Extradition to Equatorial Guinea

[spot]

Strangely, nobody has mentioned Simon Mann on FG so far.

For the purposes of discussion, assume the word "allegedly" appears at the end of every sentence in the thread. I'm not going to bother writing it.

This chap's been in prison in Zimbabwe for the last three years and he's about to be deported to Equatorial Guinea. He was arrested in Zimbabwe on his way to attempt a coup d'etat against Equatorial Guinea. He and his friends were at Harare in the process of arming themselves to the teeth, and fully intent on killing people when they arrived at their final destination.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6918833.stm discusses his current position, and the likelihood that he'll end up with a 30 year jail term if he's presented there for trial.

Does anyone on the planet have the smallest scintilla of sympathy for this unacceptable face of British mercenary greed?

[gmc]

spot;669045 wrote: Strangely, nobody has mentioned Simon Mann on FG so far.

For the purposes of discussion, assume the word "allegedly" appears at the end of every sentence in the thread. I'm not going to bother writing it.

This chap's been in prison in Zimbabwe for the last three years and he's about to be deported to Equatorial Guinea. He was arrested in Zimbabwe on his way to attempt a coup d'etat against Equatorial Guinea. He and his friends were at Harare in the process of arming themselves to the teeth, and fully intent on killing people when they arrived at their final destination.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6918833.stm discusses his current position, and the likelihood that he'll end up with a 30 year jail term if he's presented there for trial.

Does anyone on the planet have the smallest scintilla of sympathy for this unacceptable face of British mercenary greed?


No and yes. He seems to be getting dealt with more harshly than the others involved. I can't help suspecting that has his name also been Thatcher he would be released by now.

[spot]

Zimbabwe's court of appeal seems to have paid attention to ForumGarden in making its decision.

Simon Mann arrived in Equatorial Guinea this week.

The BBC has a report and a discussion.

[grh]

What exactly is your stand on this person being placed in a prison without them guaranteeing his protection or rehabilitation?

you are completely opposed to anyone just killing the idiot as punishment, aren't you

[gmc]

Jester;770569 wrote: In the circles I ran with, it was a given that if you were caught in a foriegn country armed to the teeth you were on your own, no one in my country would claim you. It was hoped that a deal could be brokered and that the country you were captured in would want you alive rather than dead or worse. 30 years in a foriegn prison and my main focus would be escape at all cost.

I have had dealings with the mercenary system before and on occasion I suppose I could have been termed a mercenary but when I did it it was for principle not for money, glad I never got caught.

When you make a decision to operate outside the law you get whatever type of law that comes your way.

If you're british enough Spot go organize a retrieval party, thats his best hope.


It's not so much that he got caught and imprisoned that is the issue. There's not a lot of sympathy for mercenaries if they get caught in a foreign country. It's more that the son a Maggie Thatcher was also involved and got away with it, presumably because of hid connections.

[spot]

Jester;770569 wrote: If you're british enough Spot go organize a retrieval party, thats his best hope.I'm sure he has friends better placed to do that than I.

The mercenary company he helped found with Tim Spicer, Sandline, for example, morphed into Aegis Defence Services, the firm we discussed a while ago in relation to trophy videos of Western mercenaries in Iraq shooting up passing traffic for the hell of it, since they're accountable to nobody at all. I think the preferred term these days is "contractor" but I bet the reason people still sign up is because they enjoy killing foreigners without any legal restraint or consequence. Oh, and the pay - they get paid for doing it.

Sandline's old website is still on the web, their meta keyword list tells it all. sandline, conflict, executive outcomes, military, coup, mercenary, revolution, army, junta, war, rebellion, security, sierra leone, africa, defense. Welcome to Sandline International.

Whoever wrote the official Aegis website has a sense of humour. The keywords he used to bubble the site up the Google rankings are "aegis world private security company tim spicer trophy video". I bet Tim Spicer doesn't know that.

[spot]

grh;769706 wrote: What exactly is your stand on this person being placed in a prison without them guaranteeing his protection or rehabilitation?

you are completely opposed to anyone just killing the idiot as punishment, aren't youI'd be unhappy to hear that he'd died in jail.

My position on imprisonment is that nobody should ever be released from any prison until the prison itself certifies them to be rehabilitated; that no money is ever given to any prison other than for releasing prisoners; that the certifying prison gets fined every time a prisoner offends after release; and that prison shareholders should have no limited liability to allow them to escape bad short-term decision-making. That's completely simple, it's entirely aimed at developing the most effective rehabilitation programs, it has no punishment or deterrent aspect to imprisonment. Combined with an efficient police force guaranteeing the detection, identification and prosecution of all criminals it would stop crime dead in its tracks. These aren't unattainable ideals, they're targets that nobody seems to want to pursue.

Simon Mann is a danger to the public. Nothing suggests to me that he would stay away from planning further murders if he were currently at liberty. He's in jail for planning murders which he was on his way to commit when he was arrested. General Mattis ought to be alongside him for the same offence if it comes to that - ineptitude is no excuse if the consequence is dead civilians at wedding parties.

[grh]

spot;770680 wrote: I'd be unhappy to hear that he'd died in jail.

My position on imprisonment is that nobody should ever be released from any prison until the prison itself certifies them to be rehabilitated; that no money is ever given to any prison other than for releasing prisoners; that the certifying prison gets fined every time a prisoner offends after release; and that prison shareholders should have no limited liability to allow them to escape bad short-term decision-making. That's completely simple, it's entirely aimed at developing the most effective rehabilitation programs, it has no punishment or deterrent aspect to imprisonment. Combined with an efficient police force guaranteeing the detection, identification and prosecution of all criminals it would stop crime dead in its tracks. These aren't unattainable ideals, they're targets that nobody seems to want to pursue.

Simon Mann is a danger to the public. Nothing suggests to me that he would stay away from planning further murders if he were currently at liberty. He's in jail for planning murders which he was on his way to commit when he was arrested. General Mattis ought to be alongside him for the same offence if it comes to that - ineptitude is no excuse if the consequence is dead civilians at wedding parties.


So if prison is a business though, what would you do, as a shareholder, with ones like this that you don't see much chance of him changing his ways? Or are we talking a lottery system so that they can't reject a potential prisoner?

You'd be unhappy to hear that he died in jail. Is he allowed to suffer?

[spot]

No, he's not allowed to suffer, he's there (in my proposed setting, that is) to be rehabilitated.

Prisons (in this model) can't pick and choose any more than state schools can, they're not selective entry. The shareholder's profit increases as his skill at genuine rehabilitation increases. The faster he achieves that goal the less it costs him in feeding, clothing and cell provision. The more slapdash he is in his releases, the more he'll be penalized by subsequent recidivism.

There's only one sentence for breaking the law, and that's to be sent to jail. Every sentence is as long or as short as the prison decides it needs to be before they take the chance on claiming their payment.

My intention, ultimately, is to get society to trim back on what they define as criminal behaviour. It's all plus and no minus, this scheme I'm offering.

[gmc]

Jester;770799 wrote: Can you blame him? Its my experience that the type of folks that do this mercenary thing consider themselves beyond the law, or they consider that there is no law where they are going so its whoever is the strongest. Its all in the connection you have after the fact. If it were my son and I had any sort of pull Id use it.

I think we need to realize that these companies will continue to rise in the light of terror orgs doing the same. If I were Chevron and my guys needed to survey land and some group shot at them Id hire a security detail to protect my men.

I'm not an advocate for this, but I think its a reality.


He was part of a plot to overthrow a government not to guard an oil installation.

Leaving aside what you think of the govt he was trying to overthrow it is wrong that one of the plotters gets away with it because of whose son he is and the rest don't. Never mind whose son he is, that anyone should be above the law is wrong as a matter of principle.

[spot]

Jester;770883 wrote: But in my opinion murderers are not rehabilitative, and they remove themselves from society by their actions. If your not going to execute them under capitol punishment then they need to be contained on an island/prison and left to themselves for the reminder of thier natural life. Let them fend for themselves.By all means make that so in the US, people there do seem to have a different approach to moral absolutes there. England has a different culture.

[spot]

Jester;770909 wrote: So you'd agree to that instead of capital punishment? I am rather surprized again.For the States? Whatever suits your local conditions, far be it from me to interfere in your internal arrangements. To whatever extent my proposal has merit I'm sure it could be adapted.

My opposition to capital punishment is universal and based on the irreversible nature of the punishment, given the existence of guilty verdicts and subsequent executions against defendants who were subsequently shown beyond reasonable doubt to have been convicted on mistaken evidence. Doctor Crippen springs to mind.

[Bryn Mawr]

Jester;770883 wrote: Hmm I must think on this more but im not opposed to it after my first thought.

But in my opinion murderers are not rehabilitative, and they remove themselves from society by their actions. If your not going to execute them under capitol punishment then they need to be contained on an island/prison and left to themselves for the reminder of thier natural life. Let them fend for themselves.


This pre-supposes that all murderers are the same, with the same motivation and the same mentality.

I'd suggest that a woman who plans and carries out the murder of her husband after years of abuse is of little further danger to society compared to a sociopath who kills for fun.

There are many cases of murderers who, at the end of their sentences, have been released into society and led useful and crime free lives thereafter.

[gmc]

Jester;770906 wrote: I fully agree with you it is wrong and unjust, my point is that the whole thing was done outside the law, that some get punished and some dont is also outside the law. There is no justice period.

But thats the nature of mercenary companies. I hadn't even ventured a thought into the ligitimacy of the country in question.

GMC as usual we agree God knows how we keep doing that when we come from opposing ideologies.


I suspect we would agree a lot in principle and really disagree a lot on the means. We both live in liberal democracies so there is not that much difference.

[spot]

Simon Mann appears to have started naming names, particularly the otherwise pointless child of that Thatcher woman.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7320790.stm

He told a British television station recently that the plot did exist, but he was not the driving force behind it. The ex-SAS officer also alleged Sir Mark Thatcher was "part of the team".

In the past, Sir Mark has always claimed he was an unwitting conspirator and that as far as he knew, he was helping finance an air ambulance business in West Africa. Well he would say that, wouldn't he.

[spot]

Now that the trial's over and a 34 year sentence passed, one hopes an intergovernmental agreement can be reached for Mr Mann to serve his sentence in a UK jail. Given that Mr Mann was on his way to Equatorial Guinea with the intention of murdering people I can't think many people would regard the 34 year term excessive. An exchange agreement to allow him to serve the sentence within reach of friends and family in the UK makes sense only if the agreement kept him in a high security jail where he would be less likely to abscond or be broken out by his adventurous one-time colleagues. Parole for the second half of his sentence might even be acceptable so long as he's considered genuinely penitent.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7470762.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7493717.stm

One hopes Equatorial Guinea has issued an international arrest warrant for Sir Mark Thatcher, given all the new evidence that's come to hand.

One hopes that a part of any agreement with the UK for Mr Mann serving his sentence here would be a guarantee to extradite the plotters still at large if they came within UK jurisdiction.

[spot]

Last week, Ely Calil, the London-based oil trader named by Mann as the "cardinal of the plot", broke his silence. For four years he flatly denied any involvement, but on Tuesday he told the Daily Telegraph that he supported only "democratic change" in Equatorial Guinea, and had financed plans by Severo Moto, an exiled opponent of President Obiang, to return. "There was no coup plot," he said, and Sir Mark had "absolutely nothing" to do with it. Mann and his mercenaries were simply hired to protect Moto.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 66376.html

Ely Calil is a lying liar. Simon Mann and his mercenaries were hired to commit murder in Equatorial Guinea.

Sir Mark, who has a considerable fortune from various business deals, also banks in the Channel Islands. But if he is seeking to move from his present base, a heavily fortified mansion in southern Spain, it is not to be nearer his money. Though he is safe from Equatorial Guinea's attempts to extradite him, he is said to fear being spirited away illegally, and believes a kidnap squad would be more conspicuous in Guernsey. However, his choice of bolt-holes is limited since his criminal conviction in South Africa. The US will not have him, nor will Monaco or Switzerland – so this small island seems his best bet.Sir Mark Thatcher is a lying liar too.

Neither of them should be anywhere other than Equatorial Guinea where their lies can be tested in court. Besides, state-sponsored kidnap squads were legitimized when Adolf Eichmann was snatched in 1960 and Mordechai Vanunu in 1986, weren't they?

There's a good background article on how the proposed coup appeared from the fringes at http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 61990.html

[spot]

A little follow-up from "Andalucia’s Fortnightly News Publication, The Olive Press" on the subject of that lying liar Sir Mark Thatcher:The son of former UK PM Margaret Thatcher rarely leaves his £3million bolthole in exclusive El Madronal, which has round-the-clock security. He has installed a series of high-tech security systems in the home, that is owned by a former school friend Stephen Humberstone.

But now his days are numbered after Humberstone ordered him to leave the home he has rented since 2005 over unpaid bills. Claiming he is three months in arrears to the tune of over 20,000 euros, Mr. Humberstone this week reportedly plans to serve court papers on him via the San Pedro courts.

“I want him off my property as soon as possible. If you see him, punch him in the face for me" Mr Humberstone, a London-based developer, said. “I have absolutely no idea why a man as wealthy as him, who can still drive a Porsche, cannot pay his rent. All I can think is that he has no money. After talking to Mark I get the feeling he is receiving an allowance from his elderly mother".

[...] Guinea will launch prosecution proceedings against Sir Mark this week. Its attorney general claims Sir Mark supplied aircraft as well as cash. “We will use all legal means to bring Mark Thatcher to face trial,” he said. Alarmingly for Thatcher there are an estimated 120 international Mafia gangs operating on the Costa del Sol, each capable of undertaking kidnap plots.

http://www.theolivepress.es/2008/07/14/ ... hrow-plot/

[spot]

I missed whatever "British Weekly" this started in, here's the account I saw:In an interview on Sunday Nguema told a British weekly that if Britain arrested Sir Mark Thatcher and Ely Calil, Mann could be sent back to a British jail. He also said that Mann's sentence could be reduced if he continues to "collaborate" with Equatorial Guinea authorities. "I'll tell you what it will take for him to be allowed to leave my country," said Nguema. "If the British police arrest the people we say were also involved – Ely Calil, Mark Thatcher and others – and bring them to court then maybe we will transfer Simon to an English jail so he can be close to his family.”

[...] Nguema said that since Mann’s incarceration in Black Beach prison in the country’s capital of Malabo, British police had visited Equatorial Guinea three times gathering evidence and Mann had "collaborated brilliantly" with them. "Simon Mann has collaborated with our government and the British police and if he continues to behave so well, then yes, we will reduce his sentence," the president said. Police in London confirmed visits to Equatorial Guinea, the paper said.

He also claimed that Calil had made "overtures" to Equatorial Guinea in the past month with "a view to reaching some kind of understanding", adding: "We are not sure yet exactly what he wants".

http://www.zimonline.co.za/Article.aspx?ArticleId=3825

That's a sackful of ferrets all wriggling, I've no idea what's behind it. "British police had visited Equatorial Guinea three times gathering evidence"? That's extraordinary.

[K.Snyder]

I have a huge problem with a 100% vote to "...have their hides nailed to the wall" yet "More than 60 men arrested with him - most of them South African citizens of Angolan origin - were released in 2005 after serving a year's sentence in Zimbabwe."...http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6918833.stm

A years punishment for others involved and people want to "...have their hides nailed to the wall"?...Come on here people something isn't right...

For Christs sake I can hear those people shouting in the courtrooms with their fists raised clinched in the air...

I need to read more about this story but as for now I'm off to bed...

Good night!

[spot]

There's the principals - the ones who hoped to form the new government;

There's the management team set up to achieve their objective;

There's the financiers investing in the project;

There's the foreign investors hoping to get better contract terms from a new government in exchange for facilitating the coup;

There's the officers who've been there and done that and know how;

and then, unlike all of those murderers, there are the 60 foot-solder recruits who served a year's sentence in Zimbabwe, whose hides didn't need nailing to the wall but whose wrists needed slapping.

[Nomad]

Im familiar with this group. I agree with Jester. Thats the life theyve chosen and if they get caught why would anyone fight for them ?

[K.Snyder]

I have a huge problem with peoples all fighting for the same cause yet only a handful of the incompetents get "...their hides nailed to the wall". There's something strenuously wrong with such an ideology otherwise the system "you've" set up is grounds for incompetence.

Where is the line drawn from human instinct and rightful crime prevention and retribution? That is the question.

[spot]

K.Snyder;1050043 wrote: I have a huge problem with peoples all fighting for the same cause yet only a handful of the incompetents get "...their hides nailed to the wall". There's something strenuously wrong with such an ideology otherwise the system "you've" set up is grounds for incompetence.

Where is the line drawn from human instinct and rightful crime prevention and retribution? That is the question.


And what is the judicial system of Equatorial Guinea to do in order to right this? They have the officer on the ground in jail. They can't prosecute the financiers because the financiers aren't yet in their jurisdiction. The same goes for the investors in the scheme and the managers who brought all of the resources together. This isn't a question of ideology, it's a question of power. Nobody is being incompetent, some people are protected by their nationalities and their own governments.

At least justice is being discussed and the criminals are being held up to the scrutiny of the general public.

[K.Snyder]

spot;1050123 wrote: And what is the judicial system of Equatorial Guinea to do in order to right this? They have the officer on the ground in jail. They can't prosecute the financiers because the financiers aren't yet in their jurisdiction. The same goes for the investors in the scheme and the managers who brought all of the resources together. This isn't a question of ideology, it's a question of power. Nobody is being incompetent, some people are protected by their nationalities and their own governments.

At least justice is being discussed and the criminals are being held up to the scrutiny of the general public.


I was speaking more so in regards to statement.

What's to keep the leader of the outfit from appearing as a grunt man only to be released a year later to do it again?...

No wonder Osama Bin Laden hasn't been caught yet. He looks like a grunt.

[spot]

K.Snyder;1050162 wrote: What's to keep the leader of the outfit from appearing as a grunt man only to be released a year later to do it again?...Because he's well known for previous acts in the same line and his photo's easily downloaded and there had been more newspaper articles about him and his associates than there were about Churchill. They scarcely operated in the shadows, these people. They just lie a lot.

[K.Snyder]

spot;1050206 wrote: Because he's well known for previous acts in the same line and his photo's easily downloaded and there had been more newspaper articles about him and his associates than there were about Churchill. They scarcely operated in the shadows, these people. They just lie a lot.


That's very well with this specific instance but it just seems to me that the statement being made, philosophically speaking, in a doctrine making allowances for so called "evilness" doesn't serve even the simplest of logic justice.

I either give too much credit to people and their intelligence or not enough.

How anyone can take up arms without knowing what it is they're fighting for(Please lets not turn this discussion into anything other than what it is -- For the sake of random implication) is not only beyond my fortuitous notions but is divinely immoral.

I don't know why there would be acceptances given such a creed. I cannot understand it, and I'm not sorry for it.

What's left is the ignorant being made as sacrifice. I take nothing back for having said that.

[spot]

The financiers are doing it for a high return on a risky investment, the managers are doing it to steal oilfields and make a huge profit, the mercenaries are doing it for pay. There's a common thread to those motives.

[K.Snyder]

spot;1050224 wrote: The financiers are doing it for a high return on a risky investment, the managers are doing it to steal oilfields and make a huge profit, the mercenaries are doing it for pay. There's a common thread to those motives.


Predestined judgments within any judicial system, and their primary virtue being conservativeness to romanticize alternative punishment, not only is grounds for incompetence but is morally wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Why all sentences are discussed before a trial ever commences is beyond me. People are too afraid to suggest leniency yet too afraid to incur irrevocable punishments.

People are either meeting a quota by virtue of leniency or by virtue of unrighteous law.

Ah yes, money.

Money all intertwined into law in the same way it influences those who break it. The common ground being moral justification and those that have the power to either preclude it or abolish it.

I don't know anyone that would suggest money is due justification to murder so I couldn't for the life of me figure out why there are separate punishments within a crime harbored by all those convicted. It goes against my moral logic.

[spot]

I'm not a judicial system but even so, what have I said that suggests I'm pre-judging any trial that might occur or that the courts of Equatorial Guinea have prejudged any case? I want these people tried on the evidence available. There's more than enough available evidence to warrant a trial.

Different jurisdictions have different legal codes, I don't know that of Equatorial Guinea. In Britain, along with lesser charges, they'd all be up on a charge of conspiracy to murder. Obviously there are different sentences for the same crime, there are different degrees of culpability. In England, if found guilty, they'd all be sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum recommended term before any parole hearing could sit. The minimum recommended terms would vary depending on the judge's view of their actions.

[K.Snyder]

spot;1050242 wrote: I'm not a judicial system but even so, what have I said that suggests I'm pre-judging any trial that might occur or that the courts of Equatorial Guinea have prejudged any case? I want these people tried on the evidence available. There's more than enough available evidence to warrant a trial. I don't believe you have...I was more so speaking about those who do...I was hinting at my disgust of things such as "plea bargaining" etc... etc... from which is enough to make me want to puke! "You're" either guilty of a crime or you're not!...That's the way I see it...The crime should never wholeheartedly dictate the sentences that are suggested before the trial commences. Never!...It's grounds for incompetence and not only is it unpredictable the outcome but it does nothing in the eyes of crime prevention the way I see it.

spot;1050242 wrote:

Different jurisdictions have different legal codes, I don't know that of Equatorial Guinea. In Britain, along with lesser charges, they'd all be up on a charge of conspiracy to murder. Obviously there are different sentences for the same crime, there are different degrees of culpability. In England, if found guilty, they'd all be sentenced to life imprisonment with a minimum recommended term before any parole hearing could sit. The minimum recommended terms would vary depending on the judge's view of their actions. Well if everyone did the same the world would be a much better place......:wah:...

The "different degrees" would ultimately have to act as a deterrent for me to think that lesser punishments to criminals involved in the same crime would be prudent. This case specifically I'd have to know about every last detail involving the case before I were to give what I personally feel is a rightful judgment...

I do know one thing's for sure, an that's "They should have their hides nailed to the wall" compared to "...released in 2005 after serving a year's sentence in Zimbabwe." is far to great of a gradient as far as I'm concerned.

People not knowing how they're involved in crimes is a completely different story.

It's like someone driving another to a bank so that they can rob it only the robber gets a more lenient sentence because the driver provided the other robber with funding to make it happen.

[spot]

K.Snyder;1050251 wrote: It's like someone driving another to a bank so that they can rob it only the robber gets a more lenient sentence because the driver provided the other robber with funding to make it happen.We get cases like that in the UK - the guy being driven to the bank is quite often found innocent because his family was being held hostage at the time. He quite often holds the bank's keys.

[K.Snyder]

spot;1050253 wrote: We get cases like that in the UK - the guy being driven to the bank is quite often found innocent because his family was being held hostage at the time. He quite often holds the bank's keys.


I know a couple of people who have robbed places.

If I were to ever feel the need to rob a bank and I'm driving I'll just tell the police I was held hostage and be let go.

I'll be robbing again in no time. ...

[spot]

K.Snyder;1050258 wrote: I know a couple of people who have robbed places.

If I were to ever feel the need to rob a bank and I'm driving I'll just tell the police I was held hostage and be let go.

I'll be robbing again in no time. ...


It's not a safe defence in the USA. Poor Patty Hearst was in exactly that position and she was hammered by the courts.

[K.Snyder]

spot;1050264 wrote: It's not a safe defence in the USA. Poor Patty Hearst was in exactly that position and she was hammered by the courts.


Patty Hearst willingly made up her mind to do the things she did. This makes her a candidate for ignorance and should be prevented from associating herself with "free" society because she's a danger to it. Whether it be through a psych ward or jail I could care less just so long as people like her are refrained from accessibility to anything that can harm other living life forms. She blatantly burst out of one of those vehicles brandishing a loaded assault rifle and while having the chance to escape she willingly chose to stay and potentially murder.

[K.Snyder]

I recently seen a program on television portraying the likes of two people willingly selling handguns illegally only for the "buyers having made the attempt to murder them" whilst "trying to rob them".

As it turns out one of the "two sellers" killed "his friend" after pulling out his illegal handgun and "shooting it randomly trying to escape".

The person was let go because "he acted in self defense" and the "buyers" were never captured.

[wildhorses]

K.Snyder;1050272 wrote: Patty Hearst willingly made up her mind to do the things she did. This makes her a candidate for ignorance and should be prevented from associating herself with "free" society because she's a danger to it. Whether it be through a psych ward or jail I could care less just so long as people like her are refrained from accessibility to anything that can harm other living life forms. She blatantly burst out of one of those vehicles brandishing a loaded assault rifle and while having the chance to escape she willingly chose to stay and potentially murder.


That's right. For one thing no one was holding her family. And for another thing I always wondered why she could not just turn that weapon on her "kidnappers".

[spot]

K.Snyder;1050272 wrote: Patty Hearst willingly made up her mind to do the things she did. This makes her a candidate for ignorance and should be prevented from associating herself with "free" society because she's a danger to it. Whether it be through a psych ward or jail I could care less just so long as people like her are refrained from accessibility to anything that can harm other living life forms. She blatantly burst out of one of those vehicles brandishing a loaded assault rifle and while having the chance to escape she willingly chose to stay and potentially murder.


The subject headings which discuss why are Trauma Bonding and Stockholm syndrome. She's not the only person placed in that sort of position - "blindfolded, imprisoned in a narrow closet and physically and sexually abused" - who have achieved a level of safety by bonding with their abductors. I think you need to ask which party put the other into a position where it was go mad that way or die.

[K.Snyder]

spot;1050278 wrote: The subject headings which discuss why are Trauma Bonding and Stockholm syndrome. She's not the only person placed in that sort of position - "blindfolded, imprisoned in a narrow closet and physically and sexually abused" - who have achieved a level of safety by bonding with their abductors. I think you need to ask which party put the other into a position where it was go mad that way or die.


Why did Patty Hearst brandish a loaded assault weapon, among other things, and completely have the ability to use it effectively in respect to her escape and choose not to?...

And I'm sorry I hadn't seen any facts that "Patty Hearst had been physically and sexually abused".

In her trial, which commenced on January 15, 1976, Hearst's attorney, F. Lee Bailey, claimed that Hearst had been blindfolded, imprisoned in a narrow closet and physically and sexually abused. The claim that her actions were the result of a concerted brainwashing program was central to her defense. (Hearst's actions have also been attributed to Stockholm syndrome, in which hostages sympathize with the aims of their captors.) Bailey also argued that she had been coerced or intimidated into taking part in the bank robbery.Patty Hearst - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Bailey...argued" her attorney. Was the only line of defense having been taken after Patty Hearst had blatantly displayed her interest to stay with those people by "...wielding an M1 Carbine while robbing the Sunset District branch of the Hibernia Bank at 1450 Noriega Street in San Francisco." and making no attempt what-so-ever to escape. Patty Hearst - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As I've said the "brainwashing" clause is left to be sacrificial because those that are brainwashed are too ignorant to be trusted in having the "accessibility to anything that can harm other living life forms".

[spot]

Slightly more progess has been announced:CPS to decide on Mark Thatcher 'wonga coup' charges

By Mark Hollingsworth and Ian Gallagher

Last updated at 10:00 PM on 17th January 2009

Scotland Yard detectives investigating the failed 'wonga' coup in Equatorial Guinea have sent a file on the case to the Crown Prosecution Service.

Officials are now studying the documents, said to contain a lengthy affidavit from British mercenary Simon Mann, jailed for his part in the 2004 plot to overthrow the oil-rich nation's government.

They will then decide whether to charge businessmen Ely Calil and Sir Mark Thatcher, who Mann claims played a key role in orchestrating the abortive plot.

CPS to decide on Mark Thatcher 'wonga coup' charges | Mail Online

I have no confidence whatever that the CPS will do the right thing and fling the book at these greed-driven killers but who knows, maybe there really is justice at the end of the rainbow.

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None of the following surmises are necessarily true but they've all been hinted at in the press this week.

A bunch of "Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta" (MEND) mercenaries in speedboats attacked the capital of Equatorial Guinea yesterday. Some of the attackers "have been arrested, still others have taken flight. Those who have been arrested are currently being interrogated". MEND, Nigeria's main militant group, denied involvement.

Simon Mann's 2004 attack team was partly recruited from MEND. "Sources close to militant groups in the Niger Delta say some members of MEND were recruited and trained to take part in a 2004 coup attempt in Equatorial Guinea but were intercepted before they arrived on the island".

Simon Mann wasn't necessarily in jail on Tuesday, speculation places him in the capital. "Mann was treated for a hernia at the private Clinic Guadaloupe in Malabo last week. It is not clear whether he has been returned to Black Beach prison, but a heavy guard was put outside the health centre after the attack".

None of the usual suspects in Spain or London have yet been rounded up for questioning. All have denied involvement in what has the possible appearance of a rescue attempt.

Equatorial Guinea hit by 'Dogs of War' attack - Telegraph

E Guinea repulsed attack by Nigerian rebels: minister