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gmc
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Post by gmc »

Martin McGuinness says Brexit would be cue for a poll on reunification of Ireland | Politics | The National

Mr McGuinness added: “Ireland’s place north and south is in Europe and leading change in Europe.

“If Britain votes to leave the European Union then that could have huge implications for the entire island of Ireland and, given all the predictions, would run counter to the democratic wishes of the Irish people.

“If there is a vote in Britain to leave the EU there is a democratic imperative to provide Irish citizens with the right to vote in a border poll to end partition and retain a role in the EU.”


Oh boy as if they needed another reason to fight.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1493633 wrote: Martin McGuinness says Brexit would be cue for a poll on reunification of Ireland | Politics | The National



Oh boy as if they needed another reason to fight.


Rather than a reason to fight it could be the outside issue that unites them.
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Post by gmc »

Bryn Mawr;1493638 wrote: Rather than a reason to fight it could be the outside issue that unites them.


I can't see the unionists opting to leave the UK no matter how much they like the EU. The religious differences are still there.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1493643 wrote: I can't see the unionists opting to leave the UK no matter how much they like the EU. The religious differences are still there.


As you say, it could be interesting :-)
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Post by FourPart »

Just because one is part of the EU & the other is not doesn't mean they can't keep open borders between the 2 countries. Even before we joined the Common Market (as was) that much existed even then. The idea that the Irish should be entitled to a vote about the borders question makes as much sense as holding a vote as to whether the Falklands should remain part of the UK. On it's own the result would be overwhelming to do so. However, if the Argentines were included in the vote, then the result would be totally different. If the Northern Irish want to hold a referendum as to whether they wish to remain part of the UK or to become unified with Eire, fine. I've no problem with that, but for the Irish to demand a vote on it is no different to an enforced annexing / occupation.
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FourPart;1493683 wrote: Just because one is part of the EU & the other is not doesn't mean they can't keep open borders between the 2 countries. Even before we joined the Common Market (as was) that much existed even then. The idea that the Irish should be entitled to a vote about the borders question makes as much sense as holding a vote as to whether the Falklands should remain part of the UK. On it's own the result would be overwhelming to do so. However, if the Argentines were included in the vote, then the result would be totally different. If the Northern Irish want to hold a referendum as to whether they wish to remain part of the UK or to become unified with Eire, fine. I've no problem with that, but for the Irish to demand a vote on it is no different to an enforced annexing / occupation.


you do know Martin McGuinness Is a politician in Northern Ireland don't you?
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Post by FourPart »

gmc;1493689 wrote: you do know Martin McGuinness Is a politician in Northern Ireland don't you?
Of course - for Sinn Fein (the political wing of the IRA) - he is an Irish Republican. His agenda is that of an Irish Republic.
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FourPart;1493696 wrote: Of course - for Sinn Fein (the political wing of the IRA) - he is an Irish Republican. His agenda is that of an Irish Republic.


This is what puzzled me. he may be a republican but he's still a northern irish politician.

If the Northern Irish want to hold a referendum as to whether they wish to remain part of the UK or to become unified with Eire, fine. I've no problem with that, but for the Irish to demand a vote on it is no different to an enforced annexing / occupation.




It wouldn't be eire asking for a referendum it would be the northern irish except with the religious element coming in to it I can't see it being a peaceful discussion.
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Post by FourPart »

gmc;1493716 wrote: This is what puzzled me. he may be a republican but he's still a northern irish politician.

It wouldn't be eire asking for a referendum it would be the northern irish except with the religious element coming in to it I can't see it being a peaceful discussion.


Northern Ireland had sucha a referendum in 1973. It voted overwhelmingly to remain as part of the U.K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_ ... ndum,_1973
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1493777 wrote: Northern Ireland had sucha a referendum in 1973. It voted overwhelmingly to remain as part of the U.K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_ ... ndum,_1973


Times change - that was during the Troubles. In today's climate of power sharing there could well be a different answer.
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Post by gmc »

Bryn Mawr;1493786 wrote: Times change - that was during the Troubles. In today's climate of power sharing there could well be a different answer.


I doubt it the religious divide is very real and isn't going away any time soon.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1493794 wrote: I doubt it the religious divide is very real and isn't going away any time soon.


But would it be a matter of life or death now? If not, and I see discriminatory legislation on religious grounds as unlikely, then economic considerations could well be seen as more important (We already share the North with the B**Ds, sharing the whole of Ireland with them doesn't mean I have to talk to them - or words along those lines).

The big thing is whether the paramilitary allegiances have been carried down into the next generation - if so it would be more like "My dad fought to keep us British and I'm not giving the six counties over to those B**Ds now".

Very simplistic I know but I've always believed that in these matters the pound in your pocket talks and, economically, we're already seeing a lot of movement across the border.
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Post by gmc »

Bryn Mawr;1493797 wrote: But would it be a matter of life or death now? If not, and I see discriminatory legislation on religious grounds as unlikely, then economic considerations could well be seen as more important (We already share the North with the B**Ds, sharing the whole of Ireland with them doesn't mean I have to talk to them - or words along those lines).

The big thing is whether the paramilitary allegiances have been carried down into the next generation - if so it would be more like "My dad fought to keep us British and I'm not giving the six counties over to those B**Ds now".

Very simplistic I know but I've always believed that in these matters the pound in your pocket talks and, economically, we're already seeing a lot of movement across the border.


As it happens I could give you chaoter and verse on why a protestrant would want nothing to do with eire and why the papes think the proddies are all going to hell but I won't. While I can put the argiments and understand the passion behind them I find the nwhole thing ridiculous.

Religious bigotry isn't rational because religion isn't rational I don't think it will ever end until we can get religious groups to accept that their religion is something that can be criticised and that blasphemy is not a crime and criticising relgion is perfectly acceptable and most of all end the divide created by religious schools.

Very simplistic I know but I've always believed that in these matters the pound in your pocket talks and, economically, we're already seeing a lot of movement across the border.




If trade and shared culture made that much of a difference there would be no war because no one really benefits from it except those who forment it.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1493804 wrote: As it happens I could give you chaoter and verse on why a protestrant would want nothing to do with eire and why the papes think the proddies are all going to hell but I won't. While I can put the argiments and understand the passion behind them I find the nwhole thing ridiculous.

Religious bigotry isn't rational because religion isn't rational I don't think it will ever end until we can get religious groups to accept that their religion is something that can be criticised and that blasphemy is not a crime and criticising relgion is perfectly acceptable and most of all end the divide created by religious schools.



If trade and shared culture made that much of a difference there would be no war because no one really benefits from it except those who forment it.


All I can say is, who would have imagined Ian Paisley sitting down with Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams and then saying what nice people they were?
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Bryn Mawr;1493808 wrote: All I can say is, who would have imagined Ian Paisley sitting down with Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams and then saying what nice people they were?


True but seemed to take a long time for them to acquire the ability to see beyond their religion. It's a grass roots thing that the two religions can't stop stirring up they both teach fear and contempt for the other. Respect the other religion but they're still going to hell - it may souind ridiculous but if you are one of the faithful that is what you believe so how do you get people past that be they catholic, protestant or nowadays muslim as well when the leader won't lt them mix for fear of contamination?
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1493810 wrote: True but seemed to take a long time for them to acquire the ability to see beyond their religion. It's a grass roots thing that the two religions can't stop stirring up they both teach fear and contempt for the other. Respect the other religion but they're still going to hell - it may souind ridiculous but if you are one of the faithful that is what you believe so how do you get people past that be they catholic, protestant or nowadays muslim as well when the leader won't lt them mix for fear of contamination?


Given that it's dependent on brexit I'm guessing that we'll never get to see anyway.
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Bryn Mawr;1493813 wrote: Given that it's dependent on brexit I'm guessing that we'll never get to see anyway.


Not so sure about that I find it hard to decide which way it will go. i suspect people will vote to leave for reasons nothing to do with the economics of the issue.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1493820 wrote: Not so sure about that I find it hard to decide which way it will go. i suspect people will vote to leave for reasons nothing to do with the economics of the issue.


Having been down at the boat club all weekend I'm getting depressed at how many members are vehemently in favour of leaving.
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Post by spot »

It's dreadfully emotive, short-sighted, uninformed, biased and wrong-headed but it's going to happen as far as I can foretell.

I'll put money on Trump too.
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Post by gmc »

Bryn Mawr;1493840 wrote: Having been down at the boat club all weekend I'm getting depressed at how many members are vehemently in favour of leaving.


Know what you mean a few times I've listened to someone having a rant and then asked why they think whatever it was they were ranting about has anything to do with europe. Health and safety seems to be the most popular to complain about for reasons which elude me.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

gmc;1493842 wrote: Know what you mean a few times I've listened to someone having a rant and then asked why they think whatever it was they were ranting about has anything to do with europe. Health and safety seems to be the most popular to complain about for reasons which elude me.


One of the issues was the state of the NHS - when I said that it was our own government that was shafting it not the EU he was quite put out.
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Post by FourPart »

I get the feeling that no matter which way the referendum goes, it's going to be too close to call to be a sufficiently definitive decision. Should it be a minimal predefined majority in order to change the Status Quo - or the other way round? A 51 / 49 is not going to settle any unrest. Just look at the Scottish question They had a pretty convincing majority to remain as part of the U.K., yet they're still looking towards another referendum.
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1493944 wrote: A 51 / 49 is not going to settle any unrest.
It may not, but it will definitely result in the low-margin Remain or Leave decision being implemented and the EU would definitely not let us back in after leaving.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
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Post by G#Gill »

From what I can gather, the European Union is slowly but surely falling apart ! I could be wrong, perhaps somebody can reassure me?
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Post by spot »

What would you compare it to as an instance of health?

My own impression is that the destabilization of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria has led to a level of migration into Europe unprecedented for perhaps the last thousand years. I think that's accurate - if anyone can cite a precedent now's a good time to show it off. The destabilization has been primarily the result of the US rogering Muslim countries without consent but Europe has been left holding the baby.

Whether this could be described as "the European Union slowly but surely falling apart" I'm not sure. I think it shows how very resilient the European Union project has become. Time will tell.

The BBC today quotes Leave campaigner Kate Hoey: "It is in Germany's interests for the UK to stay in. That doesn't mean that it is in the UK's interests". Indeed it doesn't, but no more does it mean that it's against the UK's interests. If that's the nearest the Leave Campaign has to offer by way of argument today then it's a tad feeble.
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Post by G#Gill »

Of course it's not the only argument that the 'Leave' group are offering. There are numerous arguments for leaving the European Union, that have been mentioned and argued about on other threads.

I've just been watching "Question Time" on BBC TV, and an interesting question came from the Cardiff audience - "If we were not actually in the EU, but had the interest to join, would we actually join the EU when we find out that there have been no audited accounts presented for examination by the member countries, probably since the start of the EU. Where does the money actually go that countries pay to Brussels and where's the proof that this money is being handled correctly and honestly, and fairly ?" Rather thought provoking question. Would anybody want to risk such a ruling unelected group of money-grabbing 'bosses' dealing with our money, having discovered all that knowledge ?
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I agree it's not the only argument that the Leave group are offering. I simply mentioned how odd it was that Kate Huey even thought it was an argument at all, since it implied nothing either for or against Leaving. Her observation was just a portentous waste of breath intended on the surface to sound meaningful, yet it was the only Leave argument considered important enough today to make it into a BBC news item.

I'm baffled that you find the audit question interesting, or even meaningful. I'm not interested in the auditability of the systems, I find it far more likely that the European Union - and the United Kingdom, come to that - is overall too complex to audit than that the "money-grabbing bosses", as you prejudicially refer to them, are corruptly skimming a take. I'm far more interested in the results they achieve, politically and socially and economically. There are laws against corrupt practice, it's one of the reasons we pay salaries to the police.
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spot;1496538 wrote: I agree it's not the only argument that the Leave group are offering. I simply mentioned how odd it was that Kate Huey even thought it was an argument at all, since it implied nothing either for or against Leaving. Her observation was just a portentous waste of breath intended on the surface to sound meaningful, yet it was the only Leave argument considered important enough today to make it into a BBC news item.

I'm baffled that you find the audit question interesting, or even meaningful. I'm not interested in the auditability of the systems, I find it far more likely that the European Union - and the United Kingdom, come to that - is overall too complex to audit than that the "money-grabbing bosses", as you prejudicially refer to them, are corruptly skimming a take. I'm far more interested in the results they achieve, politically and socially and economically. There are laws against corrupt practice, it's one of the reasons we pay salaries to the police.


Oh spot you don't arf sound pompous ! I don't think I mentioned anything about "skimming a take" as you put it, but seein' as 'ow yer mentioned it, p'raps they could be doin' just that ! There is no way that it can be checked up on, without an army of top accountants and weeks, even months of hard work.



Gawd, look at the time ! I thought me blinds were comin' down ! Night night all !
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G#Gill;1496541 wrote: I don't think I mentioned anything about "skimming a take" as you put it


How else can one interpret "a ruling unelected group of money-grabbing 'bosses' dealing with our money" if not as corrupt skimmers?

Corruption is like Sepp Blatter, Jerome Valcke & Markus Kattner 'awarded themselves £55m'.

FIFA is football, not the European Union. I expect people confuse the two. One's based in Switzerland and enables rampant thievery, the other isn't and doesn't.

If, on the other hand, you just mean the EU's money-grabbing bosses collect and spend taxes, we've had that sort in England since Celtic times - they're called Civil Servants and they're not thieves. Collecting and spending taxes is what we pay them to do, it's their job. It's why you have a motorway system and clean food. I remember grocers weighing flour from open sacks into brown paper bags while the queue lengthened and the flies swarmed, before the country joined the EU and discovered basic hygiene - even though we still haven't collectively understood why a bidet might be preferable to Andrex.
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The difference is that what the Civil Servants do, and what they are paid, is determined by the Government, who are an elected body. The EU Bureaucracy is self appointed who not only determine their own pay scales but also determine what their tax rate will be & they aren't accountable to anyone but themselves.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

FourPart;1496597 wrote: The difference is that what the Civil Servants do, and what they are paid, is determined by the Government, who are an elected body. The EU Bureaucracy is self appointed who not only determine their own pay scales but also determine what their tax rate will be & they aren't accountable to anyone but themselves.


That might have been true thirty years ago but not now :-

Political–Bureaucratic Accountability in the EU Commission: Modernising the Executive

The basic accountability system of the European Commission has changed over the last decade. New structures and rules with a range of ex ante constraints and ex post incentives have combined to provide a system for more control and accountability in and over the Commission.
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FourPart;1496597 wrote: The difference is that what the Civil Servants do, and what they are paid, is determined by the Government, who are an elected body. The EU Bureaucracy is self appointed who not only determine their own pay scales but also determine what their tax rate will be & they aren't accountable to anyone but themselves.


It's difficult to negate such a wide assertion - the problem is called "proving a negative" and it's commonplace in Internet forum discussions - but I'll tell you what: if you name any single EU Bureaucrat you think qualifies for your description, I'll demonstrate that this specific individual doesn't determine her own pay scale, doesn't determine her own tax rate and is accountable to others.

People who do determine their own pay scale, do determine their own tax rate and aren't accountable to others are the owner-directors of private limited companies, not bureaucrats.
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Post by FourPart »

10,000 European Union officials better paid than David Cameron - Telegraph

Who determines the pay scale?

Who determines the special tax rates?

Who determines the top ups?

Who determines the perks?

To whom are they accountable? Certainly not the electorate.
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Post by Vera »

This is intriguing. But what do you think how Brexit would influence property prices in Dublin? According to https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons- ... houseprice and https://tranio.com/ London and Dublin have the same problem today: a lack of homes. It means that property prices will not bring down in the near future. "With an average rent of €902 ($1,009) per month, the U.K. has the highest average rent by a mile. Second position is taken by Ireland, but with a rental figure of €679 ($760), the average Irish renter still has €223 ($249) less to find every month." (from here Two Maps Show Where Europeans Spend the Most on Rent - CityLab)
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Post by spot »

FourPart;1496685 wrote: 10,000 European Union officials better paid than David Cameron - Telegraph

Who determines the pay scale?

Who determines the special tax rates?

Who determines the top ups?

Who determines the perks?

To whom are they accountable? Certainly not the electorate.
What could an answer to your question look like? Try to imagine an accurate reply - I can't. How many books would it fill? How many different answers in different circumstances, all of which would need listing before the answer was correct?

I did offer to find out for a named individual, if you name an individual. As a general question it's unanswerable. As a specific question it's a possibility. Tell me who to look at and we can make progress. Then you can name another, and another, and another, and we can slowly build the full answer to the question you posed if we ever get that far. What we can't do is start where you started.

Why on earth pick on just European Union officials? I can guarantee there are over 10,000 company directors in the UK alone who earn more than David Cameron. Why should 10,000 European Union officials not earn more than him too?

Name one, and we'll find out in a specific case.
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