die" there has been no draft so every soldier that is fighting to this day is over there on his own free will, and by that I mean that they signed up KNOWING that going to war could possibly happen, and if that should happen then the soldiers are the ones sent to risk their lives. And they never die in vain as long as everyone remembers that the only reason we can sit here and speak our minds freely is because they died so we could do that very thing. As a matter of fact I have a very close friend who just got back from spending 3 years in Iraq and hes re-enlisted to go over there again....I asked him why and he said "so you don't have to"

freetobeme · Post by **freetobeme** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:54 pm

Jester;744070 wrote: Mybe we should add that as a reason, They are dying so the general populace doesnt have to.

Well said !!