Why Should I Sympathize?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:15 am

The local news reported that an SUV carrying approx. 19 illegal aliens flipped while evading capture, killing three.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/ ... d9651.html

The story includes a rundown of similar deaths. The idiots went through the heart of downtown! It's a wonder more didn't die.

~~~~~~~~~

Here's another story that tries to pull at the heartstrings.

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/educa ... rint.shtml

~~~~~~~~~

Our front door is wide open to anyone who wants to come, either to visit or live here permanently, either as citizens or as resident aliens. Why in Hell should I sympathize with these criminals?? These people are no different from burglars; they sneak in through a window. raid the refrigerator, then insist on a bed to sleep off the meal! Oh sure, some offer to clean up after themselves, but that hardly negates the FACT that these criminals broke laws to get here.

There are so damned many agendas muddying the waters in this debate that it's infuriating.

Somebody tell me ... Why should I sympathize with these criminals?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:35 am

Morning Acc.

You'll probably know that I agree with you. However, you also probably know that the "other side" will tell you how hard life is for these unfortunate "immigrants" and how we should have nothing but compassion for them, because after all, doesn't Liberty say "give me me your tired, your poor?" And weren't our ancestors immigrants too?

We'll be told they're human just like us, (and they are) and that we would be doing the same thing if we were in their shoes.

I don't know, maybe it's easy for us to say because we are the lucky ones who live in a country others want to come to. Maybe we should have more compassion for the human factor and less grievance toward the criminal intent.

But I too find it hard to sympathize with people who came here with wanton disregard for the proper channels.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:25 am

If you want closed borders, have closed borders. If you want legal residents, expel all illegal residents. Neither is rocket science. I'd much rather you had closed borders and legal residents, you should have arranged it decades ago. Since you didn't, get on with it as soon as possible.

SlipStream · Post by **SlipStream** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:33 am

every1 seems 2b headin here 2 the uk. :-5

Sweet Tooth · Post by **Sweet Tooth** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:47 am

I was reading the paper yesterday morning about a similar issue- someone had written to the editor saying that everyone who thought that Mexico had a horrible economy was crazy! Apparently, their economy is comparable to South Korea, except the Koreans work harder- interesting then, why do they all want to come here? I really think this issue is a no brainer- anyone who is here illegaly is a criminal and should be treated as one- I get a ticket for expired registration and these people live off of that money! Bull:mad:

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:14 am

SlipStream;657161 wrote: every1 seems 2b headin here 2 the uk. :-5

Mostly legally, SlipStream. I'd guess that less than one in ten immigrants to the UK overstays their valid visa or has no valid papers to begin with. That doesn't seem comparable with the US problem.

The UK has had a net migrant inflow since about 1992. Before then it was a net outflow. If you add it up from, say, 1945 to now, the country's lost about one and a half million people overall to migration.

Post by **spot** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:57 am

Sorry about that - straying off topic. Bad form. Where were we?Accountable;657144 wrote: Somebody tell me ... Why should I sympathize with these criminals?Ah. Nunc lento sonitu dicunt, morieris, and all that. Quite so.Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it. Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels as gold in a mine and be of no use to him; but this bell that tells me of his affliction digs out and applies that gold to me, if by this consideration of another's dangers I take mine own into contemplation and so secure myself by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.Not bad, for a cleric, that.

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:58 am

I am saddened by any loss of life ,even an illegal immigrant that dies has a mother ,a brother a sister that weeps and wails in grief for their loved ones that they will never hold again to be honest I do care and a lot

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:25 am

I agree with Jimbo, loss of life is regretable, no matter what you viewpoint is.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:42 am

ACC, I think you can have sympathy for the loss of lives without having any guilt for the circumstances that caused it.

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:48 am

YZGI;657248 wrote: ACC, I think you can have sympathy for the loss of lives without having any guilt for the circumstances that caused it.

thats what i meant to say

good post by a good guy :-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:21 pm

YZGI;657248 wrote: ACC, I think you can have sympathy for the loss of lives without having any guilt for the circumstances that caused it.
It was a stupid risk that was completely unecessary, except that the criminals couldn't be arsed taking the long way round - coming in the front door, to carry on my analogy.

No, I have no sympathy at all for the criminals that died. I have anger, quite a bit of anger. I reserve my sympathy for the children who are left behind, robbed of the food, love, and culture by the very ones responsible for providing it to them. Had these criminals modeled the respect they undoubtedly demand of their children, the families would still be whole.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:23 pm

AngelEyes82;657245 wrote: It's still a loss of life. It make me sad when anyone dies.. legal or Illegal. They still had a family. You that these Illegals had family back home that were depending on them to make life a little better. Now they can't.
Imagine how much better it might have been if they had gone about it the right way.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:33 pm

From the second link: "We don't accept a broken law that causes separation of families," says Richard Estrada, an associate pastor at Our Lady Queen of Angels Catholic Church in Los Angeles. "We will protect families, those in danger of being separated. ... We're doing what we think is the right, moral thing to do."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

No immigration law in the USA cases separation when broken. The adults choose to remain together and return to their home country, or they choose to separate -- just as they chose to break the law.

To stretch the point to the ridiculous, any broken law that requires incarceration causes separation of families. I doubt Brother Estrada will offer a convicted rapist sanctuary.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:18 pm

spot;657157 wrote: If you want closed borders, have closed borders. If you want legal residents, expel all illegal residents. Neither is rocket science. I'd much rather you had closed borders and legal residents, you should have arranged it decades ago. Since you didn't, get on with it as soon as possible.

Exactly. As for why you should sympathize; people lost their lives. Sympathize or don't; but if you have to ask why you should; then you won't.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:38 am

magenta flame;657689 wrote: Human nature and a commone right to survival does not make a person a criminal. Laws make people criminals. Breaking laws make people criminals. It's an important distinction.

magenta flame wrote: quite frankly if you cannot empathise or sympathise with a people you have no understanding of or the politics or circumstances that surround their being then it's more of a show on you, rather than a show of being a criminal or illegal alien or dying because of the circumstances they are in.I never said I don't empathize. I certainly empathize with someone who wants to come to the US to make a better life for himself and his family. We call it the American dream. It's a high ideal we all aspire to. The difference is that those people have made the decision to become burglars - breaking and entering to steal the dream, rather than working for it like everyone else.

magenta flame wrote: You're human and so are they. You just happen to be a lot more fortunet and therefore in a position to sympathise.

I call it "looking at the world, from inside the glasshouse."I am more fortunate in that I was born in the USA, that's true. And that's where it ends. Every one of those criminals could have walked the same path I have as an adult, had they made the decision to come across the border legally.

Yes, I'm human and so are they. I'm expected to pay the consequences of my decisions. Why shouldn't they?

Post by **spot** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:46 am

The sum of this seems to be that you feel no empathy toward anyone once they've broken the law.

If there's no common humanity then criminality equates to subhuman. Some people have short memories of where that leads.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:08 am

spot;657920 wrote: The sum of this seems to be that you feel no empathy toward anyone once they've broken the law.

If there's no common humanity then criminality equates to subhuman. Some people have short memories of where that leads.
And some people take judgments to extremes without enough proof.

I empathize with the criminals. They hear about all the opportunity across the border, and want only the best for their families. They hear about the people who go north and find good jobs, with enough money to pay to bring the rest of the family to the land of milk & honey. The temptation is great. For some, it's too great to bear.

Most who cross the border illegally are hard-working devout Catholics - family people. They are desperate to give their children better opportunities than they themselves have. Their desires, which were built upon responsibility to family, blind them to a very important part of that same responsibility: the responsibility to teach their children the importance of following the rules. The behavior they model is that rules are fine unless they get in your way.

They make a decision.

Decisions have consequences.

BTW, I don't feel sympathy if a snake handler gets bitten, either.

Post by **spot** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:26 am

Accountable;657939 wrote: I empathize with the criminals.Ah. I misunderstood what you meant by the following, then - the bit where you mention "difference" in the context of "those people". My bad.Accountable wrote: I never said I don't empathize. I certainly empathize with someone who wants to come to the US to make a better life for himself and his family. We call it the American dream. It's a high ideal we all aspire to. The difference is that those people have made the decision to become burglars - breaking and entering to steal the dream, rather than working for it like everyone else

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:12 am

I never meant to imply I consider them subhuman. Disrespectful, short-sighted, rash, even criminal; but they are human.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:24 am

Far Rider;658782 wrote: As far as needing cheap labor, let the chips fall where they may, but we should seal the borders instantly and deport every illegal moocher that gets caught here when they aint supposed to be.It's like watching a roomful of senile old women knitting bedsocks. Yes you're all agreed. Yes the borders should be closed. Yes everyone in the US who has no valid paperwork should be ejected. Make it happen, for goodness sake. Tighten your colostomy bags, find your zimmer frames and get it done. What on earth happened to America that everyone sits back and says "we have no influence", "we can't affect what Congress does". I think the truth is that the average American likes to complain about illegals in public when asked for fear of not displaying the roleplay machismo that's expected of him, but he wants to see the illegal workforce left unchanged too. You really want it stopped? Write and holler where it counts, with copies to the thread.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:29 am

I used to have these links in my sig, or ones just like them:

Write Your Representative here

Write Your Senator here

Google "My [name of state] legislators" to effect your state government.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:33 am

And don't forget to post a copy to the thread as well.

I would hope letters explaining why are more influential than those expressing an opinion. Rather like posts on ForumGarden, that.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:53 pm

Thank you Far. Is it allowed to write to multiple congresspersons whether they represent you or not?

Acc posted a link earlier on how to see the voting record, or at least the expressed attitude, of those in Congress. I'll go and read it for a while, I might find explanations of why things are as they are if I do that.

Later...

There seems to be the skeleton of a start toward emptying the land of illegally resident aliens, in the form of the CLEAR Act of 2007, HR 842 "To provide for enhanced Federal, State, and local assistance in the enforcement of the immigration laws, to amend the Immigration and Nationality Act, to authorize appropriations to carry out the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program, and for other purposes."

I just read it, at http://thomas.loc.gov/home/c110query.html

It's currently with the Committee on the Judiciary, having been referred to the Subcommittee on Immigration, Citizenship, Refugees, Border Security, and International Law. I know very little of the workings of your government but presumably emails to its members asking for early consideration would be appropriate, or it'll sink without trace. It'll probably sink without trace anyway. Still, the membership of the Subcommittee on Immigration, Citizenship, Refugees, Border Security, and International Law is at http://judiciary.house.gov/committeestr ... ommittee=4

I watched the Hearing on Comprehensive Immigration Reform: Government Perspectives on Immigration Statistics Video Webcast on http://judiciary.house.gov/oversight.aspx?ID=334 and a few things sprang to mind. First off, this word "immigrant" is so loosely bandied about. Half the time the Witness panel members used it as a label for non-citizens illegally working in the US, the other half of the time they used it as a label for non-citizens legally working in the US who were granted work permits and are on track for citizenship. Very rarely did they qualify their words to indicate that they weren't talking about the same group of people, I found that careless. I great deal of seeming contradiction would be eliminated if there were a deliberate attempt to use exact restrictive terminology rather than loose over-inclusive words.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:01 am

spot;660610 wrote: [...]

... a few things sprang to mind. First off, this word "immigrant" is so loosely bandied about. Half the time the Witness panel members used it as a label for non-citizens illegally working in the US, the other half of the time they used it as a label for non-citizens legally working in the US who were granted work permits and are on track for citizenship. Very rarely did they qualify their words to indicate that they weren't talking about the same group of people, I found that careless. I great deal of seeming contradiction would be eliminated if there were a deliberate attempt to use exact restrictive terminology rather than loose over-inclusive words.
Yup. Drives me up the wall to the point that I'm screaming at the TV. My beloved constantly asking me if I took my pill yet -- The blue one? are you sure?

That's the kind of thing that convinces me that they really do want us to view anyone who enters our country as the same -- that it's not important whether they jumped through all those silly customs hoops or swam across the Rio Grande (soon to be changed to Rio Bravo I'm sure, since that's what Mexico calls it). I'm just having a tough time trying to figure out why. :-5

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:16 am

Accountable;660667 wrote: Yup. Drives me up the wall to the point that I'm screaming at the TV. My beloved constantly asking me if I took my pill yet -- The blue one? are you sure?

That's the kind of thing that convinces me that they really do want us to view anyone who enters our country as the same -- that it's not important whether they jumped through all those silly customs hoops or swam across the Rio Grande (soon to be changed to Rio Bravo I'm sure, since that's what Mexico calls it). I'm just having a tough time trying to figure out why. :-5

I'll take a stab....do you think it could be because of political correctness? Like if we don't welcome them with reasonably open arms, these people who come from a bad situation, regardless of legality or not,that we are somehow denying they're human and PC doesn't permit anything like that. Could that be part of it?

Post by **spot** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:19 am

RedGlitter;660683 wrote: I'll take a stab....do you think it could be because of political correctness? Like if we don't welcome them with reasonably open arms, these people who come from a bad situation, regardless of legality or not,that we are somehow denying they're human and PC doesn't permit anything like that. Could that be part of it?
It's rather the reverse, associating illegality with the majority of US immigrants who had a perfectly blameless and legal transition into the country. There's people out there who just love to smear by association.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:17 am

Why should I sympathize with these criminals?

Because youre not a cold blooded hard edged person ?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:00 am

RedGlitter;660683 wrote: I'll take a stab....do you think it could be because of political correctness? Like if we don't welcome them with reasonably open arms, these people who come from a bad situation, regardless of legality or not,that we are somehow denying they're human and PC doesn't permit anything like that. Could that be part of it?

spot;660688 wrote: It's rather the reverse, associating illegality with the majority of US immigrants who had a perfectly blameless and legal transition into the country. There's people out there who just love to smear by association.
I see both, depending on who's talking, but from politicians, it's mainly the former. I think that's only a symptom, though, not the issue. I'm convinced there's a deeper reason; to keep the public confused & off-balance, if nothing else. But I think there's something else.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:07 am

Nomad;660796 wrote: Why should I sympathize with these criminals?

Because youre not a cold blooded hard edged person ?
When it comes to responsibility and accountability, I am hard. Those dead and injured are dead and injured as a direct consequence to decisions they made and actions they took. They could have taken a safer, legal, and more desirable path, but they decided otherwise.

I don't see anyone deserving sympathy in this story other than any children that may have been left behind.

IMO, to have sympathy for criminal aliens cheapens the heroic effort of those that go through the ordeals of coming here legally.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:33 am

Accountable;661306 wrote: When it comes to responsibility and accountability, I am hard. Those dead and injured are dead and injured as a direct consequence to decisions they made and actions they took. They could have taken a safer, legal, and more desirable path, but they decided otherwise.

I don't see anyone deserving sympathy in this story other than any children that may have been left behind.

IMO, to have sympathy for criminal aliens cheapens the heroic effort of those that go through the ordeals of coming here legally.

No thats not it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:48 am

Nomad;661368 wrote: No thats not it.
:yh_eyebro Yes?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:54 am

:wah:

Sorry Im "wandering"

My mind is cruising for some action.

This might not be the right place.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:32 pm

Write a proverb in the proverb thread.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:28 pm

I've been counting my change for a while with this thread. Trying to figure which side I'm on. I still don't know for certain.

I've run some scenarios and found more hurdles than answers.

At first I thought of the human factor. I've only been to Algodones Mexico which is just a hop over the Yuma Arizona border. What I saw was pretty scuzzy but that is my only reference. I keep thinking we should sympathize because they could be us...and because every mother has an obligation to better things for her child, every father does too, indeed every person has a *right* to a decent life. Certainly they *should* do it legally but that takes time, knowledge and money, does it not? Poor people frequently are short on education and always money and how long does it take exactly to apply and receive permission to come to the US? And don't we have a limit on how many foreigners we permit to move here? Isn't there that lottery system thing still?

If I were a Mexican and poor and possibly low in education, I might do what they're doing, wrong or not. Would this make me a bad person? Would I deserve to die for it if my coyote's car flipped over? What about the contributions I made to my community, my family, society, in my small way? If I die, they cease.

That said....people try to better their lives in a lot of ways, some good, some bad. A guy with a Glock coming through my window to rip off my stuff to sell for his crack habit, who shoots me, may be trying to better his sorry life but should we sympathize with him? I wouldn't.

The woman selling herself on the corner because she has a sick kid, if she gets popped off, should we feel sorry for her? Unless she was in Nevada, her doings were illegal and possibly continued to create some negative things for others. I'd feel sorry for her.

So we have the illegal Mexicans. If they sneak over here they will start usurping benefits that as criminals (not as humans) they don't deserve to have. They probably aren't killing anyone, they're just taking grunt work that everyone claims Americans won' take, using our hospitals for free delivery and medical care, not paying their share of taxes that pay for this free stuff, and unless we're talking about the goodness of their personalities, aren't contributing much if anything to our communities.

But do they deserve to die in a car wreck? I don't think so. Yet it's a game of "youse buys your ticket, youse takes your chances."

I have this feeling I'm not being real clear with what I'm trying to say.

I guess one criminal is not necessarily like all criminals.

Which weighs in more....the criminal element or the human factor?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:30 pm

I have this notion somewhere in the back of my mind that in the end, when all is said and done, God will poke us in the ribs on the border issue. I think he might question whether we really "got it".

I mean the reality is none of us really own a damn thing.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:06 pm

So don't lock your doors. Leave your keys in the car ignition.

Me? I respect others' rules & property and expect the same in return.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:18 pm

Accountable;661576 wrote: So don't lock your doors. Leave your keys in the car ignition.

Me? I respect others' rules & property and expect the same in return.

All Im saying is considering we are this tiny blue planet floating in the heavens its possible theres a bigger more important picture we might be missing. Something less practical and more ethereal than borders.

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:29 pm

Nomad;661596 wrote: All Im saying is considering we are this tiny blue planet floating in the heavens its possible theres a bigger more important picture we might be missing. Something less practical and more ethereal than borders.

Conceder the entire universe is a computer, and we are just one algorithm within it. Which would mean, while there are BASIC rules to the hardwares function, how the program is written, and whom is doing the writing, remains to be seen in the outcome.

Remaining on topic, if we were to build a wall between our two bordering countries, ring the coast of Florida with coast guard vessels and deny any and all immigrants into our country without a detailed plan of action submitted in triplicate by them prior to consideration for application of a green card, we would have a rude awakening.

While I could care less about a bunch of criminals who sneak into my country getting killed, I myself am not willing to shovel pig dung on a pork farm for five bucks an hour, nor am I willing to pick lettuce, fruit or cut lawn turf for that same amount. We need workers and they fill that need. While we should make them legal congress doesn't seem to agree on HOW we can do that so and being the spoiled American I am I'm not willing to go without my fresh produce, meat and poltry.

:D

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:57 pm

This troubles me.

It's not that we need illegals or even legal Mexicans to shovel pig mess or pick melons out of the fields for a pittance an hour.

What it is is that we need to start paying a decent wage for those jobs regardless of who performs them. It's only right.

There's a reason Americans don't want those crappy jobs and rightfully so. We're not too proud to do the work. But it doesn't pay our bills.