Positive outcome from brexit

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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1522678 wrote: And she has, and President Tusk has said no. He won't accept the application from the Prime Minister. He's sent it back marked "only if it's requested by the House of Commons with agreement to the European terms".

And we have... 9 days left in which to either revoke Brexit, or to accept Europe's existing terms and also get the request for an extension passed by a majority in the House, or to leave with no deal.

The Prime Minister has immediately called all the other Party Leaders to Downing Street. I expect she needed a change of clothes too. My sympathy for her is non-existent. Nobody in this country is going to sign a revocation, and neither the Labour Party nor the Rees-Mogg camp is going to accept the existing terms of the deal, which makes the deal impossible to pass. That only leaves the hard Brexit 29th March crash in play.


Whilst a hard Brexit is by no means ideal it is infinitely preferable to the impossible deal that May has put on the table and appears to be obsessively committed to.

On the other hand, I am convinced that the EU would immediately grant an extension if the reason was to allow a second referendum.
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Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr;1522679 wrote: Whilst a hard Brexit is by no means ideal it is infinitely preferable to the impossible deal that May has put on the table and appears to be obsessively committed to.

On the other hand, I am convinced that the EU would immediately grant an extension if the reason was to allow a second referendum.


I agree. But I think what we will have on April 1st is no deal, no extension, no second referendum and a scapegoat Prime Minister who will be spoken of by future generations with the same opprobrium as Neville Chamberlain and Castlereagh.

Her national address just now was a complete denial of reality, not even an acknowledgement of President Tusk's ultimatum.

I wonder who the next Leader of the Conservative Party will be.
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

spot;1522680 wrote: I agree. But I think what we will have on April 1st is no deal, no extension, no second referendum and a scapegoat Prime Minister who will be spoken of by future generations with the same opprobrium as Neville Chamberlain and Castlereagh.

Her national address just now was a complete denial of reality, not even an acknowledgement of President Tusk's ultimatum.

I wonder who the next Leader of the Conservative Party will be.


Talking of separation from reality, did you note that Trump Jr is complaining that the UK is not acting according to his father's instructions over Brexit :wah:
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Post by spot »

Bryn Mawr;1522681 wrote: Talking of separation from reality, did you note that Trump Jr is complaining that the UK is not acting according to his father's instructions over Brexit :wah:


I hadn't seen that, no. Has he not been jailed yet? Why are they waiting?

The swivel-eyed Martian - John Redwood - must be holding his breath wondering which way the Brexit tree is going to fall. It's anyone's guess.

The Guardian leader, tomorrow:



Her political capital is all spent. She has no allies at home or abroad. Her only leverage in parliament comes from the fear that her appalling management of the country provokes – the prospect that she is incompetent enough to allow the worst to happen. She long ago lost sight of diplomacy and strategy. Then she shed authority. Now she has abandoned responsibility, completing the journey from bad prime minister to rogue prime minister.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... gone-rogue



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Post by FourPart »

Personally the only Referendum I would support is "May's Deal or No Deal". The decision to Leave has already been made & is a moot point. When it was announced that May was about to make an announcement, like many others I was wondering whether it was going to be her resignation or the calling of a Snap Election. As it happened, it was just a repeat of the twaddle she'd come up with earlier in the days at PMQs.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1522685 wrote: Personally the only Referendum I would support is "May's Deal or No Deal". The decision to Leave has already been made & is a moot point. When it was announced that May was about to make an announcement, like many others I was wondering whether it was going to be her resignation or the calling of a Snap Election. As it happened, it was just a repeat of the twaddle she'd come up with earlier in the days at PMQs.


So you believe that it is acceptable for politicians to deliberately lie and break electoral law in order to win a vote and that once a vote is won in that way it is irrevocable?
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Post by FourPart »

Bryn Mawr;1522691 wrote: So you believe that it is acceptable for politicians to deliberately lie and break electoral law in order to win a vote and that once a vote is won in that way it is irrevocable?


The breaches of Electoral Law regarding financing was very questionable. The Remain campaign spent nearly twice as much as its permitted budget in their Propaganda Booklet alone. The difference being that they funded it from the Treasury, by the Tax Payer. They also split their campaigning into different groups, working as a co-operative, so as to increase their collective budget. Using Legal Loopholes does not make them innocent. I consider a Tax Evader to be more honest than a Tax Avoider because at least they are not openly using deceit in order to justify their actions.

The only example of Leave 'Lies' that anyone ever seems to come up with is the dreaded 'bus' which, to all intents & purposes was correct & has just deliberately be misconstrued by the Remainers. Do we send £350m/week to the EU? Yes we do. However, we get about 15% of that back as a rebate, which the EU then tells us how to spend it. In other words we send them about £275m/week AND they get to tell us that we have to spend an additional £75m on whatever they say. As for saying they WOULD spend that on the NHS, that's not so either. The wording was "Let's fund our NHS instead". It simply means that the funding could be spent on much better things SUCH AS the NHS. The Remain campaign focussed on Project Fear (and continues to do so), using speculation of a totally unprecedented situation as 'fact' & prophesying doom & destruction immediately following a Leave result. It never happened.

Personally I made my decision about which way I was going to vote long before the Referendum was even announced. I suspect the same can be said for the vast majority of everyone else who voted for either side. Anyone who admits to being swayed by the campaigning in such a bad campaign on both sides is admitting to be extremely gullible.

Throughout the campaign the vast majority of the House, on both sides were campaigning for Remain. Both sides were clearly out of touch with the electorate. Now that the results are in the balance of MPs remains the same with at least 75% of MPs being pro-Remain, which is a disgrace, as they are no representing the views of the electorate. If they were the split should theoretically be about 50:50.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1522692 wrote: The breaches of Electoral Law regarding financing was very questionable. The Remain campaign spent nearly twice as much as its permitted budget in their Propaganda Booklet alone. The difference being that they funded it from the Treasury, by the Tax Payer. They also split their campaigning into different groups, working as a co-operative, so as to increase their collective budget. Using Legal Loopholes does not make them innocent. I consider a Tax Evader to be more honest than a Tax Avoider because at least they are not openly using deceit in order to justify their actions.

The only example of Leave 'Lies' that anyone ever seems to come up with is the dreaded 'bus' which, to all intents & purposes was correct & has just deliberately be misconstrued by the Remainers. Do we send £350m/week to the EU? Yes we do. However, we get about 15% of that back as a rebate, which the EU then tells us how to spend it. In other words we send them about £275m/week AND they get to tell us that we have to spend an additional £75m on whatever they say. As for saying they WOULD spend that on the NHS, that's not so either. The wording was "Let's fund our NHS instead". It simply means that the funding could be spent on much better things SUCH AS the NHS. The Remain campaign focussed on Project Fear (and continues to do so), using speculation of a totally unprecedented situation as 'fact' & prophesying doom & destruction immediately following a Leave result. It never happened.

Personally I made my decision about which way I was going to vote long before the Referendum was even announced. I suspect the same can be said for the vast majority of everyone else who voted for either side. Anyone who admits to being swayed by the campaigning in such a bad campaign on both sides is admitting to be extremely gullible.

Throughout the campaign the vast majority of the House, on both sides were campaigning for Remain. Both sides were clearly out of touch with the electorate. Now that the results are in the balance of MPs remains the same with at least 75% of MPs being pro-Remain, which is a disgrace, as they are no representing the views of the electorate. If they were the split should theoretically be about 50:50.


The breaches of electoral law on the part of the Leave campaign were serious enough that they were taken to court and fined heavily, the same cannot be said of the Remain campaign so unless you are saying that the UK legal system is corrupt I stand by my assertion.

The day after the referendum both Boris and Nigel admited that some of the claims they had made were unachievable, if that is not lying then what is.

As to the net spending on the EU, you are totally ignoring the Regional Development Fund that pays large amount from the EU into the UK. Also, lying by misdirection is still lying and although the words on the bus could be construed as you say the speeches by the Leave politicians and, especially, the garbage editorials in the media could not.

Project Fear :wah: The reality over the past three years has far exceeded the confusion prophicied by the Remain campaign - giving it a snazzy name does not mean that what was being said could not be realistic predictions.
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Post by gmc »

FourPart;1522685 wrote: Personally the only Referendum I would support is "May's Deal or No Deal". The decision to Leave has already been made & is a moot point. When it was announced that May was about to make an announcement, like many others I was wondering whether it was going to be her resignation or the calling of a Snap Election. As it happened, it was just a repeat of the twaddle she'd come up with earlier in the days at PMQs.


If the matter is moot point then it is still up for discussion.

"moot

/muːt/

adjective

adjective: moot

1.

subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty.

"whether the temperature rise was mainly due to the greenhouse effect was a moot point"

synonyms: debatable, open to debate, open to discussion, arguable, questionable, at issue, open to question, open, doubtful, open to doubt, disputable, contestable, controvertible, problematic, problematical, controversial, contentious, vexed, disputed, unresolved, unsettled, up in the air, undecided, yet to be decided, undetermined, unconcluded"

In a democracy people have the right to change their minds if new information leads to the realisation that a mistake is being made. To claim otherwise is an example of the kind of parthetic sophistry the brexit campseem to specialise in.

Something else you won't see on the bbc.

First Minister's Questions - 21 March 2019



Ignore the last half it's dead boring.

There is little doubt that there will be a second scottish independence referendum. The mainstream media wouldbe well advised to start paying attention.
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Post by LarsMac »

Hey, I have it on Good Authortiy that Uri Gellar has it covered
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

LarsMac;1522700 wrote: Hey, I have it on Good Authortiy that Uri Gellar has it covered


He May have or he might be bending the truth but if he wants to use psychic influence he’ll have to spoon feed us :-)
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Post by G#Gill »

A LETTER SENT TO THE SPEAKER ....................A VERY INTERESTING READ !

Dear Mr Bercow,

My name is Ruth Newton, i am 57 years of age and i live in Preston Lancashire.Â*

However, it has become more and more apparent in recent days that in your eyes and the eyes of the so called House of Westminster that i am a nobody.Â*

I am not a Politician, i am not a Celebrity, i am not a Barrister nor a Banker, i do not run a Business, i am a Mother and a housewife, i left school at Easter 1978, my reason being was that i was offered a job as a switchboard operator, something i always wanted to do and loved doing, but not because i was too thick and stupid to do anything else.Â*

The company in question couldn't wait until summer to fill the position so between myself and my parents advice i made a decision to leave school slightly earlier as i had no wish to go to college or university we felt that this was an offer i couldn't refuse.

Â*But let me make one thing very clear, far too many people like you make a judgement on someones intelligence on the mere basis of whether or not they attended University, that seems to be the general trend today and the million dollar question in order to get anywhere, and seems to be the influence when making an assumption about someones ability and capability to understand basic facts.Â*

THAT is precisely what you, every Politician within Westminster and the Media have just done to 17.5 million people in this country.Â*

You have ALL made an assumption that 17.5 million members of the British Public have absolutely no idea what their talking about, or that maybe their general level of intelligence isn't up to scratch.Â*

Well please allow me to enlighten YOU on some of the facts that the likes of you are obviously not intelligent enough to understand, either through lack of basic education which i doubt is the case, OR ignorance and arrogance, the latter being the most likely.

Firstly, it seems to me personally that the Politicians have forgotten exactly who their employers are, Theresa May does not pay their wages or yours, the Queen does not pay their wages or yours, WE your employers pay your wages, the Plumbers, the Electricians, the Builders, the Cleaners, the Police, the Nurses, the Street Cleaners, the Fire Service, the Shop Assistants, the Engineers, the Bakers, the Mechanics, The Carers, the Teachers, the Doctors, the Taxi Drivers, the Lollipop Ladies, the Dinner |Ladies etc etc etc etc need i go on? all of whom are under paid and unappreciated by Westminster, yet they are your employers, they are everything this country once stood for, the backbone, the very essence of what makes this country tick and what once made this country GREAT. Those are the people you have to answer to, those are the people you have to report to, and those are the people who can sack you in a New York minute via VOTES.Â*

These are the basic facts that you and the Politicians of ALL parties have either forgotten, or chosen to ignore.

If when i worked, and regardless of where i worked i continuously turned up late, or i was continuously having days off without good reason, or that i ignored my boss and did the job as i wanted to do it rather than the way he/she expected me to do it i would eventually be sacked and replaced without question. Whether or not i thought MY way was better would be completely irrelevant, as i was there to do the job i was employed and paid to do, that's hardly rocket science, it's the way things work

So i suggest that YOU go back to Westminster, gather your heard of leaches and explain how it works.Â*

You tell THEM that at their Employers request they either do the job they are paid to do, and may i just add very well paid to do, resign, or be sacked.Â*

They must pack a bag, pick out their most comfortable walking shoes, get on a bus or a train paid for out of their own pockets and go back to their individual constituencies and knock on the doors of their Employers instead of sitting in their comfortable safe haven called Westminster, laughing, smirking, using their mobile phones or falling asleep whilst debating such serious matters.

Come and speak to the people who gave you the privileges NONE of you deserve, face the music,Â* face the backlash of your arrogant actions, look into the faces of the people who can take away those privileges just as quick as they gave them to you and without another single thought. That is what YOU Mr Bercow must tell the cheats, the liars, the corrupt arrogant politicians and as a matter of urgency.

Should they choose not to take the advice of their Employers then the consequences i can assure you will be costly and will be felt for generations to come....that is the burden you and they must live with, holding you and the politicians solely responsible..its the price you pay for arrogance, betrayal and deceit.

Finally, should you decide to Revoke Article 50 or continue down the road of planning a second referendum, going against the very foundations on which democracy was built and stands for, then the one thing i very personally and sadly feel is that you should then do the right and justified act of abolishing ALL commemorative events in connection with the British Legion and the people who gave their lives in both two world wars and including recent conflicts in the name of that democracy, as to continue with such a farce, a lie and utter disloyalty would be like trampling on them whilst they lay dying in the trenches, it would be like drilling holes in the boats and crafts that took 1000's of brave young men to Normandy, in the full knowledge that they were going to die, but drowning them before they got there. It would be like spitting in their faces and s******ing at their family members left behind. A pointless act, and an act of betrayal, and all for what? The Politicians would then have no right to be seen laying wreaths at Cenotaphs across the country, or wearing poppies with pride, none of us would, we would have lost and given up that right because WE allowed the death of democracy to happen.

WE would ALL be responsible for having let them down and failed them...that, being the FINAL INSULT.

We the people of this country are not thick, uneducated, ignorant nor arrogant, and we are certainly not nobodies...we are driven purely by fairness, loyalty and above all passion, a passion forÂ* democracy, and once that passion is betrayed and democracy is lost, it will never be returned. That is not what i want for my Grandchild, and the thought of it breaks my heart.

Democracy is priceless Mr Berwcow, and that is what YOU must enforce through the will of the people and their voice. It's your job.

.

Yours sincerely

Ruth Newton.'
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;1522743 wrote: Dear Mr Bercow,

My name is Ruth Newton, i am 57 years of age and i live in Preston Lancashire.




I'll fish around but yes, it looks like she does exist...

The audio was one of 13 separate clips made in a tormented Preston homeowner's bedroom - more than 100m away from the small holding where the dog had been left.

It was used in evidence against the animal's owners, Mick and Ruth Newton, of The Boulevard, Frenchwood, Preston, who admitted three breaches of a noise abatement notice.

The order had been served in connection with the dog barking excessively at their smallholding at the Evergreen Nurseries compound on Esplanade, Preston, after the noisy animal triggered a series of complaints to Preston Council from fed up residents.

But the noise continued, and in February the excessive barking was recorded on three separate days.

Mr Newton, 57, told Preston Magistrates' Court the smallholding had been a therapeutic place for him after he broke his back in seven places in an accident seven years ago and suffered a massive heart attack.

He and his 55-year-old wife were told to pay a £120 fine, £30 surcharge and £100 costs.

https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/presto ... -1-8795442




Why she should pick on John Bercow of all people I have no idea.
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Post by G#Gill »

Why are you trying to discredit this woman? Do you not agree with what she says? I suppose she thought that, as Mr. Bercow is the Leader of the House, then possibly he may have a reasonable amount of clout/say to all parties ? I could be wrong though.

Oh and by the way, as you have located a piece of news concerning this woman, I totally agree with the Councils decision. That poor dog is obviously distressed, so should be helped and she should be punished for ill-treating it. But that has nothing to do with the letter that she wrote. As far as I can tell from reading the contents, she is more or less saying what most other people are thinking !
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;1522746 wrote: Why are you trying to discredit this woman? Do you not agree with what she says? I suppose she thought that, as Mr. Bercow is the Leader of the House, then possibly he may have a reasonable amount of clout/say to all parties ? I could be wrong though.


Discredit in what way? So many of these viral letters are changed copies of nonsense that has been floating around the Internet for years with bogus false names, I merely confirmed that this particular viral letter has a valid name attached.

If anyone actually watched the proceedings in Parliament they'd be immediately aware that the Speaker takes no part whatever in political decisions. He's not a member of any party and it's nine years since he became Speaker and last had any hand in political clout or policy-making.

Were she to pay the slightest attention to events in Parliament instead of the bile purveyed by the tabloid press, she'd also recognize that "You have ALL made an assumption that 17.5 million members of the British Public have absolutely no idea what their talking about" is uninformed nonsense bordering on certifiable delusion.

Mr Bercow is not now, and never has been, Leader of the House. He's Speaker. The Leader of the House is Mother Leadsom, the Christian politician.
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Post by G#Gill »

Speaker, Leader. I know nothing about parliamentary goings on. I have never been interested enough to study how and why etc. I am not a lawyer, as a lot of the MPs seem to be, I am just an ordinary member of the public trying to make ends meet with the pittance of a pension that we are doled out each week and expected to bow and scrape our thanks for, even though we have earned it over the decades ! Quite a few of us mortals are not as highly educated as others, so we have difficulty in understanding the complicated inner workings of politics. We just listen to what is said, try to make an informed decision about a subject that is important to us, and hopefully proceed along the best path for us. Quite often, however, those damned politicians mess us about. lie through their teeth and generally make a pig's ear of the whole proceedings.

I will just have to wait and see where the sh*t falls. I am convinced that these damned politicians couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery !
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Post by spot »

G#Gill;1522748 wrote: I am just an ordinary member of the public trying to make ends meet with the pittance of a pension that we are doled out each week and expected to bow and scrape our thanks for, even though we have earned it over the decades !


You will excuse my asking but I'm fascinated to know - who do you think expects you to bow and scrape in thanks for your pittance of a pension?

Your earned pension is an entitlement, not a dole. It has not been a dole since the 1930s, it has been a right and I can think of nobody, politician or other, who would expect bowing or scraping on its receipt.

I suspect that in this instance, as in others, you are setting up an Aunt Sally for patrons to throw missiles at.

Today's parliamentary session seems to have left two possible outcomes to be decided during the next two weeks, either to ask the European Union to allow the UK to trade under "Common Market" terms with no representation in any of the European institutions, or to leave on Friday 12th April with no deal in place. There's not a cat in hell's chance that either the House of Commons or the European Union will agree to holding British elections to the European Parliament in May after today's third vote to reject the proposed deal. To quote Donald Tusk, "A 'no-deal' scenario on 12 April is now a likely scenario. The EU has been preparing for this since December 2017 and is now fully prepared for a 'no-deal' scenario at midnight on 12 April. The EU will remain united".

By all means blame Mother Leadsom. As Leader of the House she has a great deal of clout/say in government and as such she is very culpable for the present mess. Unlike John Bercow.
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Post by gmc »

So she supports a bunch of public schoolboys and a political party that wants to remove all employment rights and health and safety regulations and has not been backward in trying to undeermine the role of parliament so that they can replace it with a kind of elected dictatorship rather than the admottedly flawed representative democracy we currently have. I might add that they want to privatise the nhs - Jeremy Hunt even wrote a little book on how it should be done. No doubt she also supports the frackiumng for oil in lancashaire that will be going ahead regardless of the consequences for the people in the are where she lives.

She supports a policy that will destroy our economy and deprive her grandchildren ( I presume she may have some) of the rights to travel and work abroad that her generation enjoyed. She has bought wholesale in to the myths put aboput by the brexcit campaign - to see nigel farage claim that the remainers are a liberal elite when he himself, along with the likes of jacob rees mogg represent the interests of an public school educated elite that has systematically ruined cpmprehensive edication in england and wales and stopped people from poorer backgrounds going on to further education shopuld thay so wish is a hypocrisy thaty beggars belief. She may not have wanted to do so but she could have now her grandchildren will not have that choice.

Nigel farage organises a march for brexit, charges people for the privilege and then shopws his utter contempt by not taking part himself and yet still people like her support ukip.

The pension and healthcare she has is no thanks to the tories theynhave always opposed such things on principle. Maybe her children is haveing a proiblem finding a home - social housing is another thing the tories are ideologocally against that's why we do not have enough.

We live in a democracy people have th right to challenge and change theior minds about how they have voted. I'm sorry but brexiteers are either self interested millionaires, racist and anti-semitic and yes perhaps just too embarrassed to admit they made a mistake. The brexit mocement in another era would have been called fascist and quite frankly I am fed uop with a bunch of neo nazis and hakf wits insisting that we shoupd just accept the referendum result and watch our country go down the toilet.

NAH NAH NAH you lost is really not much of an argument. Yat again I would ask can anyone tell me any benefit that wil come from leaving the eu. Apart from scottish independence that is.
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Post by spot »

As we go into the final Brexit week...

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Post by Betty Boop »

spot;1522797 wrote: As we go into the final Brexit week...




Strong and stable, much like the Parliament leaky building, the cracks are showing!

Most are fed up but it becomes more and more entertaining everyday watching this disaster unfold. You couldn't write it as well as this for a comedy series.
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Post by gmc »

If it was a comedy series no one would watch it as the plot line is too ridiculoue.

I think irish unification is now a seriously on the cards no matter what the outcome with brexit and another referndum on scotland as well.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17552 ... e-schemes/

"The MoD has been castigated for its failure to dispose of its obsolete nuclear submarines. None of the 20 boats decommissioned since 1980 at present stored at Rosyth and Devonport have been disposed of. They lie tied-up slowly rotting away.

The MoD has admitted that it has no developed plan for the disposal of the presently operating Vanguard (Trident) submarines, nor their Astute class hunter-killer support boats. A spokesman said: “The disposal of nuclear submarines is a complex and challenging undertaking”. It certainly is. "

Come independence yo can have them all.
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Post by LarsMac »

Self-destructive behavior seems the "new-norm" for nations, these days.
“All it takes to get elected in twenty-first-century America is a mob of frightened sheep and a wolf with a nice smile,”
― Greg Bear, Darwin's Children
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Post by gmc »

LarsMac;1522811 wrote: Self-destructive behavior seems the "new-norm" for nations, these days.


It's fascism. It never really went away and a lot of the rhetoric certainly in the UK, is eerily like that used by the nazis/fascists. We have tory MP's prattling on about cultural marxism either through ignorance of it's connotations or because they have fallen for it. Jerymy corbyn is being talked up as a marxist threat to the UK never mind the political debate let's just bandy labels about.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... is-796197/

Americans seem to forget the nazis had a lot of support in the US as did the KKK it doesn't take much for it all to start up again.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1522816 wrote: It's fascism. It never really went away and a lot of the rhetoric certainly in the UK, is eerily like that used by the nazis/fascists. We have tory MP's prattling on about cultural marxism either through ignorance of it's connotations or because they have fallen for it. Jerymy corbyn is being talked up as a marxist threat to the UK never mind the political debate let's just bandy labels about.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... is-796197/

Americans seem to forget the nazis had a lot of support in the US as did the KKK it doesn't take much for it all to start up again.


I wish I could come up with a good argument against that, but, sadly, it is all too evident.
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Post by spot »

The EU has apparently this evening set the Brexit deadline for Halloween. This is not, for once, an attempt at gallows humour on my part, it's from a Reuters report.
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Positive outcome from brexit

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Post by FourPart »

As far as I'm concerned the Scots can have their Independence. They will then lose all the funding from the UK, as well as having to develop their own currency. They will need to go through all the application procedure to join the EU (if it still exists by then) & to commit themselves to the Euro. There would also be the question of a Hard Border with England & perhaps the UK Industries pulling out of Scotland. No more representation in Westminster. Plus the majority for Leave amongst the rest of the UK would dramatically increase.

The only down side is that with the loss of the Scottish seats in the Commons, the Government would have a stronger majority. But, hey, we can live with that.
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Post by LarsMac »

So, Ireland unites, and Scotland runs off to join the EU, and Wales will be stuck listening to all the tales of old glory from the aging big brother during family dinners, wondering if any of the rest of the old family will ever come around for the holidays.
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Post by spot »

LarsMac;1522962 wrote: So, Ireland unites, and Scotland runs off to join the EU, and Wales will be stuck listening to all the tales of old glory from the aging big brother during family dinners, wondering if any of the rest of the old family will ever come around for the holidays.


That sounds an ideal outcome. The Cornish could perhaps regain their own parliament too.
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Post by gmc »

FourPart;1522953 wrote: As far as I'm concerned the Scots can have their Independence. They will then lose all the funding from the UK, as well as having to develop their own currency. They will need to go through all the application procedure to join the EU (if it still exists by then) & to commit themselves to the Euro. There would also be the question of a Hard Border with England & perhaps the UK Industries pulling out of Scotland. No more representation in Westminster. Plus the majority for Leave amongst the rest of the UK would dramatically increase.

The only down side is that with the loss of the Scottish seats in the Commons, the Government would have a stronger majority. But, hey, we can live with that.


I see you have bought in to the myth that england subsidises scotland. It's the other way round without the oil revenues the UK was bankrupt, instead of using the oil windfall to build up out economy it was used to give tax breaks to the rich and pay dole money to all the people thatcher threw out of work. Scotland contriubutes 13% of the UK'sd DP we reeive back 8.5% through the barnett formula. Do the arithmetic.

It was also one of the lies told at the 2014 referendum that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote no. It was an important issue to many scots and too many in scotland fell for that one and now we find ourselves being taken out of the eu against our will. Scotland voted 62% to remain.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17586 ... billboard/

As to the currency I suggest you read the article and if westminster wants tio have a hard border that is up to them.

As to representation in westminster the scots MP's havb e been ignored and the scottish givernment has been excluded from any discussions about the negotiations. The snp are the third party in westminster not the libdems and by membership they are the second largest party in the UK after labour.

To give you a bit of perspective of the 27countries in tye eu deciding on whether to extend brexit 12 have smaller economies and populations that scotland and ireland is being backed up to the hilt unlike the treatment by westminster.

It's not a case IMO of whether we for for indeendence it's when and quite frankly westmiinster is not going to be able to do much to stop it. In a hung parliament with 50 or so snp mp's they will have to allow a referendum ande if they try and stop it it makes the farce of a "union" of equals even more obvious. .

You're going to have to find somewhere else to puit your nuclear submarines and the replacement for trident when that gets approved.

As to UK indistries pulling out out of scotland what exacty would they be and why would they want to lose access to the ei trading artea?? More likely we would see a move up here dso they can access the EU without tareiff barriers getting in the way.

It also seems increasingly likely that northern ireland may opt to join with the south although no doubt a few unionist fanatics will object.

In 2014 the westminster establishment panicked when ot looked like it would be a yes vote - hence the "vow" and the likes of gordon brown being riolled out and unbelieveably some waverers fell for it. Not again I donl't think. Basically the UK will cease to exist we will be OK as part of the eu you are stuffed.

Even if brexit gets stopped I think another referendum is very much on the cards.
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Post by gmc »

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/1 ... er-claims/

You may not be aware, since the bbc et al ckoose not to treport on the matter but the scottish government has announced the intention to hold another indepependence refereendum before may 2021 if the uk leaves the EU. You'd think the end of the united kingdom would get more interest.
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Post by FourPart »

The North Sea Oilfields are running dry. The revenue has been steadily falling. Furthermore, as they continue to dry up the cost of extracting it will increase. Then, along with the world becoming less & less reliant on fossil fuels the cost of oil will drop (Saudi has already been experiencing this drop in revenue).

The most favourable estimates that there is about enough to last 20 years longer. Ok, what then? Will Scotland then have another Referendum to re-join the UK after 20 years? Independence is for keeps - the long term picture.

Furthermore, one also has to remember that nowhere near all of the North Sea Oil goes to Scotland, or even the UK, being shared by Norway, Denmark, Germany & the Netherlands. From the SNP's propaganda you would think that Scotland had a monopoly on it.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/gover ... 2/pages/4/
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Post by gmc »

It's not all about the oil. Actually we generate about half our energy from renewable sources and would be wprld leaders in tidal power were it not for a hostile westminster government that is agin such things.We are also mworld leaders in things like computer gaming and satellite technology.

What propoganda are you on about? I suggest you read some of the acrtual snp economic plans rather than what is in the daily mail. The reality is without the dead hand of westminster on our throat we would be in a position to take measures to develop our economy leaving the eu would be devastating and most scots are bright enough to appreciate that.
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Post by gmc »

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6034496

"Date set for court case which could prosecute Boris Johnson over £350 million EU referendum lie"
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Post by gmc »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... alex-jones

OK I don't like farage but he is a dangerous idiot. UKip and now the brexit party are the fascist party of the UK by another name.
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This week's leak of the Government analysis of immediate problems anticipated with a hard Brexit are at and it's only 2600 words, well worth looking at.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... llowhammer discusses it. The dossier, compiled this month, says up to 85% of lorries using the main channel crossings “may not be ready” for French customs and could face queues of two and a half days.

A senior Whitehall source told the Sunday Times: “This is not Project Fear, this is the most realistic assessment of what the public face with no deal. These are likely, basic, reasonable scenarios – not the worst case.”
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Post by gmc »

A year ago but even more relevant now perhaps.

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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... vorce-bill

Oh goody does this mean nigelk farage won;t get his eu pension?
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Post by gmc »

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6235457

You have to laugh the libdems have only 14 MP's 5 of them are scots seats- including jo swinson's- and look likely to lose them at the next election they are the fouth largest party in westminster, yet they seem to kid themselves they will recover from that disaster of a coalition. I for one will never vore for them again.

They hold five of the 129 seats in holyrood but look likely to lose shetland in the by election currently taking place.

Thye snp are the third largest poltical party in westminster they have more actual paiod up members then the tories do yet you woiuld think they didn't exist or matter in all of this. I think no matter what the oitcopme of brexit scotland will be having another referendum and this time instead of starting from just over 20% in favour it's just under the 50%. To paraphrase wellington an anglo irishman it was a close run thing in 2014.

One other thing that staggers me about boris - he seems to assume trump will continue to be president and even if he does win it won;t be forever unless he manages to rewrite the constitution and make himself president for life.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1524638 wrote: One other thing that staggers me about boris - he seems to assume trump will continue to be president and even if he does win it won;t be forever unless he manages to rewrite the constitution and make himself president for life.


I'm not sure the future beyond crashing out and making a trade deal with America matters, the restraints will be firmly in place.

The price of a trade deal with America will be exchanging high standards for low in every area of our economy, and the certainty that Britain's foreign policy will be determined entirely by the State Department. No British government will be able to slip those fetters once our protection within the European Union disappears.

The length in office of the two existing leaders will have no effect on the permanence of the arrangement they come to.
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Post by spot »

The new Westminster term has kicked off a little prematurely with the Cabinet announcing Parliament is to shut down after three days until mid-October. The air is stiff with unprintable epithets, writs are before assorted constitutional courts, the Queen is being defended by everyone concerned. Nobody has so far asked the Army Council to intervene.
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spot;1524642 wrote: I'm not sure the future beyond crashing out and making a trade deal with America matters, the restraints will be firmly in place.

The price of a trade deal with America will be exchanging high standards for low in every area of our economy, and the certainty that Britain's foreign policy will be determined entirely by the State Department. No British government will be able to slip those fetters once our protection within the European Union disappears.

The length in office of the two existing leaders will have no effect on the permanence of the arrangement they come to.


The price of a trade deal with america will be the end of our farming and food industries as viable exporters. post no deal aall current freetrade agreements end - all 150 of them and our exporters will face massive tariffs, Whisky accounts for 20% of all food exports from the UK we also lose the regional protected status enjoyed as members of the eu.

As to the length of term having no effect we have already seen one us president rip up existing trade agreements with the likes orf canada and mexico and china we are about to rip up hundreds as we leave the eu no countrty will be able to trust us to keep our agreements any more than anyone now trusts the US.

As to the restraints they are not exactly working on trump are they?
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Post by spot »

Today's fury at the government being prorogued for five weeks across September and into October is all a bit postured. The government conventionally prorogues at this time of year in order to introduce a new set of legislative proposals, that's how it works. That's why the party conference season is timed for the same gap in the calendar.

The scandal, and there definitely is one, is Theresa May's intransigent refusal to bring forward new legislative proposals throughout her administration once she'd messed up her bullying increase-my-majority election. She settled in for a seige, she closed off the proper business of the House for years and she put the country in the position it now faces.

Boris may well be accused of opportunism but it's scarcely unusual in British politics to be opportunist. He saw the gap and picked up the ball and he's running. I'd be delighted if he ends up with egg on his face and Brexit cancelled though it's an unlikely outcome, but this is the first moment he's had to bring forward new proposals for a new session. He can't be faulted for grinning as he took it.
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spot;1524664 wrote: Today's fury at the government being prorogued for five weeks across September and into October is all a bit postured. The government conventionally prorogues at this time of year in order to introduce a new set of legislative proposals, that's how it works. That's why the party conference season is timed for the same gap in the calendar.

The scandal, and there definitely is one, is Theresa May's intransigent refusal to bring forward new legislative proposals throughout her administration once she'd messed up her bullying increase-my-majority election. She settled in for a seige, she closed off the proper business of the House for years and she put the country in the position it now faces.

Boris may well be accused of opportunism but it's scarcely unusual in British politics to be opportunist. He saw the gap and picked up the ball and he's running. I'd be delighted if he ends up with egg on his face and Brexit cancelled though it's an unlikely outcome, but this is the first moment he's had to bring forward new proposals for a new session. He can't be faulted for grinning as he took it.


Don't tell me you've fallen for that one the current circumstamces are hardly normal and It's a blatant attempt to shut out parliament and prevent them taking action to stopa no deal brexit. Parliament is the sovereign power in this country not the prime minister especially one elected by 0.02% of the voting population.

Theresa may has a lot to answer for not least keeping all the other political parties out of the process. This will lead to the break up of the united kingdom I woul;dn't be surprised if northern ireland opt to unite with the rest of the island there's no reason why religion can't be kept out of political settlements.
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The problem with "It's a blatant attempt" is that whether it is or whether it isn't, what is physically performed is identical.

What has happened is the same, whether the reason is that this is his first chance to bring forward fresh legislation or that it's a blatant attempt to railroad the MPs. You would see no difference in behavior, you would only see a difference in interpretation.

I'm not sure I'm close enough to events to know which interpretation is true and which is bias.
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spot;1524668 wrote: The problem with "It's a blatant attempt" is that whether it is or whether it isn't, what is physically performed is identical.

What has happened is the same, whether the reason is that this is his first chance to bring forward fresh legislation or that it's a blatant attempt to railroad the MPs. You would see no difference in behavior, you would only see a difference in interpretation.

I'm not sure I'm close enough to events to know which interpretation is true and which is bias.


Boris is a proven liar if you choose to believe him then good luck to you. He could hardly keep the smirk of hos face when he was announcing it.
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Post by spot »

gmc;1524672 wrote: Boris is a proven liar if you choose to believe him then good luck to you. He could hardly keep the smirk of hos face when he was announcing it.


I'm not happy with being the Defender of Boris but I would point out that if, as Mr Farage seems to believe, Boris is going to try to make a last-minute deal which retains Britain's place in the European economic treaty area, then alternatives from the House would indeed prevent him from doing so.

I do not believe Boris has any intention of doing that, but he is clearly right in saying he can have no impact in Europe between now and Halloween unless Parliament is shut down until the final fortnight.
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Post by Betty Boop »

spot;1524674 wrote: he is clearly right in saying he can have no impact in Europe between now and Halloween unless Parliament is shut down until the final fortnight.


Impact?? what will happen? Europe will fall over themselves to please Boris?

After all this time of them not budging they are suddenly going to give Boris what he wants, oooh did you see the pigs flying by.
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Post by spot »

I don't think Boris has any goal in mind other than to be free to make international trade deals, because if he stops short the Brexiteers will destroy the Conservative Party. So no, he's not going to make a deal. His excuse will be "the EU refused to remove the backstop arrangement" which is a fig leaf, not a requirement.
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spot;1524674 wrote: I'm not happy with being the Defender of Boris but I would point out that if, as Mr Farage seems to believe, Boris is going to try to make a last-minute deal which retains Britain's place in the European economic treaty area, then alternatives from the House would indeed prevent him from doing so.

I do not believe Boris has any intention of doing that, but he is clearly right in saying he can have no impact in Europe between now and Halloween unless Parliament is shut down until the final fortnight.


You can't defend the indefensible Boris is a liar and self aggrandising narcissist, Farage is not much better the only reason he got ahywnehre is because he got publicity beyond his real import. Tory greed and a supine media are on the verge of wrecking this country I have no time for either of them, Why anybody still trusts them I fand hard to credit.

Meanwhille the case for iondependence continues to be made

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17872 ... 39-debate/

The snp are in coalition in power on an electoral promise to hold anpother referendum if there was a material change such as beinmg taken out of the eu against our wishes, they also hold most of the westminster seats. The tories and labour might like to think there is no mandate for anopther refrendum but theyb are the clowns who think there is a mandate for a no deal brexit. Holyrood is elected on a proportional represntative basis, that they can get such a majority speaks volumes however much westminster likes to pretend otherwise.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-6243648

Labour and the tories lost their deposit both are on their way to becoming an irrelevance in scotland the lib dems - as the saying goes - have their coats on a shoogly preg . - eg. Jo swinson might not keep her seat at the next election.

Sadly this is the (hopefully aberrant) face of unionism in scotland let's hope the situation in ireland doesn't flare up. By the way it was orange thugs like these that attacked snp supporters in george square after the 2014 referendum was announced

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