http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm
More enraged muslims?...you bet!
I watched an interview with a Muslim women this morning who said that it was disgusting and showed disrespect and a breach of Muslims women's human rights to make them take the veil off. She said that this would quite rightly anger Muslims and just shows how little Mr Straw knew about Islam and understood his constituents. This makes me really annoyed as it is simply untrue that Straw required Muslim women to do so, he just suggested that it might be more conducive to relations if they did. He always had a female member of staff present and also said that many Muslim women actually seemed relieved that they could do so.
If we aren't allowed to discuss these things then it will only cause it tensions to continue. Racism breeds through fear and ignorance of different people, if a discussion cannot be held wth regards to the differences because it 'angers' the minority then they are in part completing the circle, fueling the racist.
What do you think??
Katy
Well, what do you know.....
Well, what do you know.....
Don't think very much of Jack straw but he does have a valid point. Wonder what happens in those shopping centres where hoodies are banned. I also happen to think that faith schools should be done away with. We have enough problems with catholic-protestant sectarianism that faith schools help perpetuate allowing separate muslom schools is just more of the same bad idea.
Well, what do you know.....
When in rome..
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Bored_Wombat
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:33 am
Well, what do you know.....
Katy1 wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5411954.stm
I watched an interview with a Muslim women this morning who said that it was disgusting and showed disrespect and a breach of Muslims women's human rights to make them take the veil off.
Demanding that the veil be removed is the wrong approach. If someone wants to be closer to god, and finds that personal modesty does that for them, then more power to them.
However I also note that no one was suggesting forcing the veil to be removed.
I further note that Turkey has forced the veil to be removed amongst public servants, and legal and educational professionals. To some protest, but not to the revolt of the entire Muslim community (Which comprises 99% of the population.)
The ideal of communication is a good thing, and it can reduce the efficiency of some of the systems that a western society has in place: :rolleyes:
But differing standards of modesty don't seem to me to be something to get all worked up about.
I think the freedom to dress as you choose, especially if it brings you closer to God, is a very important thing.:yh_pray
If Jack Straw has a was of discouraging the full, everyone-looks-identical veil, without disenfranchising Muslims or isolating them, then good on him.
It sounds difficult though.:-2
I watched an interview with a Muslim women this morning who said that it was disgusting and showed disrespect and a breach of Muslims women's human rights to make them take the veil off.
Demanding that the veil be removed is the wrong approach. If someone wants to be closer to god, and finds that personal modesty does that for them, then more power to them.
However I also note that no one was suggesting forcing the veil to be removed.
I further note that Turkey has forced the veil to be removed amongst public servants, and legal and educational professionals. To some protest, but not to the revolt of the entire Muslim community (Which comprises 99% of the population.)
The ideal of communication is a good thing, and it can reduce the efficiency of some of the systems that a western society has in place: :rolleyes:
But differing standards of modesty don't seem to me to be something to get all worked up about.
I think the freedom to dress as you choose, especially if it brings you closer to God, is a very important thing.:yh_pray
If Jack Straw has a was of discouraging the full, everyone-looks-identical veil, without disenfranchising Muslims or isolating them, then good on him.
It sounds difficult though.:-2
Well, what do you know.....
What do I think? (Are you sure you want to know? :wah: )
I think that Muslims are now into the "PROFESSIONALLY AGITATED, INFURIATED, RIGHTEOUSLY INDIGNANT" mode!
We've certainly seen other groups in a similar state, (blacks, women, Native Americans, etc) but they didn't use bombs on airplanes/children to express their indignation.
If I get through a week without seeing another photo of people in turbans and veils waving their fists around and screaming.....I'll be amazed.
Note to the "politically correct." This does not mean that Muslims in Iraq haven't the right to protest the presence of western military in their country. This doesn't mean that they're not the object of suspicion and concern in other parts of the world.
What it DOES mean is that, in my humble opinion....extremists are siezing every possible opportunity to expoloit their position and gain VICTIMHOOD.
I remember the case of a woman in Florida (a recent convert to Islam) who demanded the right to have her drivers' license photo taken in a full veil! COME ON! A judge finally exercised good, common sense and ruled against her. Nice to know that someone on the bench had the courage to step out of the "pc" mode and do the right thing.
I think that Muslims are now into the "PROFESSIONALLY AGITATED, INFURIATED, RIGHTEOUSLY INDIGNANT" mode!
We've certainly seen other groups in a similar state, (blacks, women, Native Americans, etc) but they didn't use bombs on airplanes/children to express their indignation.
If I get through a week without seeing another photo of people in turbans and veils waving their fists around and screaming.....I'll be amazed.
Note to the "politically correct." This does not mean that Muslims in Iraq haven't the right to protest the presence of western military in their country. This doesn't mean that they're not the object of suspicion and concern in other parts of the world.
What it DOES mean is that, in my humble opinion....extremists are siezing every possible opportunity to expoloit their position and gain VICTIMHOOD.
I remember the case of a woman in Florida (a recent convert to Islam) who demanded the right to have her drivers' license photo taken in a full veil! COME ON! A judge finally exercised good, common sense and ruled against her. Nice to know that someone on the bench had the courage to step out of the "pc" mode and do the right thing.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Well, what do you know.....
(Stepping back up onto the soap box...:wah: ) Remember that business about the German Opera company in Berlin which cancelled its revival of Mozart's "Idomeneo?" It has a scene showing the severed head of Mohammed as well as those of Jesus, Buddha and Poseidon, because they were afraid they might "offend" Muslims.
In 2005, the Tate Gallery in London withdrew a glass sculpture titled "God Is Great," because officials didn't want to offend Muslims with images of the Bible, Talmud and Koran!
People, why are we attempting to appease a fundamentalist group which intends to impose its will on free speech and creativity? Does "political correctness" include the willingness to be blackmailed?
Why are we "respecting" a group which holds US in contempt?
Where does it end?
In 2005, the Tate Gallery in London withdrew a glass sculpture titled "God Is Great," because officials didn't want to offend Muslims with images of the Bible, Talmud and Koran!
People, why are we attempting to appease a fundamentalist group which intends to impose its will on free speech and creativity? Does "political correctness" include the willingness to be blackmailed?
Why are we "respecting" a group which holds US in contempt?
Where does it end?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Bored_Wombat
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:33 am
Well, what do you know.....
I agree with what Diuretic said yesterday, and, I think that the Koran does allow for a person's relationship with God to be personal.
Certainly the Muslims at work get by all day without a prayer room, and I've never noticed one get up and go for a pray seven times a day.
And these are practising Muslims; they certainly partake in Ramadan, and enjoy it for the spiritual development that such a holy time allows.
And I notice that he is cautious about making generalisations about the Muslim community, but that he does so anyway.
I don't think that the anti-Muslim racism that has been brewing in the west, probably as a consequence of political propaganda to support the Iraq occupation, is something to be discounted.
And the Cronulla riots have shown how far Australians will take this, if left to their own analysis.
I think that it is worth being overly cautious about making people feel not discriminated against because, as Sri Lanka has shown us, formerly good race relations can over about one generation degrade to a point at which people that can leave the country for security reasons.
Not that the Muslim community in Australia is as large a proportion of the population as the Tamils in Sri Lanka, but lets take all the steps we can to avoid young people growing up in an Australia which has race riots.
Certainly the Muslims at work get by all day without a prayer room, and I've never noticed one get up and go for a pray seven times a day.
And these are practising Muslims; they certainly partake in Ramadan, and enjoy it for the spiritual development that such a holy time allows.
And I notice that he is cautious about making generalisations about the Muslim community, but that he does so anyway.
I don't think that the anti-Muslim racism that has been brewing in the west, probably as a consequence of political propaganda to support the Iraq occupation, is something to be discounted.
And the Cronulla riots have shown how far Australians will take this, if left to their own analysis.
I think that it is worth being overly cautious about making people feel not discriminated against because, as Sri Lanka has shown us, formerly good race relations can over about one generation degrade to a point at which people that can leave the country for security reasons.
Not that the Muslim community in Australia is as large a proportion of the population as the Tamils in Sri Lanka, but lets take all the steps we can to avoid young people growing up in an Australia which has race riots.
Well, what do you know.....
Since we know full well that the radical Muslims aren't into "compromising," who's left to do it? Moderates? I'm still waiting for the "moderate" Muslim community to begin condemning the horrific behavior of their fellows in Darfur and Somalia, for example.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Bored_Wombat
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:33 am
Well, what do you know.....
Diuretic wrote: I'm suggesting that there can be compromise Wombat, that all parties do a bit of giving ground. Unfortunately these days it seems that - in many walks of life - the idea of compromise is equated with weakness instead of reasonableness.
Absolutely.
But we need to, on top of that, be aware of the worst thing that can happen.
The creation of a new racial underclass.
We know from comparisons of the Korean community in Japan vs Australia that a little bit of racial respect is the difference between a group that are extremely good for a country; over represented in the high income bracket, over represented in top professional degrees, under represented in the prison system and generally over-achievers and the opposite, over represented in school dropouts, over represented in welfare payments, over represented in prisons, under represented in the higher earning jobs.
Once a negative stigma becomes attached to being Muslim, (or Lebanese), (and I noticed that in the USA at least unemployment amongst Muslims is up and average wage is down, both significantly since 2001), a kid goes to school, interacts with the other people there, and becomes an underachiever and a delinquent.
Now Australia is doing this to itself, apparently open eyed and wilful. It's not pretty. It's not good for Australia. It's not good for the world. It might even be very very bad within the lifetime of young people today - as happened in Sri-Lanka, over 60 000 dead, a great many more horribly wounded, a huge retardation of economic activity in northern areas, and a massive exodus of the educated.
Compromise is important, and we're not looking for an apartheid system, but let’s do all we can to start with respect for each other and then compromise.
... oops, have to go to the airport ...
Absolutely.
But we need to, on top of that, be aware of the worst thing that can happen.
The creation of a new racial underclass.
We know from comparisons of the Korean community in Japan vs Australia that a little bit of racial respect is the difference between a group that are extremely good for a country; over represented in the high income bracket, over represented in top professional degrees, under represented in the prison system and generally over-achievers and the opposite, over represented in school dropouts, over represented in welfare payments, over represented in prisons, under represented in the higher earning jobs.
Once a negative stigma becomes attached to being Muslim, (or Lebanese), (and I noticed that in the USA at least unemployment amongst Muslims is up and average wage is down, both significantly since 2001), a kid goes to school, interacts with the other people there, and becomes an underachiever and a delinquent.
Now Australia is doing this to itself, apparently open eyed and wilful. It's not pretty. It's not good for Australia. It's not good for the world. It might even be very very bad within the lifetime of young people today - as happened in Sri-Lanka, over 60 000 dead, a great many more horribly wounded, a huge retardation of economic activity in northern areas, and a massive exodus of the educated.
Compromise is important, and we're not looking for an apartheid system, but let’s do all we can to start with respect for each other and then compromise.
... oops, have to go to the airport ...
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Bored_Wombat
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:33 am
Well, what do you know.....
Thanks for your non-confrontational response Diuretic.
I've just been wrestling trolls in a more aggressive forum, and was too armoured up for the lovely environment here.
But even in Sydney, I've got on well with the Muslims I've met. Of course you can't go drinking with them, but my ex had a workmate who would come out to the pub anyway.
He was a very intelligent conversationist ... but I imagine as the nights progressed he found the material wanting a bit.:-2
I've just been wrestling trolls in a more aggressive forum, and was too armoured up for the lovely environment here.
But even in Sydney, I've got on well with the Muslims I've met. Of course you can't go drinking with them, but my ex had a workmate who would come out to the pub anyway.
He was a very intelligent conversationist ... but I imagine as the nights progressed he found the material wanting a bit.:-2