celtic fan taunts war hero the AA grumpy column

[pantoandy]

good evening my faithfull grump followers.

now what the hell this has to do with a rangers . celtic match baffles me

then you wonder why parents will not take their children to football matches.

this scottish fool should be banned from celtics ground and home and away matches for life.



A SICK Celtic fan taunts brave Falklands hero Simon Weston - by waving an ARGENTINA shirt during yesterday's Old Firm clash.

The vile stunt came as war veteran Simon - who suffered horrific burns in the conflict - was a guest of Rangers' charity at Ibrox.

Furious ex-Army major Mike Rumbles MSP said: "It is totally unacceptable. This mindless rivalry between Old Firm fans has now hit a new low. This is deplorable."

It's claimed other Hoops fans heaped more shame on their club during their 1-0 defeat by chanting the name of the South American country and waving its flag.

Former SAS commander and top civil servant Clive Fairweather said: "It is very extreme and disappointing.

Celtic fan’s sick Falklands War stunt | The Sun |Home Scotland|Scottish News

[spot]

I wonder whether we can manage a little analysis without getting our tempers frayed?

In what sense is Simon Weston a war hero?

[G#Gill]

spot;1293832 wrote: I wonder whether we can manage a little analysis without getting our tempers frayed?

In what sense is Simon Weston a war hero?


All men/women who attended the Falklands war, whether they were hurt, killed or unscathed, were IMO heroes. Now are you going to analyse my sentence? I cannot see what there is to analyse, but be my guest if you must get it out of your system.

With regard to Simon Weston - he sustained horrific burn injuries, when the ship he was on was attacked by Argentina. The fact that he managed to pull through the years of agonies and mental stress and become such an example of courage and perseverance to everybody he has met during his fund-raising and other activities, surely classes him as a war hero?

Now I suppose you are going to say something like 'How many shots did he fire?' or 'How many men did he rescue?' or 'How many Argentinians did he shoot, thus stopping them shooting his fellow soldiers?' , well you can say what you like Mr. Spot, it's obvious that you are going to stir something up, but please bear in mind the Forum Garden TOS.

[spot]

I'm interested in the use of words, Gill. The OED, for example, puts it very simply: "war hero, a man who has acted heroically in a war".

Your "All men/women who attended the Falklands war, whether they were hurt, killed or unscathed, were IMO heroes" surely just dilutes "war hero" to "serving in theatre". Lots of people serve in theatre.

What on earth is the point of the description "war hero" if you use it so indiscriminately as to just mean he was on a battlefield?

What he's done since his return to the UK might, perhaps, qualify him as a hero - that's arguable at least - but that's not "war hero". Sustaining injuries in a war isn't "war hero". Not unless you want the words to become a mindless meaningless Jingo chant.

I think you - and the Bloody Sun - need to separate the two bits. Yes, he went to war. Just possibly his fortitude in recovery might qualify him subsequently as a hero. But that's not what "war hero" means, it never was and it never will be. The two soldiers mentioned on VCs of the Falklands War undoubtedly qualify as war heroes - surely you can recognize a qualitative difference in what the words are properly used for?

[G#Gill]

I agree with you,















as well.

[pantoandy]

spot;1293839 wrote: I'm interested in the use of words, Gill. The OED, for example, puts it very simply: "war hero, a man who has acted heroically in a war".

Your "All men/women who attended the Falklands war, whether they were hurt, killed or unscathed, were IMO heroes" surely just dilutes "war hero" to "serving in theatre". Lots of people serve in theatre.

What on earth is the point of the description "war hero" if you use it so indiscriminately as to just mean he was on a battlefield?

What he's done since his return to the UK might, perhaps, qualify him as a hero - that's arguable at least - but that's not "war hero". Sustaining injuries in a war isn't "war hero". Not unless you want the words to become a mindless meaningless Jingo chant.

I think you - and the Bloody Sun - need to separate the two bits. Yes, he went to war. Just possibly his fortitude in recovery might qualify him subsequently as a hero. But that's not what "war hero" means, it never was and it never will be. The two soldiers mentioned on VCs of the Falklands War undoubtedly qualify as war heroes - surely you can recognize a qualitative difference in what the words are properly used for?


hi spot you old goat how are you ?????/

cannot post everything spot or i may attract a infraction

the post was intended to highlight the vile moron who waved a argentina shirt

at a rangers / celtic match to taunt this war hero.

[spot]

pantoandy;1293851 wrote: the post was intended to highlight the vile moron who waved a argentina shirt at a rangers / celtic match to taunt this war hero.Out of a crowd of - what shall we guess at, forty thousand? - the Sun's photographer just happened to notice one chap waving an Argentine football shirt and happened to be ideally placed to take that glossy tripod-mounted crystal-clear photograph to generate the story? And you seriously think the chap wasn't handed the shirt before the match and paid say £500 to lift it up at a nod from the photographer? It's the most set-up photo at a football match I've seen in a month of Sundays, Andy, and if you haven't worked that out there's something wrong with you. It's deliberate manipulation, it's not news. I'm sure it qualifies as taunting, yes, but you really ought to try working out who's being taunted.

Where's the difficulty in giving your opinion in what sense Simon Weston is a war hero? It's a very simple question. The answer might be more difficult to find.

[pantoandy]

quite possibly spot

all i did was post the story i,ve no time for football anyway

i personally view it as 22 overpaid poofs kicking a bag of wind around a field.

[gmc]

Religious bigotry is never pleasant to see no matter at whom it is directed. Bigots are never the brightest of people. given the number of scots also killed and injured in the falklands and ion iraq and afghanistan the flag waver has probably had it explained to him by now.

The singing of the sash as an expression of national identity and celebration of the fight for liberty. Or it's sectarianism and part of our history we should quietly forget. Where do you stand on that one Pantoandy?

[pantoandy]

gmc;1293868 wrote: Religious bigotry is never pleasant to see no matter at whom it is directed. Bigots are never the brightest of people. given the number of scots also killed and injured in the falklands and ion iraq and afghanistan the flag waver has probably had it explained to him by now.

The singing of the sash as an expression of national identity and celebration of the fight for liberty. Or it's sectarianism and part of our history we should quietly forget. Where do you stand on that one Pantoandy?


i was hoping you would jump on this one my kilted friend

i have to qualms with the singing of the sash my post was aimed at the mindless thug who waved an argentina shirt at a war hero as positvly diabolical.

also it doesn do the reputation of scottish people and scottish football much good does it ?

[spot]

Andy, you seem to have very ingrained attitudes, it's a pity you can't share your reasons for holding them. As it is I might just as well not ask any questions at all.

[pantoandy]

spot;1293873 wrote: Andy, you seem to have very ingrained attitudes, it's a pity you can't share your reasons for holding them. As it is I might just as well not ask any questions at all.


where is this leading spot ? please expand on your post

[spot]

pantoandy;1293877 wrote: where is this leading spot ? please expand on your post


Just my first query in the thread, that's all. The matter of whether the Bloody Sun created that photo-opportunity from the start with a financial inducement is one that neither of us can be definite about, but I see no reason at all why we can't explore the other issue without getting our tempers frayed.

In what sense is Simon Weston a war hero?

[gmc]

pantoandy;1293870 wrote: i was hoping you would jump on this one my kilted friend

i have to qualms with the singing of the sash my post was aimed at the mindless thug who waved an argentina shirt at a war hero as positvly diabolical.

also it doesn do the reputation of scottish people and scottish football much good does it ?


Never said it does did I? I agree with spot it was possibly staged. The one holding the shirt looks as though he wasn't even born at the time. it probably pissed of most of the people standing around him.

Rangers fans sing the sash to annoy he celtic fans. Maybe if you saw sectarianism in action you might feel differently. But on one level they are also keeping alive a very important part of our history-and I do mean the UK's not just scotland.

UKIP and BNP are very good at using the 1689 bill of rights to argue that parliament had no right to join the EU-despite there being a referendum on the matter-and also the more right wing insist that it also gives us a right to bear arms while ignoring the proviso that only protestants could do so in order to shoot catholics when necessary. Usually the most vocal have never bothered reading it.

I was curious to see if you got the significance of the sash.

[G#Gill]

Hey gmc, don't forget that the government had already joined us to the 'Common Market' with no referendum. They only held a referendum to see how many wanted us to come OUT of Europe! So many people thought that it was purely for trade purposes, so they didn't vote to come back out. This shows the underhanded way in which successive governments work.

[gmc]

G#Gill;1293904 wrote: Hey gmc, don't forget that the government had already joined us to the 'Common Market' with no referendum. They only held a referendum to see how many wanted us to come OUT of Europe! So many people thought that it was purely for trade purposes, so they didn't vote to come back out. This shows the underhanded way in which successive governments work.


I was a around at the time and all the issues were discussed in great detail ad nauseam . If you don't believe me have a dig through the newspaper archives. It's a myth that people didn't realise it was also about closer political union with europe or they had the wool pulled over their eyes. In many ways those around in 1975 were a lot more politicised than than they are now. a fair chunk of the population had gone through world war two and the hippy generation were now parents and the punks and rockers were as well. There were mass demonstrations and strikes all over the place. Those who had jobs in industry were watching their traditional markets fade away and realised the need to find new ones. We needed to be in europe-our economy was in the doldrums we were effectively bankrupt having not long before gone to the IMF for a loan the three day week wasn't long before and sitting around a candle waiting for the power to come back on will make anybody interested in politics. None of the later inward industrial investment for which Margaret thatcher liked to take credit would have happened as our not being in the eu would have stopped anyone who was looking to trade in an expanding EU investing.

Those who voted yes knew exactly what was at stake. The no campaign were shocked speechless by the result and ever since this myth had grown up that people were fooled. The reality is very different. It was the No campaign that pushed for the referendum as they were convinced everybody would agree with them they've just been whingeing ever since.

[G#Gill]

I thought the 3 day week and the 'sitting round a candle' were the results of the miners' strike, which caused regulated power cuts for some time. I remember this very well, as I was playing in a band at the time and I had to use my acoustic guitar and our organist had to use the 'in house' piano, on several gigs. Felt very odd ! But we still honoured our gig and got paid I can also remember the threat of rationing petrol, and I had applied for special 'extra' petrol coupons because I did a lot of travelling at the time, to work at my gigs. I was allowed the extra coupons, but the problem never arose, in the end.

[pantoandy]

my tempers arent frayed i endevour never to lose my temper with a posted reply to the column regardless of whether i agree with them or not.

have you seen the disfigurement on simons face ?

this is a war injury and therefore makes him a war vet and hero

and what makes you believe spot that this is a put up job ? i cannot believe that even the scottish sun could do something so vile

the sun journalist can use a close up on his camera to appear to make the subject seem nearer.

[gmc]

G#Gill;1293953 wrote: I thought the 3 day week and the 'sitting round a candle' were the results of the miners' strike, which caused regulated power cuts for some time. I remember this very well, as I was playing in a band at the time and I had to use my acoustic guitar and our organist had to use the 'in house' piano, on several gigs. Felt very odd ! But we still honoured our gig and got paid I can also remember the threat of rationing petrol, and I had applied for special 'extra' petrol coupons because I did a lot of travelling at the time, to work at my gigs. I was allowed the extra coupons, but the problem never arose, in the end.


It was, if you remember they brought down the heath government which is why when maggie took them on she laid in stocks of coal to keep the power stations running. Scargill was an idiot but he was right about some things-we now import coal and are looking to buy the technology for cleaner coal burning power stations in instead of being world leaders in it.

I remember the seventies all too well-I was long term unemployed and hated those bastards that went on about how there were jobs if you just looked and anyone was just a layabout. I still hate those kind of bastards.

posted by pantoandy

and what makes you believe spot that this is a put up job ? i cannot believe that even the scottish sun could do something so vile

the sun journalist can use a close up on his camera to appear to make the subject seem nearer.


I can't speak for spot but it is a vile rag that is quite capable of doing something like that. We, however, have our arseholes as well. mind you they tend not to join the BNP but it's the same kind of racist, bigoted mentality:sneaky:

[G#Gill]

In 1981, there were race riots in various cities in the UK. One was Nottingham, where I live. Apparently, the rioting and criminal damage had stopped, so some of the press who had missed getting actual pictures of the event, asked some of the youths to re-enact what happened. They obliged, but after a short time, up started a real riot which rapidly got out of hand and took loads of police to stop it.

The riot had been over, and it was the press who caused it to start up all over again.

So I, personally, would not be surprised at anything the press and media would do for a 'good story'. Cynical ? .......................................... Oh yes!

[Oscar Namechange]

G#Gill;1293837 wrote: With regard to Simon Weston - he sustained horrific burn injuries, when the ship he was on was attacked by Argentina. The fact that he managed to pull through the years of agonies and mental stress and become such an example of courage and perseverance to everybody he has met during his fund-raising and other activities, surely classes him as a war hero?

Now I suppose you are going to say something like 'How many shots did he fire?' or 'How many men did he rescue?' or 'How many Argentinians did he shoot, thus stopping them shooting his fellow soldiers?' , well you can say what you like Mr. Spot, it's obvious that you are going to stir something up, but please bear in mind the Forum Garden TOS. I met him at our Local British Legion. he's an amazing man... Full of courage. Yep... a Hero In my book.

[spot]

pantoandy;1293954 wrote: this is a war injury and therefore makes him a war vet and heroIndeed it might - he's a war veteran and quite possibly his subsequent behaviour has earned him the right to be regarded as a hero - but it doesn't make him a war hero. Or are you suggesting that it does? I'll repeat the OED definition: "war hero, a man who has acted heroically in a war".

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1293972 wrote: Indeed it might - he's a war veteran and quite possibly his subsequent behaviour has earned him the right to be regarded as a hero - but it doesn't make him a war hero. Or are you suggesting that it does? I'll repeat the OED definition: "war hero, a man who has acted heroically in a war".


So by comparison Spot.. are you suggesting that conscripts In both World Wars who did not achieve anything worthy of a medal, were nothing but Injured Soldiers?

[spot]

oscar;1293977 wrote: So by comparison Spot.. are you suggesting that conscripts In both World Wars who did not achieve anything worthy of a medal, were nothing but Injured Soldiers?


Surely they'd be best described as war veterans?

By all means call them heroes too if that floats your boat.

What is illegitimate, surely, is to call them war heroes unless they acted heroically in their war. If you do call all war veterans war heroes, what do you have in reserve to distinguish those who displayed exceptional valour in the face of the enemy above and beyond the call of duty? You've destroyed a recognized term and got nothing in return. It's vandalism.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1293982 wrote: Surely they'd be best described as war veterans?

By all means call them heroes too if that floats your boat.

What is illegitimate, surely, is to call them war heroes unless they acted heroically in their war. If you do call all war veterans war heroes, what do you have in reserve to distinguish those who displayed exceptional valour in the face of the enemy above and beyond the call of duty? You've destroyed a recognized term and got nothing in return. It's vandalism.
Then Pray tell Old Boy... What distinguishes a 'War hero' and a 'War veteran' In your world?

What Is the definition of 'Exceptional Valour' In Spot's world?

[spot]

oscar;1293990 wrote: Then Pray tell Old Boy... What distinguishes a 'War hero' and a 'War veteran' In your world?Honours & Gallantry Awards I'd have thought describes it. Gallantry and bravery awards, or actions which would have resulted in a medal for gallantry or bravery if it had been reported. The British Armed Forces recognises four levels of gallantry and bravery, the MOD website describes them.

oscar wrote: What Is the definition of 'Exceptional Valour' In Spot's world?One up from Conspicuous Gallantry maybe, which would make it "For Valour" in the words of the Victoria Cross citations. British Army publications use the expression "exceptional valour" in that context - Army Home Page gives an example. I think members of the Armed Forces themselves would be even more anxious to retain a distinction between "war hero" and "war veteran" than I am. I can't see why you're trying to destroy the concept.

[Oscar Namechange]

spot;1294003 wrote: Honours & Gallantry Awards I'd have thought describes it. Gallantry and bravery awards, or actions which would have resulted in a medal for gallantry or bravery if it had been reported. The British Armed Forces recognises four levels of gallantry and bravery, the MOD website describes them.

One up from Conspicuous Gallantry maybe, which would make it "For Valour" in the words of the Victoria Cross citations. British Army publications use the expression "exceptional valour" in that context - Army Home Page gives an example. I think members of the Armed Forces themselves would be even more anxious to retain a distinction between "war hero" and "war veteran" than I am. I can't see why you're trying to destroy the concept. I'm not entirely dis-agreeing with you , however, for example:

With a Spitfire Pilot engaged with The Luftwaffe. Do you think only the Pilots shot down or shooting down enemy aircraft should be awarded medals or why not not the entire Squadron?

[spot]

oscar;1294008 wrote: With a Spitfire Pilot engaged with The Luftwaffe. Do you think only the Pilots shot down or shooting down enemy aircraft should be awarded medals or why not not the entire Squadron?


They were all awarded with medals. Some of those medals were for gallantry, some were campaign medals. How the services decide to honour their war heroes is a matter for them, I'm in no position to pass judgement. If you're looking for bravery, though, you'd do better to cite Bomber Command than Spitfire pilots. Flying for RAF Bomber Command during World War Two was to all intents and purposes a death sentence.