UK comedy government at it again

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gmc
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Post by gmc »

Britain’s post-Brexit blue passport, intended as an icon of the UK’s regained independence from Europe, is set to be manufactured by a Franco-Dutch firm, according to reports.:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 67761.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 68316.html

Theresa May will not stop post-Brexit passports being made abroad, Downing Street says


This is beyond farce.
Bruv
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Post by Bruv »

What about the country that lost 25 million citizens fighting Hitler's hoards being called Nazis by our gobsh*te Foreign Secretary ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Bruv;1518397 wrote: What about the country that lost 25 million citizens fighting Hitler's hoards being called Nazis by our gobsh*te Foreign Secretary ?


The guy is a twit of the first order - no time for him.
gmc
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Post by gmc »

I'm more concerned about our own polioticians than what russia might be up to.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 69021.html

Not to mention the nutjopbs running the US - now we have john bolton as secretary of state. Anyone who thinks pre-emptive strikes are a good idea in a nuclear age is an idiot. Did mcmaster get fired for his hardline against russia?
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Post by gmc »

Large scale demonstration in edinburgh that you would think hadn't happened.

We were all at the #HOOP protest – but where was Scotland’s media? | The National
Clodhopper
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Post by Clodhopper »

Brexiters...

On the other issue, it would be helpful if Scotland could make its position clear: If we brexit (as seems at present almost certain), will Scotland hold another Independence referendum with a view to staying in the EU or at least the single market?
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Post by Night Watchman »

I can't see how people find it so extraordinary. The ensuing furore, is side stepping the most important part, and that's, we have our own passports back. Had it not been for a referendum, or if the remain camp had been victorious, not many would even mention this.

There could be an explanation, such as difficulty in finding a manufacturer in the U.K, or the cost, being a fraction of what the U.K. based manufacturers would charge.
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Post by FourPart »

Clodhopper;1518418 wrote: Brexiters...

On the other issue, it would be helpful if Scotland could make its position clear: If we brexit (as seems at present almost certain), will Scotland hold another Independence referendum with a view to staying in the EU or at least the single market?


The first one was a case of Independence would be definite leaving the EU (as membership was only associated with the UK) or maybe leaving the EU (as the Referendum had not yet taken place). It always struck me that the SNP was always too eager about having their Referendum & getting it in before the EU Referendum.

One thing's for sure, though. If you disregard the Scottish vote by accepting them to be Independant, then the majority Leave vote of the rest of the UK suddenly goes much higher.
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Post by FourPart »

Quite frankly, I don't believe for one minute that the Russians had anything to do with the Skripal business. Putin was already on a sure thing to win his vote. He didn't need the Nationalist vote by flag waving a relatively unknown traitor with nothing more to offer anyone.

The facts of the case keep falling apart.

1. Within days they had precisely identified the toxin as being one made by the Russians.

2. The line then changed to one of a type made by the Russians.

3. The line then changed to one of a type being developed by the Russians (although not necessarily in production).

4. Putin has denied it (Why? What could we do about it?) & has asked for samples so that they can run their own investigations. This request has been denied.

5. 5 miles up the road is Porton Down - the base where the UK make their own Nerve Agents.

6. The timing is just too convenient - weeks before what looks to be an embarassing defeat in local elections for the Tories. A bit of Flag Waving never goes amiss.

7. The BBC were shown up to be Photoshopping a picture of Jeremy Corbyn to make him look like a Russian stooge. The BBC even had the gall to deny it had been Photoshopped, yet if you view the 2 images together, it is clear it has been.

8. Days beforehand a Tory MP was made to admit that he lied about Corbyn having given Official Secrets to a Czech Spy - and had to pay a sizeable figure to a charity of Corbyn's choice as a settlement.

All of these are known facts. As far as I am concerned, it looks more like an inside job. After all, when it comes to killing people, the Russians are far more efficient. They keep to methods that work - like a bullet to the head, or a bomb. The whole nerve agent thing is just too bizarrely dramatic & James Bond-esque - as if it was staged to fit the populist fantasy of what it's supposedly like to live & die as a Spy.

Then there's the expulsion of 23 diplomats - immediately, just as expected, met with the expulsion of 23 UK diplomats. It's so farcical it's straight from "Yes Prime Minister".

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Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1518418 wrote: Brexiters...

On the other issue, it would be helpful if Scotland could make its position clear: If we brexit (as seems at present almost certain), will Scotland hold another Independence referendum with a view to staying in the EU or at least the single market?


One of the arguments put by the unionist side at the referendum was that the only way to stay in the eu was to remain in the union. After the referendum the snp position was that it would only become an issue again if there was a material change such as the UK leaving the EU. Nicola sturgeon stated that her position was there would and could only be a second independence referendum once the terms of any brexit agreement were known. The only people who keep bringinmg up a second independencve referendum are the unionists who keep asking about it (in tye scottish parliament) and telling her to get on with the day job and the unionist press who like to pretend that the snp don't have a mandate to pursue independence. Read it for yourself.

https://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_s_s ... d_s_future

The scottish government has been excluded from the brexit discussions and the tories are trying to undermine the devolution act by taking already devolved powers back to westminster arguing they have the right to do say regardless of what the scottish parliament has to say on the matter. The scottish fishermen who voted for brexit have just had an object lesson on how much you can trust the tories they also believed the crap about how westminster would look after fishermen's intersts better than an independent scotland could.

So in summary the postion is quite clear. We have a right to hold a second referendum but will wait and see what brexit brings. The way the tories are carrying on and also labour under corbyn have made it clear that scottish affairs are of little interest - Corbyn is on record as stating that he didn't see how scotland could have a seperate legal and education system within the union this demonstrating his complete and utter ignorance of the fact that we already do have a seperate legal and education system.

https://www.holyrood.com/articles/insid ... ion-detail

Could you have a separate economic and legal system in different parts of the UK? I think that becomes difficult and very problematic.

"I want a Labour government that is going to legislate better working conditions for everybody across the UK."

Scotland, of course, already has a largely separate legal system with some notable exceptions, including employment law which regulates working conditions across the UK.






labour lost so much in scotland thanks to new labour - they were increasingly seen a "tory lite" and the snp more left wing corbyn might have clawed them back now maybe not. If you really want to piss off the scots patronise them.

Bear in mind the issue is not whether the snp should govern scotland but whether we would be better off on our own. Hopefdully those who vioted no and did so because they believed what they were told by the union ists will not be so gullible next time. Sturgeon is playing a canny hand if the tories turn round and tell us we can't have a second referendum well one can opnly hope they wilo be so stupid.

Hope that helps.

posted by four part

The first one was a case of Independence would be definite leaving the EU (as membership was only associated with the UK) or maybe leaving the EU (as the Referendum had not yet taken place). It always struck me that the SNP was always too eager about having their Referendum & getting it in before the EU Referendum.

One thing's for sure, though. If you disregard the Scottish vote by accepting them to be Independant, then the majority Leave vote of the rest of the UK suddenly goes much higher.


Hope that answers you as well. The snp have never been too eager about having their second referendum they've always said they would wait and see the outcome. Don;t believe the daily mail or the bbc. I have nicola strurgeon being interviewed state that any refrendum would have to be once the terms were known and have the interviewer ask why was she planning to have a referndum when the brexit terms were not yet known.

NB: the snp were returned to power albeit in coalition with the greens ion the bacvk of a manifesto that had the proviso in it to have another referendum is there was a material change such as leaving the eu.

Another NB: scotlland is a nation within a supposed political union on these islands rather like the UK being a member of a political union with the EU. If england reserves the right to leave the EU because it is no longer in their interests to remain to suggest we don't have theb same chouce vis a vis the UK they can hardly turn round and say we don't have the same choice. Scottish independence terrifies the UK establishment maybe you should ask yourself why. If we are such a drain and are being subsidised by englkand through the barrett formula they would be happy to see us go. The reality is very different. you need us whether we need you is a moot point. Sadky thanks to the infkluence of ukip and the brexit campaign politicak debate has devolved on to a shouting match with those without a good case to put shouting the loudest.

Sadly I suspect it won't be until we have a privatised NHS and all the employee rights have been removed that those numpties that voted to leave the eu will finally understand what is going on.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Thanks. That's very much what I hoped was the case but honestly I'm losing track of who said what when and does it still apply - especially the bit about the conditions required to trigger a 2nd Indyref. I am considering the possibility of moving to the Scottish Borders (as I think I've mentioned before). I can make some of the numbers work but at present I can't see clearly how to support myself adequately. I'm a landlord here who owns one property and rents a couple of rooms. I can't do that in the Borders, I think, and I'm not cut out to be a multi-property landlord.

Anyway, I'm looking at possibilities. It's both brexit and vibration motivated. And I suppose the idea has a whiff of adventure about it, and family legend has it we originate in the Borders. I'm a leeetle suspicious of that one since it may just be romantic Victorian legend, but it is true that all the men in the family have Angus somewhere in the name. Much cheaper to live up there too - the reduction in cost goes some way to paying for a vehicle but not all the way. Is solar power a realistic option in the s of Scotland?

Against a move is that all my friends and support mechanisms are here and even under the worst brexit scenarios the leaked gov't figures suggest London will suffer least (-2%) because we are already a multicultural global city. And that "we" is revealing. I am a Londoner now. In addition, if I go to Scotland, possible Scottish ancestors won't save me from racist abuse for being English from some. That may be worsened if many others have the same idea as me and there is a substantial English minority taking local jobs. I appreciate Scotland has a declining population issue and is looking for people but the reality of a large number of English suddenly turning up might well feel like colonisation. I can cope with it (I have in the past) but it isn't a plus factor.

Do I really feel so strongly about being deprived of my EU identity and horrified by what will happen to a brexiting UK that effective emigration is the answer? I know other Remainer friends are looking at this issue. One is out in NZ at present...

Also been looking in Dumfries and Galloway but man some of that looks remote. And bleak. But beautiful. Oddly enough I have some mountain skills (rusty as heck) and rural interests (ditto) but reliably getting enough cash... at present that's an issue. Not far off, though. And though I'm sort of coping with the vibration by gosh I'm sick of it.

I haven't decided yet. But I'll keep working on the plan.
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Post by Clodhopper »

FourPart;1518427 wrote: Quite frankly, I don't believe for one minute that the Russians had anything to do with the Skripal business. Putin was already on a sure thing to win his vote. He didn't need the Nationalist vote by flag waving a relatively unknown traitor with nothing more to offer anyone.

The facts of the case keep falling apart.

1. Within days they had precisely identified the toxin as being one made by the Russians.

2. The line then changed to one of a type made by the Russians.

3. The line then changed to one of a type being developed by the Russians (although not necessarily in production).

4. Putin has denied it (Why? What could we do about it?) & has asked for samples so that they can run their own investigations. This request has been denied.

5. 5 miles up the road is Porton Down - the base where the UK make their own Nerve Agents.

6. The timing is just too convenient - weeks before what looks to be an embarassing defeat in local elections for the Tories. A bit of Flag Waving never goes amiss.

7. The BBC were shown up to be Photoshopping a picture of Jeremy Corbyn to make him look like a Russian stooge. The BBC even had the gall to deny it had been Photoshopped, yet if you view the 2 images together, it is clear it has been.

8. Days beforehand a Tory MP was made to admit that he lied about Corbyn having given Official Secrets to a Czech Spy - and had to pay a sizeable figure to a charity of Corbyn's choice as a settlement.

All of these are known facts. As far as I am concerned, it looks more like an inside job. After all, when it comes to killing people, the Russians are far more efficient. They keep to methods that work - like a bullet to the head, or a bomb. The whole nerve agent thing is just too bizarrely dramatic & James Bond-esque - as if it was staged to fit the populist fantasy of what it's supposedly like to live & die as a Spy.

Then there's the expulsion of 23 diplomats - immediately, just as expected, met with the expulsion of 23 UK diplomats. It's so farcical it's straight from "Yes Prime Minister".




That ignores that the Europeans, especially France and Germany, actually ARE taking action about this. I don't think they'd fall in with a UK gov't plot and they'd have to be convinced. Also, it's not the first time. Remember Litvinenko? Poisoned. Finger pointed at Russia. Denied. Several other cases now being looked at again - 14 I think. 14! That's a lot when you take it in isolation. So by your argument it's not just the government, it's the judicial system that's in on this plot even though the judicial system doesn't blindly support the gov't in this country. Yet, at least. As the various legal challenges to brexit have shown. Remember how the brexit press called the judiciary traitors for not supporting the gov't on brexit and now you accuse them of plotting with the government to deceive the whole country? On an issue that gains us nothing? All it does is distract the Press a bit from brexit!

Russia has pushed it a bit too far on this it seems. I don't think they expected that the Europeans would back the UK position - I didn't expect them to back it this strongly. That they have done so even though we are brexiting is an indication of how seriously they take this issue. I leave the US out - under Trump they are totally unreliable in relation to Russia. edit: Just seen they've expelled 60 diplomats. So it seems they do take this seriously. 47 more expelled across Europe (not just EU) and 4 from Canada

Your first three points make something out of nothing.

4) Standard Russian tactic: Plausible deniability (Cold War origin really, I suppose. US does it too). Unless it is beyond doubt proven they deny. Witness the Dutch airliner their forces shot down in the Ukraine. They've done it time and again since WW2 at least because it is often very hard to prove unless the accuser reveals information that indicates where the proof came from and THAT likely WILL put agents in danger and we do have these agents as the current poisoning shows. However it seems that the excuse is wearing a bit thin with other nations than the UK.

5) Porton Down is 5 miles away. Impossible for the nerve agent to escape and appear only 5 miles away without any trace between - dead and poisoned people, animals etc so you are saying the closeness to Porton Down means it is deliberate action by the gov't or their agents. Rubbish. Porton Down could be in NI or Scotland or Australia and it wouldn't make any difference if the gov't wanted to poison someone.

6) Gov't poisons people to distract from local election results. Read that again and tell me you are serious. The gov't would cause a major incident with the world's biggest nuclear power to cover up potentially bad local election results which haven't happened yet? Baaad timing since it needed to happen at the same time as the local election results came out or at least close to them if it was to be effective as a cover up. If you ARE serious, why did you vote to give the gov't more power? LOTS more power if they get away with the Henry VIII powers abuse that has been noted by parliament but not acted against, at least not yet.

7) BBC photoshopping Corbyn (or not) has what relevance to Putin poisoning exchanged agents? Are you saying the BBC are in on this plot to cover up the gov't local election results with the government and the judiciary? And you think the EU is worse than this? Must do since you voted for this and against the EU. Wow.

8) Tory lying about Corbyn - must be a government plot to implicate Russia to cover up the local election results. Just wow.

None of your points have any relevance whatever.
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

Clodhopper;1518436 wrote: Thanks. That's very much what I hoped was the case but honestly I'm losing track of who said what when and does it still apply - especially the bit about the conditions required to trigger a 2nd Indyref. I am considering the possibility of moving to the Scottish Borders (as I think I've mentioned before). I can make some of the numbers work but at present I can't see clearly how to support myself adequately. I'm a landlord here who owns one property and rents a couple of rooms. I can't do that in the Borders, I think, and I'm not cut out to be a multi-property landlord.

Anyway, I'm looking at possibilities. It's both brexit and vibration motivated. And I suppose the idea has a whiff of adventure about it, and family legend has it we originate in the Borders. I'm a leeetle suspicious of that one since it may just be romantic Victorian legend, but it is true that all the men in the family have Angus somewhere in the name. Much cheaper to live up there too - the reduction in cost goes some way to paying for a vehicle but not all the way. Is solar power a realistic option in the s of Scotland?

Against a move is that all my friends and support mechanisms are here and even under the worst brexit scenarios the leaked gov't figures suggest London will suffer least (-2%) because we are already a multicultural global city. And that "we" is revealing. I am a Londoner now. In addition, if I go to Scotland, possible Scottish ancestors won't save me from racist abuse for being English from some. That may be worsened if many others have the same idea as me and there is a substantial English minority taking local jobs. I appreciate Scotland has a declining population issue and is looking for people but the reality of a large number of English suddenly turning up might well feel like colonisation. I can cope with it (I have in the past) but it isn't a plus factor.

Do I really feel so strongly about being deprived of my EU identity and horrified by what will happen to a brexiting UK that effective emigration is the answer? I know other Remainer friends are looking at this issue. One is out in NZ at present...

Also been looking in Dumfries and Galloway but man some of that looks remote. And bleak. But beautiful. Oddly enough I have some mountain skills (rusty as heck) and rural interests (ditto) but reliably getting enough cash... at present that's an issue. Not far off, though. And though I'm sort of coping with the vibration by gosh I'm sick of it.

I haven't decided yet. But I'll keep working on the plan.


You will meet some anti english sentiment we have our idiots like everyone else it depends where you go. Less so in the borders and for a time the one and only tory MP was from dumfries and galloway. I lived in london you occasionally get anti snyone not from london sentiment depending where you go. I suggest you check internet availablity and mobile phone connectivity if you are considering the borders.

When it comes to racism and recent accusations against corbyn how come the same charge is not levelled at UKIP et al? especially when you look at some of the comments made about east europeans.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -europeans

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/featu ... 22799.html
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Post by Clodhopper »

chuckle. A gay English chef acquaintance of mine moved to Scotland and opened a restaurant with his partner (they'd run one down here for ages and fancied a change). He says the only difference is that "English" has been added to "gay bastard" when he gets abuse. They are very happy up there.
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Post by FourPart »

Clodhopper;1518437 wrote:

5) Porton Down is 5 miles away. Impossible for the nerve agent to escape and appear only 5 miles away without any trace between - dead and poisoned people, animals etc so you are saying the closeness to Porton Down means it is deliberate action by the gov't or their agents. Rubbish. Porton Down could be in NI or Scotland or Australia and it wouldn't make any difference if the gov't wanted to poison someone.
The point is not anything about accidental leakage, but that it would be far more accessible to someone closer to home than the Russians.



6) Gov't poisons people to distract from local election results. Read that again and tell me you are serious. The gov't would cause a major incident with the world's biggest nuclear power to cover up potentially bad local election results which haven't happened yet? Baaad timing since it needed to happen at the same time as the local election results came out or at least close to them if it was to be effective as a cover up. If you ARE serious, why did you vote to give the gov't more power? LOTS more power if they get away with the Henry VIII powers abuse that has been noted by parliament but not acted against, at least not yet.
Polls have shown that her flag waving is having exactly the desired result.

As for voting to give the Government more power. In what way have I voted in any such way? As for powers being abused, that is the matter in hand in the first place. It is not the powers that are necessarily wrong, but the way in which they are abused.

7) BBC photoshopping Corbyn (or not) has what relevance to Putin poisoning exchanged agents? Are you saying the BBC are in on this plot to cover up the gov't local election results with the government and the judiciary? And you think the EU is worse than this? Must do since you voted for this and against the EU. Wow.


Just why is it that you & your like seem to equate Brexit with Tory. You may recall that the official stance of both Tory AND Labour was to Remain. They were clearly both out of touch with the will of the Public. If Party Campaigning had been more representative I believe the outcome would have been a much higher majority to Leave.

As for the relevance of Photoshopping - it has every relevance. May's Flag Waving campaign has been set in no uncertain trems to focus on mud slinging at Jeremy, and she gets her Stool Pigeon BBC Propaganda Machine to take care of it that they portray him as being Pro-Russian.

8) Tory lying about Corbyn - must be a government plot to implicate Russia to cover up the local election results. Just wow.


Other way round - using Russia to implicate Corbyn.

Tory lies regarding Skripal start to come to light.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... ssion=true
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Post by Clodhopper »

If you can believe the stuff you apparently believe there is little point talking about it. You go on thinking Putin is a nice, put upon person who has done nothing but got this worldwide reaction. Wups.

I think brexit is a far right project because the people running it are far right. They are supported by the far right. Billionaires see opportunity. Goldsmith (billionaire MP) told me so. The advice given is to move your money out of the UK for a time (not given) then move back and buy buy buy. Redwood and Rees-Mogg both told their investors that and it's been in the public domain.

Not for the ordinary bloke. But when major backers of the project say do this to the people who pay them then take it seriously. They think brexit will trash the place. To them it is worth it to turn the place into an offshore tax haven where the ultra rich like Putin can store their money anonymously through dodgy accounting and shell companies. In other words they want to allow dictators to launder their money through us as long as they can take their cut. To do that they need freedom from EU law.

The EU was never the problem. It was a major part of the solution. You've given us to the far right.

Why do I keep saying that? Because the people running brexit are from the far right of the tory party. Johnson, Davis, Fox are far right tories that were kept away from power by the likes of John Major. Now you've let them loose.

There may be left wing and moderate brexit backers. Their views are irrelevant because they have no power and the people running their project are far right tories. Far right tories with the power to rephrase EU law coming into English Common Law, to suit the far right tory agenda. Let me remind you these are people previous tory governments have never let near power.

Please stop ignoring the fascist and openly racist element of brexit. It is substantial enough to cause a 16% spike in race hate crime after the vote.

Discussion is pointless. You think brexit will be great. I don't.

You've taken away our chance of being part of the greatest project this continent has ever seen to create a future based on peace and prosperity, the rule of law and the freedom of the individual that has ever existed and you have no idea what you have done. This may even be the bad nudge at a bad time that destroys that project with appalling consequences. The last two times similar things happened world wars were the result. Both in the last 100 years.

You go on about brexit as some principle. The best I can say about most brexiters is they were protest voting with no care for the consequences. No brexit principles I can see, just blaming the EU for every problem. Wrongly.

Well. We're all going to pay for your delusions.

Oh and less of brexit being the will of the British public. It is the will of just over half the British public that voted for a campaign that is looking increasingly financially dodgy, with Russian interference pro-brexit fronted by blatant liars. Proud to be of the 48% not fooled.

The US sees us as in a weak position after brexit and is slavering. We're not going to get anything less than a Trump America first deal for at least a decade. And a change of administration. Do you think Fox will do less than swallow and swallow and swallow for brexit and his career and to hell with our standards and regulations which save YOU from abuse because they will be sold like fishing rights to get the deal that makes his career look good and brexit is all that matters.

We are not in a good negotiating position for brexit or post brexit deals.

Just remember: brexit and the consequences of brexit are YOUR fault. You've fallen for the lies, swallowed the bait, been well and truly fooled. And we will all pay for it.

Oh, and tory brexit leader proves incompetent shock horror. This is the guy who accidentally got a UK citizen jailed in Iran by opening his gob and being wrong. Who said we can have our cake and eat it. Nothing Johnson says has any bearing on anything but Johnson's career. This is a guy brexit voters put in power. One of their leaders, without their vote would not be in power. Like Davis and Fox. The brexit voters' responsibility.

It's like Nazi voters in the 1920's. Protest vote for some, a vote for political calm for others. They had no idea what a vote for Hitler really meant. That's brexiters now. Fortunately our Hitler was Farage, and whatever his vices and virtues, being a real leader isn't among them.

Sovereignty: Every deal is a ceding of sovereignty. You agree to limit your freedom of action for some perceived gain (which is a ceding of their sovereignty). We had a great deal with the EU. Now we are getting a worse economic deal (it has to be) and ceding sovereignty to US law or Indian law, or the Chinese government, which is claimed is going to make us all rich. Far right project...

And if you are wondering why I am so passionate about this I say again it's the EU being the most hopeful prospect for a peaceful and prosperous future based on the rule of law and the freedom of the individual that has ever existed in the whole bloodsoaked history of Europe and you've taken us out of it. And you don't have a clue what you have done.
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Post by FourPart »

Clodhopper;1518488 wrote:

It's like Nazi voters in the 1920's. Protest vote for some, a vote for political calm for others. They had no idea what a vote for Hitler really meant. That's brexiters now. Fortunately our Hitler was Farage, and whatever his vices and virtues, being a real leader isn't among them.


Except Hitler never won the election. Hindenburg did. Hitler's Nazis were the minority, with only 36% of the vote - the Remainers, if you will. Due to the increasing pressure of the minority group Hindenburg gave concessions to Hitler by making him Chancellor. When Hindenburg died Hitler acceded him, did away with the office of President & declared a new one - Fuhrer. There certainly is a parallel here. The Minority wanting control over the Majority, and to Hell with Democracy.
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Post by gmc »

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/ ... nformation

Total Electorate: 46,500,001

Turnout: 72.2%

Rejected Ballots: 25,359




The turnout for the referendum was 72%. Those voting to leave were 51% of the turnout in other words the vote to leave is around 36% of the electorate. Or put another way 74% of the electorate do not want brexit. Only the most demented brexiteer can argue there is a clear mandate. Over the next three years the incrtease in those able to vote in the 18-30 bracket is likely to swing it even more agaimst leaving. Bear in mind camneron did not allow expats to vote and did noy allow the vote at age 16 as was suggested and as was allowed in the scottish referendum.

Our flawed electoral system means the least unpopular candidate with the highest % of votes win the seat, typically we have MP's representing constituencies for whom 2/3rds of the electorate voted against. We have a parliamentary democracy so far we have seen the tories deliberately try and sideline parliament and give more power to ministers. If it was a bad idea before the referendum is still a bad idea after it.- so much for us taking back control. They are led by a prime minister who argued against leaving, if it was a bad idea befire it's still a bad idea afterwards if she had any integrity she would not be prime minister.

We live in a democracy that means we have the right to change our minds and anyone whom says otherwise is an idiot.

May does not even have the common sense to include the deviolved governments and instead seems hell bent on undoing the devolution agreement. If this goes through it is likely you will see the break up of the united kingdom. Have your brexit paradise like most scots I am well aware of all we have gained from the eu and the befits membership brings us.

Fascist - have a look at those laws the right wing want to undo - goodbye employment rights, goodbye NHS (that's a socialist policy in case you didn't know). Don't tell remainers to suck it up we're not having it and while we still live in a democracy with free speech we will not be silenced. Churchill by the way was an early advicate of a european union.
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Post by FourPart »

Using non-existant votes as an argument for having lost a vote was never a valid one. You are assuming that every vote that wasn't cast would have been a vote to Remain. It would make more sense to assume that the proportionate vote would have been the same as those that were cast, which would mean that the total votes cast would have exactly the same proportionate outcome.

Furthermore, this was not a FPTP vote. It was a simple Binary option. In or Out. In a multi partisan situation the argument of a 'least popular candidate' might carry some weight, but not in this sort of situation. The voting conditions for this Referendum were the same throughout the UK. The rules for the Scottish Independance Referendum were different as it was a totally different issue. The matter of the Scottish Referendum was that if they left the UK then it would definitely mean leaving the EU whereas, because the EU Referendum had not yet been held, the option to Remain meant a possibility or Remaining in the EU. IE Definitely Out or Maybe Out.

On the assumption that the Scottish Referendum had gone to Independance, then the Scottish Vote would not have been part of the EU Referendum, which would have made the majority of a Leave Vote for the rest of the UK even higher, due to the Scottish vote being so high to Remain.

One thing about a Binary Vote is that the results are plain & simple. There is no dispute about votes being split between other candidates. Votes that are not cast do not come into the equation whatsoever. As with any election, those who choose not to vote have no right to complain at the outcome.
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Post by FourPart »

gmc;1518547 wrote: Fascist - have a look at those laws the right wing want to undo - goodbye employment rights, goodbye NHS (that's a socialist policy in case you didn't know). Don't tell remainers to suck it up we're not having it and while we still live in a democracy with free speech we will not be silenced. Churchill by the way was an early advicate of a european union.


If you are referring to selling off the NHS to be a Socialist policy, I presume you are referring to the infamous Tory Bliar, a treachourous War Criminal, who used, and still uses, the Labour Banner in order to campaign for Tory policies. At the GE he told Labour voters to vote Tory in order to bring about a 2nd Referendum. Now, with the Local Elections he is doing the same thing & advising the Tories on what to do in order to stop a Labour victory. I would hardly describe this slimeball as a Socialist.

As for getting rid of Employment Rights - this has steadily been happening under a Tory Government. They have pretty much destroyed the strength of the Unions - and what has the EU done to stop any of that? Who was the first country to have a Trade Union? Britain was. I am a direct descendant of James Brine, one of the Tolpuddle Martyrs, so I have a particular family tie to Unionism. Before the EU the Trade Unions were thriving.

Churchill was in no way an advocate of an EU. He was totally opposed to it.

As Prime Minister in 1953, he was explicit that Britain should not be part of the arrangement. He told the Commons: “Where do we stand? We are not members of the European Defence Community, nor do we intend to be merged in a Federal European system. We feel we have a special relation to both. This can be expressed by prepositions, by the preposition ‘with’ but not ‘of’ – we are with them, but not of them. We have our own Commonwealth and Empire.”
https://www.express.co.uk/news/history/ ... ion-Brexit
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I agree that Churchill, while favouring the nascent EU, was not in favour of us joining it in 1953 because as you quote, we had our own Empire and still have a Commonwealth, although it is not an economic union as it was when we had the Imperial Preference System. He certainly supported the nascent EU for Europe.

Now that we don't have an Empire and the Commonwealth is not an economic benefit his reasons as given no longer have relevance. I wonder if he'd still have been against joining in those circumstances? He offered a political Union with France when they were conquered by the Nazis, after all, so he wasn't against the idea in principle.

Tell me something positive about brexit. Give me something to look forward to, to hope for. So far brexiters have offered NOTHING. Bad deals, lies, incompetence, bad faith and personal ambition. That's brexit.

How does Tony Blair not being real Labour (in your opinion) justify you voting for a racist fascist brexit and somehow not being at all racist or fascist because you say you aren't even though what you actually DID says you ARE. You voted for and support the brexit offered by this government - Dimwit Davis, Liar Johnson and ****wit Fox's far right brexit. You voted for them and their policies but claim you don't support their policies and didn't vote for them.

You're a total ****ed up mess.

chuckle. Has a go at me for being gullible taking ONS figures seriously - and then quotes the Express, a paper for elderly tories who think Thatcher was ok until she went soft.
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Post by Clodhopper »

FourPart;1518544 wrote: Except Hitler never won the election. Hindenburg did. Hitler's Nazis were the minority, with only 36% of the vote - the Remainers, if you will. Due to the increasing pressure of the minority group Hindenburg gave concessions to Hitler by making him Chancellor. When Hindenburg died Hitler acceded him, did away with the office of President & declared a new one - Fuhrer. There certainly is a parallel here. The Minority wanting control over the Majority, and to Hell with Democracy.


Election of March 5th 1933: the Nazis received 43.9% of the popular vote and 288 seats in the Reichstag out of a total of 647 seats. This made them the largest Party and Hitler Chancellor, and Hindenberg had been President since 1925 when the Nazis polled around 2 or 3 % of the popular vote. The Presidential election was separate from the Parliamentary election, a bit like the US voting for President and separately for Congress. Hindenberg did however warmly support Hitler as a strong leader.

So you are completely wrong on this. Hitler won that election with a larger mandate than our brexit government has.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Let's assume for a moment that brexit is the disaster it looks as though it will be, with NI exploding again because they can't sort out the Border issue, Scotland leaving the Union and economic disaster across the UK. 17 million out of 65 or so million voted for it. Just over 1/4 voted for it. Ok, it's obvious that the 16million Remainers will make their feelings known. But what of the vast number who didn't vote at all? If brexit is a disaster do you think they'll feel warmly to those who caused their country to be torn apart and devastated?

Better hope that these lying tory bastards you support can deliver you a successful brexit.
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Post by gmc »

Incompetence ot simple racism

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 08936.html

Home Office under Theresa May destroyed evidence able to spare Windrush generation from deportation

Landing cards – recording dates of arrival in the UK – were thrown away, despite staff warnings, ex-employee reveals




Something else you won't see in the daily mail

UK refers Scotland's Brexit Bill to Supreme Court | The National

If you read the mainstream press and watch the bbc you would think brexit is all done and dusted. IMO if we had another election at this point the tories would be wiped out they're fascists in all but name most brexiteers seem to have little understanding of how our parliamentyary system is supposed to work. Not to worry the royal wedding is soon to come so that's all right then.
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Post by Clodhopper »

The BBC is under assault from brexiters for not publishing pro-brexit propaganda to support their country (also to a lesser extent from Remainers who feel it is caving under pressure from brexiters).

There are still Russian trolls on the BBC HYS though they are less incompetent and fewer. But you still get comments that look as though they were translated direct from 1970s Pravda - there was one recently which condemned Remainers and the BBC for opposing the democratically expressed will of the people.

It takes a truly fundamental misunderstanding of democracy to write something like that. Native brexiters stopped using that one within days of the vote when it was pointed out that opposition is essential in a democracy and they'd been opposing the EU for decades against the democratically expressed wish of the joining referendum. The argument then degenerated into Common Market/EU/Nazi German takeover but the point about opposition in a democracy wasn't opposed.

They do have an article and a HYS on the BBC regarding the Scottish Brexit Bill: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-43742208



Given the choice between cock-up and conspiracy I usually go for cock-up. Unless we get serious evidence to the contrary that's my position on throwing out old paperwork - unless it turns out the Windrush stuff was the only old paperwork got rid of. The historian in me is whimpering, though. This was back in 2010 and brexit hadn't been thought of. The current immigration ****e is brexit related so I don't see a link at present

edit: And why wasn't something like that automatically sent to the Public Record Office at Kew? Not their sort of record I suppose (?) but you'd have thought the historical significance was obvious.
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Post by LarsMac »

We don't really get a lot of news over here on how this Brexit thing is progressing, and I've been too busy with personal stuff to go looking for news on it.

This thread has been my sole source of info, of late.
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Post by gmc »

Posted by larsmac

We don't really get a lot of news over here on how this Brexit thing is progressing, and I've been too busy with personal stuff to go looking for news on it.

This thread has been my sole source of info, of late.




Don't see why you should it's not really something that will affect america.

We're in the middle of a major political crisis instigated by a bunch of racist halfwits and a constitutional crisis that is possibly going to lead to the end of the united kingdom as scotland declares independence. Scotland will be OK staying in the eu england is in the **** they also have the problem of where to rebase all the nuclear submarines and where the replacement for trident will be based. Watch this space looksw like the UK government will probably oppose another scottish indepence referendum, silly thing to do.
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Post by LarsMac »

gmc;1518733 wrote:

We're in the middle of a major political crisis instigated by a bunch of racist halfwits and a constitutional crisis that is possibly going to lead to the end ...


We can relate to that much of it.
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Post by Clodhopper »

The main reason we are in a mess at this moment is that although there were enough voted to Leave there was absolutely no thought given to what we would do once we left, or the process of leaving. The result is that there is no agreement on how matters should proceed and what the destination is, even among those who want to leave. Some want to leave everything NOW, some want to leave the political union but stay in the economic one and some want to only partially leave the political union and stay completely in the economic one.

Then we have the people running it. David Davis is our chief negotiator and a long term Leaver. He was described by one of the managers of the Leave campaign as "Thick as mince, lazy as a toad and vain as Narcissus." His performance to date confirms the description. It seems his stupidity has put us in an impossible situation on the Irish Border issue.

The problem here is that no-one can decide where or what the Border should be and not one brexiter seems even to have considered the possibility there might be a problem in advance. I've just seen that the UK suggestions have just been taken apart by the EU side and rejected. This matters because that idiot Davis has committed us to accepting all EU regulations but having no say in them if a solution can't be found, or (I think - it's all a bit unclear) to accepting a border in the Irish Sea which will make the Unionists (who want union with the UK) absolutely scream because it would be a significant step to a united Ireland (fighting against which is the whole point of the Unionists' existence), and without Unionist support the Government loses its majority in Parliament.

The Foreign Secretary is Liar Johnson. I honestly believe he shows a number of psychopathic traits and would love to see how he scored on a proper test. This doesn't necessarily make him a bad politician, but coupled with his huge personal ambition it makes him very dangerous. I think Milton caught his type perfectly in Paradise Lost: when Satan first looks round in Hell his reaction is

...Here at least

we shall be free; the Almighty hath not built

Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choice

to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:

Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

(What I give Johnson and Milton's Satan over Trump is personality. They at least have one; Trump just has a collection of issues.)

The only reason I have been given to leave the EU that has any truth to it is that there is corruption there and some of the newer states in particular are dodgy in some aspects of their democracy and have the Russian attitude to politics which is that the point of election is to siphon off as much money as you can as fast as possible into your Swiss bank account. Or London.

Over here we've had a number of corruption scandals. Cash for questions in Parliament was a good one. I wouldn't regard us as really bad as these things go but corruption crops up everywhere over time and is a constant battle. So it's not as if we're leaving a corrupt hell for a pure paradise. It also misses the point that the EU was working to improve these countries and brexit has stopped that process dead as the unity of the remaining 27 is now the most important thing.

As a Remainer I have still not been shown anything positive about brexit. As far as I can see, it is purely and simply running away. More than that, it is running away from a mouse because people have been convinced it's a Tiger tank with Hitler in the turret.
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Post by gmc »

posted by clodhopper

The main reason we are in a mess at this moment is that although there were enough voted to Leave there was absolutely no thought given to what we would do once we left, or the process of leaving.


IMO some people voted to leave as a way of protesting about the way things are in general many more didn't bother because they don't think it makes any difference. Brexiteers are terrified of anothger referendum because they know the result would be so much the other way it would kill the issue for years to come. More to the point the electiorate is changing with young people overwhelmingly in favour of remaining and would be the most to suffer from the consequences of what is happening. There are now more of them and those who didn't bother voting now perhaps a better understanding of what happens when you let bigots and racists set the agenda.

Watched the rivers of blood documentary last night. Interesting, you forget how virulent the racism actually was and how far we have come.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Darn. That's the trouble with tv - there are so few progs I actually want to watch that I miss ones that I do because I never noticed or forgot them. Oh - I Player. I'll go and check :)

I was aware that things had been bad and that the Police were straightforwardly racist but have generally regarded it as a strength of the UK system that these issues were addressed and to a large extent resolved. Not completely resolved - I'm not sure that fallible humans can ever manage that - but certainly improved greatly.

The curious thing is that there have been black people here from the early days of the slave trade because not all were sold in America, a few were brought back and a legal case eventually settled the fact that slavery was not possible in England. For a time it was fashionable for ladies to have a "blackamoor" child as a page. What generally happened to these people when they grew up I don't know but I have heard one rather lovely story about one, who was educated by his mistress and set himself up as a coal merchant with the name Mr Cole. He had a successful business and bought a house, had servants and was a success by any standards.

Many served in the Royal Navy, which wasn't fussy about where it got men, and some were promoted though never to officer rank. They were however in command of white men and that was backed by navy discipline and the shipmate culture.

There are hints that some of the early Christians were at the least very dusky. I think St Theodosius - one of the early saints anyway - was from North Africa and I believe that a facial reconstruction done on a skull from an early monastic graveyard somewhere in England turned out to be *****id...! edit: blimey. can't say that word at all??? Ok, of stereotypical black African features. (!!!)

I wonder as well if the fact that there have been 4 nations (or more) squabbling in these islands for 2,000 years actually helps when there's a will to peace. There's experience there of how to get along if we want to. And lots of how not to, which is just as important. Current events are a good example of how not to. Honestly, if brexiters had been invited to set up a situation where Scotland was encouraged to leave the UK and a practical method of doing it they couldn't have done better than they are. Hmm. Perhaps I can add smuggling to possible sources of income if I move to the Borders. It's traditional after all. Cattle reiving might be a bit of a stretch, at least until I'm settled in and know the country. ;)

My friends are back from NZ where they had a great time and were looking into the possibilities of moving but it's not on. Not practical for him and she's doing really well at work with promotion and very senior managers arguing over who gets her so it needs something big to pull her away. Fairly brexit proof as well since she number crunches for pension companies (now manages other number crunchers) with a side salad of fraud detection. She has explained precisely what she does but neither I nor her husband understand it :)

edit: I'm not sure at present how a referendum rerun would go. The polling numbers I've seen suggest about 52-48 to Remain and that's not yet a big enough swing to be significant imo. Margins of error, questions about polling methods etc etc. One silver lining to the cloud of these drawn out negotiations its that it does give us a little time. As the reality becomes clearer and there are fewer brexiters through simple demographics next year might be when the penny drops and we're looking at the sort of numbers that make a 2nd referendum a big Remain win.

We live in interesting times.
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Post by gmc »

More than a hint Black christian saints make interesting reading, especially as they have been quietly whitened in the telling. Ask most catholics and they will be unaware they were any.

Black Catholic popes, saints and leaders

The two i like to cite most are St Augustine of hippo he of the nicene creed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

Augustine is recognized as a saint in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Christian Church, and the Anglican Communion and as a preeminent Doctor of the Church. He is also the patron of the Augustinians. His memorial is celebrated on 28 August, the day of his death. Augustine is the patron saint of brewers, printers, theologians, the alleviation of sore eyes, and a number of cities and dioceses.[5] Many Protestants, especially Calvinists and Lutherans, consider him to be one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace.[6][7][8] Lutherans, and Martin Luther in particular, have held Augustine in preeminence (after the Bible and St. Paul). Luther himself was, from 1505 to 1521, a member of the Order of the Augustinian Eremites.


And St Maurice the patron saint of soldiers who gave his name to san moritz. Noce man quite happily slaightered pagans when told to do so but refused to slaughter christians.

Wouldn't say racism wasn't always there but you can almost trace it's present form as christians had to find ways to justify black slavery by convincing themselves god made black people inferior, children of ham and all that.

If it wasn't race it would probably be something else but most brexiteers and certainly farage aim it at european immigration because they know being open about their racism against black and asian people would be a harder sell. Still some of the comments about east europeans in particular echo nazi propoganda. Come to that watch the rhetoric as scotland goes for independence.

I find braxiteers have a small minded sad little view of the world they mock the prospects for multiculturalism but offer little as a replacement.

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