A thread of whining and self pity

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Clodhopper
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by Clodhopper »

Apologies first to Ahso for hijacking his thread and to 4part for hijacking his undoubtedly very difficult admission of Bipolar. My post was a totally inappropriate reaction to that post, induced by a strong and honest emotional sympathetic reaction to his admission but nonetheless totally inappropriate.



Sorry.



I knew a bipolar person years ago so I know where 4 part goes, to some extent. I couldn't stop her suicide attempt but no-one could so I don't feel very bad about it. She was a supply teacher last I heard (she was a friend of my wife and we've drifted apart and is still one of the simply most beautifully pure good people I've ever known and undeserving of the ovarian cysts and childhood sexual abuse and death in a black ice accident of the friend who showed her that men could be good and sex also just after they got engaged...

I've not got much time for god any more. That was 30 years ago and a good start.

I have no idea whether any of that triggered her bi-polar disorder or whether it was always just going to happen. I am subjectively convinced that her horrific experiences made it more certain she would suffer and probably worse. But if you have it you have it and it will manifest. I asked her after the crisis when she attempted suicide and should have died (aspirin and alcohol...one tough liver...) how she could when we knew how much it hurt friends and family and she explained that it hurt so much all the time she just had to hope we would understand. It was just too much. I was reminded of accounts I've heard of people with bad cancer or deep burns who screamed until they were too weak and then whimpered until days or weeks or months later they died.

Bipolar is like that but spread out and thinned, when it's bad. 4part is still alive. Strong man.

I was reminded when he posted. A few month ago I had the memory re-emerge of being diagnosed with BPD (and yeah I know how dodgy that sounds. All I can say is if I was going to lie even I could do better) so when he made the admission I reacted strongly because I was in the area already. But I would NEVER have admitted it if he hadn't, at that precise time.

So this thread is your fault, 4part. ;)

So what the **** do I think is going on with Borderline Personality Disorder?



Heh. It's so degrading a name they really did try to rename it:



Emotionally Unstable Personality Syndrome.



Well, a laugh, at least. :)



What is BPD for me? Almost no ego, very little willpower (made worse because I have very little "I" to do things for). Strong disassociation. An unlucky social situation when a child at home and at school to the extent that at 15 I had serious evidence that my mother valued the dog above me: She paid £1 pill for the dog's skin condition and moaned about it which is how I knew. That was about 3 months after she complained about the idea of paying 50p a pill for my skin problems (which had my shirts covered in blood and pus) and never did get the pills the doctor said would cure me (Minacin) they wouldn't have, but they might have alerted him to the real problem which is an allergy to the enzymes in biological washing powder...



...as a teenager I had appalling spots on my back and chest but not my face: where I had sweat glands and clothing. My mother was the sort of person who believed that if you had spots you were a weak and soft person who got spots because you were weak and soft. The idea that it could have been because I had a sensitivity to the enzymes in biological washing powder didn't occur.

That wasn't the only thing, but it was the clincher.



To the Mums out there: this wasn't something little that was missed. This was several years of huge bloody spots and pus covered clothes and what did I get? Insults from her about being a filthy scug. To this day I cannot bring myself to tell you my nickname at school from this time.



Still here. The buggers haven't got me yet.



Oh, and I never hurt her when I hit her: I was a sabreur and 17 and my reaction speed when adrenalined up was good. When she challenged me to make good on my threat I tapped her on the cheek with three fingers before she moved. She was a sports coach.

She didn't cause it, nor did Dad, but they weren't there when I needed them, or worse.



The net effect is I find it incredibly hard to do things for the I that isn't very strong but I react incredibly powerfully and genuinely to ideas, and I analyse without as much self as usual getting in the way and my analysis is intense and powerful. BPD is about personality, not intellect and actually I gain some things from having my analytic powers uncluttered by self. Comparatively speaking.

...doesn't bloody explain why I'm so sensitive to vibration though. No idea if I am right about Cecilia having BPD or not.

All the world's a stage,

And all the men and women merely players;

They have their exits and their entrances,

And one man in his time plays many parts,

His acts being seven ages. At first, the infant,

Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

Then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel

And shining morning face, creeping like snail

Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,

Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad

Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,

Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,

Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,

Seeking the bubble reputation

Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,

In fair round belly with good capon lined,

With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,

Full of wise saws and modern instances;

And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts

Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,

With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;

His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide

For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,

Turning again toward childish treble, pipes

And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,

That ends this strange eventful history,

Is second childishness and mere oblivion,

Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
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gmc
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by gmc »

My wife became manic depressive after we got married. Turns out one of the possible side effects from one of the types contraceptive pill is it triggers depression in some people. I suspect it causes many a marriage breakdown.

Childhood experiences seem to have a lot to do with such things as well I don't think anyone has quite worked how life experience and brain chemistry interact, cause and effect, effect and cause. In my limited experience people who end up taking drugs to control mental illness often have life issues as well - has one triggered the other?
Clodhopper
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by Clodhopper »

Contraceptive pills appear overall to have been something of a mixed blessing. Yes, freedom for so many but the list of possible side effects and bad reactions that sometimes do happen is disturbingly long. Your missus (and you) have my sympathy.

I think life experiences can trigger mental health issues - that's not very controversial - and childhood experiences are life experiences that happen when you are still growing and the experiences can have a much bigger effect and different effects because you are more vulnerable in that state.

I think we need precise definitions here. What exactly do you mean by life issues as contrasted with mental health issues? My initial reaction is that mental health issues are a major cause of life issues and life issues can cause mental health issues. There's a potential spiral there, which we sometimes see. Is alcoholism a life issue or a mental health issue? Both, depending on context?

I'm pretty sure life experiences especially in childhood can trigger mental health issues or make them worse. Equally I suspect good parenting can mitigate the effects. That doesn't cover all issues - some you do either have or not, like Autism or Asperger's but even there I suspect good parenting helps and bad parenting makes it worse. Behaviour can run in families too: My mother was abused by her mother fairly badly - she left her family and never went back, never invited them over (except once when we were very small and it was not repeated) and promptly abused her own kids, or some of them at least. Without ever realising that was what she was doing as far as I can tell. I suspect in my case the contempt and disgust I got from her, combined with the horrible spots I got from biological washing powder, made my BPD much worse than it otherwise would have been.



If I had had a loving mother and interested father, or at least one of the two, I suspect my BPD would always have been there in the background but everyone including me might have gone through life never knowing it because it never really kicked in. As it is, without understanding what was happening, I have worked round many of the consequences (with the help of a bit of luck). I wonder if most if not all people have the potential for a mental illness but the required trigger events never happened at the necessary moments. Perhaps the spots alone would have been enough to trigger BPD - I certainly had my self confidence and self esteem blasted away between the ages of 13 and 17/18. The spots were cysts full of pus and an inch or so across and half an inch high. At times I had to wedge myself on my side in bed because it hurt too much to lie on my front or back. You can imagine that at a boarding school the kids were not kind and in the holidays my mother made her disgust plain. Sometimes I think it's amazing as much of me survived as did. But there has undoubtedly been damage and I have not been able to recover fully from it.



And these things tend to have consequences: Would I have married the woman I did, who was just using me for cash until she had her own career sorted out and had known she was a lesbian from a young age? Would someone with more confidence and more self esteem have put up with it? At the same time, while I believed I had a genuine marriage (if somewhat difficult) I was able to be a teacher. My collapse as a teacher exactly matched the collapse of my marriage: I was able to be a teacher for her; I couldn't do it for me.



I've tried counselling and found it of mixed utility. I had one good counsellor who was able to convince me it was ok to feel the way I did which has been important but other than that? Not any use. Might be if I had the cash to go every week but I'm unconvinced. The most important thing is I have friends. Not many but real, real enough that even when I couldn't speak to one of them after the Brexit vote for a year because I was so upset about it he's still around and we are repairing the relationship.

edit: Oh, and the threat I referred to in my first post was that if my mother hit me again I would hit her back. Only time I've hit a woman.
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Bruv
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by Bruv »

Both of you are brave to bare yourself here, luckily amongst friends.

I have no experience of either condition, hopefully speaking about it is helpful.



Thanks for sharing.
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Clodhopper
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by Clodhopper »

Brave? Thank you but I dunno.



4part started the bravery. If he's in a bad place he won't be able to even see it but he started it.
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gmc
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1520613 wrote: Contraceptive pills appear overall to have been something of a mixed blessing. Yes, freedom for so many but the list of possible side effects and bad reactions that sometimes do happen is disturbingly long. Your missus (and you) have my sympathy.

I think life experiences can trigger mental health issues - that's not very controversial - and childhood experiences are life experiences that happen when you are still growing and the experiences can have a much bigger effect and different effects because you are more vulnerable in that state.

I think we need precise definitions here. What exactly do you mean by life issues as contrasted with mental health issues? My initial reaction is that mental health issues are a major cause of life issues and life issues can cause mental health issues. There's a potential spiral there, which we sometimes see. Is alcoholism a life issue or a mental health issue? Both, depending on context?

I'm pretty sure life experiences especially in childhood can trigger mental health issues or make them worse. Equally I suspect good parenting can mitigate the effects. That doesn't cover all issues - some you do either have or not, like Autism or Asperger's but even there I suspect good parenting helps and bad parenting makes it worse. Behaviour can run in families too: My mother was abused by her mother fairly badly - she left her family and never went back, never invited them over (except once when we were very small and it was not repeated) and promptly abused her own kids, or some of them at least. Without ever realising that was what she was doing as far as I can tell. I suspect in my case the contempt and disgust I got from her, combined with the horrible spots I got from biological washing powder, made my BPD much worse than it otherwise would have been.



If I had had a loving mother and interested father, or at least one of the two, I suspect my BPD would always have been there in the background but everyone including me might have gone through life never knowing it because it never really kicked in. As it is, without understanding what was happening, I have worked round many of the consequences (with the help of a bit of luck). I wonder if most if not all people have the potential for a mental illness but the required trigger events never happened at the necessary moments. Perhaps the spots alone would have been enough to trigger BPD - I certainly had my self confidence and self esteem blasted away between the ages of 13 and 17/18. The spots were cysts full of pus and an inch or so across and half an inch high. At times I had to wedge myself on my side in bed because it hurt too much to lie on my front or back. You can imagine that at a boarding school the kids were not kind and in the holidays my mother made her disgust plain. Sometimes I think it's amazing as much of me survived as did. But there has undoubtedly been damage and I have not been able to recover fully from it.



And these things tend to have consequences: Would I have married the woman I did, who was just using me for cash until she had her own career sorted out and had known she was a lesbian from a young age? Would someone with more confidence and more self esteem have put up with it? At the same time, while I believed I had a genuine marriage (if somewhat difficult) I was able to be a teacher. My collapse as a teacher exactly matched the collapse of my marriage: I was able to be a teacher for her; I couldn't do it for me.



I've tried counselling and found it of mixed utility. I had one good counsellor who was able to convince me it was ok to feel the way I did which has been important but other than that? Not any use. Might be if I had the cash to go every week but I'm unconvinced. The most important thing is I have friends. Not many but real, real enough that even when I couldn't speak to one of them after the Brexit vote for a year because I was so upset about it he's still around and we are repairing the relationship.

edit: Oh, and the threat I referred to in my first post was that if my mother hit me again I would hit her back. Only time I've hit a woman.


For some reason I can't take out bits to paste and surround them with quotes and the bold font function seems not to work either. Don't know if the issue is at my end or the forum's.

I was thinking primarily of life experiences in childhood that can lead to or exacerbate mental health issues. I am not in any way qualified it's just an opinion I have come to over the years. At school I had a friend (13,14) try to commit suicide but an abusive parent who beat his mother and - as it turns out him - was the trigger - the classic call for help. He went on to do a PhD in zoology and ended up a university professor but it would be fair to say he had a tough time at school as the school nutter and was for a time on medication that he later did without. This was the late sixties teenagers didn't have mental illnesses back then though the more astute realised being a nutter was a bit more complex than it seemed.

I have a niece diagnosed as being somewhere on the Aspergers spectrum who now seems to be on her way to sorting things out - for want of a better way of putting it. For her being that way I would firmly lay the blame on the parents - she was just starting school when their marriage ended in most acrimonious style. All the behaviours associated with Aspergers - significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviour and interests seem to me as a way of coping with something she could not control. She lived in another country so there was not a lot my wife (it was her sister's kid) could do to help at the time. It's also had an effect on the other children - all adults now but as the youngest, she was most vulnerable and most affected. I could cite more anecdotal evidence but that's all it would be.

Mental illness as a coping mechanism for life's trials how's that for a theory?
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Betty Boop
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by Betty Boop »

gmc;1520642 wrote: For some reason I can't take out bits to paste and surround them with quotes and the bold font function seems not to work either. Don't know if the issue is at my end or the forum's.

I was thinking primarily of life experiences in childhood that can lead to or exacerbate mental health issues. I am not in any way qualified it's just an opinion I have come to over the years. At school I had a friend (13,14) try to commit suicide but an abusive parent who beat his mother and - as it turns out him - was the trigger - the classic call for help. He went on to do a PhD in zoology and ended up a university professor but it would be fair to say he had a tough time at school as the school nutter and was for a time on medication that he later did without. This was the late sixties teenagers didn't have mental illnesses back then though the more astute realised being a nutter was a bit more complex than it seemed.

I have a niece diagnosed as being somewhere on the Aspergers spectrum who now seems to be on her way to sorting things out - for want of a better way of putting it. For her being that way I would firmly lay the blame on the parents - she was just starting school when their marriage ended in most acrimonious style. All the behaviours associated with Aspergers - significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behaviour and interests seem to me as a way of coping with something she could not control. She lived in another country so there was not a lot my wife (it was her sister's kid) could do to help at the time. It's also had an effect on the other children - all adults now but as the youngest, she was most vulnerable and most affected. I could cite more anecdotal evidence but that's all it would be.

Mental illness as a coping mechanism for life's trials how's that for a theory?


Wow.

I can't bold up your comment on laying the blame for Aspergers on the parents. I have two on the Autistic spectrum and come up daily against the old struggle that some aspect of their condition is the parents fault, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigera ... her_theory

I am not in denial that the marriage break up didn't affect the child, it would have heightened the reactions though and now as she matures she's learning to self control. It's a normal autistic spectrum progression, the poor buggers have to learn how to behave within society to become more normal and to be accepted by an incredibly judgemental world.
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by magentaflame »

Betty Boop;1520646 wrote: Wow.

I can't bold up your comment on laying the blame for Aspergers on the parents. I have two on the Autistic spectrum and come up daily against the old struggle that some aspect of their condition is the parents fault, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigera ... her_theory

I am not in denial that the marriage break up didn't affect the child, it would have heightened the reactions though and now as she matures she's learning to self control. It's a normal autistic spectrum progression, the poor buggers have to learn how to behave within society to become more normal and to be accepted by an incredibly judgemental world.


Think you'll enjoy this Betty...also on youtube I think. The Australian pig farm benefitting from employing people with autism - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Post by gmc »

Betty Boop;1520646 wrote: Wow.

I can't bold up your comment on laying the blame for Aspergers on the parents. I have two on the Autistic spectrum and come up daily against the old struggle that some aspect of their condition is the parents fault, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigera ... her_theory

I am not in denial that the marriage break up didn't affect the child, it would have heightened the reactions though and now as she matures she's learning to self control. It's a normal autistic spectrum progression, the poor buggers have to learn how to behave within society to become more normal and to be accepted by an incredibly judgemental world.


I have a nephew - the same parent - who is dyslexic as an adult he learned ways of coping and is now in the process of doing a university degree two other children show no such problems. Being constantly told he was stupid by the father as a child probably did not do much to help with the dyslexia though. I was talking anecdotally but I do think the childhood experiences are a significant factor. I have known and met others with cognitive problems that could be classed as autistic, I don't think you can or should just blame one factor. The mmr vaccine is definitely not one but the damage that myth has done is serious. Should children who have not been vaccinated be kept out of school away from other children?
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Post by Clodhopper »

There seems a consensus that bad life events in childhood can bring on mental health issues. That of course only brings on other questions;



How far is this predictable? Two children can be subjected to the same bad event and react very differently. Is it possible to even say that THIS type of personality exposed to THAT life event will always have his or her tendency to syndrome X increased?



As far as I can tell parenting gets implicated somewhere along the line in most mental health issues but even in cases like schizophrenia (or "the schizophrenias" as it now seems increasingly to be called) where parenting was actually blamed outright in the 1960's for a time, they backtracked and it's generally now seen as just a possible factor which isn't a surprise.



Then there are different kinds of issue. Autism has the brain set up differently. You aren't going to "cure" that with parenting no matter what. But a kid who had a tendency to depression might never suffer with decent parenting, or at least not as badly if later life events trigger it.



Bad parenting will tend to create problems though, if the tendency is already there: give a kid a hostile environment and you encourage escapism which might take many forms: drugs, art, suicide, schizophrenia, BPD, Bipolar, with the precis effect depending on the kid.
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Post by magentaflame »

"Bad parenting"....what actually is bad parenting?
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Post by magentaflame »

What the hell is going on with this forum? I can't paste anything or quote anything. My posts look incomplete and silly!!!
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Post by Clodhopper »

Well, speaking personally, making your kid feel like piece of **** is a good start for bad parenting. I don't mean when they've done something bad, I mean as a permanent state of things.

I don't altogether blame her as probably seems the case. She was better than her mother from all I can gather. How can I blame her for that? I mourned her when she died - cried for the first time in decades and was weepy for months. But our personalities were not compatible. She despised me, she couldn't help it. Being adopted didn't help here, I think.

She was a big hearty rugger bugger. Aged 70 she still had the longest drive of any woman in her golf club. Her back was always ramrod straight. There was no uncertainty in her life - everything was black or white. She thought Margaret Thatcher was,,,ok, until she went soft. She loved me, I know that, but not in a close personal way. I was below the dog in the pecking order. For a good Mum the kids are above the dog. Unless the Mum is a dog, of course.



Many have had worse than I've got and done better. Some have had that sort of bad relationship drive them on to greatness. I've had to admit that I simply struggle to cope with the consequences - I am not cut out for greatness. My achievement is to not have done worse.

On top of that of course there's the question of whether my memory is real. To have a memory pop back like that? Heck, I'm asking myself if it's real, what must you folks be doing? But I do have memories from earlier that popped back from apparently nowhere: I remember going to my parents bedroom lying between them and the huge size of their bodies. I remember in particular my Dad's back which towered above me and an oblong mole he had on his lower back. So I do have memories from very early that pop back - this is just one, probably.

It doesn't actually matter any more, to a large extent. I am where I am after 54 years. Owe nothing to anyone and use what limited power and capacity I have to help others. But not many people from my long past or any who still support Brexit.
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Post by Ahso! »

FWIW, Clod, I think you're a remarkable person. I look for your posts whenever I visit FG. Your posts reflect a kind, compassionate and highly intelligent person.

Thank you for sharing your personal story. When it comes to family members, especially moms and dads, there's little that isn't taken to heart, and when the parents are more abrasive than other people's it can hurt badly. Some people seem to feel so estranged to life and confused by it they honestly don't see what they're doing that's hurtful, nor understand the consequences their actions and words visit on those around them. And then if alcohol is added to the mix it can become downright unlivable.

I try to remember that we're all just variants of a species with a larger, more difficult brain to manage...period. I try not to view anything about life and behavior as good or bad any longer - those are myths. I wouldn't even suggest forgiving anyone, instead, understand them, not as people, but as species' members. That works for me anyway.

Best to you! Your partner, if you have one is a lucky person to have you.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Thank you Ahso. I do appreciate it. And I can say I keep an eye out for your posts when I visit.

I think you are right that it is not about forgiveness it is about understanding, and that is what I've tried to do. I think it shows in the assessment of my mother in the post above. Had I been a big hearty rugger bugger I'm sure we'd have got on fine and she'd have been a great mother, unfortunately in my case a set of unfortunate circumstances and personality traits came together and that had consequences. I did mourn her when she died, but I can't say I ever missed her.

Forgiving my mother for being my mother would be like forgiving the wind for blowing: sort of irrelevant.

It's odd what can finally tip the balance to convince you something is true or not. A clincher for me in deciding whether I could trust my memory of being told I'd been diagnosed with BPD was my sig, which looked at in the new context, is absolutely pure BPD! lol
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Post by Saint_ »

magentaflame;1520653 wrote: "Bad parenting"....what actually is bad parenting?


Don't get me started. I work at an alternative school. Many times that means that I deal with the wreckage and fallout of bad parenting. It's not just active, (physically, emotionally, or verbally abusive parenting)...it can be passive as well (neglectful, dismissive, negative, and apathetic.)

Basically: think of something really mean and abusive you can do to someone, if you do it to a child, it's worse and more permanent.
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A thread of whining and self pity

Post by magentaflame »

that's true.
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Post by magentaflame »

I think in the end we eventually realise, as we get older that people who have children are exactly that . People. Personality types of all sorts .....and they breed. There are sixteen personality types and all have had children, and those children once grown are the results of their upbringing from one maybe two or four personality types. (then throw in personal experience of parents and how they manage that in their lives)Then they themselves with there own personality have children. That's the way of the world, for good or bad. When you grow up you have choices. Either dwell on the good things or regurgitate the bad. My mother was a victim of abuse from an absolutely disgusting specimen of a human being called her father...her mother and sisters were victims too. It showed in her parenting. (it showed in my aunts as well) She was spiteful, a loner, and bitter. Basically she brought her past into the future of her children. But she had a sense of humour She taught us dance thought it important that we had things to do (gymnastics/girl guides/lots of play) We were medically taken care of within a inch of our lives.lol We went to private school. (well until dad didn't think it was important anymore because we were girls) I don't have any horror stories of my mum but my sisters have very different stories and memories. Maybe I drew the lucky straw or just knew to keep out of the way? My father on the other hand..... A man of principles.(of the 1850's).... Kind, taught us many things that the average kid simply didn't come across....spent much of my childhood roaming paddocks and the bush (when mum needed a break....and dad too maybe)He was the one who used the strap. and he was the one who despite your intelligence level thought you only needed to work until marriage...now that's damaging to a young female mind, thinking you have no worth beyond child rearing. My parents stayed married from 16 and 18 year olds well into their seventies before dad died. All five of their children are divorced (some multiple times) I never ever saw my parents fight ...ever. But they did play games and we were the victims of such games. If you ever wanted or needed anything you had to ask for it when they both liked each other. pedBUT......in saying all that . We were fed, clothed, schooled, principled and safe. (well as far as they knew, some things slip through to the keeper) And like I said my sisters have a different view of things. These are our childhoods....i was lucky to have outside influences and an ear.......be that for young people . it's exactly what they need.
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Post by Clodhopper »

One sister ran away from home at 16; the other - the most intelligent of us - failed her A-Levels and left home and had kids asap (years later had a successful career), I'm me and my brother is a top doctor in the NHS and the only one my mother had a good relationship with. (None of us are actually related, all adopted).

Very mixed results. All married, none lasted.

I worked for a year or so with emotionally and behaviourally damaged kids but was not (am not) sufficiently stable in myself for it to be a realistic long term career. Some of the stories though... Your earliest memories are of your mum doing strangers to pay for her habit? Not good.

There's a tendency to look at cases like that and compare them with my own and say what have I to complain of in comparison? I got a first rate eddicashun and 3 meals a day. Thing is, just because you aren't boiled in oil it doesn't mean you can't have been burned...

...though I suspect if I had had that sort of "upbringing" I'd be dead or locked up by now.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

A thread of whining and self pity

Post by Clodhopper »

Magentaflame: It's taken me this long to get through your last post.

There is actually a positive here: The real major horrors we hear of are from generations back. We cannot cure perhaps but we can mitigate. And it wouldn't surprise me to find both our parents said something similar.

Heck, I've not been perfect especially in the bad times. But we can make it better going forward.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."

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