Time for another Death Penalty thread

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:23 pm

If there was an execution broadcasting on television would you watch it?

woppy71 · Post by **woppy71** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:27 pm

To be honest, yes.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:27 pm

Probably

Patsy

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:30 pm

no i would not though I support the death penalty 100%

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:30 pm

I'm not sure, it might depend who it was :-6:-6

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:31 pm

Yes.

If I'm going to support it then I ought to be prepared to watch it.

That said, I don't think TV executions are a good thing, Koan. A public execution like in the old days, fine, because you'd be right there to see and feel the horrificness of it. But I think if people saw it on tv, it's be no worse than watching Diehard 2 or some such, because they'd be too removed from it.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:39 pm

No way - murder as public entertainment is obscene.

We grew beyond that two hundred years ago.

minks · Post by **minks** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:40 pm

Bryn Mawr;671342 wrote: No way - murder as public entertainment is obscene.

We grew beyond that two hundred years ago.

how right you are

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:41 pm

yes, i would watch it..

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:46 pm

koan;671310 wrote: If there was an execution broadcasting on television would you watch it?

Sure--------with popcorn.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:49 pm

Prolly not, but I fully support showing it. It's part of an honest and open society. If you can't show it on CSPAN the the gov't shouldn't do it.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:50 pm

Nope. I am not for the death penalty, and by the way it costs more to kill them than to imprison them for life, and if the person is guilty let them rot, for a long time. If not and it can be proven later they are innocent then they may be able to salvage some of their life again. I have no need, or desire to see people killed. I see enough people killing themselves with out having to watch the government do it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:51 pm

I wouldn't be able to watch it because I'd be on the streets with my picket sign at the time.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:54 pm

No, I would not watch it.

theia · Post by **theia** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:56 pm

Bryn Mawr;671342 wrote: No way - murder as public entertainment is obscene.

We grew beyond that two hundred years ago.

I agree

saffy · Post by **saffy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:13 pm

No, no way..I am totally against the death penalty.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:13 pm

Bryn Mawr;671342 wrote: No way - murder as public entertainment is obscene.

We grew beyond that two hundred years ago.

Well, this is why I wouldn't want it on tv. I think everyone including those of us who support it, should be compelled to witness it in all its horror. No hiding from it. If it's on tv, people will make popcorn and will forget it's a real person.

If they actually have to stand at the gallows and watch the person drop and swing, (or whatever the equivalent is) they may be more apt to consider the gravity of it. Am I making any sense? You older guys know I support it but not for a minute do I want to forget what is actually happening.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:33 pm

It would depend on the crime. I would gladly flip the switch or give the injection to a pedophile.

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:24 pm

koan;671361 wrote: I wouldn't be able to watch it because I'd be on the streets with my picket sign at the time.

And I'd be next you with the bullhorn. To my sensibilities, killing for any reason is abhorrent no matter if it's perpetrated by an individual or the state.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:17 am

I have trouble looking things up in the Tusas' book on the Nuremberg Trials because I know there's photographs from the executions somewhere toward the end. I was very unhappy when they sprang into my head the first time I read the book and I still wish I hadn't ever seen them.

Does nobody remember the passage from St Augustine's Confessions in which he describes a friend's reaction to the public executions and death-fights at the Colliseum? The parallel between those experiences and addiction is fairly clear. It's a pornographic reaction, I wouldn't want to mess my head that way.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:34 am

Does anyone here support the death penalty but not the public display? I'd like to see the rationale.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:45 am

Absolutely not. Every judicial system with the death penalty has executed people who were subsequently demonstrated beyond question to have been innocent of the crime for which they were sentenced. The underlying debate is whether it is expedient for one innocent person to die unjustly for the good of society as a whole. I find it immoral and unacceptable. Some people find it immoral but tolerable. That's the choice being made.

I don't see the point of asking whether I'd support it if there were a guarantee that the condemned had actually committed the crime. No such guarantee exists. Beyond that, should the first argument fail, there's judgemental issues on what is or is not an extenuating circumstance and the extent to which society changes its mind on that decision from one generation to the next.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:50 am

We've all heard the arguments for & against the penalty itself. I was referring to showing it on TV. I want to hear from supporters of the death penalty who think it should be banned from public view, and arguably public knowledge.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:16 am

Accountable;671580 wrote: We've all heard the arguments for & against the penalty itself. I was referring to showing it on TV. I want to hear from supporters of the death penalty who think it should be banned from public view, and arguably public knowledge.

My apology, I had trouble interpreting your question correctly.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:20 am

State law requires executions to take place out of the public venue. For proponents of public executions, it would have to be changed at that level first.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:37 am

RedGlitter;671415 wrote: Well, this is why I wouldn't want it on tv. I think everyone including those of us who support it, should be compelled to witness it in all its horror. No hiding from it. If it's on tv, people will make popcorn and will forget it's a real person.

If they actually have to stand at the gallows and watch the person drop and swing, (or whatever the equivalent is) they may be more apt to consider the gravity of it. Am I making any sense? You older guys know I support it but not for a minute do I want to forget what is actually happening.

You're making sense but it was a terrible pun :p

How many of you that support the death penalty could pull the lever and not come out the other side a changed person?

It might be the state decreeing the penalty but it's an individual doing the killing.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:25 pm

Bryn Mawr;671791 wrote: You're making sense but it was a terrible pun :p

How many of you that support the death penalty could pull the lever and not come out the other side a changed person?

It might be the state decreeing the penalty but it's an individual doing the killing.

I thought of the pun Bryn after I wrote that but i didn't think anyone would catch it. :wah:

I'm quite sure I could pull the lever especially if the crime was one of those I feel so strongly about. If I didn't feel strongly then I would have an objection to it. Would I come out changed? Probably not. But I would be affected. Definitely affected. And I would hope so.

I've been scouring the web for an an article I thought would be appropriate for this discussion but I cannot find it yet. It was on the man who invented lethal injection. Why he put in it the drugs he did. There is controversy surrounding whether or not the criminal feels pain or if the one drug ingredient causes asphyxiation. Supposedly it can paralyze the muscles so one can suffocate but cannot give any indication of it.

The inventor now says the drug needs to be upgraded and he would leave out the muscle paralysis drug. He also advocates bringing back the guillotine as he says it's quick and painless. I don't know about that. There are reports of heads showing remaining signs of life after being cut off.

Wish I could find that article for you! I'll keep looking.

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:58 pm

I'm in total agreement with Spot on this one. I would however put it even more strongly - Spot said "No such guarantee exists."

In my opinion, no such guarantee can exist.

If no such guarantee exists, the application of the death penalty is obscene (in the true meaning of the word) and inhuman.

I'm also including the original definition of obscene - Latin Obscenus, meaning "foul, repulsive, detestable", possibly derived from ob caenum, literally "from filth").

el guapo · Post by **el guapo** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:03 pm

i have my own views on this some of ya know some dont

but there are some i would gladly hang inject or fry

would not think twice

minks · Post by **minks** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:12 pm

Accountable;671574 wrote: Does anyone here support the death penalty but not the public display? I'd like to see the rationale.

Oh that would be me.

I do not believe it should be made a public display. I firmly believe many criminals live and then die for infammy (spelling) to be infamous they want it to be a big public display. This is wrong and therefore the death should not be made a public matter. We know there are killers out there for example who go into schools and shoot the place up then turn the guns upon themselves and later we read on the net or where ever their personal diaries are kept, they wanted to die infamous they did it for the attention. That is so wrong and public display of the death penalty just reinforces that in my opinion. Why give them that satisfaction.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:23 pm

minks;672018 wrote: Oh that would be me.

I do not believe it should be made a public display. I firmly believe many criminals live and then die for infammy (spelling) to be infamous they want it to be a big public display. This is wrong and therefore the death should not be made a public matter. We know there are killers out there for example who go into schools and shoot the place up then turn the guns upon themselves and later we read on the net or where ever their personal diaries are kept, they wanted to die infamous they did it for the attention. That is so wrong and public display of the death penalty just reinforces that in my opinion. Why give them that satisfaction.

Excellent reasoning :-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:13 pm

That's an excellent argument I hadn't considered, Minks.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:05 pm

I started watching the video of so damn insane's hanging but I couldnt go through with it. I turned it off. I can live with that.

NotToday · Post by **NotToday** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:43 pm

Nomad;672688 wrote: I started watching the video of so damn insane's hanging but I couldnt go through with it. I turned it off. I can live with that.

I know, I don't know how someone could watch someone else die like that. It would freak me out too much. I would be haunted by the vision.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:54 pm

Nomad;672688 wrote: I started watching the video of so damn insane's hanging but I couldnt go through with it. I turned it off. I can live with that.

"So Damn Insane"...that was excellent, Nomad. :wah:

NotToday;672712 wrote: I know, I don't know how someone could watch someone else die like that. It would freak me out too much. I would be haunted by the vision.

I watched it because I wanted to see him die for his evil ways. Also I'd never seen a hanging before except in movies. And yes, it was a haunting vision and should have been regardless of who it was. I even felt a bit sorry- not for him but for what his life could have been had he been a decent person.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:45 pm

excellent reasoning, minks.

I've never thought that people should be forced to watch murder just because they condone it. (yes I chose my words specifically :wah:) We all crap and we need to dispose of it but we don't make people watch the sewage treatment plants on tv either. There are likely a number of good reasons to not allow public executions. Making it entertainment would feed vigilantism.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:16 pm

Why do so many see a public execution as entertainment? I know in the old days the whole town gathered at the square to see it done and cheered when it was over but I would hope we've come a ways since then.

I'm not sure I can agree with avoiding it if you support it. I think if a person supports it that they should have the backbone to see it carried out. Otherwise it seems hypocritical. This is my opinion.

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:34 pm

RedGlitter;672732 wrote: I think if a person supports it that they should have the backbone to see it carried out. Otherwise it seems hypocritical.

Almost the difference of pulling the trigger or having someone do it for you.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:48 am

koan;672722 wrote: excellent reasoning, minks.

I've never thought that people should be forced to watch murder just because they condone it. (yes I chose my words specifically :wah:)
I agree, but making it available is not forcing people to watch.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:41 am

true Acc, but it was earlier implied that anyone who supports the Death Penalty should have to watch it. That's what I was responding to.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:23 pm

koan;672901 wrote: true Acc, but it was earlier implied that anyone who supports the Death Penalty should have to watch it. That's what I was responding to.

If that was me, I wasn't saying that a supporter should be forced by anyone to watch an execution...only that they should make themselves watch it...that they should know what it is they're supporting. After all, it is killing. Justifiably, arguably, but still a killing. I watched Hussein for many reasons and one of them was to "put my money where my mouth is." Otherwise it would have seemed to me like I was talking out of both sides of my mouth.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:44 pm

koan;672901 wrote: true Acc, but it was earlier implied that anyone who supports the Death Penalty should have to watch it. That's what I was responding to.
I just imagined a scenario where once a jury recommended the death penalty, voters would decide if the convict would die or spend life in prison. Those voting for it would definitely be taking responsibility for his death.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:03 pm

Accountable;673174 wrote: I just imagined a scenario where once a jury recommended the death penalty, voters would decide if the convict would die or spend life in prison. Those voting for it would definitely be taking responsibility for his death.

Would it be that or would the criminal be responsible for his own death? If he knew the consequence, and did his crime anyway...his death should be his own doing, IMO.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:06 pm

RedGlitter;673179 wrote: Would it be that or would the criminal be responsible for his own death? If he knew the consequence, and did his crime anyway...his death should be his own doing, IMO.
Yeh, the phrasing was a bit off. The voter would be taking responsibility for his opinion. That still doesn't look right, though.

A little help over here??

JacksDad · Post by **JacksDad** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:10 pm

Accountable;673174 wrote: I just imagined a scenario where once a jury recommended the death penalty, voters would decide if the convict would die or spend life in prison. Those voting for it would definitely be taking responsibility for his death.

Isn't that already done by voting for the death penalty and trusting the jury?

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:12 pm

RedGlitter;673179 wrote: Would it be that or would the criminal be responsible for his own death? If he knew the consequence, and did his crime anyway...his death should be his own doing, IMO.

Except not everyone gets the death penalty for the same crime. That's part of the problem. Inconsistent application. Black people die more often.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:31 pm

JacksDad;673183 wrote: Isn't that already done by voting for the death penalty and trusting the jury?
Just the opposite. We're giving the responsibility away. Don't blame me, I wasn't on the jury. This way the jury is simply making the recommendation. We wouldn't be voting on an idea, but on the very life of an individual.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:32 pm

koan;673184 wrote: Except not everyone gets the death penalty for the same crime. That's part of the problem. Inconsistent application. Black people die more often.
That statement is too simplistic, especially for you.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:43 pm

Accountable;673192 wrote: That statement is too simplistic, especially for you.

:-2

How so? True I didn't burden it with statistics but are you doubting that the statistics will show a black man is more likely to get the death penalty for the same crime as a white man?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:51 pm

koan;673184 wrote: Except not everyone gets the death penalty for the same crime. That's part of the problem. Inconsistent application. Black people die more often.

That may be true but I don't see how it can be remedied. The crux is that we're relying on humans to judge other humans (what else have we got?) and those dark aspects of humanity (ie: racism) are going to come into play. What is our alternative? Just to keep housing murderers and such because we can't rely on ourselves to accurately convict or acquit? I don't know the answer.