Tory MP's have the right priorities

A forum to discuss local issues in the UK.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

UK passports could return to blue post-Brexit at a cost of £490 million - Top Stories - The New European

“Our British identity was slowly but surely being submerged into an artificial European one that most Brits felt increasingly unhappy about.

“The humiliation of having a pink European Union passport will now soon be over and the United Kingdom nationals can once again feel pride and self-confidence in their own nationality when travelling, just as the Swiss and Americans can do.”


:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

If only it wasn't so tragic.

meanwhile in the snp corner

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-sto ... _1_4873145

Choose Brexit. Choose making up numbers from thin air about the NHS and plastering them on the side of buses. Choose racist and xenophobic sentiments seeping out from some corners of the Leave campaign.

“Choose hate crime rising by over 40% and LGBT hate crime by 150% in England and Wales following the Brexit vote. Choose taking the people of our nations to the polls on one of the most important issues of a generation with nothing written down and no plan.

“Choose ignoring the interests of the people of Scotland and my constituents in Livingston despite the fact they voted overwhelmingly to Remain in the EU. Choose leaving the single market, risking 80,000 Scottish jobs within a decade and costing the people of Scotland an average of £2,000 a year in wages.

“Choose lowering Scotland’s GDP by more than £10 billion and Scotland’s exports by more than £5 billion. Choose vital EU worker status being under threat with widespread uncertainty to family, businesses, and the economy.

“Choose risking our international standing in the academic research and innovation communities as we lose access to funding, expertise, and people in the EU. Choose walking away from the European medicine association without any detail or thought of the impact.

“Choose the great Brexit power grab, taking back control of straight bananas. Choose returning to the Thatcher era of poverty and austerity. Choose the UK turning its back on Europe. These, Mr Speaker, are not the choices that the Scottish people made.”


Point to note she's not a remain MP she's SNP
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Clodhopper »

She got the nail straight on the head. Speaks for a fair few of us down here too.

Ah well. There's still hope that as the reality of the mess the brexiters have dropped us in becomes apparent some of them at least will have enough sense to realise they were duped and change their mind. £ down, inflation up, wages stagnating and woohoo! workers rights environmental protections and other red tape now exposed to the far right of the tory party and their well known compassion.

And for the country as a whole for the foreseeable future the choice is worse trade or MUCH worse trade conditions, combined with the fact that free movement of people seems to be a key demand of the Indians, for example, who Hammond is apparently talking to at present.

It's going to take a long time to comprehend how brexiters could have been so stupid. The ones that aren't racist thugs, that is. Beating up refugees at huge odds, murdering people etc. It's their agenda the brexiters have advanced.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

We'll be stupid if we let them get away with it. The temptation to punch those ignorant numpties trying to tell me we can't change our minds in a democracy is getting stronger all the time. How do UKIP would be MP's got interviewed on TV and appear on question time so much the snp have twenty times the number of votes they ever got not to mention 50 MP's in parliament - they are the third largest political party in westminster and the only half way articulate opposition to the tories. Labour have refused to work with the snp even where there is common ground against the tories and they wonder why they are almost dead in scotland. We are just not getting good political reporting at the moment.
User avatar
LarsMac
Posts: 12174
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:11 pm
Location: Far Out, Man

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by LarsMac »

So I can't help but wonder how all of this will reflect on travel in the next year or so. I was planning a trip for summer '18, and planned to take the wife on one of those river boats up the Rhine after a visit to the UK.

Sounds like by then, between Brexit, and The Trumpster's travel restrictions and Euro backlash, I may want to give this another thought or two.
“All it takes to get elected in twenty-first-century America is a mob of frightened sheep and a wolf with a nice smile,”
― Greg Bear, Darwin's Children
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6437
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by FourPart »

You could equally say that regarding matters of Europe, if the MEP seats were representative of the House of Commons, we woud currently have a UKIP Government. Every single episode of Question Time since before the Referendum has been primarily all about Brexit (which, quite frankly, I find is getting rather boring - nothing new is being said - just rehashing the same old stuff). This being so, doesn't it make sense that they should have regular representation from the leading MEP Party, which happens to be UKIP? Similarly, where the leading topic is to do with Scotland you would expect to see members from SNP.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

FourPart;1508096 wrote: You could equally say that regarding matters of Europe, if the MEP seats were representative of the House of Commons, we woud currently have a UKIP Government. Every single episode of Question Time since before the Referendum has been primarily all about Brexit (which, quite frankly, I find is getting rather boring - nothing new is being said - just rehashing the same old stuff). This being so, doesn't it make sense that they should have regular representation from the leading MEP Party, which happens to be UKIP? Similarly, where the leading topic is to do with Scotland you would expect to see members from SNP.


No we wouldn't UKIP have 12.6% of the total vote they even under PR wouldn't have enough seats to form a government the tories have around 36% they wopuldn't either we would have coalition government. I don't think you can really use european elections as a comparison people no matter how much it gladdens the heart of ukip supporters vote differently and even less bother with th eu elections than do the general elction. UKIP is the fascist party in all but name.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Clodhopper »

Sounds like by then, between Brexit, and The Trumpster's travel restrictions and Euro backlash, I may want to give this another thought or two.


Slightly bizarrely, it is probably a very good time to take a holiday here if you were thinking of it. The £ is low against the dollar and the trend remains downward, climate change means the weather is better if imo windier and although we are politically split there's no rioting or obvious trouble. Whether that will still be true if we really do brexit and it's anywhere near as bad as many of us fear is another question. Since it is generally accepted that brexit will make us poorer for a number of years at least (some brexiters believe everything will get better almost immediately) the place will probably look steadily seedier and more run down over the next few decades. At present I would say you are generally safer here than in the US with the ongoing mass shootings. In ten years time? No guarantees.

I think the Rhine riverboat is a great idea. Fantastic scenery (mostly!) and great places to visit and in addition you are travelling one of the great European borders and trade routes, plied by Roman barges and prehistoric log dugouts. It's hard to imagine more history in one valley, except possibly the Danube (currently thought to be the route into Europe of the first humans). On the other hand the boats look like floating rabbit hutches.

You could equally say that regarding matters of Europe, if the MEP seats were representative of the House of Commons, we woud currently have a UKIP Government.


If MEP seats were representative of the House of Commons we would have no UKIP MEPS - the only one would recently have defected. Possibly to be remembered for joining UKIP as the only rat to jump onto a sinking ship. (We can hope)

You think brexit boring? We haven't even started the negotiations: 2 years minimum. Then there is the transition period: anything from 1 day to 5 years at a guess. Then there's what? A decade while the consequences take effect and the we change in reaction to the new conditions - call it 50/50 whether that period is steadily better or worse. So there's anything from 2 to 17 years of brexit argument to come.

At the end of it I think we will be shorn of influence, an unattractive investment option except for sweatshops and very possibly without Scotland. I don't think the rest of the world is lining up to do trade deals with us - they are out to take advantage of our weak position. Under successive tory governments we have sold just about everything we can sell, ironically often to foreign governments (for example the French are part owners of Nissan and our new nuclear power station, along with the Chinese) and when we lose access to the single market and the customs union we cease to be the attractive gateway to the EU we have been, with our opt outs and special deals.

And do you think France, which owns (iirc) so much of our business, our water, our electricity, our transport and our nuclear power, is going to be more or less responsive to our concerns after we leave the EU?

Still, we can hope that once the EU have pounded us a bit in the early negotiations to make the point to other members that leaving is a bad idea we can hope they are not motivated by greed to dismember our economy. There's a brexiter argument that says they won't harm us because eg BMW sells 170,000 cars a year in the UK and they couldn't afford to lose those sales, forgetting that they won't lose many sales since the sort of people who buy new BMWs aren't going to be deterred by a few thousand extra pounds on the price tag. In fact, because the only clear beneficiaries of brexit are the already very rich who really like low tax low service environments because although the low tax bit applies to them the low service doesn't - they go private here or fly or buy in from abroad for better treatment - they might actually be buying more BMWs with their extra cash. The rest of us won't. Since the NHS looks likely to be an early casualty - tory brexiter MPs already have their knives out - we'll be wondering if we can afford private health insurance (if we're lucky).
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Bruv »

Cloddy old boy.................we are in the process of splitting from the EU....................get over it.

Saying that....................I voted to remain, pointing out all the possible problems isn't helping anything.

Now a starter for 10.......................Is there no upside to leaving ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

Bruv;1508117 wrote: Cloddy old boy.................we are in the process of splitting from the EU....................get over it.

Saying that....................I voted to remain, pointing out all the possible problems isn't helping anything.

Now a starter for 10.......................Is there no upside to leaving ?


A second scottish referndum is now going to happen.

It might politicise the populace enough that they take control back from the right wing fascists now ruining the country.

You will get a more manly colour of passport.

Nigel farage might get a knighthood hopefully uposetting enough people that the honours system gets scrapped
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6437
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by FourPart »

gmc;1508112 wrote: No we wouldn't UKIP have 12.6% of the total vote they even under PR wouldn't have enough seats to form a government the tories have around 36% they wopuldn't either we would have coalition government. I don't think you can really use european elections as a comparison people no matter how much it gladdens the heart of ukip supporters vote differently and even less bother with th eu elections than do the general elction. UKIP is the fascist party in all but name.
UKIP have 26.77% of UK seats. Labour have 24.74% & Tories have 23.31%. It may not be overall control, but it's the majority Party on the 1st Past the Post basis (which the HoC is). Surely that, in itself, says something about the public's opinion of the EU. They only get one seat in HoC (which they have no longer), yet take the majority of the EU seats on the basis of being the Party that wants to get the UK out of the EU (which they have achieved quite successfully, I might add).

Britain's representation in the European Parliament | Britain's Europe
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Clodhopper »

Bruv;1508117 wrote: Cloddy old boy.................we are in the process of splitting from the EU....................get over it.

Saying that....................I voted to remain, pointing out all the possible problems isn't helping anything.

Now a starter for 10.......................Is there no upside to leaving ?


Please tell me one. I'm struggling.

We aren't out yet and there's plenty of opportunity in the known two years alone for people to realise how stupid and harmful brexit is to us and to the EU. I haven't given up, and if the worst happens, that's when the campaign to rejoin starts. In my opinion the EU is the best future on offer and brexit and the crap associated only confirms that opinion. Just one example: blocs like the EU can stand up to multinationals; individual countries, unless huge, find it difficult. We've just parted our buttocks and said Roger!

I've seen enough of the racist far right that's behind so much of brexit to consider the movement rotten to its core, and that includes UKIP, no matter how shiny and happy the PR is. The reality is 20 kicking an Iranian Kurdish refugee. Brexiter dupes can rationalise it how they like but that is what they voted for. I won't stop opposing it.

And I don't want brexit to be a disaster. I just think the racist far right one we've got will be. You don't give up struggling as the cliff edge approaches, you redouble your efforts.

...possible problems...? They were possibly problems before the vote, now they are problems and if we brexit as seems likely they become crises. Honestly, it feels as if people have simply not woken up to the reality of what is happening.

...off to the allotment to Dig for Victory...

...here's a positive about brexit: I appreciate each lovely day more now, because the future looks bloody ugly.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Bruv »

I just can't see how being so totally anti helps.....now. The deal is done, we all voted, sucked in by the same politicians that promise the world every general election.

We are in the same boat we must all pull together or we will surely sink.

Remember I voted remain too.

And irony of irony about that Iranian racist attack, the perpetrators were mostly of West Indian descent, not your average right wing bad boy.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

Bruv;1508165 wrote: I just can't see how being so totally anti helps.....now. The deal is done, we all voted, sucked in by the same politicians that promise the world every general election.

We are in the same boat we must all pull together or we will surely sink.

Remember I voted remain too.

And irony of irony about that Iranian racist attack, the perpetrators were mostly of West Indian descent, not your average right wing bad boy.


No it's not we can change our mind and anyone who says differntly does not understand the way our democracy works. Another election a pro eu pary get elected and it can all change. Apart from anything else we live in a representative democracy the referendum was not legally binding but advisory. Give it enoughy time for the consequences of leaving the single market to sink in with the concomitant job loses rampant inflation and all the resdt and the only opnes still wanting tio leave will be the hardened brexiteers who9 donl;t have a brain cell amongst them. The leave campaign conned everybody give it time to sink in and stop believing the ninsense about how we can't change our mind.

Realistically we'll end up on bended knees trying to get back in just as we were in the 1970's. BHut I rather hope it will; just be england and wales trying tio get back in the celtic nations have carried the english for too long.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Clodhopper »

Bruv;1508165 wrote: I just can't see how being so totally anti helps.....now. The deal is done, we all voted, sucked in by the same politicians that promise the world every general election.

We are in the same boat we must all pull together or we will surely sink.

Remember I voted remain too.

And irony of irony about that Iranian racist attack, the perpetrators were mostly of West Indian descent, not your average right wing bad boy.


So what? They are just as capable of being corrupted as anyone else and just as susceptible to the lie that immigrants are taking their jobs, rather than taking jobs they can't or won't do.

I hear quite a bit about how brexit will fail if Remainers don't support it. What a despicable slimy attempt to shift blame from the people responsible for brexit: BREXITERS. The people who voted for it without any sort of plan, without even having LOOKED at the possible risks, as admitted by that twat Davis recently, the morons who claimed that it would result in 350 million a week for the NHS, THEY are responsible for brexit, NOT the people who voted against it. If the venture is so desperate that a lack of support from 16.8 million people out of 65 million who think it's a mindboggling stupid thing to do will guarantee it's failure, it's a bloody useless idea, too fragile to cope with reality.

These attempts to shift the blame from brexiters to Remainers (and also the BBC and the EU) demonstrate clearly the moral cowardice of those brexiters without the decency and character to even take responsibility for their own actions. "It's not us who are responsible for the disaster that is brexit," they squeal pathetically, "It's the Remainers for not supporting us."

What's even more pathetic is brexiters can't actually say what support they want, other than Remainers to shut up.

So what it comes down to is that brexiters claim brexit will fail without Remain support, but they have no clue what support they want other than silence from the opposition. I assume this is because they are bloody stupid, but there is a remote possibility it's because they'll then be able to blame Remainers for not doing whatever brexiters think they should have done with hindsight. Just to make sure that any disaster that follows brexit can't be brexiters' fault.

...and people seem surprised that I have a low opinion of brexiters.
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
User avatar
FourPart
Posts: 6437
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:12 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by FourPart »

The support I would expect of myself if I had been on the losing side. To accept the result graciously, accept it to be the will of the people & move on. I was given the opportunity to have my say. I took that opportunity by placing my ballot. As it happened I was in the majority (in this area, quite a sizeable majority). Those who chose not to vote have no right to pass judgement either way (as with any election), but once the result is declared, that should be it. Accept it & move on towards the common good.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

FourPart;1508399 wrote: The support I would expect of myself if I had been on the losing side. To accept the result graciously, accept it to be the will of the people & move on. I was given the opportunity to have my say. I took that opportunity by placing my ballot. As it happened I was in the majority (in this area, quite a sizeable majority). Those who chose not to vote have no right to pass judgement either way (as with any election), but once the result is declared, that should be it. Accept it & move on towards the common good.


This wasn't an election, with an electiuon you can do choose someone else next time. This was a referendum it was advosory not mandatory and I'm sick fed up with brexiteers telling us we have no choise but to just swallow it. Leaving the eu will have a catastophic effect on the future of this country to say we must make the best of it is irritating in the extreme. Maybe once ireland and scotland vote to leave the UK it might sink in.

It wasn't the will of the people it was the will of those who actually voted another referendumk would see non voters out in droves and those whoi voted to leave as a protest vote will change their minds give them maybe two or so years from now when inflation is on double figures and it dawns on them that life on the dole in tory england is no joke. The irony is that those areas that voted to leave were the veryb ones that denefited most from th eu development fund if left to westminster the north would be grim indeed.
Clodhopper
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:11 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Clodhopper »

FourPart;1508399 wrote: The support I would expect of myself if I had been on the losing side. To accept the result graciously, accept it to be the will of the people & move on. I was given the opportunity to have my say. I took that opportunity by placing my ballot. As it happened I was in the majority (in this area, quite a sizeable majority). Those who chose not to vote have no right to pass judgement either way (as with any election), but once the result is declared, that should be it. Accept it & move on towards the common good.


Forget reasonable doubt, can anyone give me any reason to support brexit based on the virtues of brexit, or any way I can actively support it rather than just stop upsetting the delicate sensibilities of those who voted for this stupidity?

Accepting the result is not support of brexit. I'm still waiting for an indication of how I support brexit. Not shut up, not go neutral, actively support.

I think you'll have to get used to disappointment. It's going to be a big part of your future whether brexit happens or not unless you are one of the Don Quixotes saying any price is worth paying for freeeeeeedom! (It's a windmill...)

Now we have a general election. It will be very interesting to see what happens. Given the tiny margin of victory in the referendum, it seems likely it is going to depend on those who didn't vote in that, but are motivated either way to vote brexit or Remain in the election.

Lib Dems seem the only option for Remainers. Does that mean we'll end with a Tory, UKIP and Lib Dem Parliament?
The crowd: "Yes! We are all individuals!"

Lone voice: "I'm not."
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Bruv »

I wonder what would happen if a party could be rapidly formed as the "Stay in Europe Party" ?

It could be a coalition and a party mixture or perhaps a single party with a leader that has the cojones to make such a stand.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

Bruv;1508512 wrote: I wonder what would happen if a party could be rapidly formed as the "Stay in Europe Party" ?

It could be a coalition and a party mixture or perhaps a single party with a leader that has the cojones to make such a stand.


Stay in europe stop privatising the NHS those two things alone would gather a lot of support. Trouble is the nright wing are winning the debate on the NHS people are staring to think we can't affiord it because we really need trident.
User avatar
Bryn Mawr
Posts: 15826
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:54 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1508523 wrote: Stay in europe stop privatising the NHS those two things alone would gather a lot of support. Trouble is the nright wing are winning the debate on the NHS people are staring to think we can't affiord it because we really need trident.


Excuse me whilst I say something rude - very rude :-(
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

Don't worry we're in safe hands.

Theresa May would fire UK’s nuclear weapons as a ‘first strike’, says Defence Secretary Michael Fallon | The Independent
Bruv
Posts: 12181
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:05 pm

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by Bruv »

That sort of statement is just to embarrass Corbyn, every future interviews will pose the question of where he stands on the subject and he will look flustered and indecisive.....very very clever tactic.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Tory MP's have the right priorities

Post by gmc »

It's something we need a real duscussion on mad only works if both protagonists are sane. I can't see china sitting on theirn hands if trump muses nukes on korea. The last time the US ignored china's attitide when it came to korea didn't go so well.

Return to “United Kingdom”