What's wrong with Polygamy?
What's wrong with Polygamy?
G'day Ginge!! I thought biffage was a bit raunchy too... grin.. and I'm an Aussie.. go figger!!!
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
[QUOTE=Accountable;514643]None taken. I don't understand, though. You seem to see some kind of harm in polygamy - harm to children.
I am looking at it from the post of view of my own society, which is catholic in culture, and monogamous in marriage, any other minority is too small to consider. This is the backdrop to any Irish couple's marriage. Now, there are lots of issues such as cohabiting couples, gay couples wanting to adopt children and marry, divorced couples wanting custody these would be the main issues here. Polygamy is just illegal and it will remain so, as it abortion. Ireland is a lot more conservative country than the U.S. in a lot of ways and it is of course very Catholic in its culture, which again is very different from the US or Britain (i.e. Divorce only became legal 9 years ago). So thats the cultural backdrop, its not something that would be socially acceptable here, and that impacts on the children more than anyone else I think. I am not saying that everything about Irish society is great, its not, but it is as it is, and we have no more reason to apologize for the way we are than any country and therefore we don't.
In terms of the basic human psychology of polygamy, its interesting, I am not religious so I wouldn't have a moral issue with it at all, but it tends to happen in patriarchal societies and involves socially powerful men having lots of wifes to have sex with. Or to display as a signal of their power. Certainly in places like Saudi Arabia there are social problems with polygamy as if you are poor, and male, your chances of getting a wife are diminished by the fact that the rich old guys nick em all, perhaps explaining some of these angry young men we see who go round blowing themselves up, perhaps if they had wifes blowing them up, they wouldn't feel the need to do it themselves, know what I mean? My attitude is that as someone raised in the Catholic tradition, I see neither the point or merit in polygamy, and its certainly not something I would be interested in. I suppose as the older social structures break down, people are looking for new ways to organize their love lives, which you know, is all good. Its my suspision though that we will probably find that the customs we have used in Europe for 5,000 years have a lot of merit to them.
[QUOTE] We're certainly in agreement there.
Question on context: You typed "I don't think that its realistic to expect that any society would impose certain moral ideas on people" were you referring to imposing polygamy, monogamy, or something else?
Sorry, that was my typo, I mean to say its NOT realistic (at least in our societies). I think the basic reason we disagree is that you are a libertarian, which I am admire, but I am not. Though I am not a reactionary right wing conservative, or a left wing luvvy either.
I am looking at it from the post of view of my own society, which is catholic in culture, and monogamous in marriage, any other minority is too small to consider. This is the backdrop to any Irish couple's marriage. Now, there are lots of issues such as cohabiting couples, gay couples wanting to adopt children and marry, divorced couples wanting custody these would be the main issues here. Polygamy is just illegal and it will remain so, as it abortion. Ireland is a lot more conservative country than the U.S. in a lot of ways and it is of course very Catholic in its culture, which again is very different from the US or Britain (i.e. Divorce only became legal 9 years ago). So thats the cultural backdrop, its not something that would be socially acceptable here, and that impacts on the children more than anyone else I think. I am not saying that everything about Irish society is great, its not, but it is as it is, and we have no more reason to apologize for the way we are than any country and therefore we don't.
In terms of the basic human psychology of polygamy, its interesting, I am not religious so I wouldn't have a moral issue with it at all, but it tends to happen in patriarchal societies and involves socially powerful men having lots of wifes to have sex with. Or to display as a signal of their power. Certainly in places like Saudi Arabia there are social problems with polygamy as if you are poor, and male, your chances of getting a wife are diminished by the fact that the rich old guys nick em all, perhaps explaining some of these angry young men we see who go round blowing themselves up, perhaps if they had wifes blowing them up, they wouldn't feel the need to do it themselves, know what I mean? My attitude is that as someone raised in the Catholic tradition, I see neither the point or merit in polygamy, and its certainly not something I would be interested in. I suppose as the older social structures break down, people are looking for new ways to organize their love lives, which you know, is all good. Its my suspision though that we will probably find that the customs we have used in Europe for 5,000 years have a lot of merit to them.
[QUOTE] We're certainly in agreement there.
Question on context: You typed "I don't think that its realistic to expect that any society would impose certain moral ideas on people" were you referring to imposing polygamy, monogamy, or something else?
Sorry, that was my typo, I mean to say its NOT realistic (at least in our societies). I think the basic reason we disagree is that you are a libertarian, which I am admire, but I am not. Though I am not a reactionary right wing conservative, or a left wing luvvy either.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Hamster;515069 wrote: Maybe your needs can be met by your patner and you still want to be polygamous. Society has a real issue dealing with this concept I think.
I also think children form loving relationships with anyone who comes into their life and offers them love. If more than one father figure or mother figure is present in my view then this would just enhance their upbringing and ability to adapt to the world.
Why should it be a recipe for a fight? This relies on the belief that our differences make us weaker. This is not always the case. Sometimes our opposing views can make us consider aspects we would not have thought of before-and in effect opening our closed minds.
I think that having an open relationship, or you know a liberal attitude to your sexual needs (I am pretty liberal let me tell you), is not the same thing as polygamy, which the legal institution of marriage to multiple partners (nearly always wives as well BTW, so its not been something that has been very empowering for women in the past). I think that its definetly true that human sexuality is a very broad church and the marriage bed does not always satisfy the needs that people may have, which is why in many European countries the taking of lovers or mistresses is seen as something that (while not celebrated is not dealt with in the purient way that English speaking countries seem to do).
Also there is an issue as well with control, in that men in the past have always tried to control women and their sexuality through marriage, while also women have wanted the legally binding contract that ensures they will get some security from having to live and bear the children of some bloke, who they suspect would really like to be out impregnating as many women as possible. Marriage was also seen as a good way of differentiating the labour involved in raring children. There were good reasons for all of this. Of course a lot of this is breaking down nowadays, and its more up to the individual which sort of loving relationship they want, and what type of family structure they are comfortable with, some still prefer the idea of a long-term legally binding relationship, others do not, any many do not know what they want (as ever). I am trying to give my own honest opinions about these things. I guess although I am a modern fella and all that, and liberal enough in my outlook, I also have quite and old fashioned conservative streak in me, but you know, its all good init, as long as we don't use our own opinions to bash each other around the head with. I mean in my case, I am 35, unmarried, and quite happy about it, as I like my freedom and women, I am certainly no prude either.
I also think children form loving relationships with anyone who comes into their life and offers them love. If more than one father figure or mother figure is present in my view then this would just enhance their upbringing and ability to adapt to the world.
Why should it be a recipe for a fight? This relies on the belief that our differences make us weaker. This is not always the case. Sometimes our opposing views can make us consider aspects we would not have thought of before-and in effect opening our closed minds.
I think that having an open relationship, or you know a liberal attitude to your sexual needs (I am pretty liberal let me tell you), is not the same thing as polygamy, which the legal institution of marriage to multiple partners (nearly always wives as well BTW, so its not been something that has been very empowering for women in the past). I think that its definetly true that human sexuality is a very broad church and the marriage bed does not always satisfy the needs that people may have, which is why in many European countries the taking of lovers or mistresses is seen as something that (while not celebrated is not dealt with in the purient way that English speaking countries seem to do).
Also there is an issue as well with control, in that men in the past have always tried to control women and their sexuality through marriage, while also women have wanted the legally binding contract that ensures they will get some security from having to live and bear the children of some bloke, who they suspect would really like to be out impregnating as many women as possible. Marriage was also seen as a good way of differentiating the labour involved in raring children. There were good reasons for all of this. Of course a lot of this is breaking down nowadays, and its more up to the individual which sort of loving relationship they want, and what type of family structure they are comfortable with, some still prefer the idea of a long-term legally binding relationship, others do not, any many do not know what they want (as ever). I am trying to give my own honest opinions about these things. I guess although I am a modern fella and all that, and liberal enough in my outlook, I also have quite and old fashioned conservative streak in me, but you know, its all good init, as long as we don't use our own opinions to bash each other around the head with. I mean in my case, I am 35, unmarried, and quite happy about it, as I like my freedom and women, I am certainly no prude either.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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Accountable
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Galbally;515049 wrote:
I am looking at it from the post of view of my own society, which is catholic in culture, and monogamous in marriage, any other minority is too small to consider. This is the backdrop to any Irish couple's marriage. Now, there are lots of issues such as cohabiting couples, gay couples wanting to adopt children and marry, divorced couples wanting custody these would be the main issues here. Polygamy is just illegal and it will remain so, as it abortion. Ireland is a lot more conservative country than the U.S. in a lot of ways and it is of course very Catholic in its culture, which again is very different from the US or Britain (i.e. Divorce only became legal 9 years ago). So thats the cultural backdrop, its not something that would be socially acceptable here, and that impacts on the children more than anyone else I think. I am not saying that everything about Irish society is great, its not, but it is as it is, and we have no more reason to apologize for the way we are than any country and therefore we don't. I understand and agree to the point about the children needing a good social framework to learn what behavior is acceptable and what isn't. A monogamous nuclear family is a time-honored foundation proven to be a very effective foundation for that framework.
In the US, that construct is pretty much destroyed, at least in the more metropolitan areas. Polygamy might be harmful to Irish society because it is socially unacceptable. In a culture without that strong foundation, would it still be harmful? And even if it is, would it be so harmful as to justify making the practice illegal?
The one big social issue I see is in loyalty. Would a child raised in a plygamous family learn the value of loyalty to the same degree as in a nuclear family, all other things equal?
I am looking at it from the post of view of my own society, which is catholic in culture, and monogamous in marriage, any other minority is too small to consider. This is the backdrop to any Irish couple's marriage. Now, there are lots of issues such as cohabiting couples, gay couples wanting to adopt children and marry, divorced couples wanting custody these would be the main issues here. Polygamy is just illegal and it will remain so, as it abortion. Ireland is a lot more conservative country than the U.S. in a lot of ways and it is of course very Catholic in its culture, which again is very different from the US or Britain (i.e. Divorce only became legal 9 years ago). So thats the cultural backdrop, its not something that would be socially acceptable here, and that impacts on the children more than anyone else I think. I am not saying that everything about Irish society is great, its not, but it is as it is, and we have no more reason to apologize for the way we are than any country and therefore we don't. I understand and agree to the point about the children needing a good social framework to learn what behavior is acceptable and what isn't. A monogamous nuclear family is a time-honored foundation proven to be a very effective foundation for that framework.
In the US, that construct is pretty much destroyed, at least in the more metropolitan areas. Polygamy might be harmful to Irish society because it is socially unacceptable. In a culture without that strong foundation, would it still be harmful? And even if it is, would it be so harmful as to justify making the practice illegal?
The one big social issue I see is in loyalty. Would a child raised in a plygamous family learn the value of loyalty to the same degree as in a nuclear family, all other things equal?
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Ginger Vitus;514735 wrote: Does Accountable even have a personality? :-2
:wah: I'm sorry I missed this part while it was happening. Sorry about the multiple posts (never been accused of being anal before :yh_think) I was indulging myself a bit. Saffron's bigotry and extreme closed-mindedness kind of gets to me, and I just couldn't resist running my fingernails down the chalkboard of her mind. :sneaky:
:wah: I'm sorry I missed this part while it was happening. Sorry about the multiple posts (never been accused of being anal before :yh_think) I was indulging myself a bit. Saffron's bigotry and extreme closed-mindedness kind of gets to me, and I just couldn't resist running my fingernails down the chalkboard of her mind. :sneaky:
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RedGlitter
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Accountable;515162 wrote: :wah: I'm sorry I missed this part while it was happening. Sorry about the multiple posts (never been accused of being anal before :yh_think) I was indulging myself a bit. Saffron's bigotry and extreme closed-mindedness kind of gets to me, and I just couldn't resist running my fingernails down the chalkboard of her mind. :sneaky:
Actually, your constant references to Saffron's "bigotry" have been exceedingly pissing me off. Saffron is no more a bigot than you are PC, Accountable. She's someone with some very valid points and opinions different from your own. I know you have a problem with her, but neither that nor what I mentioned before, makes her a bigot. Get some new material... please.
Actually, your constant references to Saffron's "bigotry" have been exceedingly pissing me off. Saffron is no more a bigot than you are PC, Accountable. She's someone with some very valid points and opinions different from your own. I know you have a problem with her, but neither that nor what I mentioned before, makes her a bigot. Get some new material... please.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
What's wrong with Polygamy?
RedGlitter;515176 wrote: Actually, your constant references to Saffron's "bigotry" have been exceedingly pissing me off. Saffron is no more a bigot than you are PC, Accountable. She's someone with some very valid points and opinions different from your own. I know you have a problem with her, but neither that nor what I mentioned before, makes her a bigot. Get some new material... please.Sorry to pull the thread off point. Here's the link. http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=12658
I won't discuss it further unless it's in another thread. Now let's get back to the subject at hand.
I won't discuss it further unless it's in another thread. Now let's get back to the subject at hand.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Hamster;515170 wrote: Consider instead a world where several men AND women coud form consenting relationships that were mutually beneficial and enhanced our life experience. I'm not saying that everyone would be sexually active with all the partners (hetero and homo) but the possibility was there to explore.
Consider also the fact that all the people would have close relationship (as you would with anyone you live with) so there would be no demeaning or pecking order to the partners.
Imagine for a moment a situation where they could all have a share and participate WHEN and IF they wanted to. Thanks, Hammy. That's the ideal I wanted to discuss. How would legalizing it impact society?
Consider also the fact that all the people would have close relationship (as you would with anyone you live with) so there would be no demeaning or pecking order to the partners.
Imagine for a moment a situation where they could all have a share and participate WHEN and IF they wanted to. Thanks, Hammy. That's the ideal I wanted to discuss. How would legalizing it impact society?
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Accountable;515154 wrote: I understand and agree to the point about the children needing a good social framework to learn what behavior is acceptable and what isn't. A monogamous nuclear family is a time-honored foundation proven to be a very effective foundation for that framework.
In the US, that construct is pretty much destroyed, at least in the more metropolitan areas. Polygamy might be harmful to Irish society because it is socially unacceptable. In a culture without that strong foundation, would it still be harmful? And even if it is, would it be so harmful as to justify making the practice illegal?
The one big social issue I see is in loyalty. Would a child raised in a plygamous family learn the value of loyalty to the same degree as in a nuclear family, all other things equal?
Yes, its not the same country to country. I don't have a lot of advice about how American society is because I don't know it very well. But you know, human beings will always develop their own ways dependent on the circumstances that they find around them. In terms of what all the implications are for law, property, nheritance, marriage, and all of that, I don't really know, they are big themes in human society, and complex and I am not a lawyer. I guess we must each find our own path and try to do the best we can by each other. What I find depressing about a lot of modern social values is that they do empower the individual (which I of course being an individual really like), but then there is also the tendency for people to bypass the idea that you are not actually "free" to do whatever you like, and that your actions have consequences, and that life is not here just so you can have a good time, its the "me" culture init? Again its a balance, politcial, intellectual, economic, sexual and social liberty are all things I completely agree with, but not for free, cause nothing is for free, we are members of a societies, we are not lone indivduals who can do whatever takes our fancy. Thats my belief anyway. All that said, I don't want you to think I am one of these people who thinks that some very strict harsh code of morality should be inflicted on us all, we had enough of that in Ireland, and it didn't do us much good, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water either.
In the US, that construct is pretty much destroyed, at least in the more metropolitan areas. Polygamy might be harmful to Irish society because it is socially unacceptable. In a culture without that strong foundation, would it still be harmful? And even if it is, would it be so harmful as to justify making the practice illegal?
The one big social issue I see is in loyalty. Would a child raised in a plygamous family learn the value of loyalty to the same degree as in a nuclear family, all other things equal?
Yes, its not the same country to country. I don't have a lot of advice about how American society is because I don't know it very well. But you know, human beings will always develop their own ways dependent on the circumstances that they find around them. In terms of what all the implications are for law, property, nheritance, marriage, and all of that, I don't really know, they are big themes in human society, and complex and I am not a lawyer. I guess we must each find our own path and try to do the best we can by each other. What I find depressing about a lot of modern social values is that they do empower the individual (which I of course being an individual really like), but then there is also the tendency for people to bypass the idea that you are not actually "free" to do whatever you like, and that your actions have consequences, and that life is not here just so you can have a good time, its the "me" culture init? Again its a balance, politcial, intellectual, economic, sexual and social liberty are all things I completely agree with, but not for free, cause nothing is for free, we are members of a societies, we are not lone indivduals who can do whatever takes our fancy. Thats my belief anyway. All that said, I don't want you to think I am one of these people who thinks that some very strict harsh code of morality should be inflicted on us all, we had enough of that in Ireland, and it didn't do us much good, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water either.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
[QUOTE=Hamster;515170]How about taking the marriage and church thing out of it? Neither of which I subscribe to btw...And also how about taking the past view of polygamy as "Men taking several partners" out of it?
Hammy, I am not religious in the slightest either, and I also am not a moralist. But you can't ignore the fact that many people are religious, our society has as its basis christian ideas, and also you can't ignore what polygamy was about before, because thats part of the debate, otherwise we are dealing with an idealized situation which does not exist and to get something practical like legislation re-defining the ideas surrounding marraige changed, idealized ideas won't work.
[QUOTE]Consider instead a world where several men AND women coud form consenting relationships that were mutually beneficial and enhanced our life experience. I'm not saying that everyone would be sexually active with all the partners (hetero and homo) but the possibility was there to explore.
Consider also the fact that all the people would have close relationship (as you would with anyone you live with) so there would be no demeaning or pecking order to the partners.
Imagine for a moment a situation where they could all have a share and participate WHEN and IF they wanted to. [QUOTE]
I can picture that, and its a nice idea, its the idea of a world without sexual jealousy, envy, desire, social hierarchy, pecking orders, ego, etc etc. I don't see that human beings will ever be that liberated, because in essence we create the problems that we have, and fail to see that its our inner and less noble sides that create a lot of the problems that we have in our lives. Thats why we need rules sometimes, because we are not as basically "nice" as we like to think we are.
[QUOTE]Of course in reality this would never be allowed to happen here as it would be frowned upon. All I wanted to get across is that it is possible for a group of adults to live together in a away that show respect and love and doesn't involve submission of anyone's free will or preferences. People always tend to view polygamy as a "harem" or a set of wives obeying a master.
I totally respect your ideas hammy, and I would never, ever try to tell anyone how to live, or who to love, or in what way to express it. I suppose I am trying to be the devils advocate a little here, while also expressing my own views, which are of course my own and no one elses.
Hammy, I am not religious in the slightest either, and I also am not a moralist. But you can't ignore the fact that many people are religious, our society has as its basis christian ideas, and also you can't ignore what polygamy was about before, because thats part of the debate, otherwise we are dealing with an idealized situation which does not exist and to get something practical like legislation re-defining the ideas surrounding marraige changed, idealized ideas won't work.
[QUOTE]Consider instead a world where several men AND women coud form consenting relationships that were mutually beneficial and enhanced our life experience. I'm not saying that everyone would be sexually active with all the partners (hetero and homo) but the possibility was there to explore.
Consider also the fact that all the people would have close relationship (as you would with anyone you live with) so there would be no demeaning or pecking order to the partners.
Imagine for a moment a situation where they could all have a share and participate WHEN and IF they wanted to. [QUOTE]
I can picture that, and its a nice idea, its the idea of a world without sexual jealousy, envy, desire, social hierarchy, pecking orders, ego, etc etc. I don't see that human beings will ever be that liberated, because in essence we create the problems that we have, and fail to see that its our inner and less noble sides that create a lot of the problems that we have in our lives. Thats why we need rules sometimes, because we are not as basically "nice" as we like to think we are.
[QUOTE]Of course in reality this would never be allowed to happen here as it would be frowned upon. All I wanted to get across is that it is possible for a group of adults to live together in a away that show respect and love and doesn't involve submission of anyone's free will or preferences. People always tend to view polygamy as a "harem" or a set of wives obeying a master.
I totally respect your ideas hammy, and I would never, ever try to tell anyone how to live, or who to love, or in what way to express it. I suppose I am trying to be the devils advocate a little here, while also expressing my own views, which are of course my own and no one elses.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Hamster;515199 wrote: I don't really believe we are free in this society Gal..Sure I am free..unless I refuse to fill out my consensus, or unless I don't make my kids go to school or unless I don't pay my taxes or pay national insurance etc.
I think we live in the western world under some illusion of freedom-but that's another thread altogether.
My view of polygamy is not compatible with this society and its very judgemental ways.
There is no such thing as a truly "free" society, thats human truth hammy, at least we live in societies where difference from norm of life is tolerated somewhat if not really accepted. Its just the way things have always been.
I think we live in the western world under some illusion of freedom-but that's another thread altogether.
My view of polygamy is not compatible with this society and its very judgemental ways.
There is no such thing as a truly "free" society, thats human truth hammy, at least we live in societies where difference from norm of life is tolerated somewhat if not really accepted. Its just the way things have always been.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Just as well, to give you an insight into my own kinda life, the longest relationship I had was 5 years, and I left because of her jealousy, not that I was actually doing anything, but it was there and it poisoned it, so I left, it broke me heart but I did, cause I am not jealous by nature and I couldn't take it anymore at the time. Certainly trying to control someone unfairly is the most sure-fire way of killing any love between people. I also realize that its easy to theorize about marraige and all that, and its a completely different thing to actually live it. I am not someone who generally judges people based on their sexuality or love lives because I think thats hypocritical and wrong.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Hamster;515209 wrote: But is it tolerated Gal?? There has been homosexual people around for ages and yet half the planet still wont accept it. This of course is just an example of a difference...we could talk about any race, religion or colour discrimination here.
I am not speaking for the planet, which is general is a very violent, intolerant, brutal and impoverished place, which we do not have the right to speak for. I am talking about our own societies, which are the only places that we can get to do anything about. And yes, our societies have a lot of intolerance in them, but over the last 100 years there has been some freeing up of our societies attitudes to sex, women and men, homosexuality, xenophoba, racism etc, far more than anywhere else in the world if you ask me, which is why I like western society.
I am not speaking for the planet, which is general is a very violent, intolerant, brutal and impoverished place, which we do not have the right to speak for. I am talking about our own societies, which are the only places that we can get to do anything about. And yes, our societies have a lot of intolerance in them, but over the last 100 years there has been some freeing up of our societies attitudes to sex, women and men, homosexuality, xenophoba, racism etc, far more than anywhere else in the world if you ask me, which is why I like western society.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Hamster;515217 wrote: I have also experienced jealousy Gal from previous relationships. It is not nice and in my opinion it is a symptom of a failing relationship as one partner cannot love someone unconditionally as would be needed for my idealised situation below. Asking someone to be monogamous could be considered also a method of control if that person was unhappy doing that.
I believe this situation would only work if two, three, four etc people of exact same beliefs could share in this. Imagine if your ex was so secure of her self image that she did not need your constant atention and reassurance to validate her. That would indeed be a different world.
It was a very hard situation, I did love her, but I couldn't deal with her jealousy anymore and I felt guilty as well as we all do, and she loved me as well, but not in a healthy way, it was bad. It wasn't really about sex, because that never was an issue, it was control (and of course that does manifest itself in sexual jealousy), and insecurity. I am not someone who loses themselves completely in a realtionship, I need an outide life, and I don't define myself by who I am sleeping with, so its hard for me to understand it. Though of course I can be possesive if I see some guy letching over my girl, thats instinct init, qnd like I said, I do have quite an old fashioned, stern kinda side to me as well as the inner liberal inside.
I think with your idea about polygamy, obviously its only something that could work with people who were entirely comfortable with it, and who even kinda seek that lifestyle out, as quite a few people do, of course there are also many who don't, and there are some whose attitudes to love and sex are entirely unhealthy and purient, they are usually the ones who try to impose their own visions on everyone else, because of their own insecurity and intolerance.
I believe this situation would only work if two, three, four etc people of exact same beliefs could share in this. Imagine if your ex was so secure of her self image that she did not need your constant atention and reassurance to validate her. That would indeed be a different world.
It was a very hard situation, I did love her, but I couldn't deal with her jealousy anymore and I felt guilty as well as we all do, and she loved me as well, but not in a healthy way, it was bad. It wasn't really about sex, because that never was an issue, it was control (and of course that does manifest itself in sexual jealousy), and insecurity. I am not someone who loses themselves completely in a realtionship, I need an outide life, and I don't define myself by who I am sleeping with, so its hard for me to understand it. Though of course I can be possesive if I see some guy letching over my girl, thats instinct init, qnd like I said, I do have quite an old fashioned, stern kinda side to me as well as the inner liberal inside.
I think with your idea about polygamy, obviously its only something that could work with people who were entirely comfortable with it, and who even kinda seek that lifestyle out, as quite a few people do, of course there are also many who don't, and there are some whose attitudes to love and sex are entirely unhealthy and purient, they are usually the ones who try to impose their own visions on everyone else, because of their own insecurity and intolerance.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Hamster;515203 wrote: I really don't think Acc that it would fit into this society at all, legal or otherwise.
People may nod their heads and agree with me in principal about these issues but I'm sure if someone else was to move in here with us that we would then be treated as social outcasts etc.
I don't believe it is compatible at all and I think it is just that..an ideal. I would love for us all to have the freedom to make a choice to live however we want but I doubt that will ever be the case whilst the majority still believe in being married and having only one partner. I wish no offense here to people who are married...I just want to state that this is not my philosophy.
What do you think on this subject? Would it be compatible? I don't think so to be honest. I could see an image of a group of people living this way shoved into an area and left to "get on with it" as in "that sort of stuff is ok for you but don't bring it round here where we can see it".
But that's what many say about homosexual marriage, and many others are yelling in support. WTF?? I even hear again and again that if we allow homosexual marriage, the next thing will be polygamy - as if that's somehow worse! That's what started me thinking & starting this thread.
People rely on laws too much to dictate what should be (used to be) common courtesy and social norms. Government should not be in the morality business. That's parents' and churches' purview. The inalienable right to pursue happiness, through multiple marriage for some, should be allowed by law.
People may nod their heads and agree with me in principal about these issues but I'm sure if someone else was to move in here with us that we would then be treated as social outcasts etc.
I don't believe it is compatible at all and I think it is just that..an ideal. I would love for us all to have the freedom to make a choice to live however we want but I doubt that will ever be the case whilst the majority still believe in being married and having only one partner. I wish no offense here to people who are married...I just want to state that this is not my philosophy.
What do you think on this subject? Would it be compatible? I don't think so to be honest. I could see an image of a group of people living this way shoved into an area and left to "get on with it" as in "that sort of stuff is ok for you but don't bring it round here where we can see it".
But that's what many say about homosexual marriage, and many others are yelling in support. WTF?? I even hear again and again that if we allow homosexual marriage, the next thing will be polygamy - as if that's somehow worse! That's what started me thinking & starting this thread.
People rely on laws too much to dictate what should be (used to be) common courtesy and social norms. Government should not be in the morality business. That's parents' and churches' purview. The inalienable right to pursue happiness, through multiple marriage for some, should be allowed by law.
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Diuretic;515584 wrote: Good, we've sent John off to the showers so I'll get back on track.
Acc the nuclear family is a very recent invention. Humans are naturally tribal, naturally polyamorous, children have been brought up successfully for thousands of years in group families where pairings were temporary.
The form of marriage we're used to, one man, one woman, producing children, has one of its purposes as child development. Since western industrialised societies are not tribal any longer then marriage in that form makes sense. But that doesn't invalidate other forms of marriage. Marriage is also about property. No longer is a wife the property of her husband (allthough some individuals haven't got the word yet) but marriage is definitely partly about amassing wealth and transferring it across the generations so it accumulates. Our form of marriage protects and extends the concept of private property and private wealth.
In traditional Australian Aboriginal families - and in some contemporary ones I'm told - the mother/father of the children is there to give love and care. When it's time for the child to be disciplined then the mother's or father's brother or sister (the terms "brother" and "sister" and other familial relations are very complex in Aboriginal society and much more extensive of definition than in our narrow concepts) will take that role. That leaves the parents free to give love and care.
That calls for tremendous trust. It's a nice idea.
Acc the nuclear family is a very recent invention. Humans are naturally tribal, naturally polyamorous, children have been brought up successfully for thousands of years in group families where pairings were temporary.
The form of marriage we're used to, one man, one woman, producing children, has one of its purposes as child development. Since western industrialised societies are not tribal any longer then marriage in that form makes sense. But that doesn't invalidate other forms of marriage. Marriage is also about property. No longer is a wife the property of her husband (allthough some individuals haven't got the word yet) but marriage is definitely partly about amassing wealth and transferring it across the generations so it accumulates. Our form of marriage protects and extends the concept of private property and private wealth.
In traditional Australian Aboriginal families - and in some contemporary ones I'm told - the mother/father of the children is there to give love and care. When it's time for the child to be disciplined then the mother's or father's brother or sister (the terms "brother" and "sister" and other familial relations are very complex in Aboriginal society and much more extensive of definition than in our narrow concepts) will take that role. That leaves the parents free to give love and care.
That calls for tremendous trust. It's a nice idea.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
I think this is all very interesting really. In my country until very recently, we had (and still do) have the kinda Catholic extended family model, where there are lots of children, and lots of generational mixing in that the granny and grandad, as well as the kids are all still quite linked, thats how it was when I was growing up, and still in many ways Irish people aspire to this kind of idealized large family ideal, though of course recently financial pressures and also a more equitable role for Irish women in society and the workforce are changing things somewhat, people are now getting married younger and having less children as its too expensive basically, and women need to work full time to pay the mortgage with the husband, also the tradititional role of the grandparents has come back, as child care is not free, in fact its extrememly expensive, so granny and grandad have in a lot of cases started looking after the kids while mom and dad are off to the city.
I think this kinda underlines the notion that the basic idea behind marraige in our socities is economic in that people see it as the best way to have economic security while also raising children, and they are generally encouraged to do so, I guess going on the ideas someone else said here, the idea of family (and not just the nuclear family, but family as in your wider "family") is a human constant and one of the organizing principals of the species, and marraige developed out of that. Whether the social structures that we have now will survive the pressures of a rapidly changing society, economy, culture etc I am not sure, though I think something as basic as marraige is not something that would ever really go away, it seems like one of those human ideas that people tend to repeat over and over.
I think this kinda underlines the notion that the basic idea behind marraige in our socities is economic in that people see it as the best way to have economic security while also raising children, and they are generally encouraged to do so, I guess going on the ideas someone else said here, the idea of family (and not just the nuclear family, but family as in your wider "family") is a human constant and one of the organizing principals of the species, and marraige developed out of that. Whether the social structures that we have now will survive the pressures of a rapidly changing society, economy, culture etc I am not sure, though I think something as basic as marraige is not something that would ever really go away, it seems like one of those human ideas that people tend to repeat over and over.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Hamster;515613 wrote: Acc are you reffering to others disciplining your children when you say it requires trust?
Yes, especially when parents turn all the disciplinary responsibility to others.
Yes, especially when parents turn all the disciplinary responsibility to others.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Accountable;515858 wrote: Yes, especially when parents turn all the disciplinary responsibility to others.
Parents who would do that are very, very unwise in my opinion, though not being a parent (yet), its not something I have great experience of. I'd like to think that most people wouldn't naturally entertain such ideas, but its obvious that some do, which is a pity, but its also the nature of things.
Parents who would do that are very, very unwise in my opinion, though not being a parent (yet), its not something I have great experience of. I'd like to think that most people wouldn't naturally entertain such ideas, but its obvious that some do, which is a pity, but its also the nature of things.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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Accountable
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Galbally;515866 wrote: Parents who would do that are very, very unwise in my opinion, though not being a parent (yet), its not something I have great experience of. I'd like to think that most people wouldn't naturally entertain such ideas, but its obvious that some do, which is a pity, but its also the nature of things.
Not if it is the social norm of the culture. If I understood Di's explanation, that culture might even consider it abusive for the parents to impose discipline.
Not if it is the social norm of the culture. If I understood Di's explanation, that culture might even consider it abusive for the parents to impose discipline.
What's wrong with Polygamy?
Yes, I am sorry I should have qualified that by saying that I was talking about my own culture, I don't have any experience of living completely in a different culture so I don't make any value judgements on them. I suppose the only true test of any social or cultural model is its longevity, and obviously aboriginal australian culture is very very old, so it must work for them because if it didn't they wouldn't have survived and prospered as they did, sadly its not so easy for them now, as they have to deal with European culture as well, which is not very sympathetic to their way of life. Like Diruetic said, I am not romantic about other cultures or ways, but they all have validity if they have survived the test of time by the simple fact they have survived, but being a European, I suppose my own interest is in the way that our culure has developed and where it is heading, which as ever is not that easy to judge.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Diuretic;515877 wrote: By the way I don't get misty-eyed over traditional cultures. There are aspects of it that I find repulsive, but again, those practices too are out of necessity.
Will you stop whinging about putting the toilet seat down, please?
Will you stop whinging about putting the toilet seat down, please?
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What's wrong with Polygamy?
Pinky;515913 wrote: Show a little respect Acc, even if those views aren;t yours.
Di & I regularly joke this way with each other.
Di, did you realize I was joking?
Di & I regularly joke this way with each other.
Di, did you realize I was joking?