The problem with the English

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gmc
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The problem with the English

Post by gmc »

Worth a read I think. No it's not from the only pro independence paper in scotland

The problem with the English: England doesn’t want to be just another member of a team | Latest Brexit news and top stories - The New European

Hence the paradox that the political party that exists to express fear of the EU represents itself as an Independence Party for the United Kingdom, but its entire affective vocabulary, its cultural, historical, and mythical points of reference are English, and it has virtually no following in Scotland or Northern Ireland: in the 2015 general election UKIP won 14% of the vote in England, but only 2.6% in Northern Ireland and 1.6% in Scotland.


The referendum vote does not deserve to be respected because, as an outgrowth of English narcissism, it is itself disrespectful of others, of our allies, partners, neighbours, friends, and, in many cases, even relatives. Like resentful ruffians uprooting the new trees in the park and trashing the new play area, millions of English, the lager louts of Europe, voted for Brexit in an act of geopolitical vandalism.
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Night Watchman
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Post by Night Watchman »

" millions of English, the lager louts of Europe, voted for Brexit in an act of geopolitical vandalism."

A tad antagonistic. Anglophobia seems alive and well.
Clodhopper
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Post by Clodhopper »

There's people like me who accept that the Empire ended before I was born - long before I was born - and have no expectations on that basis and are usually but not always Remain voters. For us, the special thing about the UK has always been that we are an association of four nations and the EU was just an extension of that sense. I have relatives in one and family legend says we originate in another...

Brexiters aren't like that, don't have that sense, and are the people other nations rightly object to. Usually no issue can unite them, but a good lie from skilled deceivers is far more effective than I had realised, since it got a lot of left wing people to vote for a far right project and insist to this day they didn't.
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

Clodhopper;1518422 wrote: There's people like me who accept that the Empire ended before I was born - long before I was born - and have no expectations on that basis and are usually but not always Remain voters. For us, the special thing about the UK has always been that we are an association of four nations and the EU was just an extension of that sense. I have relatives in one and family legend says we originate in another...

Brexiters aren't like that, don't have that sense, and are the people other nations rightly object to. Usually no issue can unite them, but a good lie from skilled deceivers is far more effective than I had realised, since it got a lot of left wing people to vote for a far right project and insist to this day they didn't.


Why is it that Remainers always refer to Brexit as a Right Wing thing. You should recall that both Labour AND Tory took the Official Policy of Remain, with BOTH sides campaigning to Remain. However, in spite of all that campaigning & illegal Remain Propaganda being published at the expense of the Taxpayer the majority of the public still voted to Leave. Doesn't that indicate how out of touch BOTH sides were with the Public view.

Remainers always complain about their views, as a minority, not being heard when demanding a 2nd Referendum after the first one didn't go their way. Well what about the views of the majority not being listened to if they were to bow to those demands? You can't have it both ways.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Brexit is backed by the fascists such as the group Trump retweeted. There's no evidence of a Remain supporting fascist group. All fascists seem to support brexit and it makes sense for them since the EU does not allow suppression of the freedom of the Press or gov't control of the judiciary, for example. Poland in trouble over this sort of thing now. The leaders of the brexit movement in Parliament are from the far right of the tory party. Davis, Johnson, Gove - all right wing tories. Then we have the right wing tory press - all pro brexit. Find me a Remain right wing mainstream paper. The Guardian is left wing and pro-Remain. The racists all voted brexit by definition because they are not going to vote for a multicultural multiracial organisation like the EU. So we have brexit backed by the far right of the tories, the far left of labour, the fascists and the racists. It happens that the far right of the tory party are in control of brexit (and the government to a very large extent) So I refer to it as a right wing thing because it is being run by right wingers for far right wing purposes and these people are doing everything they can to get control of the process of converting EU law - 49 years of it - to English law which would allow them to rewrite that law to suit their far right purposes. That's Employment Law, Health and Safety, Holidays, Working Time and so on.

It's not a case of they could do this or might do this, they are doing it now. They have the power to rewrite EU law coming into English law without consulting Parliament. Every government minister has the power to rewrite EU law as suits the minister best, come brexit. That's Hunt in Health. Yippee. Brexit doesn't have to be a right wing project but it is, because it's being run and backed by the far right. Davis is far right. Johnson is far right. Fox is far right.

UKIP was infiltrated by the BNP as we know - Farage is up Trump's bum - he's not left wing or even moderate right if he's there. The main popular brexit group - UKIP - was infiltrated by the BNP and led by far right people: Farage, Banks, that sort.

It is true that the extreme left also want brexit since they could probably not put their economic reforms into place under EU rules. As things have turned out it's the rolling eyed loons on the far right of the tory party who have ended up running brexit. People like Rees-Mogg, and Redwood, Duncan-Smith and Hunt running the brexit government. This gov't has far right people in the brexit posts, brexit is backed by the fascists and the racists, the right wing press and a load of people who thought voting for this would somehow result in a non far right outcome instead of a low tax low service offshore state. No NHS worth the name, ditto pension, ditto benefits. Work the hours and under the conditions your employers sets or starve. Don't get sick, it's expensive. Oh, jobs have all gone from your area as companies leave as we leave the single market and you take a 10 to 17% cut in revenue depending which area you are outside London (leaked gov't figures). What services in your areas do you want to give up to make up the shortfall?

Oh and incidentally that's me quoting a government forecast (10-17%). If it's wrong I'm not lying, just wrong. That's the Remain situation regarding the campaign: Mostly what we said is pretty much being borne out by events - brexit WILL be economically devastating for no gain except this sovereignty brexiters suddenly claim to find so important which we will be immediately giving away to other countries since every trade deal - every agreement between States - is a dilution of your right to act as you wish, aka sovereignty. Quoting a forecast and being wrong is one thing; claiming that we can have our cake and eat it isn't a government forecast it's either incredibly stupid or an outright lie. Ditto claiming that negotiating a trade deal would be easy - the easiest ever, according to Gove, iirc. Ditto claiming we hold all the cards and that brexit would be easy and we'd all be freer and better off. Lies, lies, lies, or incredibly, appallingly stupid. With the exception of Davis, these are not people that stupid. I say they lied and knew it. They set out to deceive and knew it. Heck, Johnson was just positioning himself for a leadership bid and doesn't even believe in brexit! The end justifies the means...for fascists.

For Heaven's sake, it's not as if Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Redwood, IDS and Davis have suddenly appeared from nowhere: they fronted the Leave Campaign, with Farage. Everyone knew they were pro brexit and they were GOING to run brexit if brexit won since the tories already had a majority and no need to call an election. May actually choosing to have an election was unexpected, as well as backfiring. Even so they are STILL running brexit.

And there's the connection with US far right charities like that Cambridge Analytics, or Banks' illegal bot farm, or the whistleblower claiming BeLeave was a cheat to raise and/or launder extra money for the Leave Campaign. Let's not forget the spike in race hate crime that happened just after the referendum results were known as your fellow brexiters got out there and committed race hate crimes and murdered Jo Cox.

As for leaving, we are going to, unless it can be legally and democratically stopped. If we have a 2nd referendum and it goes the Remain way that is democratic. If we Leave I may well do the same and leave you to fester in the hell you have created. You know Fox will sign any trade deal whatever and claim it as a triumph, backed by all those far right newspapers. Every one we know of so far has said increased freedom of movement is a top demand in return for a deal.

In short, I call it a far right movement because it is backed by the fascists, the racists, the far right of the tory party and is being run by the far right of the tory party. I do not think these people will deliver a socialist brexit. There are left wing brexiters but they aren't running brexit and have no influence on the outcome.

Minorities should not be pushed too far or there is always trouble. That's especially true when there is very small difference in numbers between the majority and the minority. In this case what was it? 4% We're not talking 70-30, we're talking 52-48. So if you want support from brexit for Remainers we have to have something we CAN support and we can't support hard brexit. Since it has apparently been ruled out that we do anything but leave completely I see nothing to support. So I don't support it. Since I believe it is an unmitigated disaster I oppose it since I do not wish to see the much more widespread poverty, the degradation of our health and the devastation of our country, especially the rural areas, which brexit will bring.

The interesting matter in parliament is that there are some in many parties who are showing signs of putting country ahead of party and attacking the abuses inherent in brexit. Whether they become an organised grouping who will act is another thing. Lord Adonis, Anna Soubry, Chuka Umunna will bear watching in this regard.

And I haven't even started on Putin. Why is it so many brexiters are apologists for him?
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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1518423 wrote: Why is it that Remainers always refer to Brexit as a Right Wing thing. You should recall that both Labour AND Tory took the Official Policy of Remain, with BOTH sides campaigning to Remain. However, in spite of all that campaigning & illegal Remain Propaganda being published at the expense of the Taxpayer the majority of the public still voted to Leave. Doesn't that indicate how out of touch BOTH sides were with the Public view.

Remainers always complain about their views, as a minority, not being heard when demanding a 2nd Referendum after the first one didn't go their way. Well what about the views of the majority not being listened to if they were to bow to those demands? You can't have it both ways.


Excuse me, it's the Leave side that are being pulled up for illegal spending in their election campaign.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Bryn Mawr;1518445 wrote: Excuse me, it's the Leave side that are being pulled up for illegal spending in their election campaign.


TWO whistle blowers on this now? The one with pink hair who is in front of the Electoral Commission and the outed gay who has turned up with a similar story? This really stinks. Provable? Dunno.

I'm torn on this. On the one hand there's the fact they have blown the whistle and are giving evidence of serious election malpractice; on the other is that they WORKED for brexit and that puts them high up my list of Who Gets Loaded into the Trebuchet and Fired into the Lake.
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gmc
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The problem with the English

Post by gmc »

History seems to be repeating itself.

Madrid has carried out a coup – and it directly affects Scotland | George Kerevan | The National

ON August 13, 1940, Lluis Companys, the exiled president of the Catalan Republic, was arrested in occupied France by German security forces, on a warrant issued by the Francoist government in Madrid. Companys was deported to Spain where he was tortured, then put on trial (for a whole hour) on charges of “rebellion”.

He was shot by firing squad, the highest-ranking, incumbent elected politician executed during the Second World War. To this day, no Spanish government has annulled this iniquitous verdict or any others of a similar nature, far less put any Francoist on trial.

Yesterday, the exiled, deposed president of Catalonia, Carles Puigdemont, was arrested by German security forces, on a European warrant issued by the neo-Francoist Popular Party government in Madrid.

Like Companys before him, Puigdemont is (literally) charged with “rebellion”, for organising a democratic referendum on Catalan independence last October.


Except this time the fascists are in the UK and takibng over the government. We have a parliamentary democracy sadly many brexiteers don't seem to understand that means our MP's supposedly have the final say and referenda are advisory not mandatory. I can see scotland having another referendum in the teeth of opposition from westminster.

I was curious to see what you thought not being english myself or indeed perhaps not even anglo-saxon. The UK has always been multicultural and that is arguably one of it's greatest strengths what annoys me about the brexiteers is the narrowness of their vision and fear of the world and the future they exhibit despite all the patriotic rhetoric they spout.
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

Bryn Mawr;1518445 wrote: Excuse me, it's the Leave side that are being pulled up for illegal spending in their election campaign.


It was the Remain side that were blatantly publishing Remain Propaganda at the Tax Payer's expense.

I received a copy, and despite claiming to be an "Information Booklet", it was as unbiased as a Party Election Leaflet.

It was later ruled that this booklet broke the rules laid down & was deemed illegal. This, however, was, of course, brushed under the carpet.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... city-blitz

As for the Far Right backing Brexit - of course they do, but that's because they have their own Racist Agenda. The previous post implies that everybody who is pro Brexit is so because they are Far Right & accordingly Racist. Well, I for one take affront to that. I am very Left of Centre, a total Corbynist, far from being Racist (in fact, most of those I socialise with happen to be Muslim), and am very much Pro-Brexit. The Remainers like to put across the image that to be Pro-Brexit is to be Racist & that the two are one & the same. Well they are most definitely not. You argument is on a par with the one that says "I have a white dog. My neighbour has a black dog. Ny neighbour's black dog has fleas. Therefore he has fleas because he is black & all therefore all black dogs have fleas".

As far as Right Wing Media is concerned. Nearly all the Media is owned by the same few oligarchical "Patriot" owners who live offshore as Tax Exiles, paying absolutely nothing into the UK Treasury. They are bound to be Right Wing. They are the epitome of the Tory Fat Cats.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Your vote empowered racism. Police figures prove it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 29551.html

That's the short version. You can look out the official Home Office version if you like...

You personally, may have moderate reasonable reasons for being anti EU to the extent of leaving it, hard though I find that to believe (moderate and reasonable for leaving? Come on...). Unfortunately your personally innocent beliefs coincide with the beliefs of a lot of very nasty people, from the far right of the tory party and further right. They are running brexit, not you. None of you moderate leavers have any effect other than to further the far right agenda because your moderate brexit never existed except in the agendas of Cambridge Analytics. You aren't getting the brexit you dreamed of, you are getting the one of the far right of the tory party and worse and you are continuing to support it, like a German in the 1920's. Next you'll be telling me it's my patriotic duty to support brexit.

The media oligarchs backed brexit. All the populists did. Lied through their teeth like good graduates from the Rupert Murdoch School of Exuberant Journalists. Big money backs brexit. For them, not us.
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

I have yet to see moderate reasonable reasons for leaving the eu. In my experience the whole brexit argument devolves down to" just because" and I don't like foreigners. I would accept the result if a second referendum still wanted to leave, I don;t think it will which is priobably why the brexiteers will do their best to stop it. Fargafe stated before the refrerendum that they would not accept a close remain vote, poor soul he might lose his eu pension if the uk refuses to pay any divorce bill. Unemployed no pension you have to feel for him.
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FourPart
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Once again the Remainer's argument comes down to accusing anyone who thinks differently to them as being a Racist. It is the same sort of logic that accuses Jeremy Corbyn of being an Anti-Semite because he condemns the actions of Israel & anyone that supports them. Just because the Israelis are Jewish, we are expected to belief that opposition to Israel is opposition against Jews. Does that also make him Anti-Islam for being opposed to the Human Rights (or lack of) record of the Saudis? Of course not. It is the Propogandist's art to find a negative point, then to turn it around & spin it in order to do some mud slinging & make sure as many people as possible get covered, ergo Because some Brexiteers are Racist, therefore ALL Brexiteers are Racist.

As for refering to Home Office figures for evidence... Oh, of course, it's April 1st, isn't it? Or are you REALLY that gullible. Home Office figures show that more money is being put into Police, Schools, Public Services & NHS, yet everyday observations show the total opposite to be true.
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Post by Clodhopper »

You voted brexit and race hate crime jumped. You haven't commented on that. You can't face responsibility for even that minor part of what you have done. Get it into your head that what you voted for was a movement led by far right people both inside and even more outside Parliament. You are going to get a far right brexit whether you voted for it or not, assuming our MPs are too gutless to do anything about it.

Pray to whatever God you like that brexit is a huge success, against all reasonable opinion because if it is anything like as horrible as I expect, anywhere NEAR as devastating then anyone who voted brexit will need to become invisible to avoid the crap that will head in their direction.

Crawl back up Davis' bum where you are clearly comfortable because I haven't heard any criticism from you about anything brexit related, or the disgusting lies they tell.

Gove said there was no question of leaving the single market when we left the EU. LIAR

Johnson said we could have our cake and eat it. LIAR

It's not a lie to say that Johnson - one of the main leaders of brexit - has said he is favour of privatising the NHS on the grounds people would value it more if they had to pay for it - Safe in his hands, but only for those who can pay.

I have come to despise brexiters and the more I interact with them, the more I despise their stupidity. This one doesn't even understand Office of National Statistics figures. Thinks they are government propaganda rather than the best figures that can be got and the ones government uses as a basis on which to set policy. Not propaganda, as close to the truth as the people in the ONS can get. Buuut if they contradicts this brexiter's beliefs then they must be lies...logic, innit.

And you know what? If brexit is the disaster I and many many others expect I don't think we'll find all the brexiters blaming themselves for the mess we are in. They'll blame Remainers and probably the BBC and the Governor of the Bank of England too, since they already have been blamed for the failure of brexit by a good number of brexiters.

Not a tory, oh no, but votes for far right tory projects thinking they are left wing...I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. But it seems he will be by the far right tory brexit he supports so much.

God if there was something positive about brexit - anything of substance at all to look forward to about it I wouldn't be so angry. But there is nothing positive to look forward to. No brexiter has ever managed to come up with a positive reason for doing this. The very best they can do is to say everything will be better when we leave the EU. They claim we'll get lots of good trade deals easily, that negotiations with the EU will be the easiest ever and that we'll all feel much better when we have nothing to do with the EU except a really great trade deal. They've swallowed all the far right lies and believe them.

Brexit isn't a racist movement - although there was a spike in race hate crime as brexiters went out and celebrated their referendum result and a fascist brexiter murdered Jo Cox. Somehow that doesn't count. Presumably that's police propaganda figures.No sign of racism in brexit there. As long as you ignore what actually happened:

There was a sharp increase in the number of racially or religiously aggravated offences recorded by the police following the EU Referendum. The number of racially or religiously aggravated offences recorded by the police in July 2016 was 41% higher than in July 2015.


taken from:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... sb1116.pdf

I assume based on previous form that you will claim these figures are false because they are official government figures, so the brexit government is producing propaganda against itself...

God I hate loathe and despise brexit and everything about it: the people involved, the ideas, the cowardice, the lack of understanding, the race hate and the way the brexiters are making the far right sooo happy as they ram their agenda through.
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

Your entire argument still appears to be based on accusing everyone who voted to Leave as being a Far Right Racist. Well, sunshine. That means that the UK must be a Far Right Racist country, seeing as 52% of its electorate voted that way - and even the Far Right Tories done't come close to that level of support in their own 'safe' seats.

I presume you are also one of those who accuse Jeremy of being Anti-Semitic because he opposes the Israeli regime of murder & terrorism.

You accuse someone of being Racist when they deny being so. Your valisation for such accusation being the fact that they deny it. That is the mindset of a dyed in the wool Remainer.

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Post by Clodhopper »

Please comment on the increase in race hate crime that was a result of the brexit vote. You've ducked it and any other inconvenient questions continuously.

Do you approve of the leadership of the brexit movement? They are all far right tories. Why the hell did you vote for them, then, if you claim to be left wing? Did you really think voting for a movement fronted by Farage, Johnson, Davis, Fox, Banks, Murdoch and Dacre was going to be anything other than far right given ALL the above are far right?

I'm not really bothered whether I've called you a racist or not: I see little difference between a racist and a supporter of a racist movement. And you ARE a brexiter. So you openly support a movement whose members murder its opponents and is supported by all the racists in the country because racists won't vote for a multiracial multicultural organisation like the EU by definition (at least, not those intelligent enough to successfully complete the ballot form). And you voted with them. That makes you a racist or a supporter of racism by your actions. You may not like it but that's what you voted for, that's what you are. Anyone who voted brexit took a big step towards becoming a racist, if they weren't there already, even if they didn't know it.

You are like a Hitler voter claiming they weren't Nazi.

You also voted to withdraw from our EU trade deal and negotiate a worse one, you rely on Fox to make us great free trade deals with Trump, China, India who KNOW we are desperate and will negotiate to get the best deal for THEM they can. And we KNOW beyond doubt that Trump dislikes free trade, wanted the UK out of the EU, and is a liar, an abuser of people, women in particular, and a completely corrupt lump of ****. China is a dictatorship and in India you get nowhere without bribes (I like India, have visited several times, but no country is perfect...) You must think the EU is much like them. You are wrong. It is nothing like them.

WHY DID YOU VOTE FOR BREXIT? Did you think you would be richer? Did you think it would make you more free? I've heard brexiters saying they voted brexit to save the NHS maybe you aren't that deluded but you must have thought there was something good about brexit or you wouldn't have voted for it. What was it about brexit that seemed so good to you even when it is CLEARLY a far right movement because ALL the people in charge of it are tories, 90% of them far right like Johnson, Fox, Davis - the chief ****heads running brexit.

And of course the racism is only part of it. You also voted to make the country poorer, to reduce our freedoms, to make our Foreign Policy less effective, to increase our food prices (have you noticed you now only get 5 apples in a pack for the same price as you used to get 6? Nothing to do with the decline in the £ post the referendum, of course) and to probably break up the NHS and indeed the UK itself: There's a good chance Scotland will leave the UK and I wouldn't be surprised if NI did as well, given they have the DUP running the show. That's what you ACTUALLY voted for.

edit: In fairness when I think about it it is now 20 years since I was last in India. Things may be different though I wouldn't bet on it myself.
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FourPart
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Post by FourPart »

I have not evaded any issues whatsoever. Yes, there are those who are Racist who are also Brexiters. There are also Racists who are also Remainers. However, there are also those who are NOT Racist who are also pro Brexit. Although Jeremy Corbyn followed the Party Policy on compaigning for Remain, his EU Sceptic views are well known. Are you now accusing him of being being a Far Right Racist?

As for prices going up - have you noticed that prices have been going up & relative wages have been going down since the Tories got into Government? Have you also noticed that until this time next year we are still IN the EU. As far as Trade goes, nothing have changed yet, which shows that these negative changes have nothing to do with the EU, be it in or out.

As for Crime being on the increase, have you noticed that this directly correlates with the Tories slashing Police Budgets? Just what does that have to do with Brexit? As for Racially motivated crimes - the vast majority of these are Anti-Islamic. Just how many Islamic EU Member State countries are there at the moment?

The Public have seen the steady downward path of the EU & have had enough of it. THAT is the primary trigger for the change. Of course the Far Right are going to be the most likely to be pro Brexit. Nobody is denying that, but I hope that Far Right remains a very small minority. Both Tories & Labour officially supported Remain, yet more than half voted against it. That means that a sizeable number of people from BOTH sides voted against their own Party Policies.

Also, be honest, how many people do you know who voted either way were swayed by any of the campaigning? Or had they already made up their minds before the campaigning even started in earnest?

The campaign, on both sides was a shambles. It was based on Scaremongering & Speculation. Plus, I agree, there was a lot of Racism included in it - which I totally disassociate myself with. The fact is, though, that I find your accusations of my being Racist simply because I excercised my Democratic Right to vote to Leave highly offensive & a display of your ignorance. Such accusations are beneath you.
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I AM SO FED UP WITH BREXIT AND ALL THE BICKERING, TUB THUMPING, FINGER-POINTING, FIST SHAKING, BLAMING, DIRT DIGGING. VISCIOUS ARGUMENTS, THREATS, AND HATE-FILLED AND VITRIOLIC RANTINGS.

There was a referendum. The general public voted to leave Europe. There is no future in arguing and blaming and accusing.. Just flamin' well accept that result and get on with it, whether you voted to leave or stay, it is done now. If another referendum is forced, then that just proves how dictatorial this pathetic country has become. I used to be proud to be British, now, because of several different things, I am DISGUSTED. Are you not aware that the EU is sinking and breaking down ? Are you aware that most of the world is laughing at Britain for one reason or another ?

I'm afraid we need strong leadership and I cannot see any chance of that in the future and the present certainly is not strong.
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gmc
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Post by gmc »

G#Gill;1518652 wrote: I AM SO FED UP WITH BREXIT AND ALL THE BICKERING, TUB THUMPING, FINGER-POINTING, FIST SHAKING, BLAMING, DIRT DIGGING. VISCIOUS ARGUMENTS, THREATS, AND HATE-FILLED AND VITRIOLIC RANTINGS.

There was a referendum. The general public voted to leave Europe. There is no future in arguing and blaming and accusing.. Just flamin' well accept that result and get on with it, whether you voted to leave or stay, it is done now. If another referendum is forced, then that just proves how dictatorial this pathetic country has become. I used to be proud to be British, now, because of several different things, I am DISGUSTED. Are you not aware that the EU is sinking and breaking down ? Are you aware that most of the world is laughing at Britain for one reason or another ?

I'm afraid we need strong leadership and I cannot see any chance of that in the future and the present certainly is not strong.


If you want to accept the ndecline of this country to third world status go right ahead thendo so but don't criticise those who won't. The general public did not vote to leave the yes vote amount to less than a third of the total electorate. If there are three people in a car and the driver wants to go off a cliff do you really think the other two should just accept it? The referendum was forced on us because of internal party politics by a government that most people who botherd to vote actively voted against.

Two of the countries in the united kingdom voted to reamian are you seriously suggesting they should remain in such a toxic union?

In the 79n referendum I voted to remain I voted for independence in the last one and I will be voting for independence in the next. Englands is screwed and you have no oine to blame but yourselves.
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The problem with the English

Post by G#Gill »

gmc, I originally voted to not join the European Common Market because I could see that the so-called 'Common Market' would not be just for trading purposes. I could see the writing on the wall that Europe would become political and would 'rule' all the member nations and bring about laws (I believe there were over 600 new laws brought in by Europe last year - where we, the British people, had no say in whether we want these new laws or not ! ). This is European democracy ? Originally we were supposed to be a member of the European Common Market, but all along the intention was to make the European Union into a Federation, and very little to do with just trading ! We are being stripped of our identity. If that is what you want then I wish you the best of luck.

As regards the referendum to Stay/Leave the EU, we all know how lazy a lot of the voters are - just check the votes for the General Election !l So do not throw that rubbish in my face. As for criticising you or anybody else for wanting to 'remain' - I was not criticising I was just venting my anger at all the awful arguments, rows, and hate-filled vitriol concerning b****y Brexit. I've had a belly full. It's like an open sore that everybody seems to be scratching at. It's like a nightmare, everywhere you turn there is nastiness about Brexit - TV, radio, newspapers, flaming social internet sites. It is a pity that the vote turn out was not very big, but as I've already said, it is not much better for the General Election or Local Council Elections, so live with it. I am. No I'm not saying how I voted, but at least I accept that a legal vote was organised and carefully counted and the result was made public. After all, I would like to think that the British voting public and the British method of voting is legal, well supervised and above corruption. I would like to think that we can show our voting system to the world and demonstrate that it is fair and legal. I made my vote. I have to accept the result. That is it - get on with it. I'm just so p****d off with so much aggression, I thought we were more civilised than that.

By the way, gmc, the so-called decline of this country was being developed many years before all the hoo ha of Brexit started. In fact, we became almost a third world country well before moves were started to get a referendum to leave or stay in Europe - that was probably one of the main reasons why a referendum was pushed for.
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Clodhopper
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

The problem with the English

Post by Clodhopper »

The decline of this country from its peak of power in the 1830s or thereabouts was due to the rise of the US and Germany. This process was massively accelerated by the 2 WWs which impoverished then pretty much bankrupted us. We only finished paying for BOTH wars in the last few years. By the 1970s when we joined we were the basket case of Europe as appalling managers and bloody-minded Unions with a cut off nose to spite face attitude destroyed our industry. After 40 years in the EU we have just got to a situation where we are not borrowing more than we earn every day - Austerity did at least achieve its objective, albeit 2 years late. We have just got to a position where we have sorted some of the long term issues that were causing us problems - our day to day debt is no longer increasing. If we were going to stay in the EU we would be well set for a period of prosperity, with Gov't for the first time I can recall, having some GOOD money to spend (NOT from selling our family silver).

However, 17 million people voted to brexit. The £ dropped, investment into business has fallen and we are not growing economically as strongly as we would if we hadn't brexited: Result: NO more money for Gov't, in fact less. Higher interest rates on our debts because our credit rating is dropping and all the pain we suffered with Austerity is for nothing. We'll see nothing, just we'll take on slightly less extra debt.

Brexiters are responsible for brexit and its consequences. Led by right wing tories, backed by fascists and racists and a lot of dupes who seem to believe we'll be better off as a result of ditching the excellent trade deal we had with the EU - with the opt outs we had it can be argued it was actually a better deal than any other EU member of our economic size.

Everything about brexit is a lie. The rest of the world is laughing at us for brexiting. The exceptions are people like Trump and Putin. Trump says he is going to offer us a great deal bigly. I'm sure you like and respect Trump. Putin also wanted us out. You've made them both very happy.

(Incidentally you posted just after the referendum that you had voted brexit for some peace and quiet. Not going to happen, since many of us object to the rape and devastation of our country for the benefit of US corporations and the very rich. If you don't like the consequences of your vote you have only yourself and your leaders like Farage, Fox, Davis and Johnson to blame: they told the lies, you went along with them)

Survey just out said 82% of those asked did not want to import chlorinated chicken and hormone injected beef. Fox says it's great. He's the one negotiating the trade deals...

If brexit makes us all rich and doesn't turn us into Singapore in the North Sea in terms of rights then I'll shut up. Other than that I will NOT quietly accept what is happening as a result of a corrupt campaign interfered with by foreign powers, illegally funded and fronted by far right liars.
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Clodhopper
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

The problem with the English

Post by Clodhopper »

I have not evaded any issues whatsoever. Yes, there are those who are Racist who are also Brexiters. There are also Racists who are also Remainers. However, there are also those who are NOT Racist who are also pro Brexit. Although Jeremy Corbyn followed the Party Policy on compaigning for Remain, his EU Sceptic views are well known. Are you now accusing him of being being a Far Right Racist?

As for prices going up - have you noticed that prices have been going up & relative wages have been going down since the Tories got into Government? Have you also noticed that until this time next year we are still IN the EU. As far as Trade goes, nothing have changed yet, which shows that these negative changes have nothing to do with the EU, be it in or out.

As for Crime being on the increase, have you noticed that this directly correlates with the Tories slashing Police Budgets? Just what does that have to do with Brexit? As for Racially motivated crimes - the vast majority of these are Anti-Islamic. Just how many Islamic EU Member State countries are there at the moment?

The Public have seen the steady downward path of the EU & have had enough of it. THAT is the primary trigger for the change. Of course the Far Right are going to be the most likely to be pro Brexit. Nobody is denying that, but I hope that Far Right remains a very small minority. Both Tories & Labour officially supported Remain, yet more than half voted against it. That means that a sizeable number of people from BOTH sides voted against their own Party Policies.

Also, be honest, how many people do you know who voted either way were swayed by any of the campaigning? Or had they already made up their minds before the campaigning even started in earnest?

The campaign, on both sides was a shambles. It was based on Scaremongering & Speculation. Plus, I agree, there was a lot of Racism included in it - which I totally disassociate myself with. The fact is, though, that I find your accusations of my being Racist simply because I excercised my Democratic Right to vote to Leave highly offensive & a display of your ignorance. Such accusations are beneath you.


Please provide evidence of Remain racists. I've seen plenty for Brexit racists up to and including murder and the huge spike in race related crime after the brexit vote. Not seen any so far for Remain racists. Please provide examples. I think you'll struggle to find many racists who voted FOR a multiracial organisation.

I know nothing about the Corbyn anti-Semitism thing and have no view on it other than it sounds like a genuine issue somewhere in the Labour Party which is being used to smear more widely by the tories. It is entirely possible to dislike Israel's policies without disliking Judaism. I do note that Corbyn was at least officially on the Remain side despite being widely believed to be a brexiter. The far left liked brexit because they'd struggle to impose their economic reforms in the EU given the idea of a level playing field and no government subsidies for industry except in extreme and special cases. I will grant that in the long term, say 50 years, I think a Corbyn far left brexit would be less horrible than a far right one though worse for the first 30 years or so. At least. Business doesn't like brexit even under the Bankers' Party (the tories). It will react very badly to a far left brexit.

Prices have been going up for centuries. Usually by a percent or two per year (less than a percent annually in the first few centuries). 5 apples for the same price as 6 is around a 17% increase IN ONE HIT. That's brexit for you.

I am talking about an increase in racially motivated crime. Do not try to confuse the issue by talking about crime in general. It is very likely crime in general is helped by a 20,000 cut in police numbers but since the areas with the greatest increases in crime rates do not, apparently, correlate with the areas with most police cuts there is likely more to it than just police numbers. Nor does it explain a 40% jump in racial and religiously motivated crime (the two are reported together in the report I saw) but brexit does explain it: Lots of brexit racists out there celebrating after the vote led to a big jump in the crime figures. 40% or so compared with the previous June, when we had not voted to brexit. That's a lot.

"The public" has not seen a "steady downward path" from the EU. 17 mill brexiters did but the other 48 mill (minus ineligible voters and assuming our population is about 65 mill) didn't see enough to vote for brexit and 16 mill of those saw enough to vote against it. Saying "the public" wanted to leave the EU means we pretty much all did. That's a stinking brexiter lie. Barely 1/4 of the public wanted brexit enough to vote for it. That means the public taken as a whole, didn't want brexit enough to vote for it. Therefore brexit is against the expressed wishes of the public as a whole since only around 1/4 actually expressed a wish for it. 3/4s didn't want it enough to vote for it. And you have the gall, the dishonesty, to claim the public want brexit?

If you don't want to be considered a racist I suggest you stop supporting a racist movement. Otherwise you are like someone saying, "Yes, I voted for Hitler, but I completely disassociate myself from the Concentration camps, the anti-Semitism and the racist murders. Nothing to do with me." Bull**** then, bull**** now.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

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