New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

User avatar
Jazzy
Posts: 2962
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:17 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Jazzy »

In NurtureShock, they described some extensive cross-ethnic and international research on spanking by Drs. Jennifer Lansford and Ken Dodge.

Their data suggested that if a culture views spanking as the normal consequence for bad behavior, kids aren’t damaged by its occasional use.

To explain this shocker, the scholars suggested that in cultures or communities where spanking is common, parents are less agitated when administering spankings. Spanking almost never—when combined with losing your temper—can be worse than spanking frequently.

But what about the third option: not spanking them at all?

Unfortunately, there’s been little study of this, because children who’ve never been spanked aren’t easy to find. Most kids receive physical discipline at least once in their life. But times are changing, and parents today have numerous alternatives to spanking. The result is that kids are spanked less often overall, and kids who’ve never been spanked are becoming a bigger slice of the pie in long-term population studies.

One of those new population studies underway is called Portraits of American Life. It involves interviews of 2,600 people and their adolescent children every three years for the next 20 years. Dr. Marjorie Gunnoe is working with the first wave of data on the teens. It turns out that almost a quarter of these teens report they were never spanked.

So this is a perfect opportunity to answer some questions: Are kids who’ve never been spanked any better off, long term? Have you ever been spanked? Do you agree or disagree with this study?

Link: New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them - NurtureShock Blog - Newsweek.com
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

hmm they could do a study on kids that hev never been spanked, but i think a lot would also depend on what alternative disciplne was used, if any?




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
Jazzy
Posts: 2962
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:17 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Jazzy »

kazalala;1277959 wrote: hmm they could do a study on kids that hev never been spanked, but i think a lot would also depend on what alternative disciplne was used, if any?


Have you ever been spanked?
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

Jazzy;1277961 wrote: Have you ever been spanked?


yes




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Whats "new" about this so called research? People have been saying that spanking is better than not spanking for ever.

I love it when a person says: I was spanked as a kid and I turned out okay. No you didn't turn out okay...You think its okay to visit violence and humiliation on your children....YOU'RE NOT OKAY!

If its good to spank children than surely is good to hit your pets, right? Dog, cats, birds - do the spanker's hit their pets?

I once had a school principal tell me that they had the right to use corporal punishment on my kids unless I wrote a letter otherwise. My reply to that was: you lay one hand on any of my kids and I'll be down here laying my hands on you, and if I'm prevented from do so, you'll be spending an awful large amount of those school funds on legal fees.

The only lesson my kids would have gotten out of spanking is: someone spanks them and then they get to see me beat the sh!t out of that person either physically or legally - either one works for me.

Oh yea! I was not spanked nor were any of my kids.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

Ahso!;1277970 wrote: Whats "new" about this so called research? People have been saying that spanking is better than not spanking for ever.

I love it when a person says: I was spanked as a kid and I turned out okay. No you didn't turn out okay...You think its okay to visit violence and humiliation on your children....YOU'RE NOT OKAY!

If its good to spank children than surely is good to hit your pets, right? Dog, cats, birds - do the spanker's hit their pets?

I once had a school principal tell me that they had the right to use corporal punishment on my kids unless I wrote a letter otherwise. My reply to that was: you lay one hand on any of my kids and I'll be down here laying my hands on you, and if I'm prevented from do so, you'll be spending an awful large amount of those school funds on legal fees.

The only lesson my kids would have gotten out of spanking is: someone spanks them and then they get to see me beat the sh!t out of that person either physically or legally - either one works for me.

Oh yea! I was not spanked nor were any of my kids.


I always used to say this! If my mam or dad had takena large stick and beaten me with it they would have been done for child abuse, yet it ws ok for a teacher to do it???

I was spanked, not excessivily, but spanked nonetheless. I spanked my kids, until i came to the realisation i was wrong to do that and stopped. There was always, but always another way to discipline.




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
Odie
Posts: 33482
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:10 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Odie »

I was spanked and I can honestly say, I deserved it.....but it hurt my feelings.:-1



I never once spanked my kids as I knew it hurt like hell, it was physical abuse and it hurts a child emotionally.:-5



Reasoning, explaining, grounding, taking away the things they enjoy for a week, maybe 2, maybe a month?

- no using the phone

- no t.v.

- taking away their favorite toys

- no computers back then, if it was now, computer would remain unplugged, cell phone taken away etc.

-coming home immediately after school without talking to friends

-not aloud to go out evenings nor weekends.

-no indoor activities



there are so many options than spanking.
Life is just to short for drama.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Odie;1277978 wrote: I was spanked and I can honestly say, I deserved it.....but it hurt my feelings.:-1



I never once spanked my kids as I knew it hurt like hell, it was physical abuse and it hurts a child emotionally.:-5



Reasoning, explaining, grounding, taking away the things they enjoy for a week, maybe 2, maybe a month?

- no using the phone

- no t.v.

- taking away their favorite toys

- no computers back then, if it was now, computer would remain unplugged, cell phone taken away etc.

-coming home immediately after school without talking to friends

-not aloud to go out evenings nor weekends.

-no indoor activities



there are so many options than spanking.Good for you, Odie.

It amazes me when I hear of people hitting their kids. Its obvious that they were not ready to have children and are therefore no different than a 13 year old that has children - neither one is capable of caring for them as needed.

The saving grace is the children themselves because they are so likely to give intellectually ill equipped parents unending forgiveness for what they'd done, even to the point of adopting the bad behavior themselves.

Stop the hitting, people, it's now the 21st century - get some education and find some self respect so you can pass that on to your kids instead of this absurd and sickening behavior.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

kazalala;1277975 wrote: I always used to say this! If my mam or dad had takena large stick and beaten me with it they would have been done for child abuse, yet it ws ok for a teacher to do it???

I was spanked, not excessivily, but spanked nonetheless. I spanked my kids, until i came to the realisation i was wrong to do that and stopped. There was always, but always another way to discipline.Kaz, the more of you I learn of, the more respect I gain for you. It takes a lot of courage and love to be willing to take a critical look at oneself and make adjustments. Your family must have enormous respect for you, as do I.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

Ahso!;1277981 wrote: Kaz, the more of you I learn of, the more respect I gain for you. It takes a lot of courage and love to be willing to take a critical look at oneself and make adjustments. Your family must have enormous respect for you, as do I.


Thank you, i appreciate that:)




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
Jazzy
Posts: 2962
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:17 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Jazzy »

I have to start this by saying I was raised by my dad who was in the military. Every single thing that he felt was "out of place" or did not "confirm to military" standards was rewarded by a spanking (belt and buckle included). He was, I guess, trying to "drill" into me a higher standard. There came a time that I went to school and was pulled from class to the Principales office and there were Police Officers there. They asked me how I got all black & blue and wanted me to sign some kind of paper. I refused and asked them to call my dad. My dad came and picked me up but later in life, I realized they wanted me to sign a child abuse report. My dad (who has passed away) I knew would never hurt me and to this day, I have him to thank. Some of you will say, thank him for what? Thanks for beating your child? Nope, I say to my dad, thank you for making me the strong person I am today and I strive each and every day to go above and beyond (if possible) the potential I hold within myself. He was brought up to hit and the cycle has ended.
yaaarrrgg
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:29 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by yaaarrrgg »

I've heard of that book but probably won't bother reading it.

Some religions, particularly the Southern Baptist cult (what I was raised in), actually strongly advocate spanking. I was spanked but not nearly as much as my older brother. When my brother was a teenager, he really wasn't a bad a kid at all, but my father had a lot of aggression towards him. Maybe because my brother wasn't mindless and obedient enough.

I recall almost every day for what seemed like a year my father would practically pick a fight, then it would result in spanking my brother. This was the old-school method of corporal punishment, where we were forced to take off our pants and were hit with a belt. (In some cases they actually quoted Bible verses when they did it, justifying their actions ... such as "Spareth the rod"). One day, when my brother was in high school, he pulled the belt out of my father's hands and gave him a good whipping back. I think that might have been the last time my brother was smacked around.

The whole basis of spanking is just bullying, and humiliation. The parents who choose to do so are acting cowardly. The spankers would never dare lay a finger on someone that could fight back, they just pick on people smaller than themselves. But if a person can't control themselves, they have no right to try to control anyone else.

Since what goes around comes around, the next article from the researchers ought to be:

"New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Elderly People Than Spanking Them." :)
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Clodhopper »

I am always uncomfortable with this idea that one form of treatment will magically work for all kids. There was far too much violence masquerading as discipline in my childhood and it had serious consequences for my personal development and the rest of my life. As in yargggg's case it didn't stop 'til I hit back (in my case, aged 17). But equally, I can accept that on a different person like Jazzy, spanking might work out well. (Um, please take that the way I meant it! :wah:)

My default position, though, is to be against spanking.

Except for fun. :lips:
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

yaaarrrgg;1277995 wrote: I've heard of that book but probably won't bother reading it.

Some religions, particularly the Southern Baptist cult (what I was raised in), actually strongly advocate spanking. I was spanked but not nearly as much as my older brother. When my brother was a teenager, he really wasn't a bad a kid at all, but my father had a lot of aggression towards him. Maybe because my brother wasn't mindless and obedient enough.

I recall almost every day for what seemed like a year my father would practically pick a fight, then it would result in spanking my brother. This was the old-school method of corporal punishment, where we were forced to take off our pants and were hit with a belt. (In some cases they actually quoted Bible verses when they did it, justifying their actions ... such as "Spareth the rod"). One day, when my brother was in high school, he pulled the belt out of my father's hands and gave him a good whipping back. I think that might have been the last time my brother was smacked around.

The whole basis of spanking is just bullying, and humiliation. The parents who choose to do so are acting cowardly. The spankers would never dare lay a finger on someone that could fight back, they just pick on people smaller than themselves. But if a person can't control themselves, they have no right to try to control anyone else.

Since what goes around comes around, the next article from the researchers ought to be:

"New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Elderly People Than Spanking Them." :)
What a good post!:)

Clodhopper;1277998 wrote: I am always uncomfortable with this idea that one form of treatment will magically work for all kids. There was far too much violence masquerading as discipline in my childhood and it had serious consequences for my personal development and the rest of my life. As in yargggg's case it didn't stop 'til I hit back (in my case, aged 17). But equally, I can accept that on a different person like Jazzy, spanking might work out well. (Um, please take that the way I meant it! :wah:)

My default position, though, is to be against spanking.

Except for fun. :lips:
:eek::yh_rotfl:sneaky:




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
Odie
Posts: 33482
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:10 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Odie »

Ahso!;1277980 wrote: Good for you, Odie.

It amazes me when I hear of people hitting their kids. Its obvious that they were not ready to have children and are therefore no different than a 13 year old that has children - neither one is capable of caring for them as needed.

The saving grace is the children themselves because they are so likely to give intellectually ill equipped parents unending forgiveness for what they'd done, even to the point of adopting the bad behavior themselves.

Stop the hitting, people, it's now the 21st century - get some education and find some self respect so you can pass that on to your kids instead of this absurd and sickening behavior.


thank you Ahso!

raising teenagers....is not so easy:yh_rotfl
Life is just to short for drama.
fuzzywuzzy
Posts: 6596
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by fuzzywuzzy »

kazalala;1277975 wrote: I always used to say this! If my mam or dad had takena large stick and beaten me with it they would have been done for child abuse, yet it ws ok for a teacher to do it???

I was spanked, not excessivily, but spanked nonetheless. I spanked my kids, until i came to the realisation i was wrong to do that and stopped. There was always, but always another way to discipline.


Me too Kaz. but for a different reason. I was smacked and strapped as a child for punishment not discipline. It made it easier for me to accept later in life any man who wanted to punish me. I have three sons. I don't want them learning that if you're frustrated you have a "right" to hit your wife or children. I stopped smacking my eldest when he was two years old and only once across the face when he was about 16. (poor boy got into my face and found out that trying to intimidate your mother is not the right thing to do. but along with that slap across the face was a lecture about what will happen when he's out in society and does it to someone else ...it won't be just a slap) My 14 year old will probably do this too. And he'll get the same slap. But apart from that, so far my two youngest do not know what it's like to be hit by a parent.

I think there are well thought out reasons sometimes to give a young child a tap over the wrist . for instance if you have a young child who wants to touch a fire place or stove (you do get your determined ones.) If you give them a tap over the back of the hand and say "burnys" they get the message. Their brain is able to compute that information. Prefer that, to third degree burns.
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

fuzzywuzzy;1278290 wrote: Me too Kaz. but for a different reason. I was smacked and strapped as a child for punishment not discipline. It made it easier for me to accept later in life any man who wanted to punish me. I have three sons. I don't want them learning that if you're frustrated you have a "right" to hit your wife or children. I stopped smacking my eldest when he was two years old and only once across the face when he was about 16. (poor boy got into my face and found out that trying to intimidate your mother is not the right thing to do. but along with that slap across the face was a lecture about what will happen when he's out in society and does it to someone else ...it won't be just a slap) My 14 year old will probably do this too. And he'll get the same slap. But apart from that, so far my two youngest do not know what it's like to be hit by a parent.

I think there are well thought out reasons sometimes to give a young child a tap over the wrist . for instance if you have a young child who wants to touch a fire place or stove (you do get your determined ones.) If you give them a tap over the back of the hand and say "burnys" they get the message. Their brain is able to compute that information. Prefer that, to third degree burns.


See i still cant agree with that fuzz,, even though yes i have done it! At the time i thought i had good reason,, well thought out reason,, and im not one of those that get on my high horse even now to people who believe in what they call a gentle tap or smack etc,,, i cant as i did it myself and know they think they are doing the right thing,,, In my opinion its wrong, i came to that decision on my own and still believe it now, i cant find any way at all to condone it. A child who wants to touch a fire or a stove should be watched carefully and removed away from the stove as amany times as it takes to get through to them. I once spent over an hour moving my daughter back away from the plug sockets where she wanted to stick her fingers, she was having the temper tantrum from hell and her determinatio had to be admired:wah: repeatedly going back to the socket, and me repeatedly taking her away and saying no. Its very hard but its always possible to find another way than smacking.

saying as long as you dont hit hard,, just a gentle tap ,, well whats the point if its a gentle tap? whats the point of a smack if it dont hurt? I get pretty irritated and annoyed at my husband sometimes as im sure he does with me but we dont smack each other:wah:




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
Saint_
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: The Four Corners
Contact:

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Saint_ »

Jazzy;1277988 wrote: I have to start this by saying I was raised by my dad who was in the military. Every single thing that he felt was "out of place" or did not "confirm to military" standards was rewarded by a spanking (belt and buckle included). He was, I guess, trying to "drill" into me a higher standard. There came a time that I went to school and was pulled from class to the Principales office and there were Police Officers there. They asked me how I got all black & blue and wanted me to sign some kind of paper. I refused and asked them to call my dad. My dad came and picked me up but later in life, I realized they wanted me to sign a child abuse report. My dad (who has passed away) I knew would never hurt me and to this day, I have him to thank. Some of you will say, thank him for what? Thanks for beating your child? Nope, I say to my dad, thank you for making me the strong person I am today and I strive each and every day to go above and beyond (if possible) the potential I hold within myself. He was brought up to hit and the cycle has ended.


Interestingly Jazzy, you turned out to be one of the most intelligent and focused (and I'm betting successful) people on this board. Is there a connection? I'm betting there is. Standards of conduct in a family, and especially morals and values, are not only critical, their absence is the root cause of many of the societal problems you see today!

"Spare the rod, spoil the child" says the Bible. So even our ancestors understood that certain lessons, like not running out into traffic or drinking poisons, must be learned instantly and for all time.

A quick swat on the butt carries very little real pain, but what it does do is carry monstrous embarrassment supercharged with a nervous shock. You can bet that lesson will not be forgotten. (And yes, in way, I do the same thing with my kittens - although a squirt bottle shocks them more and does not make them people-shy.)

That said, spanking is for the very young because it is an instantly understandable consequence. By the age of four or five, there are other, more creative and effective methods of discipline such as loss of privileges and grounding.;)
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Saint_;1278570 wrote: Interestingly Jazzy, you turned out to be one of the most intelligent and focused (and I'm betting successful) people on this board. Is there a connection? I'm betting there is. Standards of conduct in a family, and especially morals and values, are not only critical, their absence is the root cause of many of the societal problems you see today!So, the problems should remain behind closed doors?

Saint_;1278570 wrote: "Spare the rod, spoil the child" says the Bible. So even our ancestors understood that certain lessons, like not running out into traffic or drinking poisons, must be learned instantly and for all time.They also thought thunder was the gods reacting to peoples behavior. I guess we should continue to believe that?

Saint_;1278570 wrote: A quick swat on the butt carries very little real pain, but what it does do is carry monstrous embarrassment supercharged with a nervous shock. You can bet that lesson will not be forgotten. (And yes, in way, I do the same thing with my kittens - although a squirt bottle shocks them more and does not make them people-shy.)Its also the non thinking persons method of communicating.

Saint_;1278570 wrote: That said, spanking is for the very young because it is an instantly understandable consequence. By the age of four or five, there are other, more creative and effective methods of discipline such as loss of privileges and grounding.;)Its probably more accurate to say its for the very young because they can't fight back. But be careful because they get older and everyone has to sleep - make sure your bedroom door is locked.:)
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
Saint_
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: The Four Corners
Contact:

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Saint_ »

Ahso!;1278590 wrote: So, the problems should remain behind closed doors?

They also thought thunder was the gods reacting to peoples behavior. I guess we should continue to believe that?


Are you saying the Bible is wrong and has no truth in it?

Its also the non thinking persons method of communicating.


Think: "non-thinking" is not a word.

Its probably more accurate to say its for the very young because they can't fight back. But be careful because they get older and everyone has to sleep - make sure your bedroom door is locked.:)


Are you threatened again, Ahso? You seem to be threatened by everything I say. I'm terribly sorry that you had no discipline in your family. Discipline and expectations are very necessary for a child to be successful... even in literacy skills!:sneaky:

ROFLMAO!:yh_rotfl
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Saint_;1278594 wrote: Are you saying the Bible is wrong and has no truth in it?The bible has no authority for me. Take that any way you like.



Saint_;1278594 wrote: Think: "non-thinking" is not a word.It is now! Petty insult though.



Saint_;1278594 wrote: Are you threatened again, Ahso? You seem to be threatened by everything I say. I'm terribly sorry that you had no discipline in your family. Discipline and expectations are very necessary for a child to be successful... even in literacy skills!:sneaky:

ROFLMAO!:yh_rotflIs this how you run from challenges, by accusing others of being threatened by what you say? Or are you attempting to shock me into reality?
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
Saint_
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: The Four Corners
Contact:

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Saint_ »

And to put down Ahso's "fighting" allusion: There is a major difference between a quick spank on the Gluteous Maximus and a fist to the face. To throw out something like that, (and I expected it) is nothing but inflammatory and vacuous rhetoric. It's a playground tactic.

No one is advocating that kind of violence here and for Ahso to imply it is disrespectful.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Saint_;1278597 wrote: And to put down Ahso's "fighting" allusion: There is a major difference between a quick spank on the Gluteous Maximus and a fist to the face. To throw out something like that, (and I expected it) is nothing but inflammatory and vacuous rhetoric. It's a playground tactic.

No one is advocating that kind of violence here and for Ahso to imply it is disrespectful.Its all relative, Saint. You've obviously forgotten how small you felt when you were spanked.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
Saint_
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: The Four Corners
Contact:

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Saint_ »

I didn't get spanked much, Ahso, but you're wrong... I never forgot a single time it happened, nor did I fail to learn the lessons involved all of which were critical to my success as an adult.

Again, I am the expert here. I deal daily with the consequences of a lack of discipline in household. It has been directly linked to juvenile delinquency and social failure. I have seen your brand of "raising" children. I talked to a mother once and asked her why her daughter had missed 85 days of school. She replied, "I can't get her up to go. If I try, she'll punch holes in the wall." Now... who's running that family?

Just curious, Ahso, do you have any children? What do you do when they talk back, steal, get violent with other children, or vandalize? Is a good 'talking to" really an effective deterrent for a 2-year-old that darts out in front of cars without looking? I think not.:rolleyes:
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Just one question before we go any further, Saint. Am I to take what you say in this thread seriously? You like to make it a point in almost any thread you participate in that you're really not being you, and you are not letting on who you really are. Is there a way to perhaps color code your sentences for accuracy, like black for serious and red for not serious? You pick the colors.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

Saint_;1278608 wrote: I didn't get spanked much, Ahso, but you're wrong... I never forgot a single time it happened, nor did I fail to learn the lessons involved all of which were critical to my success as an adult.

Again, I am the expert here. I deal daily with the consequences of a lack of discipline in household. It has been directly linked to juvenile delinquency and social failure. I have seen your brand of "raising" children. I talked to a mother once and asked her why her daughter had missed 85 days of school. She replied, "I can't get her up to go. If I try, she'll punch holes in the wall." Now... who's running that family?

Just curious, Ahso, do you have any children? What do you do when they talk back, steal, get violent with other children, or vandalize? Is a good 'talking to" really an effective deterrent for a 2-year-old that darts out in front of cars without looking? I think not.:rolleyes:


Anticipate, if you are near a road with a 2 year old, keep hold of their hand:)




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
Saint_
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: The Four Corners
Contact:

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Saint_ »

Ahso!;1278612 wrote: Just one question before we go any further, Saint. Am I to take what you say in this thread seriously? You like to make it a point in almost any thread you participate in that you're really not being you, and you are not letting on who you really are. Is there a way to perhaps color code your sentences for accuracy, like black for serious and red for not serious? You pick the colors.


Whoops, you dodged the question.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Saint_;1278618 wrote: Whoops, you dodged the question.I'm more than happy to continue if I'm told its worth my time. Let me know, otherwise, we're finished here.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Clodhopper »

Again, I am the expert here. I deal daily with the consequences of a lack of discipline in household. It has been directly linked to juvenile delinquency and social failure.


But there is a difference between "discipline" and "violence". Either can exist without the other. A well disciplined child does not become a juvenile delinquent, whether a little spanking is involved or not. A badly disciplined child may well - and violence with bad discipline MUST be the worst combination. I'd regard consistent non-violent discipline as the best form.

Don't see the need for baiting in this discussion, though. From any side.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »





FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Clodhopper »

:wah:

Kaz - it's come up as "Account inactive".
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

Clodhopper;1278635 wrote: :wah:

Kaz - it's come up as "Account inactive".


dammit:wah: *inset picture of a gooseberry here*:sneaky::sneaky::D




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
yaaarrrgg
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:29 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by yaaarrrgg »

Saint_;1278570 wrote:

"Spare the rod, spoil the child" says the Bible. So even our ancestors understood that certain lessons, like not running out into traffic or drinking poisons, must be learned instantly and for all time.




Do you think this is sensible parenting advice?

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Note the words: every one, and surely.
User avatar
Saint_
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: The Four Corners
Contact:

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Saint_ »

yaaarrrgg;1278700 wrote: Do you think this is sensible parenting advice?

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Note the words: every one, and surely.


LOL! Don't get me wrong, I would never put forth the Bible as literal. I merely imply that ancient people understood some basic things about living. Just because people were not technologically proficient, does not make them stupid.:-6
yaaarrrgg
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:29 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by yaaarrrgg »

Saint_;1278704 wrote: LOL! Don't get me wrong, I would never put forth the Bible as literal. I merely imply that ancient people understood some basic things about living. Just because people were not technologically proficient, does not make them stupid.:-6


Some people interpret "spare the rod" non-literally as well. A Rod is a unit of measure, like a Foot, or Hand. It might be interpreted as

"If a child's behaviour doesn't measure up to your standards, and you ignore it, you will spoil the child."

Isn't there another verse that says if you beat a child with the rod he won't die? That wouldn't be true unless they were talking about an abstraction. Since beating a child can kill. So both would support a non-literal interpretation.

Or maybe the authors were just child beaters.
fuzzywuzzy
Posts: 6596
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Saint_;1278608 wrote: I didn't get spanked much, Ahso, but you're wrong... I never forgot a single time it happened, nor did I fail to learn the lessons involved all of which were critical to my success as an adult.

Again, I am the expert here. I deal daily with the consequences of a lack of discipline in household. It has been directly linked to juvenile delinquency and social failure. I have seen your brand of "raising" children. I talked to a mother once and asked her why her daughter had missed 85 days of school. She replied, "I can't get her up to go. If I try, she'll punch holes in the wall." Now... who's running that family?

Just curious, Ahso, do you have any children? What do you do when they talk back, steal, get violent with other children, or vandalize? Is a good 'talking to" really an effective deterrent for a 2-year-old that darts out in front of cars without looking? I think not.:rolleyes:


I would call that supervision rather than a discipline matter. A two year old "LOOKS" for cars? Not in my life time they haven't . For one, children do not have the perception of depth before the age of seven. They can't judge the distance of a car coming towards them. They will mimic, but they can't retain the information needed to evaluate time and reason.

The mother of the daughter is still in charge of that household and family . Her choices do not sound very wise in discipline matters. the daughter isn't running anything but tantrums. ................I thought you said you were the expert here?

And I don't believe in any sense of the word that Jazzy was made 'strong' by a belt buckle!!!!! Her resolve made her strong (if she really is) not a belting.
User avatar
spot
Posts: 41336
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by spot »

Saint_;1278608 wrote: Just curious, Ahso, do you have any children? What do you do when they talk back, steal, get violent with other children, or vandalize? Is a good 'talking to" really an effective deterrent for a 2-year-old that darts out in front of cars without looking? I think not.:rolleyes:


On a minor note, any two year old who is ever in a position to be able to dart out in front of cars without looking should immediately be placed in care until the parent has been totally re-educated.

I came across a phrase which relates to this thread. The most effective discipline strategy is to make sure your child wants to please you. It deals with all the cases you raise here, except the final "parenting without due care and attention" one.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
User avatar
Saint_
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: The Four Corners
Contact:

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Saint_ »

Look you guys, the 2-year old example was just an example of lessons that must be learned critically and instantly. (And any of you that think a two-year old is not capable of escaping your grasp or attention unexpectedly when you are suddenly distracted are living in a dream world) Fill in your own example then.:thinking:

And fuzzy, you can bet that I certainly didn't condone the mother's parenting skills. Nor did I teach her how to parent, that's not my job.;)

What I am saying in this thread is that there are times when a quick swat to the bottom is a valuable tool in a parent's toolbox of discipline.

Since none of you liked my two-year old example, tell me what you think would warrant a spank on the butt?

Lying to your face?

Stealing?

Biting you or another family member?

Deliberately torturing an animal?

Deliberate vandalism?

Setting fire to the house?
User avatar
kazalala
Posts: 13036
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:00 am

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by kazalala »

Saint_;1279084 wrote: Look you guys, the 2-year old example was just an example of lessons that must be learned critically and instantly. (And any of you that think a two-year old is not capable of escaping your grasp or attention unexpectedly when you are suddenly distracted are living in a dream world) Fill in your own example then.:thinking:

And fuzzy, you can bet that I certainly didn't condone the mother's parenting skills. Nor did I teach her how to parent, that's not my job.;)

What I am saying in this thread is that there are times when a quick swat to the bottom is a valuable tool in a parent's toolbox of discipline.

Since none of you liked my two-year old example, tell me what you think would warrant a spank on the butt?

Lying to your face?

Stealing?

Biting you or another family member?

Deliberately torturing an animal?

Deliberate vandalism?

Setting fire to the house?


I dont think a toddler isnt capable of escaping a grasp,, i have got children you know, grown up now of course.

I dont think anything warrants hitting a child. Depending on age a lot of things they get hit for is not a deliberate act of spite or malice on their part. I respect your opinion thats what you think is right and ok,, i am not trying to make you see that I am right and you are wrong. Im just saying thats my opinion, through my own experiences.




FOC THREAD PART1

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.

Martin Luther King Jr.
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

kazalala;1279088 wrote: I dont think a toddler isnt capable of escaping a grasp,, i have got children you know, grown up now of course.

I dont think anything warrants hitting a child. Depending on age a lot of things they get hit for is not a deliberate act of spite or malice on their part. I respect your opinion thats what you think is right and ok,, i am not trying to make you see that I am right and you are wrong. Im just saying thats my opinion, through my own experiences.Not to mention that the examples given are those of a intentionally minded individual and not that of a toddler. The sad fact is that in the examples provided the spanking and other poor parenting habits probably led to the young persons bad behavior.

OTOH - if people are turning out babies as described above then I'd stop reproducing because theres something wrong with the genes of the parents.

When you hit your kids, you're hitting yourself.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Heres what some real experts say about this.

(WOMENSENEWS)--A growing body of evidence indicates that perhaps the parent or authority figure who uses the rod, spoils, or at least harms, the child, especially a girl child.

In fact, a growing number of experts believe that children, in general, and girls, in particular, should not be spanked at home or subjected to corporal punishment at school. Experts say such spankings can precondition girls to accept violence and boys to rely on it.

All studies show that boys are spanked significantly more than girls, but there are special concerns with girls who are spanked. Of particular concern is the sexual aspect of spanking girls.

"When a girl is spanked by her father or paddled by a male school teacher, she is being trained to submit," says Jordan Riak, a retired school teacher and the executive director of Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education, a California-based nonprofit group dedicated to getting corporal punishment banned in U.S. schools.Experts: Spanking Harms Children, Especially Girls | Womens eNewsChildren who are spanked or victims of other corporal punishment are more likely to have sexual problems as a teen or adult, according to new research presented today by Murray Straus, co-director of the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire.

Widely considered the foremost researcher in his field, Straus presented his new research findings at the American Psychological Association’s Summit on Violence and Abuse in Relationships: Connecting Agendas and Forging New Directions held Feb. 28 and 29 at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Bethesda, MD.

Straus analyzed the results of four studies and found that spanking and other corporal punishment by parents is associated with an increased probability of three sexual problems as a teen or adult:

• Verbally and physically coercing a dating partner to have sex.

• Risky sex such as premarital sex without a condom.

• Masochistic sex such as being aroused by being spanked when having sex.Spanking Kids Increases Risk of Sexual Problems as Adults | Science Blog
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
fuzzywuzzy
Posts: 6596
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Lying to your face?

Stealing?

Biting you or another family member?

Deliberately torturing an animal?

Deliberate vandalism?

Setting fire to the house?


Nope nothing there would have me hit my boys. My boys know (because I always tell them) lying to me just encourages distrust . Especially if they want trust for a particular freedom. Freedoms are based on trust. My boys have many freedoms because of trust . and they know those freedoms are taken away when the trust is broken. Lying is also a natural self preservation tactic of human beings. you don't say to the child you're lying to me, you are bad. You say what lying is ...(basically a 'fear based reasoning' ). I've done this myself ....To fix lying ? Ask the child what they think will happen if they tell the truth. Their fears and imagination will outweigh anything you had install for them as punishment.

But also children go through phases or milestones. It's just cells connecting to other cells in the brain as they grow. And yes this can go on right throughout teenagehood, cells connecting at the same time a child is connecting with the world has it's variations and problems.

Stealing.:wah: my middle son went through a phase of stealing .....not sure what it was all about, but he just picked things up and kept them. Then suddenly it stopped. He is fourteen and laughs about it now . And I did ask him what he thought about it . he said ..."I was just little then." so in the fourteen year olds mind he sees it as not making any sense and an imature state of mind.

Hmmm biting. My youngest was a biter. Again a milestone /phase. Younger children see the world through their mouths for a long time. That's why they put everything in it. To show affection they bite/taste, to show anger or frustration they bite/taste. To smack a child out of it (in my opinion) is to stop a progression of natural and instinctual understanding . Albeit tell the child that they have hurt another person of course . children over the age of two have begun to have an afinity with other humans and a sympathaphetic understanding of others. Before this age group though it's all out war I'm afraid. Inner thighs, shoulders, breasts is the war zone. But most mothers and fathers know this.:wah:

torturing ? What age group? Older children - a psycholigist if they don't understand what they are doing is not acceptable.

Younger children? Well I think young girls stuffing kitty into a pram and wheeling it around is a form of torture:yh_rotfl but really I need to know what you mean by torture. most younger children don't know what they are doing during a game is torturous to an animal.



Vandalism. I've mentioned this in another thread. My middle son did this with a couple of school mates. I went and bought wood, paint, sand paper, hand tools. and they had to fix what they broke and to a standard that was better than when they broke it........You break it , you fix it , is the rule in this house.

Setting fire to anything is another area that would need a psycholigist for older children . Younger children can be persistant and inquisitive. Hide your matches and lighter. Young children do not have the foresight to see that something they see adults control and use everyday can be extremely dangerous. Fire is common to us all, children see this and treat it as common.

do not measure a child by an adults yardstick . It simply doesn't work, because they will never measure up............. they are below the yardstick line.
fuzzywuzzy
Posts: 6596
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by fuzzywuzzy »

In fact, a growing number of experts believe that children, in general, and girls, in particular, should not be spanked at home or subjected to corporal punishment at school. Experts say such spankings can precondition girls to accept violence and boys to rely on it.




I am a living, breathing example of this. when asked constantly after I left my husband and during the marriage why I accepted this situation I couldnt put it into words because I just didn't know. Although very injured and to this day I carry those injuries all I can come up with is it was a normal thing for me. It's happened all my life.

What's interesting about that statement is the fact that more girls are likely to be sexually abused at home and boys, outside the home. a link maybe?
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

I tip my hat to you, Fuzzy.:-6
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
fuzzywuzzy
Posts: 6596
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:35 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by fuzzywuzzy »

Nah don't ..I'm still annoying and sarcastic. :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl
User avatar
spot
Posts: 41336
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by spot »

Saint_;1279084 wrote: Since none of you liked my two-year old example, tell me what you think would warrant a spank on the butt?

Lying to your face?

Stealing?

Biting you or another family member?

Deliberately torturing an animal?

Deliberate vandalism?

Setting fire to the house?


Absolutely nothing "would warrant a spank on the butt" of a two year old. it would be behaviour on a scale comparable with burning Jews in gas ovens. Nor any other child of any other age, come to that.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Clodhopper »

Absolutely nothing "would warrant a spank on the butt" of a two year old. it would be behaviour on a scale comparable with burning Jews in gas ovens. Nor any other child of any other age, come to that.


Overstated, in my opinion. The differing motivations behind the actions, alone, would be enough; but in addition the consequences of a single slap are highly unlikely to be immediate death.

It seems to me you are drawing a moral equivalence between all wrong actions and saying they are the same. Beyond the premise that they are both wrong actions (and that is at least arguably not the case) I do not see that. I'd be hard pressed not to shoot the gas oven people, but I'd suggest questioning whether spanking is good discipline would be a more appropriate response than shooting or life imprisonment for the parent involved .
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Ahso!
Posts: 10215
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:38 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Ahso! »

Clodhopper;1279253 wrote: Overstated, in my opinion. The differing motivations behind the actions, alone, would be enough; but in addition the consequences of a single slap are highly unlikely to be immediate death.

It seems to me you are drawing a moral equivalence between all wrong actions and saying they are the same. Beyond the premise that they are both wrong actions (and that is at least arguably not the case) I do not see that. I'd be hard pressed not to shoot the gas oven people, but I'd suggest questioning whether spanking is good discipline would be a more appropriate response than shooting or life imprisonment for the parent involved .I didn't get that from Spot's post. What I heard was the reasoning behind the action, in this case, the so called adult, is comparable with the reasoning of extermination of Jewish people in concentration camps. I think he was saying that the logic is similarly outrageous.

But I could be incorrect, so I'll wait for Spot to clarify.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities,”

Voltaire



I have only one thing to do and that's

Be the wave that I am and then

Sink back into the ocean

Fiona Apple
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by Clodhopper »

Ahso: Well, we're into "If so" at that point so yeah, better to wait.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
spot
Posts: 41336
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:19 pm
Location: Brigstowe

New Research: Why Never Spanking Might Be Worse for Kids Than Spanking Them

Post by spot »

Ahso!;1279257 wrote: I didn't get that from Spot's post. What I heard was the reasoning behind the action, in this case, the so called adult, is comparable with the reasoning of extermination of Jewish people in concentration camps. I think he was saying that the logic is similarly outrageous.

But I could be incorrect, so I'll wait for Spot to clarify.


I think it falls into the framework of that's what was considered legal in the country at the time (the Nuremberg rulings were retroactive), that lots of other people were doing it, that it was a reasonable reaction to obvious and generally recognized wickedness. Hindsight provides a different viewpoint which wasn't available at the time. Hindsight will, I suggest, consider physical disciplining of children to be utterly abusive and harmful, just as eventually it will regard abortion the same way once birth control becomes in inherent choice for women as opposed to an external intervention. I think the society of the future will totally reject both.

Physically disciplining children degrades both the victim and the inflictor. The fact that the inflictor is oblivious to the degradation doesn't make the act acceptable at all.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Post Reply

Return to “Kids Family”